KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)

[nctnico]

So, I looked up in the source code to locate this check, and got the bottom line. It's only, and entirely due to Python. From comments in the source code:

// Python 3.8 switched to Windows 8+ API, we do not support Windows 7 and will not
    // attempt to hack around it. A normal user will never get here because the Python DLL
    // is missing dependencies - and because it is not dynamically loaded, KiCad will not even
    // start without patching Python or its WinAPI dependency. This is just to create a nag dialog
    // for those who run patched Python and prevent them from submitting bug reports.

So it's nothing related to KiCad source itself, or even wxWidgets, but Python only. There's actually another app I use that requires Python, and the same problem - latest versions don't run anymore.

Now, under MSYS2, Python is at 3.9.7, and it works - so the MSYS2 Python package is built accordingly. This is why KiCad builds without an issue and has no problem launching... But still exits when it initializes Python. The reason is that I try running the built KiCad outside of MSYS2. One easy workaround is to run KiCad from within MSYS2 - actually, I noticed MSYS2 has a package for KiCad 6.0.0, so it should work there.

But I'd like to make it independent of MSYS2. And, I don't much care about Python scripting anyway in KiCad, so I'm currently re-building without this. Of course, it should also be possible to build Python 3.9 so that it runs on Win 7, and use that. Might look into that later.

I'll keep you posted... I guess a few people at least may be interested. And if not, at least you have the bottom line.

Maybe you can get Kicad to make your binaries -if you get that far- available on their website. I'm sure you'll be doing a lot of people a favour. Not supporting Windows7 is way too soon.

[madires]

Based on https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/faq/extended-security-updates the ESU for WIndows 7 ends:
- January 10, 2023 for Professional, Enterprise, and Professional for Embedded Systems
- October 10, 2023 for Windows Embedded Standard 7
- October 8, 2024 for Windows Embedded POSReady 7

[LazyJack]

How about creating a new topic on whining about Windows 7 support by KiCAD and staying with actual V6.0 news in this topic.

[PlainName]

Isn't W7 support actual Kicad 6.0 news?

[Cerebus]

How about creating a new topic on whining about Windows 7 support by KiCAD and staying with actual V6.0 news in this topic.

In what way is Windows 7 support, or rather lack of it, in V6.0 not news related to V6.0? And characterising it as "whining" is not helpful, but rather smacks of uncritical fanboyism.

Windows support is of no interest to me, I'm a macOS/Linux/Unix boy, but that doesn't mean that I regard it as unimportant or unworthy of discussion. After all, users of lesser operating systems need all the help they can get. 

[SiliconWizard]

Just a bit of follow-up. (Regardless of those saying it is "whining"... meanwhile, we are trying to find solutions rather than just "whine", while people saying we "whine" are themselves, in fact, just whining about us discussing this.  )

* While up to KiCad 5, it was possible to configure builds without Python scripting support (it was just a matter of a couple build options), they have apparently stopped making it optional. The only option you have now is to disable wxPython (giving you wxWidgets from within your Python scripts), but not Python scripting itself. It's probably now considered a mandatory part of KiCad.

* I did manage to build a fully working KiCad for Windows 7, including Pcbnew which was the hardest part - this is the one that absolutely requires Python, the other KiCad executables can run without it. But so far, it's using Python 3.9 from MSYS2 and I need to set a couple environment variables, which is cumbersome. I am currently looking at the code in 'python_scripting.cpp' to better understand how KiCad deals with it, and also I'm looking at how to build Python 3.9+ so it can be used outside of MSYS2, and ideally put in KiCad's install directory, as it's normally done when you install it with the official installers, and which should not require playing with environment variables.

Still some work to do, but getting there.

[SiliconWizard]

The 3D model references all need to be reselected too, otherwise nothing will show up in the 3D view of the PCB, but that seems to be purely cosmetic. The symbols in the schematic can be updated in bulk with only a few clicks but I can't see how to update all 3D models in one go.

Yeah. After looking at this, it's because the name of the environment variables for the various paths, including 3D models, have changed. So any existing design made with an older version will suffer here.
I think they could have done something to ease the migration...

[thinkfat]

The 3D model references all need to be reselected too, otherwise nothing will show up in the 3D view of the PCB, but that seems to be purely cosmetic. The symbols in the schematic can be updated in bulk with only a few clicks but I can't see how to update all 3D models in one go.

Yeah. After looking at this, it's because the name of the environment variables for the various paths, including 3D models, have changed. So any existing design made with an older version will suffer here.
I think they could have done something to ease the migration...

You can fix that in bulk by just setting KISYS3DMOD to whatever KICAD6_3DMODEL_DIR points to.

[John B]

I added a new directory alias so all the KISYS3DMOD will work now. But am I right in thinking the old KiCad 5 .mod files wont work in 6? They are .wrl instead. The model doesn't work when I select the old models from KiCad 5. Some of them are missing in 6.

[tycz]

* I did manage to build a fully working KiCad for Windows 7, including Pcbnew which was the hardest part - this is the one that absolutely requires Python, the other KiCad executables can run without it.

Are parts of the program written in Python now, like what Eagle did with its scripting language? Or is it just the coder mentality of the devs shining through?

I never really came across a good use case for scripting in PCB CAD software. The only time I've heard of it being useful is for placing components (LED clocks are a good example). But that could be achieved by importing the component positions from a file, created in the user's favourite scripting language.

[eugene]

It sounds too easy, so there must be a reason it won't work, but how about going to www.python.org and downloading and installing 3.8 on your Win 7 machine.

[ataradov]

It sounds too easy, so there must be a reason it won't work, but how about going to www.python.org and downloading and installing 3.8 on your Win 7 machine.

That would not do anything to KiCad. They are using Python as a library for scripting. Specific version of Python is linked to the final binary, it does not use anything from the outside system.

[thinkfat]

* I did manage to build a fully working KiCad for Windows 7, including Pcbnew which was the hardest part - this is the one that absolutely requires Python, the other KiCad executables can run without it.

Are parts of the program written in Python now, like what Eagle did with its scripting language? Or is it just the coder mentality of the devs shining through?

I never really came across a good use case for scripting in PCB CAD software. The only time I've heard of it being useful is for placing components (LED clocks are a good example). But that could be achieved by importing the component positions from a file, created in the user's favourite scripting language.

Panelization, via stitching, track manipulation etc. There was a nice plugin for KiCAD 5 that did track rounding and solder mask removal for RF, I've used it frequently. If the scripting API is comprehensive, it is a great possibility to enhance the software with features that you need but are too specialized to be generally useful and are therefore unlikely to appear in any release.

[thinkfat]

I added a new directory alias so all the KISYS3DMOD will work now. But am I right in thinking the old KiCad 5 .mod files wont work in 6? They are .wrl instead. The model doesn't work when I select the old models from KiCad 5. Some of them are missing in 6.

.MOD files are old-style footprint files, not 3d models, no? Kicad still supports STEP and WRL for component models.

[woofy]

You can fix that in bulk by just setting KISYS3DMOD to whatever KICAD6_3DMODEL_DIR points to.

That has sorted it for me. Thanks.

[SiliconWizard]

So yes:

* For the 3D models, it's just a matter of adding the 'KISYS3DMOD' variable in the Path list. ("Configure Paths...") They changed a number of variable names for the paths - and prefixing them with 'KICAD6' tends to show they want to make it possible to "break" compatibility with future major versions, while forcing user to take action instead of possibly getting unintended results. It makes sense, although I prefer keeping backward compatibility as much as possible in software - but hey. Here, they are doing the same as most other EDA vendors do. Cadstar is notorious for breaking libraries at every new major version, requiring upgrading actions that are annoying - and sometimes require technical support (which they can sell... )

* Yes .step and .wrl are still supported. I don't think there is any new format used for 3D models anyway?

* For Python: yes scripting is a nice bonus. Eagle had that (although with their own language IIRC) a very long time ago already, and it was very useful. Now the choice of Python is questionable, but let's not get into that. Could be an endless debate. As to why Python decided not to support Windows 7 anymore here, just ask the team. (Just adding here, even if that's beyond the topic, that Windows 7 is STILL supported by MS. It has just become a paid support, but at least until 2023 or 2024. So in particular, some companies are bound to still use it and pay for the support. Thus, deciding to end being compatible with it is all the more questionable, and that's also for all commercial software that has ended supporting it...)

I managed to use Python 3.9.7 from MSYS2 (which works on Windows 7, but requires a lot of patches, that can be seen in the PKGBUILD file for Python - MSYS2 uses pacman, similar to Arch Linux). And, I found a way to "embed it" in KiCad's install directories to make it behave as intended while not requiring fiddling with environment variables. So now I have something fully usable. I also included the latest ngspice (36), which appears to work fine in the simulator too.

From the tests I've done so far, it seems to work perfectly fine. I'll do some more testing though, and will keep you posted. I'll probably make it accessible through a download at some point. If so, there won't be any installer (you'll have to extract it anywhere you like), and it won't come with libraries, which you'll have to download separately (the whole libraries take up 7 GB or so...)

[PlainName]

Excellent work, that man!

there won't be any installer (you'll have to extract it anywhere you like)

Might well be a bonus 

[SiliconWizard]

Oh, and I've seen that it now supports importing Cadstar and Altium? It's worth a shot, haven't tried it yet! Has anyone tried?

[Cerebus]

Oh, and I've seen that it now supports importing Cadstar and Altium? It's worth a shot, haven't tried it yet! Has anyone tried?

I haven't tried either of those, but I tried the Eagle import recently for a third party board that I had a very poor pinout guide for but could get the original Eagle files. It did a good job as far as it went (the Eagle schematic and Eagle PCB are still two separate, independent objects as far as KiCad is concerned but it served my, read-only, purposes). Last time I tried it on an older version it was a disaster.

[Bassman59]

The 3D model references all need to be reselected too, otherwise nothing will show up in the 3D view of the PCB, but that seems to be purely cosmetic. The symbols in the schematic can be updated in bulk with only a few clicks but I can't see how to update all 3D models in one go.

Yeah. After looking at this, it's because the name of the environment variables for the various paths, including 3D models, have changed. So any existing design made with an older version will suffer here.
I think they could have done something to ease the migration...

My libraries were all created before Kicad 6 (actually, some date from Kicad 4 and were moved forward to 5) so they still live (as a Subversion working copy) in the "old" standard directories. On the Mac, that was ~/Library/Application Support/kicad, though at some point they moved it to /Library/Application Support/kicad so the libraries were system-wide instead of per-user. I kept mine in the user Library.

Now with Kicad 6, the "standard" libraries provided by Kicad are in the application bundle, that is, /Applications/KiCad/KiCad.app/Contents/SharedSupport/ -- and the environment variables relevant to them are all prefixed with KICAD6_. But if you had previous environment variables, those were retained, so all of your libraries t hat refer to them do not break.

ANYWAY. The whole point of the library tables (fp-lib-table, sym-lib-table) is to map a nickname for a library to a .pretty (a footprint library) or .kicad_sym (a symbol library) somewhere in your file system. Since a library table is a per-system thing (on the Mac it's in ~/Library/Preferences/kicad) then as long as the library tables point to the actual libraries you really don't need the environment variables.

The oddball with not having EVs is that pointers to the 3D models are embedded in footprints. Now these pointers could be hard paths, which is fine if you actually standardize on file locations and you stick with just one OS. But a path on the Mac won't work in Windows, so you still need an EV to point to the base location of your 3D models. My footprints all call out the older KISYS3DMOD.  As long as KISYS3DMOD is listed in the "Configure Paths" setting, Kicad can find the models.

[SiliconWizard]

Oh, and I've seen that it now supports importing Cadstar and Altium? It's worth a shot, haven't tried it yet! Has anyone tried?

I haven't tried either of those, but I tried the Eagle import recently for a third party board that I had a very poor pinout guide for but could get the original Eagle files. It did a good job as far as it went (the Eagle schematic and Eagle PCB are still two separate, independent objects as far as KiCad is concerned but it served my, read-only, purposes). Last time I tried it on an older version it was a disaster.

Eagle import was a bit shaky in v5 - often required a lot of fixing. If it has improved, all good.

I do have a number of CadStar projects, as we were using that up to a few years ago, but I currently don't have a CadStar license... and unfortunately, all the project files I have are in binary format, whereas KiCad import only handles the ASCII format. You can export to that format from CadStar, but a license is needed... =) So, at this point, no luck here.

I tried importing a couple Altium schematics, and it appears to work reasonably well!

Now just a note regarding the schematic editor: while it got a few new nice features, there's something that is, IMO, still severely lacking: the support of TrueType fonts. The default font is OK(-ish) for PCBs, although I would also like being able to select different fonts, but for schematics, it's really annoying. It doesn't look clean on schematics, especially on screen, and even makes it hard to read at lower zoom levels. I know this was one feature listed for v6 actually - and I'm disappointed it didn't end up in it.

[Cerebus]

Now just a note regarding the schematic editor: while it got a few new nice features, there's something that is, IMO, still severely lacking: the support of TrueType fonts. The default font is OK(-ish) for PCBs, although I would also like being able to select different fonts, but for schematics, it's really annoying. It doesn't look clean on schematics, especially on screen, and even makes it hard to read at lower zoom levels. I know this was one feature listed for v6 actually - and I'm disappointed it didn't end up in it.

Somebody has done an independent add-on, but more oriented to presentation elements than replacing the Hershey fonts; native support for "any font, not just Hershey" is slated for V7.

[delfinom]

Now just a note regarding the schematic editor: while it got a few new nice features, there's something that is, IMO, still severely lacking: the support of TrueType fonts. The default font is OK(-ish) for PCBs, although I would also like being able to select different fonts, but for schematics, it's really annoying. It doesn't look clean on schematics, especially on screen, and even makes it hard to read at lower zoom levels. I know this was one feature listed for v6 actually - and I'm disappointed it didn't end up in it.

Somebody has done an independent add-on, but more oriented to presentation elements than replacing the Hershey fonts; native support for "any font, not just Hershey" is slated for V7.

Custom fonts already added to the latest 7.0 nightlies. Only 3d viewer support is lacking and some bug fixes over time needed.

[delfinom]

Now just a note regarding the schematic editor: while it got a few new nice features, there's something that is, IMO, still severely lacking: the support of TrueType fonts. The default font is OK(-ish) for PCBs, although I would also like being able to select different fonts, but for schematics, it's really annoying. It doesn't look clean on schematics, especially on screen, and even makes it hard to read at lower zoom levels. I know this was one feature listed for v6 actually - and I'm disappointed it didn't end up in it.

Go into the Preferences and udner Dispaly Options, turn on Anti-aliasing. They are off by default, I think it's ridiculous and I got some pushback on making it default at some point. The Anti-aliasing was fixed in v6 a bit with some mathematical errors in the shaders corrected that make it funky before.

Otherwise, even with the recent custom font support, those custom fonts look just as annoying without anti aliasing. Why? Because we need to translate fonts into lines and polygons which are the graphic primitives behind the rest of the system from ERC for schematics and DRC for PCBs. We can't just do SVG style rendering with these. Everything is meant to be accurately translatable between what you see and what gets printed or made into a PCB.


And about Windows 7:

For the record, I couldn't even start a new Windows 7 VM months ago to potentially be nice here with support. Microsoft has dropped all the Windows update servers for Windows 7 so I can't even obtain the Hyper-V drivers to install into the VM to get the correct behaviors.  They also nuked all downloads from their web pages for Windows 7.

[PlainName]

Microsoft has dropped all the Windows update servers for Windows 7 [...] They also nuked all downloads from their web pages for Windows 7

Yeah, all the tricks they used against the likes of Netscape, DrDOS, Go, Caldera, Stac, the multiple billion dollar fines, etc, are now turned towards its own customers in order to save face with The Interface Formerly Known As Metro. IMO you'd be doing the world a great favour if you made W7 work and dropped support (actively, of course) for W10+