Desktop Pick-and-place: overview

[Kjelt]

So a complete machine with feeders incl shipping , duties and taxes will set you back at least 10k€.

[harry4516]

which is way too much.
For $10k we can get a TVM920 fully equipped with 56 yamaha feeders.

[sparkswillfly]

I came across another new machine on Taobao.

I believe this is aka SMT330.

There is also a new version chmt48vb that I am considering.

Want to buy a machine this year , nothing ticking all the boxes yet.

[48X24X48X]

which is way too much.
For $10k we can get a TVM920 fully equipped with 56 yamaha feeders.

But, TVM920 is a belt machine at CNY39800.00 without feeder too.
The other is a spindle machine with linear guide but only 30 feeders which I think is the only drawback compared to the TVM920.
Furthermore, it also has vibration module for only CNY650.

The strange thing is when you look at Taobao, this is the only machine that sells in numbers even though it is new compare to the rest.
They are also a manufacturer of multi-zone reflow oven.

[harry4516]

ok, spindle and linear guide is an advantage of this machine.

The only machine with linear guides and spindle and >50 feeders could be the smallsmt VP-2500 oder VP-2800.
They advertise a maximum of 68x 8mm-feeders plus 6x12mm , 5x16mm and 2x24mm, thats a lot.

Unfortunately the smallsmt has some homebrew special feeders, and I know from the TVM802 that this type of feeders is horrible for setup of a new board.
I don't think I would buy a machine without standard feeders again.

I would buy a VP2800HP with Yamaha feeders immediately.

[sparkswillfly]

Tvm920 is a belt drive machine, but has closed loop encoders, right?  So how much of an issue is that?

[mrpackethead]

Once robert got past his intial problems with the machine.. ( bit of buggy code ) hes finding that it runs just fine.

[harry4516]

Once robert got past his intial problems with the machine.. ( bit of buggy code ) hes finding that it runs just fine.

do you know if the TVM920 has space for custom trays ? There are so little pictures in the internet. Some close views would be great.

[thommo]

G'day Harry,

Yes - in its current release there is provision for up to 10 different Tray profiles/components.

We're actually in discussion with the QiHe engineering guys at present with a view to increasing this qty [substantially], and they seem really open and co-operative - which is a great and positive sign!

The only other limit is the area remaining, after the bare PCB space is subtracted. So, pretty much the entire machine platform [inside the transport system constraints].

Hope this info assists and is helpful. We'll will report the outcome of these discussions once confirmed.

Peter

BTW - I have placed a copy of this response into:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/pick-place-machinetvm920/
as it seems more appropriate to me.

This is also where I will post the update following the discussion [see above]

Once robert got past his intial problems with the machine.. ( bit of buggy code ) hes finding that it runs just fine.

do you know if the TVM920 has space for custom trays ? There are so little pictures in the internet. Some close views would be great.

[TJ232]

I am also looking for a small P&P for the lab, not so interested in speed but in precision as will be used for proto/small pre-production/testing&validation batches. If it can be also not to noisy will be even better.

Has anybody reliably placed IC's in QFN or similar size packages? These days such a size/type has become almost a must...

What are the best options for now for a low cost P&P machine that can do it: TVM802? SmallSMT? Neoden? TVM920? Other?

SmallSMT/Michael are saying that their new machine will have release date in January 2017.

Any new interesting P&P machines around?

[harry4516]

---
Has anybody reliably placed IC's in QFN or similar size packages? These days such a size/type has become almost a must...
---

I use the TVM802B and I have QFNs on most of my boards, see the picture.

You see that the TVM802 can place QFNs accurately, but In difference to expensive professional machines this needs regularly adjustments.
Before placing a batch of boards I place the QFN on a sample board with doublesided adhesive tape. After placing I check it under the microskope
and adjust the settings ( in steps of 1/10mm) until it fits perfectly.Then I start placing the other boards.
Sometimes it is required to correct a few parts manually before soldering, so its not a perfect machine but it really saves a lot of time.

[TJ232]

Thank you Harry,

Looks more than decent. Depends of the level of constant adjustment you need to play with to not end with a fancy 4k USD (or more) twizzer (in terms of average speed per board, ofcourse ).

[technotronix]

Is there any new update came in pic and place machine?

[l0wside]

As the thread starter, I might have overlooked some (new) machine. If anyone want to have another machine included, send me a PM or add a comment to the Google Doc.

Max

[mikeselectricstuff]

Just noticed this one. 4 heads, but does not use the Neoden4 trick of imaging all 4 in one go, so slower.
Uses Yamaha CL feeders and Juki nozzles - this seems to be becoming quite common.
Claims to be able to do 1200mm PCBs but looks like it may be manual rather than auto conveyor.


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Technology-Pick-and-Place-Machine-SMT330-PCB-Pick-Place-Machine-0402-0603-0805-1206-SMT/32702619188.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.350.ClyrT0&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3_10056_10065_10068_10055_10054_10069_10059_10073_10017_10071_10070_10060_10061_10052_10062_10053_10050_10051,searchweb201603_1&btsid=85ac63d3-f2e1-4dce-8adf-38676f024471

[l0wside]

Thanks, sheet is updated.
A number of questions remains unresolved. I have no idea who the actual manufacturer is (Wenzhou Yingxing Technology seems to be a dealer only). Regarding feeders, they have little to no data. I was no overly eager to watch the YT videos to find out more. Also, they do not specifiy a minimum pitch, only a placement precision of 25µm, which seems overly optimistic to me.

[Prohiottoka]

We just bought a CHMT 530p machine with 4 heads. Does anyone interested in our initial experiences? Hopefully we will use it in production in a few days.
We are replacing a heavily modified Madell machine which we used for 4 years. I hope it will work better than the madell, which I had to rebuild in order to be able to use it.

[mikeselectricstuff]

We just bought a CHMT 530p machine with 4 heads. Does anyone interested in our initial experiences?

Yes please!

[TJ232]

Yes, it will be great some real feedback also for the CHMT 530p model. Was also keeping an eye on it but so far no real usage feedback about .

[Prohiottoka]

We received the machine today, first run will be tomorrow. After that I'll write more.
Right now it seems OK for the price.
The build quality is OK, nothing special. It was cheap and it has some cheap build choices.
For example there is no oil lubrication in the compressed air line. But it seems to me that it is necessary for the feeders, so I'll have to add one later.
They gave a jar of grease for the machine... I did not found yet the greasing points, it seems odd.
The timing belt (or I don't know which is the exact word in english) also seams cheap. We received spare parts, so I'll check it later.

Otherwise the machine works out of the box. The manual is OK except it seems impossible to start the first run based only on that
But the support is really good, we received several youtube links. And they are available a lot on skype also.

The display is way too small for my taste, but it has no effect on the usability of the machine.
It is hard to use the touch display for fine movements, but in the regular use there is no need of that, so I can live with it.

If everything goes well, it will use it in production next week, so I'll have actual info of the speed of the machine.

[Prohiottoka]

Our machine us up and running.
Here is a video of the first board: click. I reduced the speed of the machine to 70%, so it can work faster.

Now I think the software of the machine is the biggest issue. But we need more time to test the reliability of the mechanics.

Just an example: there are toggle buttons where the title of the buttons means the current setting, and other toggle buttons where the title means what will be the new setting if you push the button.
It's quite confusing that the same bright red X icon means no vision in one button, and allowing the placement of the part in an other button.

But they did not lie about the speed, so it's a pleasant surprise. 4000 parts/hour can be achieved with the cameras.
The software is capable of optimizing the pick up order, but of course you have to decide the order and place of the feeders and the nozzles.

In 2 or 3 months we will need another machine, probably we will buy another one. This price is a bargain.

[Prohiottoka]

about my last post:
I jumped to a quick, and wrong conclusion
There is nothing wrong with the logic of the software... it is just bad translation After checking all the videos and the manuals...  it is clearly just mistranslated texts.

[Gary.M]

The pricing on their website looks good. Does the price include any feeders? What extra did you have to buy?

[JuKu]

An update: LitePlacer now has automatic nozzle changer, costs 1699€ and the software is open source.

[Prohiottoka]

The pricing on their website looks good. Does the price include any feeders? What extra did you have to buy?

We bought extra nozzles, and feeders. There is no feeder included in the price.
The machine contains the vacuum pump.