Neoden 4 pick and place

[rwb]

Here is a new Neoden 4 video of it placing LED's on a 1.2m panel.

The machine is shaking like crazy  I wonder if its on the Neoden 4 Stand they sell?

https://youtu.be/vwKmE7UrbKY

[Ichan]

Out of curiosity, the board came in from the left and then got spat out to the left when it was finished. Is this a configuration thing.. I woudl have thought for most applicaitons that having it feed out to the right, would be good..  ( i'd park my oven next to it on the right ) and have my stenciling on the left, in some kind of line..   

There is an option to eject the board to the front (left) or back (right).

...
The placement accuracy seems pretty good overall but the parts tend to move when actually placed by the Z axis depending on amount of compression on the nozzle etc.

My experience with the older machine to prevent parts moved away when placed is not to let the nozzle compressed at all by setting the "placement height" carefully, parts should fixed to the pcb only by the solder paste surface tension.

If the N4 had more feeders i'd be in like flin.  having less than 80 feeders is just problematic for me.

Two N4 in series will fulfill your requirement , other option with 80+ feeders won't be below $100K i think.


Will try panelized board today and add the two fine pitch ic, after that will start loading the machine with all the components for production - hope can start a full run tomorrow.

-ichan

[thommo]

Mr Packethead,

Our situation and requirement is sounding remarkably similar to yours - shame we're not both in the same city.

Our typical build has something in the range of 60-90 component types, and although we aren't constantly creating new designs, our project is suited to JIT build and delivery.

I was holding out for something 'better' from NeoDen, but I think any hope of that is further into the future than I can afford to wait. Our solution will therefore be to buy 1 machine now, and satisfy ourselves of it's capabilities, then add another joined by conveyor. This will allow us to keep the machine loaded with sufficient components [when you include an array of IC Trays [customised for each board] constantly loaded in the machine/s.

I assume you were intending running your machine in NZ, not Melb?

BTW - there is an early video on YouTube of a small fab using 2 N4s interfaced by a conveyor.

[mrpackethead]

Our typical build has something in the range of 60-90 component types, and although we aren't constantly creating new designs, our project is suited to JIT build and delivery.

Our parts between boards are ofte[qun the same with only a few differences.  When I looked at things, I may well be able to keep 50+ reels of parts on a machine and very rarely need to change them.
 

I was holding out for something 'better' from NeoDen, but I think any hope of that is further into the future than I can afford to wait. Our solution will therefore be to buy 1 machine now, and satisfy ourselves of it's capabilities, then add another joined by conveyor. This will allow us to keep the machine loaded with sufficient components [when you include an array of IC Trays [customised for each board] constantly loaded in the machine/s.

For a similar amount of cash,  and speed, the SmallSMT machines ( the servo motor version ) with 90 feeders does look good. What concerns me with SmallSMT is that its a one man operation out of Germany, with Chinese machines.. I Saw there software and it looks better than the Neoden. Oh what to do.

I assume you were intending running your machine in NZ, not Melb?

id move to Melbourne, the wife is not so keen.

[wraper]

Here is a new Neoden 4 video of it placing LED's on a 1.2m panel.

The machine is shaking like crazy  I wonder if its on the Neoden 4 Stand they sell?

They have a crappy laminate floor, no stand will save the day, unless it's a 150kg piece of concrete.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I wonder how easy it would be to modify the N4 so it has an easily exchangeable feeder bank, to allow for a bigger range of parts in one design.

[thommo]

Definitely possible I believe.

I suggested this to them a couple of months ago.
While we're at it we may as well place the tape feeder and tape cover puller on a single sheet of s/steel.

Would love to be able to retro fit a cheap Main Stream feeder to this.

[Ichan]

Unsatisfactory result today, the placement shifted to the left (Y- direction on the machine), and the bad board detection feature seems not working.



On the video below, i meant the tray to be started at row 4 (the tray is too near to the front) but the machine looking at row 3. I cut the rest of the video as it is a boring repeated attemps of rearranging the chip on the tray.



Will try again tomorrow, will add a dummy part as "first chip" for a more accurate reference and will do calibrating the nozzles first.

-ichan

[elmood]

Ichan: Check your mark point settings very carefully... I spent a long time trying to figure out why parts were placing slightly off and it all had to do with this. Try the Vision Align feature in the placement screen to see where the parts will go. Use Step to get the board loaded and the mark points detected and then turn on Vision Align and you can move back and forth in the chiplist and see where the machine THINKS it will put the part. This is the best way to check the alignment before actually wasting parts.

[Ichan]

Thanks Elmood, i will try it tomorrow.

How to set the mark points in import file mode? The align function is disabled, i fill the coordinates from the CAD manually on it.

-ichan

[mikeselectricstuff]

Here is a new Neoden 4 video of it placing LED's on a 1.2m panel.

With really poor choice of feeder position!

[thommo]

Icahn,
I really think that 'any' attempt to get a production quality result without fiducial markings, will always deliver a hit and miss outcome. They are designed specifically to provide the machine with a reliable coordinate system to match a board with the machine.

I commented on this point in an earlier post.

We've seen plenty of videos where the machine successfully repeats its placement accurately on panelized boards (with fids). The fact that the first board is mostly correct is a promising start.

Do you have any boards or panels with fids?

[thommo]

I've been meaning to ask this question for some time.

Is the software version information available in the interface?
If so, what versions are you two guys running? Is it the same?

This may explain why Ichan sees different options to Elmood.

Thanks Elmood, i will try it tomorrow.

How to set the mark points in import file mode? The align function is disabled, i fill the coordinates from the CAD manually on it.

-ichan

[mikeselectricstuff]

Question for anyone with the rail option - will it cope with nonstandard thicknesses?
Presumably you can disable the rail feed and use a static fixture?

[thommo]

Ichan,
I remember Elmood reported a similar issue on 2 Mar in reply# 429, about the head going to wrong position on IC Tray. Didn't quite make it clear if that was User or Machine error in the end.

Elmood - perhaps you can comment?

[rwb]

Question for anyone with the rail option - will it cope with nonstandard thicknesses?
Presumably you can disable the rail feed and use a static fixture?

It looks to have springs that push up on the conveyor belt and apply pressure to the PCB board so from what I have seen it should work with just about any size PCB thickness.

You can see this in some of Ichan's latest videos where they are tightening up the steppers that run the rail system.

[elmood]

I believe I have 4.0.2.6 version of the software. I noticed in one of the recent Neoden videos that they have a shiny logo on the main screen which I don't have. I'm hoping that means that a new one is coming soon.

Not sure how I would get it though... I'm hoping that they will contact each customer since I doubt it will be available for download.

[thommo]

Which raises the question:
Do NeoDen provide lifetime free software upgrades, as the features roll out?
I assume they supply lifetime updates for fixes and other mods - pls confirm if you're aware, both of these circumstances.

I believe I have 4.0.2.6 version of the software. I noticed in one of the recent Neoden videos that they have a shiny logo on the main screen which I don't have. I'm hoping that means that a new one is coming soon.

Not sure how I would get it though... I'm hoping that they will contact each customer since I doubt it will be available for download.

[matseng]

Which raises the question:
Do NeoDen provide lifetime free software upgrades, as the features roll out?
I assume they supply lifetime updates for fixes and other mods - pls confirm if you're aware, both of these circumstances.

Another rather important question is: How long is "lifetime" for a product like this?  How long before they stop manufacturing a particular product and at the same time stop issuing updates and fixes for it? 

The professional big-irons have support contracts lasting for a very long time like the machine rx8pilot got. But how long will companies keep on fixing the firm- & softwares and keep spares for $10K machines - or even worse $3K ones?  Maybe for the latter price range it's not really important since it's basically pocket change for a company....
   

[Ichan]

My machine shows version 4.0.2 B7 - i wonder which one is newer.

The Vision Align as Thommo said is never enabled, i am waiting for the answer from Tony now.

-ichan

[thommo]

I'm guessing your version is 'beta7', which would normally be later than 'version 6' Ichan.

Do you have any boards with fiducials on them Ichan?

I'm absolutely positive you'll solve the align/drift issue once you run a batch of boards with a border on the panel. You can place the fids on those borders.

I know you feel limited in PCB height, but you can limit the borders to left and right only if need be.

[ServoKit]

@matseng: At least for my machine not really an issue. You can buy an almost identical head, feeders and stuff on sites like robotdigg. The only real issue is the software. If they stop working on it I'll either have to live with it or make my own.

Regards, Axel
 

[thommo]

Hi Ichan,

When I commented this morning I [mis]understood, and thought you meant the components gradually shifted/drifted to the left as they got further away from your 0.0 reference.

Looking at your pic now on a large screen, I see that ALL of the components appear to be displaced by the SAME amount over to the left of where you expected them to be.

How did you load the PnP reference data into the N4?
Was is a manual input, or were the co-ordinates imported from a PnP file?
Seems simple to conclude that what you considered to be 0.0, is in fact not.

This could also be the result of using a 'reference' footprint to set up the panel on the machine where the 'anchor point' is not in the middle of the component, and yet the machine assumes it IS in the middle. Sounds like something fairly simple whatever it is.

Unsatisfactory result today, the placement shifted to the left (Y- direction on the machine), and the bad board detection feature seems not working.


Will try again tomorrow, will add a dummy part as "first chip" for a more accurate reference and will do calibrating the nozzles first.
-ichan

[Ichan]

The shifted amount is not the same, the least shifted is the left top board while the worst is the right bottom board.

Tried using some different reference (first chip and mark points) still got some shifted placement, verified using step - vision method (works now, it need all the mark points recognized first)

Now i wonder if the pcb is not accurate in dimension, or the step / mm setting of the machine is not true.

I do not want to try with another pcb for now, this one is what i have to do asap.

-ichan

[Ichan]

Elmood, how is the Button “to curr p” works?

I always got error pressing this button.

-ichan.