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Offline kylehunter

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Assembly line update
« on: July 04, 2019, 01:29:35 pm »
Hey all!

So this is quite the update since my last post/thread https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/assembly-line-thoughts-ddm-novastar/

That thread started with, and this whole adventure started with my company looking for a simple reflow oven to help with in-house prototyping and testing. After some great advice both here and on SMTNet, we decided against the DDM Novastar route. Instead we decided to go full on with an SMT line.

Our line consists of a DEK Horizon 265 printer, a Assembleon Opal Xii, and a Heller 1500SX oven. Most are early 2000's vintage, with the pick and place being the newest at 2008 vintage.

We received the equipment on May 23rd, May 29th it was wired and ducted in, and we had training on May 30th for 3 days.

Since that time, we have completed a production run of around 175 boards, and are about to start on a 1000 board run soon.

It definitely seems like our experience getting setup has been quite a bit different than most people have starting out. Especially after seeing all the horror stories that are in the pick and place lifestyle thread. It has of course been a massive learning curve, and still have a lot to learn, but it really has been quite smooth.

The fact that we finished the first production run within two weeks of having the equipment delivered is better than I could have ever dreamed. There have definitely been hiccups along the way, and I expect to have ongoing issues, but so far it absolutely seems like it was a great decision.

Issues we have had:
- The oven produces way more heat than I thought, requiring a second AC.
- Several Opal nozzles couldn't hold a vaccum, we are currently replacing them.
- The screen cleaner for the DEK is too high, requiring us to put a spacer on the screen. Trying to figure out a fix for that.

I genuinely would like to thank everyone on this forum so much for all the advice and suggestions. Even the people who said it wasn't worth it and a horrible idea!

I'll try and post some updates here as we go, as well as on my YouTube channel. Just posted a video going over the line: https://youtu.be/LiNGoku8Mqc





« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 01:32:42 pm by kylehunter »
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2019, 07:53:39 pm »

It definitely seems like our experience getting setup has been quite a bit different than most people have starting out. Especially after seeing all the horror stories that are in the pick and place lifestyle thread. It has of course been a massive learning curve, and still have a lot to learn, but it really has been quite smooth.
If you buy a junk machine, or a worn-out machine, then things may  not go smoothly.  If you buy a good machine that is still in decent condition, then everything OUGHT to go much better.

I bought a well-used Philips CSM84 (so a generation older than your Opal) but it was in good condition when it arrived.
I did not get any training with it, but did get an operator's manual.  I now have 3 different vintages of this manual, and it is obvious the first one was a HIDEOUS translation from Japanese to Dutch to English.  The later ones are a LOT better.

Anyway, the machine had their feeder and placement files still in it, I rigged up a serial cable and downloaded the placement file.  With the help of the manual, the file format was quite obvious.  I wrote a program to convert my CAD package's placement format to the Philips, loaded it into the machine, and made my first board less than two weeks after the machine arrived.  I had never even SEEN a P&P machine before then.

I went through a LOT of issues related to proper solder paste stencil apertures, what pastes are good and what are awful, etc.  And, over the last 12 years, I've had a few breakdowns on the P&P machine.  Only one was serious, all the others were pretty minor stuff (cracked hoses, an intermittent conveyor sensor, etc.)

My machine doesn't have the vision option, and I really DO miss that on fine pitch parts.

Jon
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2019, 08:20:58 pm »
Sounds like you had someone come and install and train you?   While it is possible to eventually work out how the machines work without that. It sure is a lot easier to have some help!    Those  Assemblon / Yamaha machines are great.      And a decent printer.

Are you able to give us a rough idea of what it cost?
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Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2019, 02:15:19 pm »

It definitely seems like our experience getting setup has been quite a bit different than most people have starting out. Especially after seeing all the horror stories that are in the pick and place lifestyle thread. It has of course been a massive learning curve, and still have a lot to learn, but it really has been quite smooth.
If you buy a junk machine, or a worn-out machine, then things may  not go smoothly.  If you buy a good machine that is still in decent condition, then everything OUGHT to go much better.

I bought a well-used Philips CSM84 (so a generation older than your Opal) but it was in good condition when it arrived.
I did not get any training with it, but did get an operator's manual.  I now have 3 different vintages of this manual, and it is obvious the first one was a HIDEOUS translation from Japanese to Dutch to English.  The later ones are a LOT better.

Anyway, the machine had their feeder and placement files still in it, I rigged up a serial cable and downloaded the placement file.  With the help of the manual, the file format was quite obvious.  I wrote a program to convert my CAD package's placement format to the Philips, loaded it into the machine, and made my first board less than two weeks after the machine arrived.  I had never even SEEN a P&P machine before then.

I went through a LOT of issues related to proper solder paste stencil apertures, what pastes are good and what are awful, etc.  And, over the last 12 years, I've had a few breakdowns on the P&P machine.  Only one was serious, all the others were pretty minor stuff (cracked hoses, an intermittent conveyor sensor, etc.)

My machine doesn't have the vision option, and I really DO miss that on fine pitch parts.

Jon

Yeah that's what I gathered in my research as well. It seems like virtually all of the horror stories that people spoke about were with old machines that hadn't been maintained, or bought online (eBay) without testing or servicing.

I'm planning on doing the same thing going from CAD to P&P. Does your machine use VIOS/Vios txt files as well? If so, could you send me the file format specifications that you have? I know most things in the Vios txt file, but not all. Especially linking the parts to the database parts.

Sounds like you had someone come and install and train you?   While it is possible to eventually work out how the machines work without that. It sure is a lot easier to have some help!    Those  Assemblon / Yamaha machines are great.      And a decent printer.

Are you able to give us a rough idea of what it cost?

Yeah we did. Luckily we live near a company called PFI of Florida: https://pfipcb.com/ (thanks to @reckless for the referral). They fully serviced/refurbished the machines, and did our training.

So for the printer, pick and place, oven, two straight conveyors, one turning conveyor, fume filtration system, delivery, setup/calibration, and 4 days of training it was around $50k.

In my research it seems like It was a touch high as compared to the machines themselves. But considering everything else that was included, it was more than fair in my book. Especially since none of use had ever touched an SMT line before, it would have taken months to get up to speed without them. Another great thing about them is that they offer support and maintenance on the equipment going forward. Since they are only an hour or so away, it is incredibly economical for them to handle all that.

What's crazy wrt service costs, is I reached out to Heller about some grease questions, and they wanted to quote me for a PM service. For one day of service it was quoted at like $4k including travel.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2019, 11:46:13 pm »

I'm planning on doing the same thing going from CAD to P&P. Does your machine use VIOS/Vios txt files as well? If so, could you send me the file format specifications that you have? I know most things in the Vios txt file, but not all. Especially linking the parts to the database parts.

<quote>

Vios is a nightmare of a file format! Its really pedantic. I've written a bunch of python to generate it, but its still not perfect, and i still use the machines them selves to do the last step of the process.

in my generated vios files, i only go as far as 'naming' the part, i dont' try to set all the specifications for the individual parts.        As i've added new parts to the machine, i've added the to the machines component database on the machine..    After i load the generated Vios onto the machines,  I use the parts lookup function to let the machine do all the changes.




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Offline jmelson

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2019, 01:55:02 am »
I'm planning on doing the same thing going from CAD to P&P. Does your machine use VIOS/Vios txt files as well?
I think the VIOS file is for vision setup on the newer machines.  Mine has "UFOS", which has 3 parts.
There is a machine or "MCH' file for machine setup (basic machine configuration, offsets between cameras and nozzles, feeder and mech. alignment position, etc.)  There is a "FDR" file which defines the feeder type, size, and also trays.
And, then there's the mount file for each board, which has X Y R coords, feeder, and which nozzle to use.
If you have the vision hardware, there's another file.
Quote
If so, could you send me the file format specifications that you have? I know most things in the Vios txt file, but not all. Especially linking the parts to the database parts.
I'm not sure this will do you much good.  My machine is a FULL generation older than yours, and has no vision.
So, I'm sure the mount file format will be different.  If you have any placement file still in the machine, it should be easy to download that from the machine and pick it apart.
It will start with a header of half a dozen lines or so that define the starting coordinates of the board, where the fiducials are and their size, and then info on multiple boards within a panel, if set up that way.
Then, it will have M0 and a bunch of numbers.  Each line is one component to mount, and there will be a string of numbers at the end that are a coded field.  It starts with the nozzle number and ends with the feeder number.
Some of the digits in the middle specify the vision template to use, I think.

Anyway, you can open the mount file on the machine itself with the "data" screen, then the "mount" screen, and it will show most of the data just as it appears in the raw file.  You can read the files from the machine via the serial port with the command :
@READ B<ABC>
where ABC is the same board name as seen in the "data" screen.  You can send a file to the machine with :
@WRITE B<ABC>

You can read or write the feeder setup with :
@READ FDR
@WRITE FDR

and you can read the machine file with:
@READ MCH

Jon
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 02:20:43 am by jmelson »
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2019, 04:10:41 am »
Yes, the VIOS files are quite different.    I've pmed kyle with some details. I reverse engineered VIOS a while back.  Its doable, but it is painful. 

Attached is a VIOS file
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Offline jmelson

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2019, 04:31:16 pm »
Yes, the VIOS files are quite different.
Yes, this is a bit more readable than my UFOS files, but probably a lot more flexible, too.
It looks like maybe the feeder and placement info is in the same file?

On my older machine (CSM84) there are 3 totally separate files.  The MCH file just has machine configuration and offsets, travel limits, etc.  The FDR file has info on each feeder (location, tape size, number of pushes to advance by one component, whether to use the alignment station, and then a bunch more fields if that is a waffle tray (X and Y part pitch, X and Y number of parts per row/column, what to do on a mispick (bump or return to tray) and such stuff.

The board file has the board origin, fiducial locations and size, panel info if needed, and then the list of parts to be placed.

These files must be saved and loaded separately.  The machine can store about a dozen board files, but only one MCH and one FDR file.  That's all in battery-backed static RAM.

Jon
Jon
 

Offline Reckless

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2019, 06:40:44 am »
Congratulations, $50k is decent with training/support and hopefully some warranty and loads of feeders(feeders are the most expensive part of the deal many times).  Assembleons (Yamaha GEM) are good machines.  My assembleon sapphire is older uses vios and has cameras but I haven't used it in production yet (need to get 8mm feeders).

Somehow in place of getting yamaha feeders I ended up getting a Fuji CP-642 turret machine gun chip shooter which I love (ran me $2k with 400 feeders, spares, accesories). My 0402 parts are finally going down fast.  For anyone placing hundreds of thousands of 0402s daily turrets are the way to go (40k cph). Still tweaking the nozzles/feeders as they weren't run in 5+ years.  We are using dry lube to coat feeders.

I have a DEK Infinity (similar to 265).  I like DEK, I got mine for $400.  I just got 3 MPM UP2500 DOS based, which I prefer but haven't had time to setup.  Not sure how prone to failure MPM is.  The ones I got are made of steel and seem to be working after 20 years just fine.  My DEK hard drive went down and it was a headache to fix.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 06:42:36 am by Reckless »
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2019, 09:28:33 am »
I can never remember what the nubmers were called;

Opal = YV100??
Saphire = ??
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Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2019, 12:13:59 pm »
Congratulations, $50k is decent with training/support and hopefully some warranty and loads of feeders(feeders are the most expensive part of the deal many times).  Assembleons (Yamaha GEM) are good machines.  My assembleon sapphire is older uses vios and has cameras but I haven't used it in production yet (need to get 8mm feeders).

Somehow in place of getting yamaha feeders I ended up getting a Fuji CP-642 turret machine gun chip shooter which I love (ran me $2k with 400 feeders, spares, accesories). My 0402 parts are finally going down fast.  For anyone placing hundreds of thousands of 0402s daily turrets are the way to go (40k cph). Still tweaking the nozzles/feeders as they weren't run in 5+ years.  We are using dry lube to coat feeders.

I have a DEK Infinity (similar to 265).  I like DEK, I got mine for $400.  I just got 3 MPM UP2500 DOS based, which I prefer but haven't had time to setup.  Not sure how prone to failure MPM is.  The ones I got are made of steel and seem to be working after 20 years just fine.  My DEK hard drive went down and it was a headache to fix.

Thanks!

Yeah, forgot to add that with my previous post. It came with a couple hundred feeders. A lot of 8mm, with 20 or so 16s, 32s, and a few vibratory feeders as well.
 

Offline Reckless

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2019, 02:55:20 pm »
Sapphire is YV112
http://www.twentech.com/info/placementmachines.html

Which feeders did he include?  CL feeders are supposed to be much better than previous generation.
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2019, 07:09:23 pm »
It seems all the Gem series are 3-phase input.  What kind of initial power stage do they have?  Do they just rectify the mains and feed DC supplies, or does it have a 3-phase transformer and several rectifier stages?  I'm wondering, as I only have single-phase 240 V available here.  I'll keep running my CSM84 as long as I can, but I might eventually want to upgrade to something newer with vision.

Thanks,

Jon
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2019, 10:28:37 pm »
Sapphire is YV112
http://www.twentech.com/info/placementmachines.html

Which feeders did he include?  CL feeders are supposed to be much better than previous generation.

Yep all CL. He threw in like 20 of the old style because he had a tough time selling them. Seems like every one wants the CL style
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2019, 01:12:08 am »
You might see some 'FV' feeders as well, and some of them can be  interchanged with the CL.  However they will be very old..   The main source of drama with these PNPs is Feeders.   

I have bought clone feeders from ksunsmt out of CHina, and have found them to be really good. No problem with their product..  8mm feeder is around US$60, a bit less in quanity.  They also have lots of other spare parts, like nozzles and belts and stuff.    They have been a godsend for me, keeping my machines going.
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Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2019, 01:30:50 am »
2 month update!

So we have used the assembly line primarily with our one main client for LED boards. We have assembled around 600 of the smaller boards with around 80 LEDs each, and 20 of their really big panels, with upwards of 600 LEDs each.

The bad:
1) When people kept saying how important the printing portion of assembly was, they weren't kidding! First stencil had one LEDs apertures too big, had to have it remade. Our cleaner was adjusted too high and it hit the screen, had to recalibrate that. The rising table wasn't perfectly even, still need to fully calibrate that.
2) Our assembly line is in a small 500 sqft room, in hot and humid Florida. We really couldn't vent the fumes outside, or the negative pressure would bring inside tons of hot, humid, and dirty air. So we use a purex air filtration system, exhausting the filtered air inside, which works great. But, we can't keep the temperature under control. Wee have a 2.5 ton mini split, and now a 1.5 ton wall unit, and even with both fully maxed out, within a shift of 6 hours the temp goes from 72f-80f. Not good for paste, and this is with leaded, lead free will obviously be worse with the elevated temps. Not sure of a solution yet.
3) Feeders are annoying. Advice I wish I had known when starting, is if the pick and place misses the part on the same feeder more than a few times, and you can't figure out why, don't bother, swap out with a different feeder, and service that one later. Once we got a solid group of the CL feeders, they work flawlessly.
4) The Opal has a really really weird bug currently, in which e every other board we have to stop and restart the program, or it will misplace every part by around 5mm. It's really just a nuisance, as it only takes like 30 seconds extra each board, but you have to be vigilant, or you ruin a board.

The good:
1) Other than the one pick and place issue, that opal is an absolute tank. It just flat out works. We placed boards that are 20" long, it automatically optimized for the nozzles it can reach. We also do 30" boards by Flipping the board around, no problem at all.
2) When dialed in, the printer works well, and has the 2Di enabled. Haven't gotten around to testing it yet, but it seems nice.
3) Thanks to all the help here with the VIOS files, I have been able to start getting a system together to go from CAD - > Opal pretty fast. It's become quicker for us to use the pick and place for passives on our prototype designs (our main core business) than it is to hand assemble them. We then hand place the larger, less used components.

2 month conclusion:

There has definitely been a sharp learning curve due to the massive amount of "stuff" that is going on, but overall, the equipment has performed great. If I knew that this is how the equipment would have operated before starting, this would have been a no brainer to do. Hopefully we can figure out the AC issue, as it really is becoming one of the biggest issues we are facing, as the paste gets very difficult to use when the temps go up.

Biggest surprise is the sheer amount of stress that this has brought in. I may have been adequately prepared for the technical side, but I was not at all prepared for the mental side. Just the fact that the entire line can come to a screeching halt if one belt, pulley, heater, etc. breaks takes a toll on you. I assume it'll get better in time, but man, I have been struggling handling it sometimes!

So, I guess that's about it. Any questions/advice/feedback is always welcome!
 
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2019, 02:23:35 am »
1) When people kept saying how important the printing portion of assembly was, they weren't kidding! First stencil had one LEDs apertures too big, had to have it remade. Our cleaner was adjusted too high and it hit the screen, had to recalibrate that. The rising table wasn't perfectly even, still need to fully calibrate that.

THis ^^ is so important.   Do not under-estimate this.  Put lots of effort into getitng your printing process nailed.  If your PNP is running well,  bad stencils will account for 95% of your problems.  It looks so simple...  but this is were so many people come unstuck.

Quote
3) Feeders are annoying. Advice I wish I had known when starting, is if the pick and place misses the part on the same feeder more than a few times, and you can't figure out why, don't bother, swap out with a different feeder, and service that one later. Once we got a solid group of the CL feeders, they work flawlessly.

This can also be releated to the paper tape and state of the palstic leader tape.


Quote
4) The Opal has a really really weird bug currently, in which e every other board we have to stop and restart the program, or it will misplace every part by around 5mm. It's really just a nuisance, as it only takes like 30 seconds extra each board, but you have to be vigilant, or you ruin a board.

That most def sounds like a setup/config issue and not a bug.   at 5mm it almost sounds like your origin is wrong.  The location pin is 0,0, which is 5mm up and 5mm right of where the boards bottom corner will be (  are your machine running left to right, or right to left?  mine are right to left ).

3) Thanks to all the help here with the VIOS files, I have been able to start getting a system together to go from CAD - > Opal pretty fast. It's become quicker for us to use the pick and place for passives on our prototype designs (our main core business) than it is to hand assemble them. We then hand place the larger, less used components.

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Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2019, 09:42:11 am »
That most def sounds like a setup/config issue and not a bug.   at 5mm it almost sounds like your origin is wrong.  The location pin is 0,0, which is 5mm up and 5mm right of where the boards bottom corner will be (  are your machine running left to right, or right to left?  mine are right to left ).

100% Agree, but it's still impossible for me to figure out why it is doing it with such consistency. Line goes left to right. Here's a post I made on another forum about it:

"
1) A board goes in, all components are placed perfectly.

2) Next board goes in, all components are around 5mm to the +x, and 5mm to the -y.

This was 100% consistent, every other board would be perfectly placed, and the others would not be.

The "fix" that we did is, we placed the first board correctly. The next board when it was clamped, we hit the e-stop, reset and dumped the parts on the head, and conveyed the board out. The next board would be placed perfect.

Any thoughts? It's just crazy how it is so perfectly consistent. Didn't matter if the bad board had it's fiducials looked at or not, placed any components or not, once we stopped it and reset, the next board always worked.

I don't have another board/panel to test with, so I don't know if this is an issue with the machine, or just my board program, but either way, I don't see a cause. It seems like there is some crazy setting that the machine is following, because it doesn't seem like a "bug", it seems like it is doing exactly what it wants to do.
"
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2019, 09:17:44 pm »
does your board have a location pin hole in it?

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Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2019, 11:40:41 pm »
does your board have a location pin hole in it?

Like for a tooling pin? No, it uses edge clamps.

So we did 35 panels. Every odd board was perfect, every even board was wrong. So clearly it truly is a setting or something, since it is 100% consistent.

Also, on the bad boards, it checks for fiducials, and seems to find them fine
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2019, 12:42:00 am »
Is the location pin, being activated when the boards are being shuttled in?    It might be that your boards are not not finding the end stop, and getting caught on it..  ( which would place it 5mm out ).   If you are using edge clamps for locating the board on the conveyor, then make sure you've got the location pin turned off in your program as well.   

I'd highly recommend using a tooling hole, and not rely on the edge clamps as its a lot more accurate, and reliable.  It does mean that your Pcbs have to be designed to include it.  For panels, i always put a 10mm tooling strip on each side.  This also helps me as i can set up the panel for stenciling a lot more accurately as well.

Does your panel have panel fids? or just board fids?



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Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2019, 12:52:28 am »
Is the location pin, being activated when the boards are being shuttled in?    It might be that your boards are not not finding the end stop, and getting caught on it..  ( which would place it 5mm out ).   If you are using edge clamps for locating the board on the conveyor, then make sure you've got the location pin turned off in your program as well.   

I'd highly recommend using a tooling hole, and not rely on the edge clamps as its a lot more accurate, and reliable.  It does mean that your Pcbs have to be designed to include it.  For panels, i always put a 10mm tooling strip on each side.  This also helps me as i can set up the panel for stenciling a lot more accurately as well.

Does your panel have panel fids? or just board fids?

If that was the case, either it would find the fids fine, and there would be no issue, or it wouldn't find them, and error out. The boards make it to the end stop even when it places wrong.

Panel and board has fids, only used panel fids, as it was plenty accurate.

Also, if anything with the tooling was goofy, it would be a random error I assume, not exactly every other?
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2019, 08:14:00 am »


Also, if anything with the tooling was goofy, it would be a random error I assume, not exactly every other?

Very hard to tell without seeing it.  But i'm picking its something with your machines clamping.




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Offline jmelson

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2019, 07:05:50 pm »

3) Feeders are annoying. Advice I wish I had known when starting, is if the pick and place misses the part on the same feeder more than a few times, and you can't figure out why, don't bother, swap out with a different feeder, and service that one later. Once we got a solid group of the CL feeders, they work flawlessly.
I got a homemade feeder stand from the guy that sold me the machine.  I added a bridge over the top with a crosshair right over the component location, and calibrated a bunch of my feeders to deliver the part to the same location.  This helped greatly.  Also, a little speck of dirt on the bottom of the feeder will throw it out of line.
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4) The Opal has a really really weird bug currently, in which e every other board we have to stop and restart the program, or it will misplace every part by around 5mm. It's really just a nuisance, as it only takes like 30 seconds extra each board, but you have to be vigilant, or you ruin a board.
Wow, that is really annoying.  Is this on all programs, or just some of them?  I'd go over your programs carefully, looking especially at anything related to fiducial detection and panel coordinates.  it sounds like something is causing the fiducials to not be located properly.  You really want to have the fiducials in the middle of nothing on the board so it doesn't erroneously pick up some other mark as the fiducial.

I don't have vision, so my machine searches around with a single-pixel camera scheme to locate fiducials.  At least with that, you can actually see what it is doing while searching for them.  I guess on your machine it shows what it is doing on the screen, but it all happens very fast.

Jon
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2019, 07:13:40 pm »
So we did 35 panels. Every odd board was perfect, every even board was wrong. So clearly it truly is a setting or something, since it is 100% consistent.
Wait, every odd BOARD on each PANEL was off?  Are you sure your panel offsets are correct?  Maybe the board manufacturer screwed up the offsets, and every other one is different?  Oh, but that would show up with the stencil, unless the board house made that, too.

Is there any data recorded on the fiducial offsets that were taken?  As far as I know on my CSM84, there is no place to see the coordinates of the fiducials after a board is run.  That could be really helpful it diagnosing something like this.

Anyway, even on my machine, you can specify the fiducial diameter and the search area.  There is a cryptic note that specifying a larger fiducial than actually exists on the board improves accuracy.  Possibly some playing around with the fiducial parameters might improve registration of the fiducials.  there may also be brightness/contrast settings that can help.

Jon
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2019, 07:20:49 pm »
OK, reading more, it sounds like what you have is alternate PANELS are getting mis-registered.  What I'd do is make a one-component test program.  Put a piece of double-stick tape on the board, and run it, and check alignment.  keep working with this until the alternate misregistration issue is solved.  I don't know how much debug ability you have in the vision system for identifying how the fiducials are picked up, but clearly something is VERY wrong.

Oh, you say you DON'T use a panel fiducial.  Maybe this screws up the software, and it requires you to do a panel fiducial first?  I could easily believe this could happen, and such a case was NOT properly TESTED by Yamaha.  They tested it with just ONE panel with no panel fiducials, it worked fine, and then never ran a second panel.
Totally believable if that was a non-standard way of running, that they never though to test it that way.  Certainly worth a shot.  Hope you have SOMETHING on the panel you can use as a fiducial.

Jon
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2019, 07:42:44 pm »
on pretty much everything i do, i have panel fids, and pcb fids.    It is possible to run with just pcb fids, or in fact no fids at all.

The fact that is a 5mm offset every 2nd time is suggesting to me that something in the conveyer system is not being reset when the 2nd board comes through.  A program restart will bring everthing back to zero.

I dont' rely on the board clamp, and always use the location pins. 

Have you checked that the machine actually thinks the location pin is at 0,0?

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Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2019, 08:48:29 pm »
OK, sorry for the confusion! Yes it's really hard to explain this..

So, the panels that I am running consist of 9 individual PCBs. There are fids on the panels, and on the PCBs. From CAD, I exported the centroid data on the entire panel itself. So in essence, the pick and place treats the ENTIRE panel as a single board. I did this because it is so easy to export out the data on one file, and I don't have overly fine pitch components, so I don't need the PCB fids. But if I ever need, I can use the PCB fids and just set them as a local fiducial.

Every ODD PANEL gets missplaced (0, 1, 3), while every even panel is fine. I'm sorry, but I don't see how it is possible that the conveyor or anything is the problem. The machine finds the fiducials every time, so even if the panel wasn't on the rails properly, the fiducials would either error, or they would still be found, and it would correct for it. Also, it wouldn't be every odd board, it would be random.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2019, 09:22:28 pm »

So, the panels that I am running consist of 9 individual PCBs. There are fids on the panels, and on the PCBs. From CAD, I exported the centroid data on the entire panel itself.

This is not a good idea, for a whole bunch of reasons.  The first being when you get X-outs ( failed pcbs in a panel ), you'll have no way of dealing to that, except for not using that entire panel.     You should be just doing one pcb, then setting up the panelisation data ( offsets, rotations etc ).     If you dont' accept X-outs from your pcb-fab you'll be payhing a premium you dont need.  You can even set up ignore markers on the pcb, so the machine will check to see which pcbs on the panel to miss.

The machine will first look for panel fids. ( once ), and then will look for each set of pcb fids.

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Every ODD PANEL gets missplaced (0, 1, 3), while every even panel is fine. I'm sorry, but I don't see how it is possible that the conveyor or anything is the problem. The machine finds the fiducials every time, so even if the panel wasn't on the rails properly, the fiducials would either error, or they would still be found, and it would correct for it. Also, it wouldn't be every odd board, it would be random.

Becuase your machine is not cleanign up the conveyor after it transports the first board.  Resetting it, forces it to. 

Check. (a) is your location pin at 0,0    ( as the machine see's it ).  (b) are you using the push in at the end?

I would export my cad data as a single pcb, and set up  panel config.. use both panle and pcb fids.   



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Offline jmelson

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2019, 07:14:40 pm »
OK, sorry for the confusion! Yes it's really hard to explain this..

So, the panels that I am running consist of 9 individual PCBs. There are fids on the panels, and on the PCBs. From CAD, I exported the centroid data on the entire panel itself. So in essence, the pick and place treats the ENTIRE panel as a single board. I did this because it is so easy to export out the data on one file, and I don't have overly fine pitch components, so I don't need the PCB fids. But if I ever need, I can use the PCB fids and just set them as a local fiducial.
OH, OK, only NOW do I understand what you are doing.
So, it only picks up 2 (or 3) fiducials for the whole panel, then.  This is how I do my boards, so far.  So, no board data, only panel fiducial data.
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Every ODD PANEL gets missplaced (0, 1, 3), while every even panel is fine. I'm sorry, but I don't see how it is possible that the conveyor or anything is the problem. The machine finds the fiducials every time, so even if the panel wasn't on the rails properly, the fiducials would either error, or they would still be found, and it would correct for it. Also, it wouldn't be every odd board, it would be random.
Well, check the field of view of the camera, and the settings for fiducial recognition, to see if there is any possibility of it picking up something else in the camera image and misidentifying the centroid of the fiducial.  Are you absolutely sure it is EXACTLY every other panel?  That's why I suggested a one-component test build with double-sided tape.  If it truly is, EXACTLY every other board, then it pretty much has to be some kind of software bug.  Do you have any sample programs from the machine's previous owner?  Maybe there's something in your placement file that is triggering this foulup.

Jon
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2019, 04:51:49 am »
Well, check the field of view of the camera, and the settings for fiducial recognition, to see if there is any possibility of it picking up something else in the camera image and misidentifying the centroid of the fiducial.  Are you absolutely sure it is EXACTLY every other panel?  That's why I suggested a one-component test build with double-sided tape.  If it truly is, EXACTLY every other board, then it pretty much has to be some kind of software bug.  Do you have any sample programs from the machine's previous owner?  Maybe there's something in your placement file that is triggering this foulup.

My machines will potnetially find a fididual within +/- 10mm or so.   I have it set so it fails, if the fid is not within 1.0mm of where i expect it.  if its 10mm out of whack, something is very wrong.   i would imagine that the fids would always be within .2mm of where i expect them, if not closer.  Some of the variance can be how accurately the boards where routed.. that can be .1 - .2 out.
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2019, 06:42:16 am »
Well, check the field of view of the camera, and the settings for fiducial recognition, to see if there is any possibility of it picking up something else in the camera image and misidentifying the centroid of the fiducial.  Are you absolutely sure it is EXACTLY every other panel?  That's why I suggested a one-component test build with double-sided tape.  If it truly is, EXACTLY every other board, then it pretty much has to be some kind of software bug.  Do you have any sample programs from the machine's previous owner?  Maybe there's something in your placement file that is triggering this foulup.

My machines will potnetially find a fididual within +/- 10mm or so.   I have it set so it fails, if the fid is not within 1.0mm of where i expect it.  if its 10mm out of whack, something is very wrong.   i would imagine that the fids would always be within .2mm of where i expect them, if not closer.  Some of the variance can be how accurately the boards where routed.. that can be .1 - .2 out.

picking up the wrong fids would only be a thing if (a) there was something nearby that was being detected (wrongly) as a fid.  and the board was somehow getting in the wrong place.   I wished i was there, i bet i could diganose this in minutes.    Its so difficult by formum!


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Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2019, 05:14:37 pm »
...

...

OK!

Sorry about the delay, got swamped with design work, but was assembling boards the last couple of days. It looks like you guys were right, it was an issue with the panels getting to the proper location on the conveyor. The "Pre Fix Timer" was set to 0.1 seconds, which was too little time for the board to fully get to the end stop, causing the board to be miss aligned by a few mm. I made the timer 1 second, and ran 60 panels without a single issue! Hooray!!

What I'm still confused about, is even though the board wasn't at the proper end stop location, the camera still found the fids. Shouldn't that have have been able to fix the location issue? I mean, it obviously wasn't, but why not? That's how fiducials help to align the board in general no?

Another question, does anyone have any info/manuals/documents for how to service/maintain/calibrate CL feeders? I don't have any knowledge of how this should be done.

Thanks!
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2019, 08:37:29 pm »
Sorry about the delay, got swamped with design work, but was assembling boards the last couple of days. It looks like you guys were right, it was an issue with the panels getting to the proper location on the conveyor. The "Pre Fix Timer" was set to 0.1 seconds, which was too little time for the board to fully get to the end stop, causing the board to be miss-aligned by a few mm. I made the timer 1 second, and ran 60 panels without a single issue! Hooray!!

Well, glad you've found that issue, but it still sounds like your fids are either not being properly located or ignored.    I'd be guessing that your placement is reliant on the board's actual geometry..   ROuting is not 100% accurate and has some variation so you might get a panel that is not 100% one day, and get a small misplacement.   If you're board doesn't have tiny parts this might not be an issue. It is amazing how 'badly' parts can get placed and still reflow their way into place..  ( not something you should rely on! ). I'm constantly amazed at how what looks like a slightly misaligned part will find its way into place though.

To test if its really looking for fids,   modify your setup so all the parts apart from  1  jellybean part is removed from placement.   Stick a little bit of double sided tape on where they should be placed...    Get a black vivid marker pen and draw completely over the fid's..     THen run it though...

If it is really looking for the fids, it should stop when it cant' locate them.  ( my machine, squeels annoyingly, and the red tower light comes on ).

If it just goes and places the part, then we know we have a config problem.     If  it does fail on the fids, then we have to have a look at something else.
 







If you wanted to send me a vios file, i could have a look at it, and see if i can see an issue with the way you've configured the board set
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Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2019, 08:57:48 pm »
Sorry about the delay, got swamped with design work, but was assembling boards the last couple of days. It looks like you guys were right, it was an issue with the panels getting to the proper location on the conveyor. The "Pre Fix Timer" was set to 0.1 seconds, which was too little time for the board to fully get to the end stop, causing the board to be miss-aligned by a few mm. I made the timer 1 second, and ran 60 panels without a single issue! Hooray!!

Well, glad you've found that issue, but it still sounds like your fids are either not being properly located or ignored.    I'd be guessing that your placement is reliant on the board's actual geometry..   ROuting is not 100% accurate and has some variation so you might get a panel that is not 100% one day, and get a small misplacement.   If you're board doesn't have tiny parts this might not be an issue. It is amazing how 'badly' parts can get placed and still reflow their way into place..  ( not something you should rely on! ). I'm constantly amazed at how what looks like a slightly misaligned part will find its way into place though.

To test if its really looking for fids,   modify your setup so all the parts apart from  1  jellybean part is removed from placement.   Stick a little bit of double sided tape on where they should be placed...    Get a black vivid marker pen and draw completely over the fid's..     THen run it though...

If it is really looking for the fids, it should stop when it cant' locate them.  ( my machine, squeels annoyingly, and the red tower light comes on ).

If it just goes and places the part, then we know we have a config problem.     If  it does fail on the fids, then we have to have a look at something else.
 







If you wanted to send me a vios file, i could have a look at it, and see if i can see an issue with the way you've configured the board set

It definitely looks for them each time before it places the parts. But I'll test covering them tomorrow and see what happens.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2019, 01:19:26 am »
Sorry about the delay, got swamped with design work, but was assembling boards the last couple of days. It looks like you guys were right, it was an issue with the panels getting to the proper location on the conveyor. The "Pre Fix Timer" was set to 0.1 seconds, which was too little time for the board to fully get to the end stop, causing the board to be miss aligned by a few mm. I made the timer 1 second, and ran 60 panels without a single issue! Hooray!!

Whats the input air pressure on your machine and what is the regulator on your machine saying..   Its almost suggesitng that the accuators are not running fast enough.   
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Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2019, 08:38:33 pm »
Sorry about the delay, got swamped with design work, but was assembling boards the last couple of days. It looks like you guys were right, it was an issue with the panels getting to the proper location on the conveyor. The "Pre Fix Timer" was set to 0.1 seconds, which was too little time for the board to fully get to the end stop, causing the board to be miss-aligned by a few mm. I made the timer 1 second, and ran 60 panels without a single issue! Hooray!!

Well, glad you've found that issue, but it still sounds like your fids are either not being properly located or ignored.    I'd be guessing that your placement is reliant on the board's actual geometry..   ROuting is not 100% accurate and has some variation so you might get a panel that is not 100% one day, and get a small misplacement.   If you're board doesn't have tiny parts this might not be an issue. It is amazing how 'badly' parts can get placed and still reflow their way into place..  ( not something you should rely on! ). I'm constantly amazed at how what looks like a slightly misaligned part will find its way into place though.

To test if its really looking for fids,   modify your setup so all the parts apart from  1  jellybean part is removed from placement.   Stick a little bit of double sided tape on where they should be placed...    Get a black vivid marker pen and draw completely over the fid's..     THen run it though...

If it is really looking for the fids, it should stop when it cant' locate them.  ( my machine, squeels annoyingly, and the red tower light comes on ).

If it just goes and places the part, then we know we have a config problem.     If  it does fail on the fids, then we have to have a look at something else.
 







If you wanted to send me a vios file, i could have a look at it, and see if i can see an issue with the way you've configured the board set

Welp, you were right again..

I had the panel fiducials set to block fiducials and not PCB fiducials, and I wasn't using any block offsets. Surprisingly it still looks for the fiducials even though they are set to block, and just won't use them if it can't find them..

So now I'd say mystery is solved. The reason for the delay being required anyway, is that the conveyor speed is set pretty slow, so it needs to wait like an extra 0.2 seconds..

Any thoughts on the feeder maintenance side? I'm getting a bit of a stockpile of feeders that need work.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2019, 09:13:18 pm »
Sorry about the delay, got swamped with design work, but was assembling boards the last couple of days. It looks like you guys were right, it was an issue with the panels getting to the proper location on the conveyor. The "Pre Fix Timer" was set to 0.1 seconds, which was too little time for the board to fully get to the end stop, causing the board to be miss-aligned by a few mm. I made the timer 1 second, and ran 60 panels without a single issue! Hooray!!

Well, glad you've found that issue, but it still sounds like your fids are either not being properly located or ignored.    I'd be guessing that your placement is reliant on the board's actual geometry..   ROuting is not 100% accurate and has some variation so you might get a panel that is not 100% one day, and get a small misplacement.   If you're board doesn't have tiny parts this might not be an issue. It is amazing how 'badly' parts can get placed and still reflow their way into place..  ( not something you should rely on! ). I'm constantly amazed at how what looks like a slightly misaligned part will find its way into place though.

To test if its really looking for fids,   modify your setup so all the parts apart from  1  jellybean part is removed from placement.   Stick a little bit of double sided tape on where they should be placed...    Get a black vivid marker pen and draw completely over the fid's..     THen run it though...

If it is really looking for the fids, it should stop when it cant' locate them.  ( my machine, squeels annoyingly, and the red tower light comes on ).

If it just goes and places the part, then we know we have a config problem.     If  it does fail on the fids, then we have to have a look at something else.
 







If you wanted to send me a vios file, i could have a look at it, and see if i can see an issue with the way you've configured the board set

Welp, you were right again..

I had the panel fiducials set to block fiducials and not PCB fiducials, and I wasn't using any block offsets. Surprisingly it still looks for the fiducials even though they are set to block, and just won't use them if it can't find them..

So now I'd say mystery is solved. The reason for the delay being required anyway, is that the conveyor speed is set pretty slow, so it needs to wait like an extra 0.2 seconds..

Any thoughts on the feeder maintenance side? I'm getting a bit of a stockpile of feeders that need work.

I'm glad that its resolved..   Its amazing how some small gotchas can cause you so much greif.  But once you get past your machines ( if you keep them maintained ) will just keep on keeping on. 

For the low cost 8mm feeders,  if they get seriously out of whack. ( bad accutator ) i just biff them now, a new feeder is US$55, its not worth the time and hassle.         Theres minor adjustments you can make to them.   For more expensive feeders it def is worth repairing them.    Let me see if i can find the book which has the details in it.





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Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2019, 12:28:11 am »
Sorry about the delay, got swamped with design work, but was assembling boards the last couple of days. It looks like you guys were right, it was an issue with the panels getting to the proper location on the conveyor. The "Pre Fix Timer" was set to 0.1 seconds, which was too little time for the board to fully get to the end stop, causing the board to be miss-aligned by a few mm. I made the timer 1 second, and ran 60 panels without a single issue! Hooray!!

Well, glad you've found that issue, but it still sounds like your fids are either not being properly located or ignored.    I'd be guessing that your placement is reliant on the board's actual geometry..   ROuting is not 100% accurate and has some variation so you might get a panel that is not 100% one day, and get a small misplacement.   If you're board doesn't have tiny parts this might not be an issue. It is amazing how 'badly' parts can get placed and still reflow their way into place..  ( not something you should rely on! ). I'm constantly amazed at how what looks like a slightly misaligned part will find its way into place though.

To test if its really looking for fids,   modify your setup so all the parts apart from  1  jellybean part is removed from placement.   Stick a little bit of double sided tape on where they should be placed...    Get a black vivid marker pen and draw completely over the fid's..     THen run it though...

If it is really looking for the fids, it should stop when it cant' locate them.  ( my machine, squeels annoyingly, and the red tower light comes on ).

If it just goes and places the part, then we know we have a config problem.     If  it does fail on the fids, then we have to have a look at something else.
 







If you wanted to send me a vios file, i could have a look at it, and see if i can see an issue with the way you've configured the board set

Welp, you were right again..

I had the panel fiducials set to block fiducials and not PCB fiducials, and I wasn't using any block offsets. Surprisingly it still looks for the fiducials even though they are set to block, and just won't use them if it can't find them..

So now I'd say mystery is solved. The reason for the delay being required anyway, is that the conveyor speed is set pretty slow, so it needs to wait like an extra 0.2 seconds..

Any thoughts on the feeder maintenance side? I'm getting a bit of a stockpile of feeders that need work.

I'm glad that its resolved..   Its amazing how some small gotchas can cause you so much greif.  But once you get past your machines ( if you keep them maintained ) will just keep on keeping on. 

For the low cost 8mm feeders,  if they get seriously out of whack. ( bad accutator ) i just biff them now, a new feeder is US$55, its not worth the time and hassle.         Theres minor adjustments you can make to them.   For more expensive feeders it def is worth repairing them.    Let me see if i can find the book which has the details in it.

Thanks! That makes sense, I was thinking the same. What are your thoughts of used genuine Yamaha vs new China clones? I've heard the China clones have issues with the slider that prevents the parts from jumping out, and we do a lot of LED boards.
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2019, 01:42:25 am »
The "Pre Fix Timer" was set to 0.1 seconds, which was too little time for the board to fully get to the end stop, causing the board to be miss aligned by a few mm. I made the timer 1 second, and ran 60 panels without a single issue! Hooray!!

What I'm still confused about, is even though the board wasn't at the proper end stop location, the camera still found the fids. Shouldn't that have have been able to fix the location issue? I mean, it obviously wasn't, but why not? That's how fiducials help to align the board in general no?
Yes, if the board was just a little out of position while the fiducials are located, and then MOVES when the first part is placed, you will certainly have a bad assembly. 

The setup on my CSM84 has a main stop, and then a push-in plunger presses the board against the main stop.  Then it does a "dance" tapping the push-in plunger and a pair of plungers opposite the fixed rail, it reliably fixtures the board on all 4 sides.
Quote
Another question, does anyone have any info/manuals/documents for how to service/maintain/calibrate CL feeders? I don't have any knowledge of how this should be done.
The guy who had my machine before me made a single holder/base for a feeder.  I added a bridge over the top of this with a hole, and a crosshair over the pick-up location of the feeder.  When I started using 0603 parts, I found a number of feeders were not reliable (0805 were just fine).  After using the bridge and crosshair, I could see the tapes were coming to different positions.  There is an eccentric on the advance pawl that sets the index position of the sprocket, and I adjusted this to get the pockets all to line up under the crosshair.  Then, if the pocket is left or right of the desired position, I check the bottom of the feeder for dings or debris.  After using this, all the feeders soom to work fine on 0603 parts.  The professional alignment fixture has a microscope there, but I found getting a crosshair just above the feeder was good enough.

Jon
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2019, 03:13:27 am »
Thanks! That makes sense, I was thinking the same. What are your thoughts of used genuine Yamaha vs new China clones? I've heard the China clones have issues with the slider that prevents the parts from jumping out, and we do a lot of LED boards.

The feeders i've been buying from Ksun seem to be really reliable, i've had no real issues with them..    I've not keep track of how many cycles they have done, but some of them would be 100's of reels.

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Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2019, 09:24:25 pm »
Another question for my Opal. Is it possible to have one part set to several different feeder locations? Like for the LED board, we're placing like 600 LEDs each panel. If we could have the machine use like 4 feeders for the LEDs and simultaneously pick the parts, I assume that would cut the time down by a lot. Also would make us need to replace parts much less often.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2019, 09:46:40 pm »
Another question for my Opal. Is it possible to have one part set to several different feeder locations? Like for the LED board, we're placing like 600 LEDs each panel. If we could have the machine use like 4 feeders for the LEDs and simultaneously pick the parts, I assume that would cut the time down by a lot. Also would make us need to replace parts much less often.

Yes, you certainly can. I have done this exact job, in the past, and had six 8mm feeders side by side with the same part on it.  It means the machine can pick up six at the same time, and it really does speed things up..  Of course. you end up replacing all six feeders potentially at the same time!
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2019, 12:23:54 am »
Another question for my Opal. Is it possible to have one part set to several different feeder locations? Like for the LED board, we're placing like 600 LEDs each panel. If we could have the machine use like 4 feeders for the LEDs and simultaneously pick the parts, I assume that would cut the time down by a lot. Also would make us need to replace parts much less often.

Yes, you certainly can. I have done this exact job, in the past, and had six 8mm feeders side by side with the same part on it.  It means the machine can pick up six at the same time, and it really does speed things up..  Of course. you end up replacing all six feeders potentially at the same time!

Seriously?! How do you set that up in software?
 

Online Mangozac

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2019, 03:46:57 am »
Hi Kyle,

I find your heat and cooling issues to be quite interesting. Sorry if I missed it but what kind of volume of boards are you doing? If it's not a high volume would you be better off operating the line in a semiautomatic manner, only firing up the oven periodically and put them all through at the same time?

When I visited our CM in Shenzhen they showed me that they only operate the oven once a day - and they were even doing a high volume with a PNP doing 60k CPH. They would stencil and place all of the boards and at the output of the placer they would feed back into magazines. Once they had a sufficient volume ready the conveyor reflow oven would be switched on and everything run through. It saves excess heating of the factory and I suspect uses less power. That said, it may only be a worthwhile saving because of the lower labour cost...
 

Offline kayvee

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2019, 04:33:22 am »
Another question for my Opal. Is it possible to have one part set to several different feeder locations? Like for the LED board, we're placing like 600 LEDs each panel. If we could have the machine use like 4 feeders for the LEDs and simultaneously pick the parts, I assume that would cut the time down by a lot. Also would make us need to replace parts much less often.

Yes, you certainly can. I have done this exact job, in the past, and had six 8mm feeders side by side with the same part on it.  It means the machine can pick up six at the same time, and it really does speed things up..  Of course. you end up replacing all six feeders potentially at the same time!

Seriously?! How do you set that up in software?

Not sure for the Opal but in mine you assign 6 feeder lanes to the same part, before running the optomiser, which then assigns them to the preferred feeder locations.  Load all 6 feeders with that same part, fit the feeders to the optomiser assigned positions, and off you go.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2019, 06:32:20 am »
Another question for my Opal. Is it possible to have one part set to several different feeder locations? Like for the LED board, we're placing like 600 LEDs each panel. If we could have the machine use like 4 feeders for the LEDs and simultaneously pick the parts, I assume that would cut the time down by a lot. Also would make us need to replace parts much less often.

Yes, you certainly can. I have done this exact job, in the past, and had six 8mm feeders side by side with the same part on it.  It means the machine can pick up six at the same time, and it really does speed things up..  Of course. you end up replacing all six feeders potentially at the same time!

Seriously?! How do you set that up in software?

Not sure for the Opal but in mine you assign 6 feeder lanes to the same part, before running the optomiser, which then assigns them to the preferred feeder locations.  Load all 6 feeders with that same part, fit the feeders to the optomiser assigned positions, and off you go.


This, is exactly what you need to do.   Let the machine do the optomization for you.

On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2019, 01:33:24 pm »
Another question for my Opal. Is it possible to have one part set to several different feeder locations? Like for the LED board, we're placing like 600 LEDs each panel. If we could have the machine use like 4 feeders for the LEDs and simultaneously pick the parts, I assume that would cut the time down by a lot. Also would make us need to replace parts much less often.

Yes, you certainly can. I have done this exact job, in the past, and had six 8mm feeders side by side with the same part on it.  It means the machine can pick up six at the same time, and it really does speed things up..  Of course. you end up replacing all six feeders potentially at the same time!

Seriously?! How do you set that up in software?

Not sure for the Opal but in mine you assign 6 feeder lanes to the same part, before running the optomiser, which then assigns them to the preferred feeder locations.  Load all 6 feeders with that same part, fit the feeders to the optomiser assigned positions, and off you go.

Hmm. Just tried it and the optimizer just ignores the additional duplicate parts. Even if I set the duplicate parts to different feeder numbers, it will set different parts to the same feeder location, and just pretend the additional ones don't exist.

Is this because the vios file references the part number (1-xx) rather than part names?
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2019, 06:57:30 pm »
Thanks! That makes sense, I was thinking the same. What are your thoughts of used genuine Yamaha vs new China clones? I've heard the China clones have issues with the slider that prevents the parts from jumping out, and we do a lot of LED boards.
I only have Yamaha/Philips feeders.  When I started with LEDs, I found that my nozzles did not handle domed LEDs well at all.  So, I got flat-top LEDs, and those worked fine.
I can't do 0603 LEDs, as the flat top is just too small, much smaller than the flat top of an 0603 passive component.  But, 0805 LEDs work fine.

Jon
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #49 on: August 28, 2019, 12:09:59 am »
Thanks! That makes sense, I was thinking the same. What are your thoughts of used genuine Yamaha vs new China clones? I've heard the China clones have issues with the slider that prevents the parts from jumping out, and we do a lot of LED boards.
I only have Yamaha/Philips feeders.  When I started with LEDs, I found that my nozzles did not handle domed LEDs well at all.  So, I got flat-top LEDs, and those worked fine.
I can't do 0603 LEDs, as the flat top is just too small, much smaller than the flat top of an 0603 passive component.  But, 0805 LEDs work fine.

Jon

Ahh, yeah. My LEDs are all flat and seem to place fine.

Another option for the multi pick of the LEDs is for me to make the four different parts, name them LED-1, LED-2, etc. Them make 25% of the placed LEDs use the LED-1, 25% use LED-2, etc.

Then let the optimizer happen with those. It'll work, but obviously since I'm choosing which 25% are grouped together, it won't be as fast as if the machine had full flexibility over all LEDs, but I assume it'll still be way faster
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2019, 06:28:46 am »
Thanks! That makes sense, I was thinking the same. What are your thoughts of used genuine Yamaha vs new China clones? I've heard the China clones have issues with the slider that prevents the parts from jumping out, and we do a lot of LED boards.
I only have Yamaha/Philips feeders.  When I started with LEDs, I found that my nozzles did not handle domed LEDs well at all.  So, I got flat-top LEDs, and those worked fine.
I can't do 0603 LEDs, as the flat top is just too small, much smaller than the flat top of an 0603 passive component.  But, 0805 LEDs work fine.

Jon

I'm not in teh factory this week, but i'll go and look and see how I do it.  I normally have 3 reels of 100nF/0603' 25V caps on my machines doing the same exact thing since we seem to use those in wheelborrow loads.    Its was'nt immeidately obvious, but my notes are scribbled in a folder.. ( yes, shoudl be in the wiki i know. )


Ahh, yeah. My LEDs are all flat and seem to place fine.

Another option for the multi pick of the LEDs is for me to make the four different parts, name them LED-1, LED-2, etc. Them make 25% of the placed LEDs use the LED-1, 25% use LED-2, etc.

Then let the optimizer happen with those. It'll work, but obviously since I'm choosing which 25% are grouped together, it won't be as fast as if the machine had full flexibility over all LEDs, but I assume it'll still be way faster
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #51 on: August 28, 2019, 04:28:29 pm »
Thanks! That makes sense, I was thinking the same. What are your thoughts of used genuine Yamaha vs new China clones? I've heard the China clones have issues with the slider that prevents the parts from jumping out, and we do a lot of LED boards.
I only have Yamaha/Philips feeders.  When I started with LEDs, I found that my nozzles did not handle domed LEDs well at all.  So, I got flat-top LEDs, and those worked fine.
I can't do 0603 LEDs, as the flat top is just too small, much smaller than the flat top of an 0603 passive component.  But, 0805 LEDs work fine.

Jon

I'm not in teh factory this week, but i'll go and look and see how I do it.  I normally have 3 reels of 100nF/0603' 25V caps on my machines doing the same exact thing since we seem to use those in wheelborrow loads.    Its was'nt immeidately obvious, but my notes are scribbled in a folder.. ( yes, shoudl be in the wiki i know. )


Ahh, yeah. My LEDs are all flat and seem to place fine.

Another option for the multi pick of the LEDs is for me to make the four different parts, name them LED-1, LED-2, etc. Them make 25% of the placed LEDs use the LED-1, 25% use LED-2, etc.

Then let the optimizer happen with those. It'll work, but obviously since I'm choosing which 25% are grouped together, it won't be as fast as if the machine had full flexibility over all LEDs, but I assume it'll still be way faster

Ah alright, thanks!

Only info I could find in the manual is how to do alternative parts, which only works once the first part runs out.
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2019, 03:33:56 pm »
And the fiducial saga continues!

So, as I stated before, I changed the delay time to allow the board to be ensured that it was against the stopper before starting any placement. I also thought changing the fiducial type from block to PCB made a difference and it showing an error if the fiducial isn't found. I tested the panel with  blue painters tape, and it did error like it should.

However, we ran boards this week, and one panel had all the parts shifted by a couple of mm, like it used to do.. I don't know what  caused the fiducials to not be found, but the bigger issue is once again that the pick and place continued to place parts even after it couldn't find the fiducials. So I tested again with blue painters tape, and low and behold, it will ignore not finding them, and continue to place parts.....

This is such a big issue, because no matter what the reason for it not finding them, it needs to error out when it can't find them.

Here's a video where I show the issue: https://youtu.be/-G8sfD5xlYM

"
The machine will look for panel fiducials, if they are found, it will use them to correct  placement data, and parts will be perfectly placed. If it can't find the fiducials, it will delay over the location of each fiducial for several seconds. It will then still proceed to place the components incorrectly, due to the board not being aligned.
"
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2019, 09:38:36 pm »
but the bigger issue is once again that the pick and place continued to place parts even after it couldn't find the fiducials. So I tested again with blue painters tape, and low and behold, it will ignore not finding them, and continue to place parts.....


The machine will look for panel fiducials, if they are found, it will use them to correct  placement data, and parts will be perfectly placed. If it can't find the fiducials, it will delay over the location of each fiducial for several seconds. It will then still proceed to place the components incorrectly, due to the board not being aligned.
"
Look carefully through the machine setup file for options that disable fiducial errors.  I'll bet that some time in the distant past somebody went in and changed some option for how to handle fiducial location failures.  There's NO WAY that this is how the machine is supposed to operate, but I can easily believe that there is an option to make it work like that.  Do you have the manuals?  Do you have  a parameter by parameter breakdown of the setup file?

And, if you can't find the issue, you might get on smtnet and see if anybody there knows where this setting is.

Jon

Jon
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2019, 01:59:26 am »
but the bigger issue is once again that the pick and place continued to place parts even after it couldn't find the fiducials. So I tested again with blue painters tape, and low and behold, it will ignore not finding them, and continue to place parts.....


The machine will look for panel fiducials, if they are found, it will use them to correct  placement data, and parts will be perfectly placed. If it can't find the fiducials, it will delay over the location of each fiducial for several seconds. It will then still proceed to place the components incorrectly, due to the board not being aligned.
"
Look carefully through the machine setup file for options that disable fiducial errors.  I'll bet that some time in the distant past somebody went in and changed some option for how to handle fiducial location failures.  There's NO WAY that this is how the machine is supposed to operate, but I can easily believe that there is an option to make it work like that.  Do you have the manuals?  Do you have  a parameter by parameter breakdown of the setup file?

And, if you can't find the issue, you might get on smtnet and see if anybody there knows where this setting is.

Jon

Jon

Jon,

Thanks. That is 100% my opinion on what is happening. I have looked through the manual, and the VIOS data manual and can't find anything about it. Also have looked through every setting in the machine with no luck. The guys I got the machine from are thinking of just reinstalling the software, because they have no clue either..
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2019, 06:42:58 pm »
Another question for you guys. I'm experimenting with using the local 4-point fiducials as some of our boards are rather large. They seem to work great, but I have a question with how they actually work mathematically..

First fid handles x/y, second handles rotation, third handles warp. The fourth one would over define the location, so it can't be used. My theory is that the software only ever uses three, but depending on where the part is located wrt the fiducials it decides which 3 it uses.

Am I on the right track here?
 

Offline spongle

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2019, 09:02:19 am »
Another question for you guys. I'm experimenting with using the local 4-point fiducials as some of our boards are rather large. They seem to work great, but I have a question with how they actually work mathematically..

First fid handles x/y, second handles rotation, third handles warp. The fourth one would over define the location, so it can't be used. My theory is that the software only ever uses three, but depending on where the part is located wrt the fiducials it decides which 3 it uses.

Am I on the right track here?

You could be right, but mathematically there's no problem with solving an overdetermined system (in the least squares sense). Given some uncertainty in measurement, every added point should bring you closer to the true solution.
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2019, 11:09:15 am »
Another question for you guys. I'm experimenting with using the local 4-point fiducials as some of our boards are rather large. They seem to work great, but I have a question with how they actually work mathematically..

First fid handles x/y, second handles rotation, third handles warp. The fourth one would over define the location, so it can't be used. My theory is that the software only ever uses three, but depending on where the part is located wrt the fiducials it decides which 3 it uses.

Am I on the right track here?

You could be right, but mathematically there's no problem with solving an overdetermined system (in the least squares sense). Given some uncertainty in measurement, every added point should bring you closer to the true solution.

Yeah, had a bit of a brain goof there lol.. I wasn't thinking fully about the 3d warp or stretch it could have, and least squares.

Thanks!
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2019, 02:23:44 am »
Question for you guys on our DEK 265.

It seems to have an override making the set point of the squeege pressure always be 5kg.

I have it set to 12kg, but on the first print, it errors saying "Actual Pressure: 7.5kg (or something), Set Pressure: 5.0kg"

No matter the pressure we change it to, it says the set pressure is 5.0kg

Could it just always use 5kg as the initial calibration? But if so, then the first print is always at the wrong pressure..
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2019, 12:49:55 am »
Question for you guys on our DEK 265.

It seems to have an override making the set point of the squeege pressure always be 5kg.

I have it set to 12kg, but on the first print, it errors saying "Actual Pressure: 7.5kg (or something), Set Pressure: 5.0kg"

No matter the pressure we change it to, it says the set pressure is 5.0kg

Could it just always use 5kg as the initial calibration? But if so, then the first print is always at the wrong pressure..

Here's an image showing what I mean. In the background you see how my front and rear set pressure is 9kg, but on the initial "calibration" print, the set pressure is 5kg.

Question on the Opal also. Can someone please please please explain in human terms how the vacuum levels work? The explanation and examples in the manual are awful. Saying to break it down into thirds, subtract out the open nozzle, it makes zero sense to me.

Along those lines, is there any way to get more specifics on "pick up errors"? It's painful trying to figure out why it is dumping parts when all it says is that generic error. For example, one issue was the pick height wasn't low enough, so it was struggling to pick them up, but with the generic pick error, it didn't give us any information..

Thanks as always!
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2019, 01:35:14 am »
Alrighty... DEK problem solved - ended up not being a problem at all.

So, what I didn't realize, was that the knead pressure was 5kg, and the first print was always kneaded, so that's why the set pressure showed 5kg. After it was done kneading, the set pressure changed to 12kg like was expected.

Thanks so much for all the help!

Still trying to find some answers on my questions with the Opal!
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2019, 02:42:13 pm »
Along those lines, is there any way to get more specifics on "pick up errors"? It's painful trying to figure out why it is dumping parts when all it says is that generic error. For example, one issue was the pick height wasn't low enough, so it was struggling to pick them up, but with the generic pick error, it didn't give us any information..

I think you overestimate the intelligence of the machine. It goes to the prescribed place and starts sucking. The part doesn't get picked up. How can it possibly know why?
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2019, 02:47:55 pm »
Along those lines, is there any way to get more specifics on "pick up errors"? It's painful trying to figure out why it is dumping parts when all it says is that generic error. For example, one issue was the pick height wasn't low enough, so it was struggling to pick them up, but with the generic pick error, it didn't give us any information..

I think you overestimate the intelligence of the machine. It goes to the prescribed place and starts sucking. The part doesn't get picked up. How can it possibly know why?

That's the thing, it is picking it up - hence why I want a more verbose error..

For this current issue, it is with a large FET, in a D2PAK package. It will pick the part up perfectly, take it to the camera, check it, then it will dump the part saying "pick up error". When it clearly picked up the part, viewed it with the camera, then said pick error. It's happening a ton, like 25% of these FETs are getting dumped.

I assume it is a vacuum issue, but that is another can of worms, understanding what the manual means. Again, if I could view a better log from the machine to where instead of "pick error" it says "vacuum error" or something.
 

Online Styno

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2019, 03:09:35 pm »
Could be vacuum but could be vision as well. Does the machine have a logging option where it shows the expected dimensions (and pins) and the measured values? If it's vacuum, maybe the nozzle is too big and overlaps the package edge thereby sucking false air or the nozzle is damaged and sucking false air. Have you checked?
 

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2019, 04:32:45 pm »
Some D2PAK has a circle marking that is embossed but not at the center of the body, slight off the center. If your D2PAK component has it, maybe the edge of the nozzle tip is exactly around half of this circle marking? Just a thought...
 

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2019, 04:58:33 pm »
Assuming most machines offer adjustments and tolerances on similar parameters, a pick error could indicate that the image the camera has seen suggests the corrections needed to offset/rotation are outside what has been set as acceptable, it could be a vacuum check although I would expect your machine to be able to tell if that is what is was. A DPAK needs to be picked up @ its body center which implies a pick offset from the tape pocket center. Outside that and your nozzle would perhaps be half sucking empty space.

D2 & DPAKs can sometimes be a touch tricky I haven't found a guaranteed one size fits all package definition on our Essemtec as they are slightly different shapes particularly to the camera.
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2019, 11:50:53 pm »
Yeah I honestly don't know. The nozzle certainly isn't overlapping the edge of the part, and seems to be picking it up fine. This is again how it's so frustrating that there's no verbose error. I have checked for any logging, with no luck, but I can try again.
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2019, 05:57:08 pm »
So no real update with the D2PAK issue, haven't run that board again. Did a new design last week with a few packages we haven't done before, and it worked fine. So seems like it is due to that specific part and/or weight of it.

Couple new questions for you. We are going to need to expand to have more lead-free capabilities, and THT support. Most boards we're doing are industrial based, so there's a lot of THT connectors.

1) We're thinking of a Heller 1809, 9 heating zones. 9 zones should handle pretty much all boards with lead free right? I don't want to really ever "outgrow" this one, other than needing a second one for more capacity.

2) When you vent the exhaust straight outside without any filtration, do you need any EPA studies or any regulatory approval? Florida, USA.

3) No issue using the same oven for ROHS and Leaded right? Of course printer squeege, soldering irons, etc are all different. Since no lead comes off the board into the oven, I assume it would be fine.

4) For the THT parts, wave vs selective? We currently don't do double sided. Numbers would maybe be 200-500 boards a month with connectors. The issue is, some boards have 50 pin 0.1" connectors, up to 4 or 5 on each board, so 300+ pins.

I like the wave, since there's no programing, but will use more power. I think we'd go with a small novastar like wave or selective solder either way.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 06:03:45 pm by kylehunter »
 

Offline SMTech

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2019, 11:14:28 pm »
So no real update with the D2PAK issue, haven't run that board again. Did a new design last week with a few packages we haven't done before, and it worked fine. So seems like it is due to that specific part and/or weight of it.

Couple new questions for you. We are going to need to expand to have more lead-free capabilities, and THT support. Most boards we're doing are industrial based, so there's a lot of THT connectors.

1) We're thinking of a Heller 1809, 9 heating zones. 9 zones should handle pretty much all boards with lead free right? I don't want to really ever "outgrow" this one, other than needing a second one for more capacity.
I'm sure an 1809 is fine so probably is a 1707 or indeed for 500PCBs/month a 1505S, are you looking at new or 2nd user? The Heller websites model numbers brochures are not exactly up to date. If new get a few quotes the competition is pretty fierce and you might find some rivals are cheaper for you, BTU is very similar and there are some fairly high spec Chinese ovens out there for a bit less (although in the UK that margin is slim enough a Trump tariff would kill it, probably hurts BTU vs Heller too as Heller has a Korean factory for specialist&USA orders). The bigger ovens biggest advantage is throughput, more zones & more length does also help with minimum TAL but that really depends on how challenging your boards are, lead-free on its own is not a challenge.
Quote

2) When you vent the exhaust straight outside without any filtration, do you need any EPA studies or any regulatory approval? Florida, USA.

Can't speak for Florida but in general I think the exhaust fumes are something you don't want to breathe but not something considered dangerous to vent outside. You can re-circulate indoors using filtration systems from people like BOFA.
Quote

3) No issue using the same oven for ROHS and Leaded right? Of course printer squeege, soldering irons, etc are all different. Since no lead comes off the board into the oven, I assume it would be fine.


It certainly should be, there are probably some customers/applications out there that would insist on a dedicated leaded line but some sectors are just plain fussy.

Quote

4) For the THT parts, wave vs selective? We currently don't do double sided. Numbers would maybe be 200-500 boards a month with connectors. The issue is, some boards have 50 pin 0.1" connectors, up to 4 or 5 on each board, so 300+ pins.

I like the wave, since there's no programing, but will use more power. I think we'd go with a small novastar like wave or selective solder either way.


Its not a section I work in but wave is very useful, as there is some additional setup like peelable soldermask (although your can get the PCB factory to apply that and it goes through reflow just fine) etc as well the board stuffing it saves ~60% time over manual soldering, which might not sound amazing, although it has to be recognised it will successfully solder things easily that are a challenge to a soldering iron. You might need to tweak a few pad-shapes and layouts to get the best results, there are quite a few bits of poor feedback about DDM here and elsewhere in terms of build quality, I would shop around. 2nd user flow wave often comes with a full pot of solder which never hurts. In the UK just about everyone either has or used to have a Blundell CMS400 and there are 2nd user ones everywhere & I would try and find something equally popular over there. I think the killer feature for selective is always when you have double sided mixed technology boards, power is just a bonus. Robots also look interesting for some applications but are definitely something you'd want to get on approval or have extensively demo'd.

 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #69 on: November 24, 2019, 12:44:44 am »
So no real update with the D2PAK issue, haven't run that board again. Did a new design last week with a few packages we haven't done before, and it worked fine. So seems like it is due to that specific part and/or weight of it.

Couple new questions for you. We are going to need to expand to have more lead-free capabilities, and THT support. Most boards we're doing are industrial based, so there's a lot of THT connectors.

1) We're thinking of a Heller 1809, 9 heating zones. 9 zones should handle pretty much all boards with lead free right? I don't want to really ever "outgrow" this one, other than needing a second one for more capacity.
I'm sure an 1809 is fine so probably is a 1707 or indeed for 500PCBs/month a 1505S, are you looking at new or 2nd user? The Heller websites model numbers brochures are not exactly up to date. If new get a few quotes the competition is pretty fierce and you might find some rivals are cheaper for you, BTU is very similar and there are some fairly high spec Chinese ovens out there for a bit less (although in the UK that margin is slim enough a Trump tariff would kill it, probably hurts BTU vs Heller too as Heller has a Korean factory for specialist&USA orders). The bigger ovens biggest advantage is throughput, more zones & more length does also help with minimum TAL but that really depends on how challenging your boards are, lead-free on its own is not a challenge.
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2) When you vent the exhaust straight outside without any filtration, do you need any EPA studies or any regulatory approval? Florida, USA.

Can't speak for Florida but in general I think the exhaust fumes are something you don't want to breathe but not something considered dangerous to vent outside. You can re-circulate indoors using filtration systems from people like BOFA.
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3) No issue using the same oven for ROHS and Leaded right? Of course printer squeege, soldering irons, etc are all different. Since no lead comes off the board into the oven, I assume it would be fine.


It certainly should be, there are probably some customers/applications out there that would insist on a dedicated leaded line but some sectors are just plain fussy.

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4) For the THT parts, wave vs selective? We currently don't do double sided. Numbers would maybe be 200-500 boards a month with connectors. The issue is, some boards have 50 pin 0.1" connectors, up to 4 or 5 on each board, so 300+ pins.

I like the wave, since there's no programing, but will use more power. I think we'd go with a small novastar like wave or selective solder either way.


Its not a section I work in but wave is very useful, as there is some additional setup like peelable soldermask (although your can get the PCB factory to apply that and it goes through reflow just fine) etc as well the board stuffing it saves ~60% time over manual soldering, which might not sound amazing, although it has to be recognised it will successfully solder things easily that are a challenge to a soldering iron. You might need to tweak a few pad-shapes and layouts to get the best results, there are quite a few bits of poor feedback about DDM here and elsewhere in terms of build quality, I would shop around. 2nd user flow wave often comes with a full pot of solder which never hurts. In the UK just about everyone either has or used to have a Blundell CMS400 and there are 2nd user ones everywhere & I would try and find something equally popular over there. I think the killer feature for selective is always when you have double sided mixed technology boards, power is just a bonus. Robots also look interesting for some applications but are definitely something you'd want to get on approval or have extensively demo'd.

Hey! Thanks a lot for all that info. I didn't give enough information, so let me clarify on some of your points.

Everything will be used, buying from the same company that we got all the original equipment from. The 500 pcs a month is my best estimate for just the THT boards for the first while. We are currently doing around 2000 boards a month of SMT only. There's definitely not a throughput issue with our 1500 currently, but I don't want to have to upgrade the oven a third time down the road, hense the 1809.. But open to thoughts on the 1707 being enough, since for used, that'll save around $10k.

Yeah, we currently use a purex filtration unit, which works great, but in this Florida heat, not exhausting that hot air heats up our space pretty badly.. So considering venting outside.

The guys I'm buying from seem to like the novastar waves, and the little reviews I've seen here and Smtnet seem decent, so that's what I'm basing it on.. Definitely open to thoughts and recommendations on them!

Oh and I guess a new question, if we are doing a smt and THT board that doesn't require rohs, any issue of having leaded smt and rohs THT?

Or, once we get a solid rohs oven, is it normal to just do everything rohs, and only leaded for required industries? I'm just trying to avoid needing a separate leaded and rohs wave/selective. It would be nice to just do all rohs, but leaded is so much easier..
 

Offline SMTech

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #70 on: November 24, 2019, 11:11:35 am »
We run ROHS everything, running a true leaded production is pretty hard work as so many components were simply replaced with ROHS variants so the ones for leaded processes simply don't exist any more. Some industries (e.g Aviation) are or were having some of their parts reworked so that tinning etc was put back to a SnPb instead of newer lead-free alternatives but that's a massive ask for anyone without those kinds of budgets.

Do you have genuine and current requirements for lead solder or is it just a simplicity thing? The most challenging bit for us back in the day (2006 here in the EU) was solder wire & irons for manual soldering, wave & SMT was pretty straightforwards, lots of fuss about nothing in the run up to the change.

You can obviously do the maths for the throughput you should get out of any given oven length and only you know how massive some of your boards might get but I can certainly understand the desire for headroom as that's exactly how we choose our stuff too.

 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #71 on: November 24, 2019, 12:24:22 pm »
Do you have genuine and current requirements for lead solder or is it just a simplicity thing? The most challenging bit for us back in the day (2006 here in the EU) was solder wire & irons for manual soldering, wave & SMT was pretty straightforwards, lots of fuss about nothing in the run up to the change.

Nope, exactly what you said. Our main clients don't care either way, we have a Heller 1500, so leaded it is. The main reason for this upgrade as previously stated, is we now have rohs requests, as expected.

With the bad talk about rohs and struggles of lead free, it has just scared me. But the thought of simplifying everything to a single lead free line, does sound appealing!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2019, 04:37:25 pm by kylehunter »
 

Online sokoloff

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #72 on: November 24, 2019, 02:20:51 pm »
Yeah, we currently use a purex filtration unit, which works great, but in this Florida heat, not exhausting that hot air heats up our space pretty badly.. So considering venting outside.
Note that every cubic foot of air you exhaust outside will be matched by a cubic foot of outside air taken in. Depending on the particulars of outside humidity, you might still need additional cooling/dehumidification.
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #73 on: November 24, 2019, 04:17:01 pm »
Yeah, we currently use a purex filtration unit, which works great, but in this Florida heat, not exhausting that hot air heats up our space pretty badly.. So considering venting outside.
Note that every cubic foot of air you exhaust outside will be matched by a cubic foot of outside air taken in. Depending on the particulars of outside humidity, you might still need additional cooling/dehumidification.

Oh trust me, I know that!! Haha, that has been our biggest struggle with the assembly line honestly. Since we have such a small space now (~600 sqft), it's so hard to control parameters. We have almost 4 tons of cooling in the space, but with the purex filter, we can't maintain the temperature when the oven is running. The humidity also drops down into the 30's. So I think by venting outside, we have a better chance of controlling the humidity that comes in vs the heat as it is now.. But definitely open to ideas on the topic.
 

Offline SMTech

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #74 on: November 24, 2019, 08:09:44 pm »
Well I've been to Florida once and I couldn't live there, stepping out of the airport was like walking into a sauna (it was the afternoon right between 2 heavy rainstorms and humid as hell).
In our factory the static female workers have heaters despite a perfectly decent working temp that is in fact too warm if you're on your feet (as I am running the line), I reckon they'd love to work right next to the oven. I don't envy the sound of the space either, I'd consider our factory small and its almost 10 times yours.
 

Offline kylehunter

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #75 on: November 24, 2019, 10:34:12 pm »
Well I've been to Florida once and I couldn't live there, stepping out of the airport was like walking into a sauna (it was the afternoon right between 2 heavy rainstorms and humid as hell).
In our factory the static female workers have heaters despite a perfectly decent working temp that is in fact too warm if you're on your feet (as I am running the line), I reckon they'd love to work right next to the oven. I don't envy the sound of the space either, I'd consider our factory small and its almost 10 times yours.

LOL!

Yeah the heat gets pretty oppressive, hense why the HVAC has become quite an issue. Our next place is going to be around 4000 sqft, so definitely going to be much more spacious.
 

Online Mangozac

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Re: Assembly line update
« Reply #76 on: November 24, 2019, 10:36:06 pm »
One possible solution I've seen is to have the oven in a separate, non climate controlled room, with a little slot in the wall where the conveyor passes through. Obviously such an approach is restricted by the layout of your building though.
 


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