I have made regular use of the gang design technique of putting a number of PCB's into a single design for both economy and ease of assembly. In my case, the designs are all related but electrically disconnected in the PCB. They are all interconnected with various connectors in the final assembly allowing me to place them for external features of the end product - buttons, switches, display, connectors, etc.
I have been using a company called Rush PCB to fab these for the last few runs of 50pcs (low volume) and they were $15.40/ea - not a problem. Today I submitted a trivially updated version with the same outline, hole count, all specs the same. This time, however, someone noticed that it was 5 designs on one board and the price goes up to $26/ea. The same size and spec with a few pads moved around increases the cost from $15.40 to $26.00?
While I don't think that is enough to sink the project - it feels so wrong. Like I am being cheated. Should I just make some 'dummy traces' to connect the PCB's? Why would a fab house care - other that trying to extort money for work they would not be doing. The way it is quoted, it appears that the NRE is repeated 5 times even though there is only a single setup. They have made good quality PCB's for me and always ahead of schedule, so that is a good thing.
Maybe time to look around for an alternate? These are not exotic PCB at all. 8/8 ENIG 4 layer .062" FR-4 Green with white silk. Anyone could do these - but finding a new fab house always makes me nervous and I don't have much margin in the schedule. Is this still a normal practice in today's super competitive PCB fab market?
It's not an uncommon practice, but it annoys and bewilders everyone who runs into it. I run the price comparison site
PCBShopper.com and I got enough complaints from my users about surcharges on multiple designs that I added it as a parameter in my price calculator.
So if you go to PCBShopper, enter your board's specs and look for the field labeled "Number of designs". The help text says "Number of independent designs on the board separated by a silkscreened line or by nothing at all." In your case, you'd enter 5. PCBShopper will show you prices from as many as 27 different manufacturers, and will take into account their policies regarding multiple designs.
Rush PCB is not listed in PCBShopper's price comparison, but similar American companies are (as well as Asian and European companies).
- Bob
Thanks for the note Bob - nice tool you have created. Well done.
I am going to look around and see who operates this way. It feels so shady to operate that way.
I am going to look around and see who operates this way. It feels so shady to operate that way.
Did you ask Rush PCB why they do that? What did they say?
I am going to look around and see who operates this way. It feels so shady to operate that way.
Did you ask Rush PCB why they do that? What did they say?
Yes, I did. The reply is hilarious.
ME:
Curious why the cost changes if the boards are laid out this way. It is the same effort and material as if the pcb's are connected, right?
RUSHPCB:
Thanks for your feedback. The price at $15.40ea was a special offer.
Ok, they ran the previous revisions on three different orders at the same price over a 6 month period. The reality is they just now figured out that the layout is 5 designs and now want to charge more for the same work. The $15.40 price they have been charging is very similar to what I just saw on PCB shopper and what Sunstone quoted directly so I don't think it is special. A 68% increase is kinda crazy to me.
You haven't mentioned whether you're using Rush PCB's "Protos Special" price, but at
http://rushpcb.com/offers/SpecialProtos.aspx the fine print says the pricing applies to "Individual board with Single circuit design and No Multiple images of boards". So at least they're upfront about it.
How does their price for 5 designs on one board compare to having one design on the board, with the board area being 1/5th the size, and then ordering 5 times as many boards?
- Bob
Run your single board with 5 designs past them with a single 0.1mm "ground" track between each design, and then one with the isolated designs but with a few hundred totally useless drill holes and v grooves of various lengths and diameter between each design - sticking to their rules of course. Ask them what they really want or can they just be sensible because you are an existing customer, and as any business knows keeping existing customers is far more profitable than finding new ones..
How does their price for 5 designs on one board compare to having one design on the board, with the board area being 1/5th the size, and then ordering 5 times as many boards?
- Bob
I am not sure - so far all the boards I have done with them have been quoted over email. I don't know what service level they assigned the projects to. They did these same boards previously for the same $15.40/ea on three different orders. I would be fine with an incremental increase since the price is 9mos old now. Even if they noticed the layout is 5 PCB's after 3 orders, how do they expect me to react to a 68% increase in cost?
Run your single board with 5 designs past them with a single 0.1mm "ground" track between each design, and then one with the isolated designs but with a few hundred totally useless drill holes and v grooves of various lengths and diameter between each design - sticking to their rules of course. Ask them what they really want or can they just be sensible because you are an existing customer, and as any business knows keeping existing customers is far more profitable than finding new ones..
Honestly, there are too many options to mess around with this kind of thing. You are right, it is cheaper to keep the existing (and happy until now) customers. The total order average is about $3k every couple of months. Not a giant customer by any stretch, but it seems like enough to not run me out the door, right? I don't have any designs that push the boundaries of the process - traces are all wider than the minimum, holes are bigger than minimum, minimum possible hole sizes, standard colors, standard finishes. Curious what they may do. I have been very serious about sourcing everything possible here in the USA, but I am struggling to be competitive. The majority of my competition is manufacturing as much as possible in China which is getting easier by the minute. The same boards can be done in China from a known a reputable list for 1/3 the cost including the shipping. This is even true with small quantity.
Big dilemma - stay local or go for the lowest cost? May not have a choice in the long run. My customers may make that choice for me.
Just tell them Thanks but no thanks. Give them the China quote and tell them now they have given you (previously happy customer) the incentive to find someone else, can they now beat the Chinese price? Or at least lower their OLD price a bit as you have found this new market that you never would have considered previously?
They are not a charity! Its only $24,000 a year in sales they will lose.
Now this is just being nice and letting them know how they are failing. You could of course just never call them back and go and get them made in China like your competitors.
I don't know much about the PCB business, but at least in my world I don't have many BIG customers. My business is supported by many small volume customers. Each one of them talks to other potential customers so it is critical to me that everyone is as happy as possible all the time.
It's doubtful that losing my business would shake them up very much, but if 10, 20, 30 customers did the same thing they may re-consider how they operate.
I would not even consider higher prices if it does not compensate that with quality and service.
So take your business elsewhere.
You don't run a business to support other businesses. It is a competitive world out there so be competitive.
If you can save 2/3 of your cost that is more net profit right in your pocket.
If you want to support local business, use that 2/3 and buy something nice for the wife.
American businesses should not be afraid of Chinese competition.
Just offer a reasonable price and to distinguish have high quality, good customers service in English, and speedy manufacturing and shipping.
As a capitalist country this should come natural.
The quote system from PCBWay below seems to take the "number of different designs" into account even if you created your own panel too. Haven't tried to run quotes for different setups to see if the prices would actually be different though.
But IMO my understanding would be that manufacturers would rather like to stop that trend of people grouping things (that previously made sense due to the way billing worked), because the reason they can get prices that low is by optimizing/grouping multiple customers' designs on even larger panels, and they realised they could do it more efficiently themselves (i.e. instead of having all your PCBs grouped the way you grouped them then those of othe customers next to them etc it might be better to have one of your small independent PCBs filling a space in the middle of other designs on the other end of the board).
Just my 2 cents worth, I use Beta Layout in Ireland, and they just put four separate PCBs onto a 100mm by 100mm panel and I end up with 2 off each PCB at no extra charge.
Just my 2 cents worth, I use Beta Layout in Ireland, and they just put four separate PCBs onto a 100mm by 100mm panel and I end up with 2 off each PCB at no extra charge.
Beta Layout is also known as PCB-POOL, and that's how it's listed on PCBShopper.
- Bob
RUSHPCB:
Thanks for your feedback. The price at $15.40ea was a special offer.
RE: thanks for your reply however "special offer" does not spell in my dictionary. i'll get back to you when i cant find another source that can offer cheaper than your "not special offer" price. sincerely...
I used a local company, BEC for over 20 years. They let me fill ANY size panel with however many designs I wanted, with NO extra charges.
The ONLY extras was #holes, which was fair, and really bugger all extra. A few other local manufacturers relented and used to charge ~$15 for each extra
design per panel, and I was fine with that too. BUT, most locals have gone now (and not just because of that).
In my case, I had many tiny pcbs / fillers / adapters that would incur $200+ setup cost for EACH one ! Absolutely not worth it !
They told me that, they made very good money charging each person a setup cost, then cramming as many "prototypes" as possible on a panel.
They made more this way than a production run, for far less cost and effort. I still haven't found a "reasonable" supplier, I don't care if they limit it
to 3-5 designs max for a small increase. It's a PITA
Edit: ~30 yrs ago, when a panel here cost anywhere from $1,000-$2,000, making a "single" PCB with GND and VCC tracks linking them was a common trick.
The bastids would still cut them up and charge extras ! There'd often be arguments as to whether it was a single PCB or not. I'd often have to supply a circuit
diagram et :-) but I'd get crafty with that too !!
But IMO my understanding would be that manufacturers would rather like to stop that trend of people grouping things (that previously made sense due to the way billing worked), because the reason they can get prices that low is by optimizing/grouping multiple customers' designs on even larger panels, and they realised they could do it more efficiently themselves (i.e. instead of having all your PCBs grouped the way you grouped them then those of othe customers next to them etc it might be better to have one of your small independent PCBs filling a space in the middle of other designs on the other end of the board).
Never thought of it. But, yeah, that makes sense. I also thought it had to do with the amount of routing. I suppose that takes more time, more wear on the tooling, more cleaning/emptying of the vacuum equipment. Tab routing doesn't cut itself.
I've used
http://dirtypcbs.com/ and panelized 5x5 CM into four equal parts come out to $0.35 a board, Pic attached
Mr. J , N1IR
I've done this several times with elecrow and they've never complained. I think their additional charges apply if you want the sub-boards cut out (completely) or v-grooving - tabs are fine
It is certainly true, that the PCB manufacturers try to discourage their customers from grouping designs. I cannot see any technical reason for that, the economic reason (as seen from the manufacturer) however is obvious. Most prototype calculators follow a rather simple pattern: A base fee "for entering the shop" plus a cost proportional to the board surface you buy, plus surcharges for extras like ENIG, thicker copper, 2nd silk screen etc. So, if you order 5 different boards, you pay the base fee 5 times, if you group, only once. They hate that, and invented the "multiple design fee" to recover at least part of the loss.
There are exceptions. I bought several times from Aetzwerk in Germany (
www.aetzwerk.de). They are not the cheapest, but accept multi design panels without surcharge, also ENIG without solder mask (lots of gold...).
The only thing we can do is stick with these suppliers, and let them know why we do so.
I have used Sunstone a lot in the past for prototypes and they are totally fine with multiple designs - they keep it a simple square dimension price. In general, they are too expensive for production but so not so bad on protos.
I am looking at Chinese options for production now. Been avoiding that for so long, but USA manufacturing will kill my products and my business will fail.
I have used Sunstone a lot in the past for prototypes and they are totally fine with multiple designs - they keep it a simple square dimension price. In general, they are too expensive for production but so not so bad on protos.
I am looking at Chinese options for production now. Been avoiding that for so long, but USA manufacturing will kill my products and my business will fail.
There's also Taiwan. In a past life I dealt with a sizable amount of East Asian procurement. I can say that dealing with Taiwan was always, always, always less trouble than dealing with China (at least, when I wasn't actually
in China at the moment). One fab house you could look at is Speedy Circuits (of Taiwan; it's a popular name!). I have no relation to them, but the last turnkey assembly job we contracted out to a local company got their boards back from those guys. I wasn't particularly happy to see that -- the previous turnkey jobs we sent to this assembler sourced all their boards from a local US fab, and I was expecting that again given the ridiculous pricing -- but the boards were good quality and I assume the assembler pocketed the difference nicely. The silkscreen was a little blurry but I am admittedly a picky bastard about silkscreen; in any case it was far better than the typical Chinese crap you see all too often (coughelecrowcough).
I think there are some exceptional features of multiple design for PCB which makes the pricing jump.
i.e. PCB has no complex wiring attached all over the board, minimal chance of short circuits and wrong wiring, No need for further inspection, It makes mass production cheaper, printed circuit boards are ideal for reproduction of multiple boards and many more advantages.
Jeez, for that price difference it would be almost cheaper to do the panel drilling by a 3rd party, ridiculous.
I would just go for some dummy traces, or even real connected traces.
Like said before, there is absolutely no technical reason why a PCB manufacturer would have additional work/costs to the process.
It's just so screw people over to make two different projects = more money in the pocket.
Like said before, there is absolutely no technical reason why a PCB manufacturer would have additional work/costs to the process.
It's probably to encourage people not to panelise themselves. Pool services will puzzle together dozens of designs on a single panel. There will be less space wasted with 5 small designs compared to 1 large of the same surface...