Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine

[EEVblog]

As the title says, I'm trying to select a commercial desktop pick and place machine. Say USD$5k budget.
No, the DIY options are out, I want something more capable.
Used pro machines are rare here in oz.

NeoDen YY1 looked very nice at US$2899, but quite a few people have recommended against a Neoden for issues and support reasons. Existing thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/neoden-yy1-pick-and-place-machine-with-under-$3k-price-for-hobbiestlow-vol-usag/
Uses 3D printed friction feeders that are reportedly trouble with plastic tape.
Single fiducial system.

iTech PPM-A320VB (rebadged ZhengBang ZB3245TSS) looks nice. US$3568 with vibration feeder.
Dual head, 0402 with 320×450mm area, 54 feeders of all widths. Juki nozles.
5500cph (doesn't say with or without vision)
Dual fiducial system. Driven feed system claims to solve the friction problem presumably like on the Neoden YY1.
Claims japanese belts and Taiwan linear rails.
https://www.itechsmt.com/products/ppm-a320vb-pick-and-place-machine?variant=40005233016922
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004254525949.html
Brochure: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0561/1136/6234/files/PPM-A320VB_Brochure.pdf?v=1663915251
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002836131010.html

Charmhigh CHMT36VA US$2750
Dual head,
2800cph with vision
https://www.charmhigh-tech.com/sale-8209415-chmt36va-vibration-feeder-vision-desktop-pick-and-place-machine-0402-5050-sop-qfn.html
Unexpected Maker had support issues with Charmhigh, but not this model?

I'll update this post as I find options.

[48X24X48X]

That iTech PPM-A320VB is actually just a rebadge of ZhengBang ZB3245TSS. There's a series of video of the software by ZhengBang on YT that I need to dig back if you are interested. For me, very intuitive and simple software to use.

[EEVblog]

That iTech PPM-A320VB is actually just a rebadge of ZhengBang ZB3245TSS. There's a series of video of the software by ZhengBang on YT that I need to dig back if you are interested. For me, very intuitive and simple software to use.

Thanks.
Comes with a free virus!
https://hackaday.com/tag/zb3245tss/

[loki42]

Is 5k Inc freight?  Freight is really pricey at the moment.  I recently imported machines from Malaysia and the USA.  You can get used Yamaha / Phillips machines for almost nothing from elsewhere which are very old but out preform any Chinese machine that I've heard of. I looked at emerald and topas Philips.  There's also I guy selling 2 jukis for about $4.5K each in Melbourne that runs well, takes normal feeders etc.  It's pretty small but not table top.  He's got an mpm printer that needs some work he wants to get rid of too.  He's got a good pile of feeders for it. 

What are you doing for stencil printing?  PnP is more trendy but stencil printing is hard.  I've got a spare DEK Horizon 03i in Melbourne.  I could swap it for some circuit design help! 

5k isn't much though... the 88mm feeders for my machine cost 5k...

[lutkeveld]

I have had the CHMT36 (without vision), and it was quite nice for its price.
Without vision I would recommend staying above 0603 and 0.65mm pitch components.
With vision it might a bit more precise, but still....
The dragfeeders worked quite well, the main problem to look out for is the film peelers accidentally catching too much film and yanking the tape forwards every time it peels. So the machine needs some babysitting, but that is probably the case in all sub 10k machines.

As mentioned, stencilling is the most important step to get right! And a decent oven helps too. I would avoid those IR drawer ovens unless you are okay with using leaded solder.

[Jackster]

That iTech PPM-A320VB is actually just a rebadge of ZhengBang ZB3245TSS. There's a series of video of the software by ZhengBang on YT that I need to dig back if you are interested. For me, very intuitive and simple software to use.

Thanks.
Comes with a free virus!
https://hackaday.com/tag/zb3245tss/

Pretty sure most software coming out of China comes with some level of backdoor trojan.
My machine's software had something as well.

When you decompile and recompile the software, it is gone. So it is something tagged onto the exe.

I suspect CPC forces them to run it through an injector so any foreign use of it is monitored and opens a backdoor for the CPC to use.

[DLE]

I've had good success the with CHMT36VA (one with vision) it has its challenges.  Someone coined it a Diva, that's accurate, it needs its green M&Ms and 5C sparkling water, but it works well once you give it those things.  I've run several thousand boards over the years on it.  Sparkfun here in the states put a few things together for it to make it easier to use.  Beware of viruses on the drive that comes from Charmhigh, there is a github repo somewhere (can't remember) that has clean files for it.  If you go that way I can find some links to post.

[EEVblog]

There's also I guy selling 2 jukis for about $4.5K each in Melbourne that runs well, takes normal feeders etc.  It's pretty small but not table top.  He's got an mpm printer that needs some work he wants to get rid of too.  He's got a good pile of feeders for it. 

Link?

[jmelson]

I bought a Quad QSA30A from an auction for the minimum starting bid.  It apparently had been sitting almost unused for 14 years or so.  It fired right up when I got it, but then boards started going bad.  The manuals were quite awful, but with some help from the guy who trained users at the factory, I eventually learned how to use it.  It is quite a well-designed machine, built like a tank, and has flying vision.  This is my second P&P machine, the first one had no vision and just centering chuck arms and was not accurate enough for fine pitch parts.
One huge plus of the Quad machine is that it has extensive self diagnostic features to test the recognition of board fiducials, waffle tray pickup positions, array step-over and part measurement.
So, I went through a lot of issues with this machine, but in the end it has worked out quite well. 
With my older machine, I was making boards within a week of arrival.  Of course, part of that was that it had been in production 2 weeks before it was shipped to me.  So, I highly recommend looking at older, high-end production machines if you have the space.  Just make sure they have not been sitting for too long.
Jon

[nctnico]

Aliexpress looks to be riddled with various P&P machines. There could be some interesting feedback amongst the machines that got sold. One of the things I'd look for is that a P&P machine has a closed loop servo position system instead of freerunning (open loop) steppers. Using open loop steppers is asking for trouble.

[EEVblog]

So, I highly recommend looking at older, high-end production machines if you have the space.  Just make sure they have not been sitting for too long.

They are just so rare here. And such a huge machine won't get through the door of my dungeon. My bunker has double doors but does not have ventiltation like my dungeon, and it's not conveniently downstairs.
I just missed out on a machine with 40 Yamaha feeders, I put a big on it but the guy decided to keep it..

[loki42]

EBay auction has ended but last I heard he still had them https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/265914573734?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=7l-qpOOVQyW&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY i can give him a yell if you're keen.

[Mangozac]

Hi Dave, I'm in the process of upgrading from my Kayo 1706 to a pair of Yamaha machines, so the 1706 will be available in January. http://en.kayosmt.com/index.php/Show/index/cid/342/id/291.html

The 1706 has been a great, cost effective machine for us to dip our toes into SMT but now that we've reached a point of critical mass we need more speed and advanced features, hence the upgrade. I'll be looking to sell it within your budget including a bunch of feeders. I'd budget approx $1500 to get it moved from SE QLD to Sydney.

[EEVblog]

EBay auction has ended but last I heard he still had them https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/265914573734?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=7l-qpOOVQyW&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY i can give him a yell if you're keen.

They are enourmous. I doubt I'd even get that into the bunker. If I had a big warehouse, sure.

[EEVblog]

Hi Dave, I'm in the process of upgrading from my Kayo 1706 to a pair of Yamaha machines, so the 1706 will be available in January. http://en.kayosmt.com/index.php/Show/index/cid/342/id/291.html

The 1706 has been a great, cost effective machine for us to dip our toes into SMT but now that we've reached a point of critical mass we need more speed and advanced features, hence the upgrade. I'll be looking to sell it within your budget including a bunch of feeders. I'd budget approx $1500 to get it moved from SE QLD to Sydney.

Thanks, please keep me in the loop on this.
Main problem is this has to go into the bunker, and I've not kinda got my eye on the dungeon dowstairs as it's got ventilation and, well, it's just downstairs instead a walk across the business park.
Would have the check if it's physically possible of getting in the bunker though.

[loki42]

The jukis are pretty tiny,  there's 2 of them in the first pic but maybe my standards are different... my Universal Genesis machines are at least 4 times size and weight. 

[coppice]

Main problem is this has to go into the bunker, and I've not kinda got my eye on the dungeon dowstairs as it's got ventilation and, well, it's just downstairs instead a walk across the business park.
Would have the check if it's physically possible of getting in the bunker though.

Watch out for your floor type. Some of these machines can really shake the floor up, and annoy the neighbours, if not on a really solid concrete floor.

[Mangozac]

The jukis are pretty tiny,  there's 2 of them in the first pic but maybe my standards are different... my Universal Genesis machines are at least 4 times size and weight.

Plus they're a couple of generations old, with camera on a separate display and DOS OS, so not the most user friendly. IMO not the best option for starting out.

[EEVblog]

FYI, this is the one I missed, a TVM920 with over 40 Yamaha feeders.
Ideally this is what I'm after used. A unit small enough to get through a single door and sit on a desktop, but uses decent cartridge feeders for better reliability.

[Mangozac]

Thanks, please keep me in the loop on this.
Main problem is this has to go into the bunker, and I've not kinda got my eye on the dungeon dowstairs as it's got ventilation and, well, it's just downstairs instead a walk across the business park.
Would have the check if it's physically possible of getting in the bunker though.

No problem, let me know if you need any specific measurements for checking 

[EEVblog]

The jukis are pretty tiny,  there's 2 of them in the first pic but maybe my standards are different... my Universal Genesis machines are at least 4 times size and weight.

Plus they're a couple of generations old, with camera on a separate display and DOS OS, so not the most user friendly. IMO not the best option for starting out.

If I had the room and they were super cheap then still an option.
But yeah, something smaller and more modern is a better option I think.

[EEVblog]

Main problem is this has to go into the bunker, and I've not kinda got my eye on the dungeon dowstairs as it's got ventilation and, well, it's just downstairs instead a walk across the business park.
Would have the check if it's physically possible of getting in the bunker though.

Watch out for your floor type. Some of these machines can really shake the floor up, and annoy the neighbours, if not on a really solid concrete floor.

Both my storage units are underground basement carpark concrete floor.
Getting ethernet installed in my dungeon tomorrow!

[Mangozac]

FYI, this is the one I missed, a TVM920 with over 40 Yamaha feeders.
Ideally this is what I'm after used. A unit small enough to get through a single door and sit on a desktop, but uses decent cartridge feeders for better reliability.

Yamaha/clone CL feeders are definitely the way to go. Sure, they have their limitations but if you're not going below 0603 size then nothing beats them for price and availability.

[jmelson]

They are enourmous. I doubt I'd even get that into the bunker. If I had a big warehouse, sure.

Well, I have a Quad QSA30A in my home basement.  See:  http://pico-systems.com/QSA30.html

I already had double doors installed for my previous machine.
Jon

[nctnico]

FYI, this is the one I missed, a TVM920 with over 40 Yamaha feeders.
Ideally this is what I'm after used. A unit small enough to get through a single door and sit on a desktop, but uses decent cartridge feeders for better reliability.

Yamaha/clone CL feeders are definitely the way to go. Sure, they have their limitations but if you're not going below 0603 size then nothing beats them for price and availability.

And how about 0402? For a lot of designs you can't avoid using 0402 in order to get the decoupling close enough to chips.