Allpcb - global free shipping!

[asmi]

Free shipping activities extended to the global customer!
http://www.allpcb.com/news_detail/38-Freeshippingactivitiesextendedtothegloblcustomer.html

I'm not affiliated with them in any way - just seen the ad and thought others may find it useful.

[mrpackethead]

Yeah, its awesome. Just the fine print is that its 'free' up to 1kg on DHL to *most* countrys..    And if its more than 1kg, they are discounting the shipping by $24 per shipment.

This means you can get 10 100x100mm 2 layer pcbs, for USD$5 delivered in about a week.     Thats great value.
 

[kalel]

Does DHL charge any extra processing fees (something you have to pay when the item arrives) or is it all covered by the free postage?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Yeah, its awesome. Just the fine print is that its 'free' up to 1kg on DHL to *most* countrys..    And if its more than 1kg, they are discounting the shipping by $24 per shipment.

This means you can get 10 100x100mm 2 layer pcbs, for USD$5 delivered in about a week.     Thats great value.

And totally unsustainable...

[ataradov]

Depending on the country, does DHL charge any extra processing fees (something you have to pay when the item arrives) or is it all covered by the free postage?

DHL does not charge anything extra, but you may have to pay import duties, depending on your country.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Depending on the country, does DHL charge any extra processing fees (something you have to pay when the item arrives) or is it all covered by the free postage?

The only time couriers charge extra is where they have to process and collect customs charges - shouldn't be an issue on a $5 order, assuming it's declared correctly  (and the importer's country believes it)

[kalel]

Depending on the country, does DHL charge any extra processing fees (something you have to pay when the item arrives) or is it all covered by the free postage?

DHL does not charge anything extra, but you may have to pay import duties, depending on your country.

I mean something like customs handling and processing charges imposed by DHL services, not customs. For $5 of value, there is likely zero customs duty in most places.

[ataradov]

And totally unsustainable...

I don't get it either. I assumed they are reasonably well known, that they don't have to do stunts like this.

[mrpackethead]

And totally unsustainable...

I don't get it either. I assumed they are reasonably well known, that they don't have to do stunts like this.

Just because you think you got screwed over for about $3, when in fact you sent manufacturing files that were not to rule, and then complained about it, and they fixed things up and you only paid $5 anyway,   you think you have some kind of god given mission to go out to destroy these peoples repuations.

You've contributed NOTHING useful, to this thread.  Why so much anger?

[ataradov]

You've contributed NOTHING useful, to this thread.  Why so much anger?

What are you talking about? I'm acknowledging that they are well known and don't need to give discounts like this (clearly just giving away money).

I don't want to destroy them, I really don't care one way or the other.

PS: If you are talking about the other thread, then SAPM is bad, regardless. An I will continue to report spammers as such, that is true.

[mrpackethead]

You migth be suprized at how competitive freight is gettign out of china.  I'm a reletively small freight user out of china to the US, ( spend about 5000 a month or so ), and a 1kg parcel would cost me about $9 .     Look at the freight costs your paying on Aliexpress, its pennys! 

DHL has pretty amazing logistics in china, and if you can consolodate all your freight that is goign to one country ( say the US ) you'll get some amazingly sharp pricing.    Just like the PCB companys, the freight companys are working on super thin margins.

Dont' kick a gift horse in the mouth..   I'm sure you dont' complain at the supermarket when they put somethign you want to buy on special for a week?

[mrpackethead]

You've contributed NOTHING useful, to this thread.  Why so much anger?

What are you talking about? I'm acknowledging that they are well known and don't need to give discounts like this (clearly just giving away money).

I don't want to destroy them, I really don't care one way or the other.

PS: If you are talking about the other thread, then SAPM is bad, regardless. An I will continue to report spammers as such, that is true.

I'm talkiing about yoru consistent desire to want to trash talk them, simply bcause you had a bad experience, which was because you did'tn send gerbers that matched the design rules for the board you ordered.      Get over it!   

[ataradov]

Dont' kick a gift horse in the mouth..

I don't. I did place a number of orders to take advantage of this offer. Whether they lose money on this or not - it is up to them.

I don't trash talk them specifically, just pointing out better alternatives for some cases. I really have nothing against them, or for them.

Again, my only real problem with them is recent clumsy attempt at spam. If Erin were to create a post and state that AllPcb has free shipping, I'd be thankful. They felt the need to create fake accounts for this.

And yes, in that spam thread, I did trash talk them, because it is a good way to combat spam - just express the negative opinions next to spammers message. This way people coming from the search engines (spammers hope), get something spammers did not want. The same reason that thread was not deleted in a first place. I really do hope that spam damages their reputation.

And just to be perfectly clear - in other contexts, I would absolutely recommend them.

[phil from seattle]

I agree with the unsustainable comments. Clearly they have some arrangement with DHL but even in China, $5 won't go that far. I'm sure it is an attempt to get people to switch to them. The assumption is that customers don't like to switch vendors. Their hope is they can keep those customers that switched to take advantage of the cheap deal. This sort of thing is a common promotion.

[asmi]

I agree with the unsustainable comments. Clearly they have some arrangement with DHL but even in China, $5 won't go that far. I'm sure it is an attempt to get people to switch to them. The assumption is that customers don't like to switch vendors. Their hope is they can keep those customers that switched to take advantage of the cheap deal. This sort of thing is a common promotion.

Or maybe they just looked through their orders history and found out that $5 orders are just a tiny fraction of overall volume, so their estimation is that there will be enough big orders that they will bankroll these $5 ones? Or they suspect that people will now order more PCBs using the money that they save on not paying for shipping?
Whatever their motivation is, this is great for us customers. I used to "pool" my PCB orders such that I would order several boards at once to offset the cost of shipping, looks like I won't have to do that anymore. Even though I rarely order $5 boards now, as most of my orders are 4-layer boards, so I guess I'm the one helping to bankroll this special offer. But as long as I get what I want at the price I find acceptable, what they do with the money I pay them is none of my business.

[ataradov]

Or maybe they just looked through their orders history and found out that $5 orders are just a tiny fraction of overall volume, so their estimation is that there will be enough big orders that they will bankroll these $5 ones?

Paying $30 for shipping on a $500 order is not a big deal, I doubt shipping stopped anyone from placing a high volume order. $30 on a $5 order is a huge deal.

Or they suspect that people will now order more PCBs using the money that they save on not paying for shipping?

But they are not getting the same profit on those orders.

Whatever their motivation is, this is great for us customers. I used to "pool" my PCB orders such that I would order several boards at once to offset the cost of shipping, looks like I won't have to do that anymore.

That's a 1 month deal.

[asmi]

Paying $30 for shipping on a $500 order is not a big deal, I doubt shipping stopped anyone from placing a high volume order. $30 on a $5 order is a huge deal.

I have never heard of anybody ordering 1000's of boards in new fab as the very first order. This is not the way it works. You order prototypes, you test them and only after they are confirmed to work - you place an order for production run. So big orders are always preceded by small ones, not the other way around. And the more advanced your PCB is the more fab-dependant you become. So I see why they are doing this.

But they are not getting the same profit on those orders.

If they make $2 of profit on a single $5 boards order - that means if you order 6 boards (as shipping was ~25$), they will make $12 of profit. This might as well cover what DHL charges them for shipping (someone on this forum said that it costs about $9 per shipping order if your volume is high enough). Like someone above said, I suspect that they cut some kind of deal with DHL on that one.

That's a 1 month deal.

I didn't find any mention of that in the news item. It used to be in the previous ad where it was for US&Canada only. So I guess we will see. But even if it is one month only - still great deal for customers! You just can't possibly spin this any other way 

[ataradov]

I didn't find any mention of that in the news item.

That's interesting. I can't find any references to this now, but I distinctly remember reading this in some of their spam. It was clean up everywhere by now, of course.

If this is indeed a permanent change, then it is great. This would be a new standard for low cost prototyping.

EDIT: I guess 1 month promotion was implied by "Thanksgiving Day" for US and Canada. But you are right, it is not directly mentioned anywhere in the news.

[mrpackethead]

but I distinctly remember reading this in some of their spam.

Is it spam, if its of interest to you?  mmm.  For someone who hates allpcb you take an awful lot of notice of whats going on.

[ataradov]

but I distinctly remember reading this in some of their spam.

Is it spam, if its of interest to you?  mmm.  For someone who hates allpcb you take an awful lot of notice of whats going on.

Stop putting words into my mouth. I don't hate AllPcb, I hate all spammers universally.

They don't mark spam as such, so I kind of have no choice, but to read.

[mrpackethead]

but I distinctly remember reading this in some of their spam.

Is it spam, if its of interest to you?  mmm.  For someone who hates allpcb you take an awful lot of notice of whats going on.

Stop putting words into my mouth. I don't hate AllPcb, I hate all spammers universally.

They don't mark spam as such, so I kind of have no choice, but to read.

Can't put any words into your mouth, because too many words are falling out by themselves.  :-)

[sleemanj]

It's worth noting that only really green solder mask is silly priced with allpcb - unless you are in a hurry in which case free DHL would make a difference regardless.

For example, a typical 5x5cm 10pc Green is $5, make it red and it's $23.39, doesn't matter if you choose HK Post or DHL, price is the same.

DirtyPCBs for red would be 13.95 for a ~10 board protopack if you can tolerate using HK Post instead of DHL.   Even if you wanted exactly 10 boards rather than "about" 10 (+/- 1 in my experience) then it's still a little cheaper at Dirty if you use HK Post.

So I expect this is another factor in their equation, people come for silly cheap green and actually order red or something maybe later not realising the price isn't so silly on those and just assuming it's going to be the same everywhere.

To be honest, seeing such cheap prices gives me the social heebie jeebies, like walking through K-Mart clothes section and seeing "Made in Bangaldesh" labels on $3 shirts.

[Mr. Scram]

It's worth noting that only really green solder mask is silly priced with allpcb - unless you are in a hurry in which case free DHL would make a difference regardless.

For example, a typical 5x5cm 10pc Green is $5, make it red and it's $23.39, doesn't matter if you choose HK Post or DHL, price is the same.

DirtyPCBs for red would be 13.95 for a ~10 board protopack if you can tolerate using HK Post instead of DHL.   Even if you wanted exactly 10 boards rather than "about" 10 (+/- 1 in my experience) then it's still a little cheaper at Dirty if you use HK Post.

So I expect this is another factor in their equation, people come for silly cheap green and actually order red or something maybe later not realising the price isn't so silly on those and just assuming it's going to be the same everywhere.

To be honest, seeing such cheap prices gives me the social heebie jeebies, like walking through K-Mart clothes section and seeing "Made in Bangaldesh" labels on $3 shirts.

The problem always is that you don't know whether a middle man is eating up the difference when you pay more. I would gladly pay a buck or two on top of every shirt if I knew it would go straight to the lowest tier workers. They would live in ridiculous wealth if that happened for every shirt they make. However, I know that any money paid will never reach the people most needing it.

Sadly, brands that make a point of paying workers fairly are stupidly expensive compared to the cheap clothes. I need to eat too.

[asmi]

For example, a typical 5x5cm 10pc Green is $5, make it red and it's $23.39, doesn't matter if you choose HK Post or DHL, price is the same.

DirtyPCBs for red would be 13.95 for a ~10 board protopack if you can tolerate using HK Post instead of DHL.   Even if you wanted exactly 10 boards rather than "about" 10 (+/- 1 in my experience) then it's still a little cheaper at Dirty if you use HK Post.

It's not fair to compare DHL shipping and HK Post, as at least for me in Canada that means the difference between surely receiving the shipment in 3 business days, and maybe receiving it in 2 weeks. So there is no contest.
Allpcb never sent me less boards than I've ordered - infact in most cases I ended up getting more than I ordered.
As for color - it's at the very bottom of the list of my concerns as it's just a prototype. But if we do a fair comparison, even at $23 the boards will be cheaper than anywhere else due to free shipping.

[mrpackethead]

Color is of concern to me.    We use Green boards only for prototypes now.    THis means that we never accidently send a prototype board out of the building!
   
I now use lots of $5 2 layer pcbs, just for testing small circuit segments, if i'm not sure if how they will funciton.

[phil from seattle]

I find it amusing that people look at this deal and find all sorts of things to complain about. Green board, $5 free shipping. Where's the beef? Personally I like black or red but for $5, I'm ecstatic about green. Heck, I could love pink on those terms...

I put a board through yesterday. Green, free shipping. At checkout they dinged me for $0.49 to use paypal. Gasp! They lied! String them up.

I'm queueing up a couple more boards to fire off if this works. I'm insanely happy to have such a low cost deal, assuming the quality is decent (and I expect it will). If they are unusable, I'll skip a couple of cups of coffee to make up for it.

[sleemanj]

Anybody know do they accept diy tab-route (mousebite) for a single PCB, or does that cost extra.

Ie, if I submit this 50x50, will that go through for the $5 as a "single design" or would they call it a panel and charge more. 



(DirtyPCBs it's fine to do this for the protopacks FWIW)

[mrpackethead]

I'd try and see, but i suspect you'll get some charges applied.   

[wraper]

Anybody know do they accept diy tab-route (mousebite) for a single PCB, or does that cost extra.

Ie, if I submit this 50x50, will that go through for the $5 as a "single design" or would they call it a panel and charge more. 

(DirtyPCBs it's fine to do this for the protopacks FWIW)

Most likely you'll pay more than for ordering these PCBs separately. No chance it will remain $5.

[mrpackethead]

yup, the 1 deisng on 100x100 for 10pces is $5   2 designs is $37, and 4 is $49.00

If you really want to exploit this,  spin this in a differnet direction..  Panelise the same pcb on the 100x100 panel.   Looks like you'd get 4 of some,  etc.

you could then get 40 or 50 of the same pcb, for $5! shipped.     

the pricing of these $5 boards is entirely promotional to get you to try out the service.    But you can't use that as a basis for negoiating a deal on 5000!

[fcb]

I just got some boards through from ALLPCB.

Qty: 10, 55x40mm, standard green/white/1.6mm PTH, I have to say these are pretty good - and very impressed with their service (placed order @ 1230hrs on 29th October (a Sunday!) and TNT just delivered them (1500hrs on 2nd November) - for $5.49

They are obviously making a loss on these, but I'd be happy to place some test production orders with them on this basis, help support this great prototype service.  My only criticisms are:

1. Material looks like TG130, be nice to have a TG140/170 option.
2. Their online production tracking is in Chinese and doesn't work - mainly a confidence thing for me.

[mrpackethead]

1. Material looks like TG130, be nice to have a TG140/170 option.

Its KB6160A TG130.  Not so much of an issue if you are using Lead based solder. Once you start hitting 260C for lead free, you might be pushing things.  I've been very sucessfully using it with our Vapour phase system. No problems there.  But i agree, it woudl be nice.

[phil from seattle]

I just got back a small PCB from them. Looked pretty good though there was a slight misalignment off the drills. Not terrible and for 5.50 (half a buck paypal surcharge) delivered, I can live with it.  Time from order placed to boards in hand was 5 days. 

[invzim]

Grabbed the opportunity with free shipping and did a respin of a design I'm working on.  4 Layer board, ordered 10 - got 15 - need 2..

Quality is ok, about the same as pcbway I would say.  The soldermask alignment is good, but they won't do soldermask on 0.5mm pitch.  They did include it on a 0.65mm pitch part though.  The HASL seems a hair thick, but nothing unworkable - and for the price it can't be beat.

Pictures:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/a2ZYza3SxlUgftHG3

[phil from seattle]

I've since done 3 more boards through them and they all came back acceptable. In fact, drill alignment seems much better than the first one. 

One thing to note, the default HASL is not lead free. If you pick lead free HASL, price goes up. So, Lead Free isn't free...

[mrpackethead]

Quality is ok, about the same as pcbway I would say.  The soldermask alignment is good, but they won't do soldermask on 0.5mm pitch.  They did include it on a 0.65mm pitch part though.  The HASL seems a hair thick, but nothing unworkable - and for the price it can't be beat.

HASL is always a bit variable, I largely just use ENIG these days, though they are offering OSP as an option.. Both OSP and ENIG are pretty flat.  The real reason i use ENIG Is not because it doe'snt corrode as much, but its becuase its super flat, and since i place a LOT of QFN packages, flat is critical.

Solder mask 'slivers' less than 0.18mm become quite unreliable.   On your .5mm pitch, you have .~25 mm for the pins, you need about .10 clearnance between the edge of the pad and the mask..   THat leaves you a gap of about .15mm between pins.   Just not enough space between the pins..   Some manufacturers will do it, but you risk, that the mask comes away from teh board during reflow, and you get this sliver of mask floating around all over the place.   

With good technique of stencil printing this is not a problem, you'll not get bridging,  and if you are hand soldering again good technique ( and good flux ) makes it not really a probem.

[harry4516]

just got my first delivery of 10pcs for $5. Delivery time was only 5 days from online order to arrival with DHL express.
How can they do that without charging shipping costs, great job.
PCB quality is fine, the board is running already, no problems.

[mrpackethead]

And i just had an order ship with 'free' shipping. ( actually it was just a discount of $24.00 shipping ) as it was quite a lot of stuff..    4 layer boards ordered on Sat last last week, arrived today.

[sleemanj]

Might want to get your A into G if you want to take advantage of the free shipping.

Posted to Reddit...

https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_circuits/comments/7db5la/free_shipping_saves_your_money_free_expedite/

> But this activity really costs us so much, so may it is going tol stop in some days.

[soubitos]

Depending on the country, does DHL charge any extra processing fees (something you have to pay when the item arrives) or is it all covered by the free postage?

DHL does not charge anything extra, but you may have to pay import duties, depending on your country.

Here in Greece if i get a package outside EU with DHL i will be called to pay close to 80 euro "fee" and on top of that any potential taxes. The same package delivered by for example China Post or Post in general IF worth over 40something euro, will cost 15 euro as fee plus taxes....  thanks but no thanks.... my poison of choice if i need something that fast would be EMS

[Rerouter]

Awaiting my boards, ordered sunday night, shipped Tuesday night, and passed through Australian customs today, hopefully i will see it tomorrow and can break it down, so far even without free shipping that turnaround time has caught my attention, I cant even get a local board house to do that for under $200,

[mrpackethead]

Two orders arrived this weeks from Allpcb with the free shipping.  Yes its too good to last for ages, but its great while it does, and the product is pretty good and they have been consistently fast.    Sadly they just were a bit agreesivee with their marketing.  Hope they get to come back.

[soubitos]

Anybody know do they accept diy tab-route (mousebite) for a single PCB, or does that cost extra.

Would some other company accept this as a single pcb?

[sleemanj]

Anybody know do they accept diy tab-route (mousebite) for a single PCB, or does that cost extra.

Would some other company accept this as a single pcb?

DirtyPCBs, for 2 layer boards.

[tszaboo]

Yeah, its awesome. Just the fine print is that its 'free' up to 1kg on DHL to *most* countrys..    And if its more than 1kg, they are discounting the shipping by $24 per shipment.

This means you can get 10 100x100mm 2 layer pcbs, for USD$5 delivered in about a week.     Thats great value.

And totally unsustainable...

They offer free DHL shipping, and 5 dollar manufacturing??? 
OK, I'm going to test them. Not the DHL part though, as I got extra processing fees with DHL in tha past, and never with HK post.
They charge extra .5 dollar "paypal fee" on a 5 dollar order. Still cheaper than ordering a pizza.

[Rerouter]

got my batch of boards this morning, so a 5 day turnaround, looking very good,

I'll whip the old camera out tomorrow, but for now i'll run down the basics,

Pad adhesion - normal soldering, even holding the iron in place at 350C for 30 seconds does not effect it, but rotational forces while hot can cause the pad to slide while still being adhered while cold, I only noticed this on an 0603 pad, however it appears its slightly weaker than say a recent Itead board, Possibly a concern for hacked together projects,

Hole registration is fine on 0.3mm hole, 0.6mm pad vias, the tenting has voids on a small fraction, but no copper is ever exposed.

plated hole wall thickness is slightly thicker than 0.5oz, at-least by material mass, uniformity on this kind of aspect ration is good, no signs of plugging or partial voids. the material is bonded in the holes far stronger than it is bonded to the board itself, likely due to the increased surface area.

Silk screen is readable, but slightly distorted on 0.5/0.5mm text,

Edge routing shows that they internally use mouse-bites on a 2mm routing bit, the bumps were filed, but not filed flush, for the price I don't mind, but something to be aware of it you need exact dimensions.

solder mask was expanded out to roughly 0.1mm expansion around both 0.5mm QFN package pins, and 0.65mm MSOP packages,

The 1.6mm board material appears to have an Er of about 4.3,

[mrpackethead]

1: What is the real 2-layer "on sale" service PCB thickness (or options if there are any options for this for the 2-L sale price)?  I guess (the only?) one is "near" 1.6mm thick, but if anyone has a more specific number that would be helpful (transmission line calculations).  I guess they use just a single double sided clad core with no prepreg?  Or no?

just measured the ones i have got sitting on my desk, and they were all in teh range 1.57 - 1.60 mm.   I'm guessing there is a bit of variation between sheets.

4: Do they specify what specific size tools are available in their drill rack?

The smallest size drills are 0.3mm, and they go up in 0.05 steps to 0.6, then 0.1mm steps to 2.00   I'll double check now its a good question,

5: Do they allow routed areas interior to the PCB for larger holes / slots / polygons / whatever?

yes

6: Do they allow castellations to be made along the outside edge of the PCB?

Yes, but not on the $5 boards.

7: What issues if any have caused your orders to be held / rejected / price increased / whatever? DFM?  Drawing format / content / packaging?  Gerber generation formats / settings?  ...?

i rarely get a problem now, but i've got my DRC rules well tuned.


- holes / vias too small
- Spacing or tracks smaller than the design rules.
- solder mask silver issues.. ( mask width less than 0.18mm )

They are pretty good at checking, and will pick up things like 'antenna' traces ( a trace just going nowhere ).. If you've got one of those you need to tell them, other wise they will come back and query it.  They will also query things that look plain odd, ( for example if you had a trace that looked like a short circuit.. ( this could happen because you'd accidently merged a couple of layers in your gerbers ).   This is one of the things that i quite like about them, they do in general take some time to tryu to make sure you get what you intended. What is tricky sometimes is understanding the explainations that they give you.




Thanks!

1. Material looks like TG130, be nice to have a TG140/170 option.

Its KB6160A TG130.  Not so much of an issue if you are using Lead based solder. Once you start hitting 260C for lead free, you might be pushing things.  I've been very sucessfully using it with our Vapour phase system. No problems there.  But i agree, it woudl be nice.

[sleemanj]

It is worth noting that even just silk-separated designs (not routed, not scored, just silk) are still counted as separate designs according to All PCB ("wendy1598" on reddit), eg this 50x50 with only silk separating would be counted as 2 designs ("PCB Kinds"), which blows the price up quite a lot (significantly more than just making 3 separate orders of 10pcs)



If you're a small-time-producer of small boards don't just go assuming that "buy more costs less", I assume they manufacturer in certain minimum numbers which causes the pricing variability with the sweet-spots at 10 (must be artificially discounted), 50, 100 and 150 pieces

Amortised prices for 50x50 including DHL where it wasn't free (to NZ)

  5 = 100 cents
  10 = 50c
  15 = 113c
  20 = 85c
  25 = 80c
  30 = 67c
  40 = 60c
  50 = 54c
  75 = 60c
  100 = 45c
  125 = 48c
  150 = 45c


 

[mrpackethead]

Mm DHL has been free for me to nz. Not sure if things have changed

[sleemanj]

Sorry I meant "where it wasn't free for the quantity ordered (being shipped to NZ)"

Once you hit a certain quantity (err, 75 from memory) they start charging for shipping again.

[tszaboo]

Process Time(GMT+8)
Final Inspection and Packing 2017-11-19T14:30:31.01
Profiling 2017-11-19T09:11:23.627
Testing 2017-11-19T07:55:52.44
Surface Finishing 2017-11-19T07:54:22.76
Silk Screen 2017-11-19T05:18:44.447
Solder Mask Positioning Inspection 2017-11-19T05:17:55.923
Solder Mask 2017-11-19T02:18:33.547
Etching Inspection 2017-11-19T02:06:50.457
Etching 2017-11-19T01:32:11.58
Dry Film Circuit Inspection 2017-11-19T01:24:00.5
Dry Film Coating 2017-11-18T21:55:23.313
Panel Plating 2017-11-18T20:47:08.817
Conducting Filming 2017-11-18T19:27:00.473
First Drilling 2017-11-18T17:45:05.797
Cutting 2017-11-18T17:29:14.527

I believe it is a little bit overkill to tell the time down to the millisecond, but whatever.

[sleemanj]

Heh, can't say I didn't try with the below board.  Note no silk lines, no copper lines, no nothing except a few "fiducials" to separate the pcbs in this diy panel (and yes it was green, my render is red)

Submitted as a $5 100x100 job, price updated to .. wait for it... $57, yeah, not so much.

I could send this to Dirty (and might well), and have it tab-bite routed if I have enough space for less than half that.

[mrpackethead]

how did you intend to cut it up.

I woudl just get them to make you 10 of each board for $5 each. Seems pretty resonable.

[phil from seattle]

It's the duplication of part numbers that I'm sure they zeroed in on.

Back in the day when PCBs were expensive I would do that sort of thing but with $5 ($5.49 w/paypal) for 10 boards delivered, I couldn't be bothered to try and sneak it past them. Based on your image, there are 4 different designs - that's $21.96 for 10 boards each.

[sleemanj]

how did you intend to cut it up.

Carbide Tipped Laminate Cutter works well for DIY scoring, available from Bunnings etc



I am no stranger to cutting PCBs.

I woudl just get them to make you 10 of each board for $5 each. Seems pretty resonable.

You underestimate my miserliness

[Fire Doger]

For reference, in a project I had some spare space on PCB and decided to form a little box with it.
I did them on PCBWay without extra cost. Line Cutouts are actually very long pads and I tried to leave a solid square outline so they can process them as any other square PCB. Plus there is a solid ground plane under everything. PCBway's support told me that if its somehow connected (even with a thin track between planes) its counted as the same design. I guess something similar works to AllPCB too.

[sleemanj]

Yes I did think about connecting them all somehow but I could not easily do so given I used gerbmerge to assemble the panel, asembling manually in DipTrace is too much of a pain.  Maybe I will think about some way  to put in a fake connecting trace in gerbmerge in future, probably only needs ability to specify one straight horizontal/vertical line on top/bottom from a given point (connecting a trace) on one edge of each pcb into the gutter, I already added the ability to put copper borders in the gutters which would look like ground plane if they were connected... hmmmm....

Anyway, I sent a tab route version created with thisisnotrocketscience's panelizer (with another couple boards squeezed in) to dirty, 24.95, admittedly slow mail.  But even dhl still would have been cheaper, but it will probably sit on my desk for 6 months before I actually use them anyway knowing me.

[rob.manderson]

I just got an order from AllPCB (my fourth as it happens).  Placed this order on Thursday afternoon (Dec 14) and received the completed boards this afternoon (Dec 18).  10 of them for the grand sum of $5.49 with the free DHL shipping.

And lest someone accuse me of shilling for AllPCB I won't even be drawing their attention to this post.  Here's the board.

What is it?  It's an AM receiver.  There's an Arduino Nano V3 board controlling an si5351 synthesizer for the LO,  an SA602 input mixer and a two stage IF driving another SA602 synchronous demodulator.  The sync carrier is derived from the IF via a single stage transistor overdriving an LM311 comparator.

Yep, I could probably find all of that on a single chip somewhere but the challenge is to make it all work!

[phil from seattle]

Same thing happened to me - put in on the 14th. today the big yellow truck drove up to my house.  4 day turn around.  I still am in awe of this.  Even with 7 day turn around which is more typical, it's incredible.

[rob.manderson]

Same thing happened to me - put in on the 14th. today the big yellow truck drove up to my house.  4 day turn around.  I still am in awe of this.  Even with 7 day turn around which is more typical, it's incredible.

You and me both! 

[up8051]

Free shipping still available but PCB price grow up 100mmx100mm 10pcs = 20USD 
PCD lead free version grow up to 35 USD.
So currently the offer is not very attractive.

Regads,
up8051

[ataradov]

So currently the offer is not very attractive.

Holly shit. They are also playing jingle bells on their site. This is retarded.

[asmi]

Free shipping still available but PCB price grow up 100mmx100mm 10pcs = 20USD 
PCD lead free version grow up to 35 USD.
So currently the offer is not very attractive.

Regads,
up8051

Now $5 is only for 5x5 cm boards. Looks like they've decided to hide shipping costs in the price of the board. Do they really think engineers are that stupid as to not see through this?

[ataradov]

Now $5 is only for 5x5 cm boards.

$5 for 5pcs, $10 for 10 pcs.

Do they really think engineers are that stupid as to not see through this?

I don't see why they would care, it is still a better deal than most other options, especially considering the manufacturing time.

[mrpackethead]

And i'm quite impressed with their care on checking gerbers..  They somtimes find things that are unusual, and come back and ask.   

[sleemanj]

Now $5 is only for 5x5 cm boards. Looks like they've decided to hide shipping costs in the price of the board.

To be fair, it's free DHL shipping.  $10 for 10 50x50 pcbs including DHL is still stupidly cheap, either they have an obscenely good deal with their local DHL agent (or ... something), or they are still losing money or at best breaking even at that rate.

DHL shipping would be around $20 USD alone most places I think.

[up8051]

5cmx5cm is to small for most of my projects  also I prefer lead-free PCB (EU country) so have to return to elecrow or easyeda.

[soubitos]

who is going to check about lead free on pcb's entering the EU? I would only worry about it on a production run and even then....

[asmi]

also I prefer lead-free PCB (EU country) so have to return to elecrow or easyeda.

Unless you're selling these boards (as part of some product) no one is going to care if it's lead free or not.

[asmi]

To be fair, it's free DHL shipping.  $10 for 10 50x50 pcbs including DHL is still stupidly cheap, either they have an obscenely good deal with their local DHL agent (or ... something), or they are still losing money or at best breaking even at that rate.

5x5 cm is just too small, and they used to make 10x10 cm for the same price, so it's definitely is a price hike. Not that I care about this too much - I've been mostly ordering stencils from them lately.

DHL shipping would be around $20 USD alone most places I think.

The problem is that when shipping is paid separately, you can pool your boards and order several of them in one go to spread shipping cost across several designs. While if it's factored into the price of the product, you can't really do that. So given these two choices I'd take separate shipping any day. And I think this is good practice in general because it's makes for more transparent pricing where you can see what costs what.

[Mr. Scram]

50X50 is too small indeed. That's unfortunate. It's a 400% price hike.

I guess we knew it couldn't last.

[asmi]

I guess we knew it couldn't last.

I agree, but I was expecting them to just announce an end of the special offer and revert back to the way things were before. I'd be totally OK with that.

[mrpackethead]

It appears that they have changed their FR4 too.. they now only offer FR-4?ShengYi Tg140?. It used to be TG130 material.

This starts messign with designs.  if you have done high speed stuff.

[soubitos]

Offering free shipping is never EVER free... I placed and order which i am expecting to receive via registered mail. DHL is not a viable option for me. Registered mail is cheaper though.....

[NorthGuy]

Offering free shipping is never EVER free... I placed and order which i am expecting to receive via registered mail. DHL is not a viable option for me. Registered mail is cheaper though.....

DHL doesn't work for me neither. And "HK mail" may take several months. I believe the Canadian government slows down the shipments from China on purpose. ePackets worked Ok recently, but you cannot select ePacket in their form.

[soubitos]

Our (Greek) government is so desperate to find money that they started checking EVERYTHING no matter how small, valuable, urgent etc.... since this past summer they created mountains of packages and envelopes from all over the world which they didnt think would take extra personel to process in a timely manner... because they simply dont care.... all they want is money.... DHL on the other hand asks for 60-80 euro fee to handle customs for you so its a big no-no anyway.... the aftermath is that you place an order today, chinese ship out in a few days most of the time, it takes 6-15 days from China to Greece and then..... you wait a month or two to get an envelope with 1-2$ worth of spare parts you desperately need to finish a project or repair a device etc.... in my case, last month when i received my first pcb order from easyeda which was shipped together with parts for the pcbs also from LCSC, total worth was 90-92 euros, the chinese made the big mistake to use EMS instead of registered airmail (to have the order deliver fast because of a small delay after i placed my order) and i end paying i think 46 euros tax (they decided the box was worth 128 euros! as they obviously know the price of 1000 smd resistors and TP5100 IC's better than the manufacturers LOL)....

I am expecting my first (and probably last if prices are much higher than easyeda/jlcpcb) via HK post..... i ordered the same pcb also from jlcpcb to compare them but in my case the pcbs are non-critical and as soon as they work and have no quality problems i can always go for the cheaper offer.....

[L1L1]

Our (Greek) government is so desperate to find money that they started checking EVERYTHING no matter how small, valuable, urgent etc.... since this past summer they created mountains of packages and envelopes from all over the world which they didnt think would take extra personel to process in a timely manner... because they simply dont care.... all they want is money.... DHL on the other hand asks for 60-80 euro fee to handle customs for you so its a big no-no anyway.... the aftermath is that you place an order today, chinese ship out in a few days most of the time, it takes 6-15 days from China to Greece and then..... you wait a month or two to get an envelope with 1-2$ worth of spare parts you desperately need to finish a project or repair a device etc.... in my case, last month when i received my first pcb order from easyeda which was shipped together with parts for the pcbs also from LCSC, total worth was 90-92 euros, the chinese made the big mistake to use EMS instead of registered airmail (to have the order deliver fast because of a small delay after i placed my order) and i end paying i think 46 euros tax (they decided the box was worth 128 euros! as they obviously know the price of 1000 smd resistors and TP5100 IC's better than the manufacturers LOL)....

I am expecting my first (and probably last if prices are much higher than easyeda/jlcpcb) via HK post..... i ordered the same pcb also from jlcpcb to compare them but in my case the pcbs are non-critical and as soon as they work and have no quality problems i can always go for the cheaper offer.....

I've been living in Athens for the past 5 years. I have no problem paying a fair amount of taxes, such as VAT, as long as the procedure is simple and clear. Unfortunately, in Greece rules are complex and arbitrary. Here's a few tips I can share:

• First, there is a threshold under which the customs don't charge anything: it's 22 euros I think, including the shipping. I took advantage of the ALLPCB $5 offer discussed in this thread and I had my PCBs delivered by DHL in a few days to my door with no issue.
• Second, as far as I have seen, nothing sent by airmail is subject to any check. So oshpark in the US and anything sent by ordinary mail from China is safe. This means a long wait however.
• Third, for parts, use Mouser: they take care of all custom clearance for you, order placed on Monday is typically delivered on Thursday to my door. Farnell in the UK is also a good option. As I learned painfully, this means that you need to avoid Digikey and Arrow for anything above the threshold I mentioned in my first point.
• Fourth, for PCBs there are solution in the EU, avoiding customs issues altogether.

On a side note, I've been told by a customs officer that you can avoid paying the 60 euros brokerage fees by clearing the packages yourself on the greek tax website (you will still pay for VAT). Unfortunately, I have found nobody to explain me the procedure (my greek is not so good). If any greek reading this forum knows how to do this, I'd love to hear from you. I'd be willing to pay for a lesson, in cash or in beer :-)

[SeanB]

Here in south Africa the Post Office simply started to charge a "handling fee" on all incoming small packets and parcels, and then if the value was above threshold value they then did the duty thing as well. With this though there is a small silver lining, in that often they just put the handling fee on and ignore the customs side because of the sheer volume of incoming stuff. That it takes 6 weeks for a parcel to appear from the black hole known as SAPO Track and Lose is not really any change. Still takes 6 weeks for a letter to travel via post to the same post office area, which is why I went to electronic billing, got tired of having the bill arrive 2 weeks after the due date.

[jeremy]

FYI ALLPCB have just increased their prices. Complicated boards (3mil, etc) appear to be up by 30%, and the $5 deal only applies to 5pcs of 50x50mm (it used to be 10pcs of 100x100mm).

[soubitos]

I placed my order on Order Time:2017/12/19 7:39:32
It was ready and packaged by 2017-12-20T06:42:43.023
It was marked as shipped on Ship Time:2017/12/22 17:35:14
As others stated above, i avoided DHL for customs reasons and opted for registered airmail.
I do not need delivery in 5 days or 10 days, ordering from China over the years teaches you to expect delivery in over a month really LOL.
That been said though, i expect the people i buy from to respect my business and make sure they at least do their part of the work in a timely manner... what is the point to bust your @ss to manufacture a product on order in 24hrs then ship out 2 days later is my first thought.. Then i check the tracking number to only find out the package was in fact delivered to the postal service on 28/12/2017, 14:14:00!!!!! and it was not shipped out before today 2/1/2018, 15:39:00

Why make something in 24hrs to have it shipped out 13 days later?
I ordered the exact same pcb from jlcpcb too.... there i have other issues to post but i keep it till the moment i have them both in my hands so i can possibly make a video on youtube about the whole experience etc

[Mr. Scram]

FYI ALLPCB have just increased their prices. Complicated boards (3mil, etc) appear to be up by 30%, and the $5 deal only applies to 5pcs of 50x50mm (it used to be 10pcs of 100x100mm).

That's almost an order of magnitude more expensive with an 800% price hike.

Their timing isn't great either. I'll need a series of prototype boards the coming month, which will now cost me considerably more to make 

[pulsar123]

Offering free shipping is never EVER free... I placed and order which i am expecting to receive via registered mail. DHL is not a viable option for me. Registered mail is cheaper though.....

DHL doesn't work for me neither.

What's the issue? DHL shipping from allpcb worked really well for me (34 hours shipping time).

Too bad they increased their prices - I only paid 5.50$ US for 5x100x100mm boards.  Now it is 15$.

[tszaboo]

Offering free shipping is never EVER free... I placed and order which i am expecting to receive via registered mail. DHL is not a viable option for me. Registered mail is cheaper though.....

DHL doesn't work for me neither.

What's the issue? DHL shipping from allpcb worked really well for me (34 hours shipping time).

Too bad they increased their prices - I only paid 5.50$ US for 5x100x100mm boards.  Now it is 15$.

DHL tend to take care of VAT and import duty, no matter what. And charge you for it. And the yellow truck only delivers during working hours, and they dont have an office where you can pick it up, unlike regular post.

[NorthGuy]

What's the issue? DHL shipping from allpcb worked really well for me (34 hours shipping time).

I'm in rural area. What I usually get from DHL is this: "Hi, we have a parcel for you. Give me an address of a friend in Edmonton (150 km from me) where we can deliver it to".

[Mr. Scram]

I'm in rural area. What I usually get from DHL is this: "Hi, we have a parcel for you. Give me an address of a friend in Edmonton (150 km from me) where we can deliver it to".

Or the ol' ring and run, where they claim to have attempted delivery, sometimes twice in an hour. I've never seen a delivery man return after the first attempt, even though I'm home. Of course they kindly deliver it to some collection point conveniently located in a place I never go to, except when I'm picking up packages.

At this point, it starts becoming more convenient to just go to regular shops again. I get my stuff now, rather than in a few days, and I have to go into town in both cases, though regular town is more conveniently located than the collection point is.

[mrpackethead]

Heres teh last board i ordered, on christmas eve.    Just got back to work and it was sitting there waiting for me.    Solder mask was really nice, and everything was precise.   These are panelised with toolign strips so they can go into the PNP machine easy.

The little notches ont eh corners make life much easier when stenciling, as they provide a 'key' for the pins to lock into.    I do like their new solder masks, they are much more transparent than the more opque ones they used to use.

REgistration on this is good.     You'll note that i dont' put designators on the compoents any longer.   Its pretty pointless theres often not a lot of space.

[soubitos]

Quote from: NANDBlog on Today at 10:28:17 PM

DHL tend to take care of VAT and import duty, no matter what. And charge you for it. And the yellow truck only delivers during working hours, and they dont have an office where you can pick it up, unlike regular post.

DHL charges a minimum customs clearance fee of around 80 euros last time i had to use them couple years ago maybe.... not gonna risk it unless its a really HUGE pcb order really even then, POST is charging 1/5 of that and if you are going to pass a couple thousand euros worth of anything through customs, its best to take over the customs clearance and use a certified customs agent who will charge maybe 50 euro but then knows the "tricks" and has YOU on his interest than the taxes hungry state.
Many years ago i was asked 120 euros for customs clearance i think by Fedex or DHL, can't recall, and on top of that you pay VAT and any other taxes applicable....  i said no, hired a customs agent who got me 2-3000 worth of brand new computer memory (DDR400 back then i think) for only 50 euro ... tax free as "scrap electronics" LOL

[pulsar123]

Was I very lucky then? My last two orders using DHL from China went very smoothly  - the first one was a 3D printer - 9kg; I only got charged ~25$ at the door; the second order was 10x10cmx10cm PCBs order from allpcb - 34 hours shipping time, no charge at the door. I heard if the declared value is <100$ DHL doesn't charge anything on top? And of course it does help living in a densely populated area (Hamilton ON).

A somewhat unrelated question - can one sell (say, on ebay) extra copies of a PCB, if the PCB design is declared as Open Source hardware, with the GNU license? Specifically, I just ordered 5pcs of Open.Theremin V3 PCB on allpcb, will likely receive 7, but I only need one. Before, when the cost was 5.50$, I wouldn't care, but now it's 15.80$, so ideally I'd like to recover the cost for the copies I won't need.

[soubitos]

i dont see any reason not to be able to sell them...

[asmi]

 I live in Kitchener, Ontario, and used DHL for many (50+) orders. So far my experience is that they only charge extra for shipments over 100 CAD in declared value (in commercial invoice). They have been fairly reliable, even though they mess up delivery every so often and as result I receive shipments a day or two later than I should have.

[oilburner]

Wow, cool board!, does it work?

Greg

[oilburner]

I just got an order from AllPCB (my fourth as it happens).  Placed this order on Thursday afternoon (Dec 14) and received the completed boards this afternoon (Dec 18).  10 of them for the grand sum of $5.49 with the free DHL shipping.

And lest someone accuse me of shilling for AllPCB I won't even be drawing their attention to this post.  Here's the board.

What is it?  It's an AM receiver.  There's an Arduino Nano V3 board controlling an si5351 synthesizer for the LO,  an SA602 input mixer and a two stage IF driving another SA602 synchronous demodulator.  The sync carrier is derived from the IF via a single stage transistor overdriving an LM311 comparator.

Yep, I could probably find all of that on a single chip somewhere but the challenge is to make it all work!

oops, did not quote which board...

Hey cool board! does it work?

Greg

[rob.manderson]

oops, did not quote which board...

Hey cool board! does it work?

Greg

Yep - works a treat.  Of course, that's with 30 microvolts of RF input, so it's picking up local AM broadcast radio just fine but since that's not what I'm interested in hearing I still have to work on an RF frontend.  Simple stuff to many here on EEVBlog but it's a series of mysteries to me to be worked out 

[8bitgasm]

New user here - just wanted to chime in for other Canadians.  I've used allpcb about 8 times now, I finally was charged "customs" from DHL for the first time on this last order.  $26CAD declared value, which they charged GST for $1.30, but no actual customs levy ($0); so no big deal.  But then there was a $16 processing fee added to collect the $1.30, for a amount due of $17.30.  Obviously bit of a piss of on a $26 order.

I read into it more, there is a border security website on the Government of Canada page that states orders of declared value over $20CAD are subject to GST.  So lesson is, keep orders under $20CAD.  With free shipping it's almost best to just break up the orders to avoid the extra charges.  Regardless, even with the extra charge, there is no better deal or turn around time out there right now.

[pulsar123]

Interesting - thanks for sharing. I didn't check how much allpcb puts as a declared value - is it the amount you pay for the boards? If that excludes the Paypal fee (0.85 for a 15$ order), then we are good for up to 15$ orders. If it includes the paypal fee, then we are at the mercy of the Custom's exchange rate (right now 15.85 US = 19.81 CAD).

[8bitgasm]

I did the math, and customs used the declared value by allpcb (the packing slip, in USD) which is the check-out cart price w/o PayPal fees, multiplied by the exchange rate on xe.com with a couple extra %points.  You're probably right though to just keep orders under $15 USD as a buffer, while shipping is free; unless of course you have a high volume order.  I could see allpcb being a little annoyed if you spread a 100 qty order across many orders of 10 qty!  I can't imagine they are making any money as others have pointed out.

[GreggD]

Free shipping is gone

[ataradov]

Still there for me, but now 5cm x 5cm x 5pcs is $14.00 and 10cm x 10cm x 10pcs is $29. Which is basically the same prices as everywhere else, except no ability to save on shipping ordering multiple boards.

[mrpackethead]

Def got free shipping still. The chinse governmetn are still paying subsidys.  DHL must be loving it.

[Yansi]

I placed my order on Order Time:2017/12/19 7:39:32
It was ready and packaged by 2017-12-20T06:42:43.023
It was marked as shipped on Ship Time:2017/12/22 17:35:14
As others stated above, i avoided DHL for customs reasons and opted for registered airmail.
I do not need delivery in 5 days or 10 days, ordering from China over the years teaches you to expect delivery in over a month really LOL.
That been said though, i expect the people i buy from to respect my business and make sure they at least do their part of the work in a timely manner... what is the point to bust your @ss to manufacture a product on order in 24hrs then ship out 2 days later is my first thought.. Then i check the tracking number to only find out the package was in fact delivered to the postal service on 28/12/2017, 14:14:00!!!!! and it was not shipped out before today 2/1/2018, 15:39:00

Why make something in 24hrs to have it shipped out 13 days later?
I ordered the exact same pcb from jlcpcb too.... there i have other issues to post but i keep it till the moment i have them both in my hands so i can possibly make a video on youtube about the whole experience etc

I decided to give them a try too. So far it looks like this:

[8bitgasm]

$5 Board deals were sure nice while they lasted.  Definitely not a sustainable business at that price however.

[soubitos]

Seems they changed pricing days after i placed my order... which i havent received yet as it was shipped via HK post (per my request of course).... they might arrive together with my other order from jlcpcb which has the same board too so i can compare the two ... although i incline to order from jlcpcb i must admit mostly because so far they exceed my expectations in customer support and as long as they do their best, i would like to stick with them

[tszaboo]

OK, a quick review. Qthe quality of the PCBs are just bad. I mean, they work. But silkscreen resolution is bad. Several orientation marker dots got deleted in my design, with .2mm diamter dots. I had text on it, a 0.25mm Stroke string, and they deleted the dot from the i. Unacceptable, if you ask me.
 
And then I had to rework some SOT23 devices, because they were in reverse. When placing them back, the pads were already lifting from the PCB.
I guess I got what I payed for.

[Yansi]

"Pic or didn't happen" 

Small silkscreen resolution is inherent to ALL chinese fabs as far as I know. Is it even worse than that?

I have experience with Itead Studio, Dirty PCBs / Dangerous Prototypes 2.0, never had problems with the copper peeling off after some rework done. Is the AllPCB that worse?

My PCBs from AllPCB will likely arrive on Monday...

[jeremy]

Small silkscreen resolution is inherent to ALL chinese fabs as far as I know. Is it even worse than that?

In my experience it is the same as all of the other low cost Chinese fabs; marginal at best.

Fwiw, the best silkscreen I ever got came from circuitlabs in nz. I suspect they use a lithographic process for the silkscreen.

[soubitos]

These are from the new TP4056FLEXADV-V2.20F module i am about to start selling...
Made by JLCPCB ... the photos are from my phone, dont really know how well they show.
I couldn't tell how they print the silkscreen really but, the top layer seems like tiny diagonal lines, not dots per se.. the bottom though is almost straight lines, despite the fact it is 0.7mm font size! they really look like they are very high quality... as for the durability... well... i really abused some of their boards, soldering and desoldering parts, brushed it with medium toothbrush and alcohol to clean it then again and again.... not even a scratch.... of course if i go with the tip of my tweezers the pcb has no chance but it will not flake away from "normal" use and some abuse as well... i honestly dont see the point for extra high resolution when it comes to silkscreen, i would give more points to durability and i wouldnt like it too "dotty" either ... i hope my poor english translates well !!!

[tszaboo]

There you go. D1 amost lost 2 pads, they are crooked and held in place by the lead. D2 lost a pad. All orientation marker is gone from D1-D2, and all the i-s. Sure, I heated the board when soldering IC1, and desoldering D1-D2, but it should have survived this.

[HwAoRrDk]

The overall quality of the silkscreen there looks pretty good - it just looks like the dots were never even part of the data to be printed in the first place. Their process is perfectly capable of producing such dots - I got some boards from them myself just a little while ago with such fine silkscreen dots.

Are you sure it wasn't a problem with your gerbers?

Other than that, the only way I can imagine that happening is if perhaps someone at AllPCB mis-applied some pre-printing processing to the silkscreen gerber data that said something like "eliminate all shapes that have total area less than X".

[Yansi]

NANDBlog: I doubt that is the fab's mistake. I'd double check the gerbers are valid and not somehow obscurely damaged. The text is very large and should be of no problem to manufacture. I use much lower font sizes with Chinese prototyping houses, like 0.8mm height, while still fully readable and no dots missing.

PS: Why blackening the TUSB213 chip? 

[tszaboo]

NANDBlog: I doubt that is the fab's mistake. I'd double check the gerbers are valid and not somehow obscurely damaged. The text is very large and should be of no problem to manufacture. I use much lower font sizes with Chinese prototyping houses, like 0.8mm height, while still fully readable and no dots missing.

PS: Why blackening the TUSB213 chip? 

Did TI already release the datasheet for it? I guess then I dont need to hide that anymore.

Actually I double checked the Gerber, and the i-s had the dots removed. Re-generated the gerbers, and the dots are there. Bloody Altium making mistakes on gerber generation again...
I cannot believe this. I had a board, where some of the bottom silkscreen got copied to the top soldermask.

The orientation marker was 0.2mm  ant it got deleted though. I guess it was too close to the pad, they cropped it (which is fine, no silkscreen over pads) and then it became smaller than wat they can print. And lifting pads on rework is still a big no-no.

[Yansi]

Altium strikes again! 

Well, the datasheet is readily available and to find what the chip you're hiding was like a 30 seconds search. First a TUSB211 came up - but wrong package, so the second link was TUSB213, with a correct package and also the pinout fits. 

I don't know about the peel strength of the boards from ALLPCB, but never had any problems with it using different manufacturers (mentioned above: mainly Itead Studio). And I did abuse some quite a lot reworking parts multiple times, but I always use hot air. Prying the components out using just the soldering iron might definitely damage even more quality boards, when not done carefully.

[Metsuko]

Hello, I know it does not belong here but I would like to ask what is ''Coupon balance'' on Allpcb.com? How to use it? I have there 120$ and I don't know how spend it.

Thanks Martin

[8bitgasm]

@nandblog, any reason you don't tent your vias?  I believe allpcb charges more $ leaving them untented like that...

[AndyC_772]

I've had some mixed experiences from AllPCB lately.

I've spent the whole of the last couple of working days soldering surface mount boards; various techniques including a regular soldering iron, and a hot air station both with and without a pre-heater.

No lifted pads at all to report. The only PCB damage has been a couple of tiny nicks in the solder mask, which is quite thin, but that's by no means unique to AllPCB.

Silk screen is fine too. Not perfect, but certainly readable, and no identifying marks have been lost. I've seen much worse on boards that cost a whole lot more.

On the other hand...

I'm still getting CAD data rejected because "no NC drill file", even when it's right there in the .ZIP, and called "ABC01 NC DRILL 1-6.drl". 

Seriously, if there's anyone from AllPCB reading this: you really need to sort this out, it's embarrassing. There are files in my .ZIP for every layer of the board, plus the drill drawing and solder paste masks, and ONE more file with "NC DRILL" in the name. What do you think that file might be?! 

I normally copy my board outline onto the solder mask layers with 0.5mm width, so I get a nominal 0.25mm clearance between the edge of the solder mask and the routed edge. This helps ensure that the edge of the solder mask remains smooth even if the routing bit is blunt.

Normally it's accepted without question by PCB fabs, but today it was queried. I don't mind the query, but it would be nice to see some consistency (ie. always query it or never do), rather than have a job delayed unexpectedly as a result of something I've done many times before. It's no effort for me to put "yes, the solder mask layers really are correct" in a note, provided I know in advance that I need to.

My first controlled impedance board is going through production right now. Wish me luck!

[girts]

I'm still getting CAD data rejected because "no NC drill file", even when it's right there in the .ZIP, and called "ABC01 NC DRILL 1-6.drl".

Usually it's a good practice to name files according to DOS requirements, up to 8 chars file name, 3 chars - extension.
 

[AndyC_772]

Why? It's not 1991, either here or in China.

[girts]

Why? It's not 1991, either here or in China.

Compatibility issues.
WEB server which accepts your orders most likely runs some kind of UNIX. A lot of production machines are already running under DOS. 
Did you ever tried to make directory named "prn" or "con" under Windows? Try now, in case of success please let us know immediately!

[Yansi]

So finally my PCBs arrived today!

I have ordered 10pcs 0.8mm 2layer ones.  Order sent on tuesday, came on monday. Just 4 working days. Very impressive. The manufacturing itself took 25 hours according to the AllPCB website flow log.
The package contained 11pcs, with one having a slight defect in the solder mask - guessing a reject  from an optical inspection (?), that passed electrical test (?) though. I have no problem with this, the defect would not be an issue of any sort for manual PCB soldering, is almost invisible.
Regarding the silkscreen: Used a font of 30mil/0.76mm height with a 4.5mil stroke - yes, I like pushing limits when it comes to silkscreen. It is absolutely readable, no problems or misprinted characters. (Some of them are not readable, but I have place those nameholders in places I shouldn't have).
Solder mask and drilling positioning is very precise.
I would like to also note, that the pcb outline seems not to be fully routed and the dimension precision is not the best, but still within sensible tolerance.  Some sides are a bit rough and wiggly - guessing they use a panel with mouse bites on the edges, that are hand ground afterwards.
I am overly very satisfied, and because my friend is a stupid moron, I am placing a second order right away, as he forgot to send my DDS PCB to the local manufacturer. Doh!

Note: This review is not sponsored, neither have I begged for the dollar for placing a good review here. This is just a honest review as I see it based on a single order.

[Monkeh]

WEB server which accepts your orders most likely runs some kind of UNIX.

Not a problem. We're a little more advanced than you give us credit for.

A lot of production machines are already running under DOS.

They can deal with the limitations of their own outdated equipment for themselves.

Did you ever tried to make directory named "prn" or "con" under Windows? Try now, in case of success please let us know immediately!

Yes, Windows is broken by design - I don't see how that makes 8.3 relevant in 2018.

[HwAoRrDk]

The only issue I've had with long filenames is that some PCB manufacturers take the zip file name as a kind of customer job identifier and print it on paperwork, labels, etc. where inevitably there isn't enough space and the text gets cut off or overprints other information.

[tszaboo]

@nandblog, any reason you don't tent your vias?  I believe allpcb charges more $ leaving them untented like that...

Nobody charges for not tented vias. In fact, that is the default for any via, just like the TH components.
I started using not-tented vias for prototypes, because it is easier to modify it.

[Yansi]

The "tented or not tented vias thing" is retarded from the head to toe.  Some of the local manufacturers where I live do even require you to NOT tent any vias on the board, due to "reliability issues, because of trapped chemical from the manufacturing processes". Or some bullshit like this.

They would even charge you for tenting the vias. 

[soubitos]

I received my AllPCB order today... it is the same PCB i got about a month ago from easyeda so i can compare them.
The first noticable thing is, i got 13pcs instead of 10!
Packing was ok, i ordered with registered airmail so it took some extra time so i cannot speak about their fast delivery etc.
I cannot take good close ups of the pcb but i feel sticking with easyeda/jlcpcb ...
The overall feeling of the pcbs is good BUT... HASL surfaces look flatter and "better" on jlcpcb although allpcb seems shiny-er, not to mention silkscreen which is not good on allpcb. 6 of 13 pcbs delivered had almost missing silkscreen on a few components, the outline of screw terminals where interrupted (as if an inkject printer leaves a "line" and the same in several other parts of the pcb..

1st pic is the box (12x12x5cm)
2nd pic side of the box with customs clearance label (green means you dont pay anything but it was passed through customs - stated value on the box was actual amount paid -5.49$-)
3rd all 13 boards
4th one of the 6 boards with the silkscreen issues
5th another of the 6
6th closeup of the allpcb board to the left and jlcpcb to the right, the silkscreen difference is obvious i think and HASL surfaces too, might not show on camera but they really differ.
7th closeup of a good and a not so good allpcb boards..

From all i can tell, they must "inkjet" print the silkscreen...
One last thing, the boards are ok for what i paid for, and more than ok to test a project.

[asmi]

I think you guys are expecting a bit too much from manufacturer who has to cut all corners it can in order to break even with such low prices. You get what you pay for. As long as they are functional, it should be good enough.

[8bitgasm]

@nandblog, any reason you don't tent your vias?  I believe allpcb charges more $ leaving them untented like that...

Nobody charges for not tented vias. In fact, that is the default for any via, just like the TH components.
I started using not-tented vias for prototypes, because it is easier to modify it.

You're right, I must have got confused what I was looking at before.  That's a good idea leaving them un-tented for future modification/testing. Thanks!

[soubitos]

I think you guys are expecting a bit too much from manufacturer who has to cut all corners it can in order to break even with such low prices. You get what you pay for. As long as they are functional, it should be good enough.

I ordered mine when they had the free shipping offer. For that price these boards are more than ok...
If their quality is this though because as you say, they have to cut corners then simply, there is no need to not order with someone else who actually offers better quality, does not cut corners and still is cheaper (much cheaper with their current prices)

Yes, i am becoming a jlcpcb funboy (they play nice and deliver good quality at good prices) and NO as is, i would not order from Allpcb so easy in the future unless for prices like those i ordered this time and only for something i would abuse and keep "in house" or hide deep in some case.... I have not soldered the pcbs yet but but i am curious how they "take" soldering and perhaps some abuse!

Another thing i noticed is the pcb material... looking at the sides of the pcbs, allpcb boards look "whiter" and as if the material is crossed inside in layers. Jlcpcb on the other hand appear darker, almost brownish in color and you barely can tell its layers in there, plus the edges are "smoother"

[alexig]

I have been using Elecrow for the past 6 months but they removed their special pricing for 5x5cm boards so I started looking elsewhere and found Allpcb, decided to order 30 of 5x5cm boards as the price didn't go up by much and with the free DHL delivery I had to give it a go. Order placed on Saturday 3pm, shipped Monday 5pm and received today (Australia times).

I haven't assembled any boards as yet but here are some close ups compared to Elecrow. Don't know how long this free shipping will last but I will keep using them if these boards come out good once assembled, it's very nice to have boards arrive quick.

By the way once you get the order confirmation, they would appreciate it if you placed a review, part of their text says:

> famous electronic forums ( like eevblog.com; diyaudio.com,...etc )

Eevblog is famous


It looks like the solder mask between the micro USB pads didn't come out like they did in the Elecrow PCB. Also some of the pads are slightly cut off due to the holes I'm guessing.





Silkscreen looks better



Vias slightly off center



Same with pads



Also the pcb number on the board is visible, top left of board, where as Elecrow didn't have that

[Yansi]

Yes, I have forgot to mention Allpcb adds a number on your board into the silkscreen.  Some people may not like it, but really I don't care about this.  For this price range, any kind of Chinese PCB prototype house does a very decent job.

[mrpackethead]

If you having tooling strips on yoru boards. ( I mostly do, as i'm running them through PNP machines) they do put their numbers on the tool strip, so its not really a big issue.

[phil from seattle]

@alexig  You will find Allpcb's silkscreen to be hit or miss. Sometimes it is like you got and sometimes it's more like the elecro example you showed. Pretty random. I also find their solder mask registration is off - not terribly so but clearly not centered. I'm about to try a QFN board with them, hoping for "good enough".

[mrpackethead]

Just had a look at a selction of My ALLPCB made boards.  4 layer boards silk screen is always beter than the cheapy 2 layer.  I beat its on a different. line.

[alexig]

The only PCB damage has been a couple of tiny nicks in the solder mask, which is quite thin, but that's by no means unique to AllPCB.

I have to agree that the solder mask is thin, I was just touching up one of the micro USB connectors, put on flux, put on the iron, 2-3 seconds later I saw something odd happening, so I applied the iron again and I could see that the solder was starting to appear on the 16 mil trace. So just have to take extra care when working on these boards.



Checked on a PCB from a different fab, just checked on a 10 mil trace, solder iron directly to it and I kept adding solder to it, it took around 6-8 seconds.

@alexig  You will find Allpcb's silkscreen to be hit or miss. Sometimes it is like you got and sometimes it's more like the elecro example you showed. Pretty random. I also find their solder mask registration is off - not terribly so but clearly not centered. I'm about to try a QFN board with them, hoping for "good enough".

Ah ok, I'm not too worried about it, I can't really tell the difference just looking at it normally.

[AndyC_772]

Safety standards define the required separation between circuits in terms of creepage and clearance, or distance through insulation. Solder mask is never "insulation" for that purpose; it's a convenience to ease assembly, never a safety feature.

[asmi]

My first controlled impedance board is going through production right now. Wish me luck!

Where did you end up ordering, and how much did it cost you (if it's not a secret of course)?

[fourtytwo42]

Thanks for the tip Thats a lot cheaper than dangerious prototypes I usually use!

[AndyC_772]

My first controlled impedance board is going through production right now. Wish me luck!

Where did you end up ordering, and how much did it cost you (if it's not a secret of course)?

From AllPCB. I figured that if their online quote system has a button for 50 Ohm controlled impedance, then I'd try it out.

Boards aren't here yet, they're taking much longer to fabricate. Watch this space.

[alexig]

Not that really matters but just wondering, has anyone ever had their silkscreen text size changed by ALLPCB or any PCB house before?

I had a few bits of text around the board and it seems that only one was enlarged by ~0.1mm which meant one letter was cut off the board, comparing to the files I supplied the letters don't line up to where they should have. Strange part is, there was text next to it which was closer to both sides of the board that remained untouched, odd.

[fourtytwo42]

I cant say I have but possibly you infringed some requirement of there's like linesize or board edge keepout ?

[urosg]

I must say that I tried quite a few Chinese PCB Manufacturers and with time I guess they all got sloppier, for now I am sticking with AllPcb for my low-power, low-frequency boards.

Silkscreen placement is on spot / even placed a couple of test areas on the board to test this out (i.e. text on copper layer and the same text on overlay).
Solder mask has also great placement; a while ago I had a couple of boards manufactured locally and the solder mask was terrible - out of place, etched through, ...

For my boards that have more special requirements I have them produced by MultiCircuitBoards in Germany, price is reasonable, fab time also.

With AllPcb I have noticed that they raised their prices and extended their fab time, but for now the quality does not suffer so I am prepared to pay more and take the extended fab time into account.

Also their framed SMT stencils are great.

[wasyoungonce]

Ordered PCBs from all PCB 12 Apr...received 16th Apr. 

Nothing special just some PCBs knocked up to replace aging Royel Soldering station circuits, all analogue.  Just under $27 Aust for QTY 10 (I received 12) PCBs, double sided, free shipping, order to in my hands 4 days!  Wow!  The PCBs are fine no issues all parts fit silkscreen and mask all fine.

I won't indulge in their "Social marketing campaign" but just to say "damn" that's cheap, quick and good.

Oh they are limited to 6mm hole maximum or extra costs.  I needed a larger hole to fit a Pot so to keep costs low I just let them do a centring hole for me to finish off.

To top it off...my PC crashed last nite and it won't boot, appears to be a Mboard or CPU issue.  It was old so preying my HDD is ok as my latest CAD files will be lost.  Making new PC now...Grrrrr.

[mrpackethead]

Dont make holes bigger than 6mm by making holes.  Make circular cutouts by routing them. No additional charge.

Ordered PCBs from all PCB 12 Apr...received 16th Apr. 

Nothing special just some PCBs knocked up to replace aging Royel Soldering station circuits, all analogue.  Just under $27 Aust for QTY 10 (I received 12) PCBs, double sided, free shipping, order to in my hands 4 days!  Wow!  The PCBs are fine no issues all parts fit silkscreen and mask all fine.

I won't indulge in their "Social marketing campaign" but just to say "damn" that's cheap, quick and good.

Oh they are limited to 6mm hole maximum or extra costs.  I needed a larger hole to fit a Pot so to keep costs low I just let them do a centring hole for me to finish off.

To top it off...my PC crashed last nite and it won't boot, appears to be a Mboard or CPU issue.  It was old so preying my HDD is ok as my latest CAD files will be lost.  Making new PC now...Grrrrr.

[wasyoungonce]

Dont make holes bigger than 6mm by making holes.  Make circular cutouts by routing them. No additional charge.

I actually removed the pot tab "mill layer" .....I was unsure of their charges on Mill layer

[mikeselectricstuff]

Just tried Allpcb on a new order as JLCPCB just totally screwed up by cancelling an order without telling me..
wo PCBs, with one slightly non-standard build (front panels with no copper)  to see how they deal with it

[mikeselectricstuff]

Initial communication not promising - sent gerber layers for just outline and soldermask, which they seem to be having trouble understanding 
Just sent a photo of a mockup with marker-pen soldermask, let's see how that goes..

[mrpackethead]

Mike use the words.

"MAKE EXACTLY AS PER THE GERBER FILE.  MAKE NO MODIFICATION. THIS IS NON-STANDARD PCB DESIGN"

[hugeone]

I have ordered many boards from them (50-60 designs) so far no problems.

[8bitgasm]

Anybody having trouble seeing the fabrication flow progress now on the website? Always worked in the past but now when I mouse over "Flow Progress" nothing appears. 

[TJ232]

Anybody having trouble seeing the fabrication flow progress now on the website? Always worked in the past but now when I mouse over "Flow Progress" nothing appears. 

29Apr-1May - Labor day holiday?

[alexig]

Just to keep this thread updated, I was about to place an order and found their prices have gone up a little bit.
For a 20x20 board - 30 pcs, was $15, now $20 (+$5)
For a 50x50 board - 50 pcs, was $27, now $35 (+$8)

There was a way around this, if you have ordered before, you could re-order the same boards for the same price but it looks like that method has an error now.

[luiHS]

 

I was ordering all my PCBs to ALLPCB for a long time, until I discovered JLCPCB, they are quite cheaper and equally fast and quality product.

[Yansi]

Just to keep this thread updated, I was about to place an order and found their prices have gone up a little bit.
For a 20x20 board - 30 pcs, was $15, now $20 (+$5)
For a 50x50 board - 50 pcs, was $27, now $35 (+$8)

There was a way around this, if you have ordered before, you could re-order the same boards for the same price but it looks like that method has an error now.

Yeah, prices going steeply up now.  Just wanted to order a 5pcs 75x60 pcbs and the cost was $21 !  So I have switched to JLCPCB too and used the cheap "registered airmail" option (23 days stated) which is slow. But for this I don't care, as I will be waiting for some other stuff like enclosure and cables from aliexpress anyway.

[mrpackethead]

4 layer+ boards still seem better value at Allpcb.  2 layer are cheaper at JL

[cracked_machine]

After many months of using allpcb.com, I order a new pcb today and found the shipping charges were now mandatory (to the UK). They also had some xmas discount on, but it ended up being more expensive than usual...

Hopefully this is just temporary

[zero9]

They dont offer anymore free DHL shipping and thats why I will not use them anymore for proto.
They were only special with free shipping offer, otherwise - build quality was decent, but lead time were good. For almost the same price (DHL) You can get boards from WellPCB - with far more better build quality.
 

[cracked_machine]

Ah thats a shame. While I don't expect free shipping, it was the one thing that set them apart from the rest of the pack.

Thanks for the tip.    I will shop around for a bit.

[Mr. Scram]

They dont offer anymore free DHL shipping and thats why I will not use them anymore for proto.
They were only special with free shipping offer, otherwise - build quality was decent, but lead time were good. For almost the same price (DHL) You can get boards from WellPCB - with far more better build quality.

Can you elaborate on what's better?

[cracked_machine]

Now DHL have told me there is an import charge. What cost me £20 total just last week, is now costing me over £60.

If HR Customs is trying to drive me back to using UK fab houses....it's probably going to work. I could try another Chinese company, but I'm not sure I want to to take the risk or deal with the hassle.  Looks like the party is over, for me at least 

[AndyC_772]

If you can find a UK supplier which will make prototype boards for anything like £60, do please let me know. The closest I've found is PCB Train, but last time I used them (Chinese new year) the cost was an order of magnitude higher than AllPCB.

The sad thing is, although I'm sure most of us would happily pay 'a bit' more for a local supplier, 'a bit' isn't an option. Buying small quantity prototype boards locally is stupidly, ridiculously, disproportionately more, and UK suppliers don't even bother to try and compete. I don't blame them; they really don't have a hope given how labour intensive small batch prototypes are.

The irony is that the availability of inexpensive, fast turnaround prototype PCBs from China means that I in turn have been able to offer a similarly fast turnaround, relatively low cost prototype service to my own customers. This last year I've done good business hand assembling the first few samples of various jobs, and delivering working prototypes instead of just CAD data, which would otherwise have been uneconomic for me to do.

Ironically, this means that *more* manufacturing value has remained in the UK, given that the alternative would have been PCB fabrication and assembly in a Chinese factory.

[mrpackethead]

I echo Andys' comments.   The availiablity of low cost pcbs ( even with shipping costs ) that are of good enough quality and mostly are very timely actually means i can do things that i would have never done previously..   10 or 20 dollars more for freight, is not a show stopper.

[Yansi]

The sad thing is, although I'm sure most of us would happily pay 'a bit' more for a local supplier, 'a bit' isn't an option. Buying small quantity prototype boards locally is stupidly, ridiculously, disproportionately more, and UK suppliers don't even bother to try and compete. I don't blame them; they really don't have a hope given how labour intensive small batch prototypes are.

Bullshit. They are just as labour intensive as any other pcbs to make.  You don't even need to make the films anymore these days, they directly digitally expose pcbs, no films.

Any larger than very small pcb manufacturer will have processes highly automated. An those parts of technological process where human intervention is required, does not really depend on whether it is a prototype or a large batch.

...yet the local fabs has enough insolence to say "we need to make the prototype service more expensive due to the raw material prices has gone higher".  (and then they publish on the same website, they not need to make films no more, due to upgrade with a machine for direct digital PCB exposure, with up to 8000DPI resolution). 

[AndyC_772]

Tip: if you're going to call BS on something, your argument becomes a lot stronger if you can actually prove as much.

In this case, it's obvious how to do so: just find a supplier outside China that charges no more for a small batch (say, 10-20 pcs) than AllPCB and their ilk. If you can, I'll happily admit I'm wrong, and start using them.

In the meantime, is it not obvious that the fixed costs associated with any PCB job become relatively more significant when the job is small?

[Yansi]

Sorry, but where did I write that local suppliers are cheaper or as cheap as china? Can you please take the time to point that out?