KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)

[gnuarm]

I have some old software that works under Win 10, but just barely.  The File Open dialog is really messed up and many other features of the UI are crippled. 

This is an interesting statement because Microsoft intentionally has kept the file open dialogs exactly the same across Windows versions depending on the API you use. So on Windows 10, programs using the Windows 98 era API will get the 98 era file dialog which is awful. Getting the Vista+ dialog requires using the Vista+ API.

I have no idea what you mean by "exactly the same across Windows versions".  The bottom line is the program has worked under every version of Windows from 95 up to at least Vista.  I think it started crapping out on Win 8, but I'm not certain (I don't have a copy of Win 7 running).  I know it works poorly under Win 10.  So where is the preservation???  When you talk about using an API, you are talking about the application using the API.  I don't think the program has changed anything.  The variable is the version of Windows.

Yes, Microsoft has elected to "box in" the file dialogs to APIs. Depending on which API you use, that's the generation of file dialog you get even on Windows 10 which is using the Vista

This page roughly shows you the three generation if dialogs https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/16678/Vista-Goodies-in-C-Using-the-New-Vista-File-Dialog

Your old programs should be using the first, Windows 2000 dialog. It works the same as it always have.

If that is true, why does my program work correctly under WinMe, W2K, WinXP, WinVista... but not under Win10?

Ok, so you agree that MS does not support older program interfaces and trashes some features intentionally.

Yes, some features that are better off dead. Nobody used those horrible CHM interfaces.

Of course they did.  That's why so many old programs no longer have help.  It was used extensively and now unsupported.  I don't know why you call them "horrible".  I don't care about the programming if that's what you mean.  To the user it is much, much better than having no help at all.  There's no longer even a manual you can find on the web.

[ataradov]

Of course they did.  That's why so many old programs no longer have help.  It was used extensively and now unsupported.

There are a lot of independent CHM viewers.

Not supporting it menas that new applications would not use it as a help format. For old applications - just use a standalone viewer.

[PlainName]

Nobody used those horrible CHM interfaces.

What? You cannot be serious! The only local help I seem to have all come as either .hlp or .chm (mostly the latter). And a quick check shows 1955 of them on the filesystem.

They may be horrible to you, but as the only source of help info they are still jolly useful.

[PlainName]

Not supporting it menas that new applications would not use it as a help format.

Pah! 27 new ones to my system in 2021 used it.

[ataradov]

Pah! 27 new ones to my system in 2021 used it.

But do they come from 2021 software? Of course you will always have some in any year if you keep installing software from 1995.

[PlainName]

Latest one was started in 2019.

Edit: and I  would like it known that I really REALLY very seriously HATE bloody online webpages as help, which seems to be the trend you're referring to.

[alexanderbrevig]

I just had to make a Gruvbox theme!

You can use it too: https://github.com/AlexanderBrevig/kicad-gruvbox-theme 

[0xFFF0]

How to overcome the the installation lock on Windows 7? 

[ElektroQuark]

Opening CHM files natively on Windows 10 and 11:

CLICK!

[SiliconWizard]

How to overcome the the installation lock on Windows 7?

Yep, I just tried before reading the latest posts here, and noted Windows 7 was not supported anymore. How sweet. =)

Then, in case it was just an "installation lock" as you said, I tried extracting the files directly. You can open the installer exe as an archive, with 7-zip for instance, and extract the files in a directory. You get the same structure as a Kicad install.

But, as one could suspect, Kicad doesn't start. If they "locked" this in the installer, that was for a good reason: the executables were built for Windows 8.1 minimum. So the executables require some DLLs that don't exist on Windows 7. Digging a bit deeper, it seems to mainly (not quite sure it's the only cause though) come from the fact they are linked against Python 3.9, which itself doesn't support Windows 7 anymore.

I don't know yet if it's possible to build Kicad 6 ourselves (using MSYS2 for instance) for Windows 7. But meanwhile, we're screwed.

[PlainName]

Python 3.9, which itself doesn't support Windows 7 anymore.

I haven't looked into that yet, but my StreamDeck doesn't support Windows 7 in that it won't install, and if you extract the files it won't run because some DLLs are missing. The trick there is to shove fake DLLs in the install directory, and it runs. The only purpose of those DLLs is to answer the question "is this W8.1+?". The DLLs do nothing other than fake that. Maybe Python9 is similar.

[SiliconWizard]

Python 3.9, which itself doesn't support Windows 7 anymore.

I haven't looked into that yet, but my StreamDeck doesn't support Windows 7 in that it won't install, and if you extract the files it won't run because some DLLs are missing. The trick there is to shove fake DLLs in the install directory, and it runs. The only purpose of those DLLs is to answer the question "is this W8.1+?". The DLLs do nothing other than fake that. Maybe Python9 is similar.

Nah, unfortunately. This is a bunch of api-ms-win* DLLs here that were introduced in Win 8 or 8.1 and I don't think you can fake them to get any useful result. They contain a lot of system functions.
If someone manages to "fake" that, that would make a number of applications usable in Win 7, such as Python 3.9+, Vivado, KiCad, and many others...

Now I tried to build KiCad from source, that can be done on Windows with MSYS2, and would thus yield executables working on Win 7. This is documented there: https://dev-docs.kicad.org/en/build/windows-msys2/ , and I am used to building cross-platform apps using MSYS2, so no problem with that. So far, it won't build though, because KiCad 6 apparently requires the very latest version of wxWindows (3.1.5 IIRC), while MSYS still has wxWindows 3.0... so we'll have to wait till MSYS2 updates wxWindows. And then I'll keep you posted. If it does build, that will be a solution.

[nctnico]

Building wxwidgets from source is not that difficult on Windows. Though I find it a bit ignorant that Kicad binaries don't work on Windows 7 out of the box. Most of the professional CAD software does because a lot of places still use Windows 7.

[Karel]

Now I tried to build KiCad from source, that can be done on Windows with MSYS2, and would thus yield executables working on Win 7. This is documented there: https://dev-docs.kicad.org/en/build/windows-msys2/ , and I am used to building cross-platform apps using MSYS2, so no problem with that. So far, it won't build though, because KiCad 6 apparently requires the very latest version of wxWindows (3.1.5 IIRC), while MSYS still has wxWindows 3.0... so we'll have to wait till MSYS2 updates wxWindows. And then I'll keep you posted. If it does build, that will be a solution.

Wouldn't it be easier to use the Linux version of KiCad?
You'll have to dual-boot with windows 7 which is not ideal, but still saves you much time,
also because I expect monthly updates for KiCad V6.

[PlainName]

You'll have to dual-boot with windows 7 which is not ideal

Dead loss. I often fire up Altium briefly to check something, and if that means saving and closing everything, restarting with a differerent OS then 2 mins later do the reverse... Not going to happen.

[Karel]

You'll have to dual-boot with windows 7 which is not ideal

Dead loss. I often fire up Altium briefly to check something, and if that means saving and closing everything, restarting with a differerent OS then 2 mins later do the reverse... Not going to happen.

In that case, what about running altium in VMware on Linux? You'll have to pay $249 but that's one time only.

[nctnico]

You'll have to dual-boot with windows 7 which is not ideal

Dead loss. I often fire up Altium briefly to check something, and if that means saving and closing everything, restarting with a differerent OS then 2 mins later do the reverse... Not going to happen.

In that case, what about running altium in VMware on Linux? You'll have to pay $249 but that's one time only.

That is another option. The free VMWare allows for only one VM but that could be a limitation because I recon you'll want to run more VMs simultaneously.

[PlainName]

What's the $249 for?

Main problem for me is I have a significant investment in Windows apps, many of which are not functionally replicated on Linux. I am not about to through all that away just to try Kicad 6. And without trying the possibility that I might find it useful (and perhaps review my priorities) is pretty remote, so it's a bit of a  circle there.

[PlainName]

The free VMWare allows for only one VM

I have a not-too-recent Workstation license, but prefer VirtualBox, particularly for host integration.

[Cerebus]

You'll have to dual-boot with windows 7 which is not ideal

Dead loss. I often fire up Altium briefly to check something, and if that means saving and closing everything, restarting with a differerent OS then 2 mins later do the reverse... Not going to happen.

In that case, what about running altium in VMware on Linux? You'll have to pay $249 but that's one time only.

Why, if one was a Linux user, would one choose a proprietary hypervisor when there are perfectly good free ones? The only reason to be running VMware workstation under Linux that I can see is if one wanted to maintain integration/compatibility with a VMware ESXi estate, or if VMware is all that one understood how to 'drive'. (I've nothing against VMware itself, I use VMware fusion myself on macOS, but I do have ESXi machines to integrate with.)

[Karel]

What's the $249 for?

It's the price of a VMware Workstation Pro license.

[Karel]

Why, if one was a Linux user, would one choose a proprietary hypervisor when there are perfectly good free ones?

Because, from what I understood from some other people here who already tried it,
altium (the layout part) doesn't seem to work reliable/stable with other hypervisors on Linux.

[madires]

I haven't tested Altium. However, for software requiring 3D capabilties you have to make sure that 3D is set up properly on the linux host, that 3D support is enabled for the VM and that the VM specific driver package is installed. Alternatively - if supported - you can also try GPU pass-through.

[ebastler]

Wouldn't it be easier to use the Linux version of KiCad?
You'll have to dual-boot with windows 7 which is not ideal [...]

If one is mainly working in a Windows environment, why not upgrade from Win 7 to Win 10? Doesn't need more hardware resources, receives regular updates and security patches, license is free (using the Win 7 key), and should run whatever Windows software one uses besides KiCad.

Privacy controls have much improved in recent Win 10 versions, by the way. It actively asks during the installation process whether you want various "services" (location, ad personalization...) or not. The only nuisance I am aware of is that Microsoft really wants you to create an online Microsoft account and use it as the user account on your machine -- but you can still bypass that by not having an internet connection while walking through the initial Win 10 setup.

Am I missing anything else? Why would one insist on keeping Win 7?

[nctnico]

Why, if one was a Linux user, would one choose a proprietary hypervisor when there are perfectly good free ones? The only reason to be running VMware workstation under Linux that I can see is if one wanted to maintain integration/compatibility with a VMware ESXi estate, or if VMware is all that one understood how to 'drive'. (I've nothing against VMware itself, I use VMware fusion myself on macOS, but I do have ESXi machines to integrate with.)

This is a bit off-topic but what VMware can and Virtualbox does not is being able to run 3D accelleration in a virtual machine. Or better put: all my attempts to use 3D (like OpenGl) in Virtualbox has failed where with VMware it worked right out of the box.