SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines

[rx8pilot]

You’re wrong the guide lines take less load no need to support the rails to reach our precision. And it’s not out of manufacturers specifications! Totally useless to say they can‘t bend because the force applied to the rails is too low!

I won't bother you with technical details since that does not appear to be an interest of yours. What I will say is that telling a group of professionals that are actually potential customers [lije me] - 'You're Wrong' is a great way to have me walking away.

Keep in mind - I would be totally fine with an explanation that sound like this:
'We were focused on a design that would minimize costs and the linear bearing rail configuration reflects that. The compromise was determined to be reasonable relative to the additional cost of adding a machined and ground support. We have been careful to minimize parallelism errors, twist and bending that is typical when used in this way which can have a considerable impact on the life of the bearings.'

[Smallsmt]

We have been careful to minimize parallelism errors, twist and bending that is typical when used in this way which can have a considerable impact on the life of the bearings.'

That's the reason for the third rail!

[Koen]

I'll bite. I find SmallSMT reaction to this "group of professionals" brilliant. You three have obviously no clue what you are talking about. You are not professionals, you don't have a clue what *is* required at that price point, all you know is that it could be better if and only if it was more expensive. But then again, you aren't his clients. And you wouldn't pay the price for one of his better machines. You're only here to nitpick and try to gain yourself some authority because at the end of the day, you pretty damn well know that no seasoned professional will bother to correct your bullshit. This is the third time I call mrpackethead on it and the second time for you. If you know so well, go and do better. We'll all watch with interest. If you can't, won't, shouldn't... well stop bothering those who do. What you say isn't news to anyone in the field. Grandstanding on theoretical ideals is too easy.

[IconicPCB]

Koen,

You are wrong.

The critics are here to tell us they are going to go and offer a cheaper better machine.
A machine which will be built in the western hemisphere not some chikenshit Chinese workshop.

A machine which will be fully compliant with the windows paradigm and will need no explanation on how to run and operate it.

A machine which will feature open hardware principles so that even the semi-literates can study the design intricacies and put forward valid improvements anybody would be happy to and indeed insist on owning at zero cost.

So men...dazzle us.

[mrpackethead]

Its a 6k machine if you buy it in Germany or a 3k Machine if you buy it of TaoBao, from the OEM.

The issue is that the OP posted the video,  saying it will do 0201,  then people said it is slow, the OP said, its not intended to do 0201,  and then it just opened up a dialogue about its construction..  Its a $3k machine doing a job that its not intended to do.  From a marketing perspective.. its odd.   Oh, and when your the seller of the product,  just coming out and saying " your wrong ", is not a good look.

[Koen]

Here is an interesting customer video from russian customer.
He used a VP-2500DP https://www.smallsmt.biz/midrange-machines/ machine to place 0201 components.
It need to move slow but the result looks good.

Seems clear to me : customer has a VP-2500DP, needed to place some 0201 and it worked, albeit slowly.

mrpackethead, you've certainly made a lot of efforts not to understand the answers of Michael and to turn this thread terrible.

This very topic on April 09, 2016. Same sentence applies.

[Gary.M]

Its a 6k machine if you buy it in Germany or a 3k Machine if you buy it of TaoBao, from the OEM.

The issue is that the OP posted the video,  saying it will do 0201,  then people said it is slow, the OP said, its not intended to do 0201,  and then it just opened up a dialogue about its construction..  Its a $3k machine doing a job that its not intended to do.  From a marketing perspective.. its odd.   Oh, and when your the seller of the product,  just coming out and saying " your wrong ", is not a good look.

That's not what he said. He shared it for interest and said it showed the precision of the machine even though it was not built to do that sort of work. ie for what it was actually specced for, it's capability would be exemplary. You guys are too full of argue.

[Kjelt]

Koen, i don't know what expired before but for me it is personally interesting to understand novel or different designs. I hoped there would be some good argument and force calculations supporting this design but all I get is vague answers.
We are on a technical forum not a spiritual lets not ask difficult questions and we all get along forum.
AFAIK SmallSMT is not a sponsor of this forum so I do not see why I can not ask some more technical detailed questions or doubt a design decision?
But I will take this design to another forum where I probably will get the answers I seek, as far as building myself that is the idea, I got some parts already and as soon as my CNC is finished it will be my next project.

[Smallsmt]

Koen,

You are wrong.

The critics are here to tell us they are going to go and offer a cheaper better machine.
A machine which will be built in the western hemisphere not some chikenshit Chinese workshop.

A machine which will be fully compliant with the windows paradigm and will need no explanation on how to run and operate it.

A machine which will feature open hardware principles so that even the semi-literates can study the design intricacies and put forward valid improvements anybody would be happy to and indeed insist on owning at zero cost.

So men...dazzle us.

Nice reply so why do you assume we can build better machines at this pricepoint in western hemisphere

I paid 16000€ for VP3082 mechanics built in Germany so why do you think it's possible to build cheap machines in Europe??

My Chinese friends are doing a really good job and working hard to improve.
In the past years we did a lot of innovations.

[Gary.M]

Kjelt, are you actually involved in designing and marketing products for the real world. Sometimes the armchair generates irrelevant argument.

[Kjelt]

No not as a business, it is for my own hobby.
I am looking at different machines for info and inspiration.
I had a few months back an interesting discussion with smallsmt here about wether to use ballbearing spindles or belts and what feed per rotation the spindles should be for p&p machine to be fast and accurate. That was very educational.
I don't  think there is any business in the west to start producing p&p machines, sure not at this pricepoint, most companies are disappearing, i wonder how many from the top 25 of the 90's are still in business today.

[Smallsmt]

Koen, i don't know what expired before but for me it is personally interesting to understand novel or different designs. I hoped there would be some good argument and force calculations supporting this design but all I get is vague answers.
We are on a technical forum not a spiritual lets not ask difficult questions and we all get along forum.
AFAIK SmallSMT is not a sponsor of this forum so I do not see why I can not ask some more technical detailed questions or doubt a design decision?
But I will take this design to another forum where I probably will get the answers I seek, as far as building myself that is the idea, I got some parts already and as soon as my CNC is finished it will be my next project.

I think you have different requirements for a pick & place machine.
I have to earn money to pay for our developments.
We need to innovate constantly and we show mostly everything of our constructions.
Most of our competitors show little information to prevent the copy of their designs.
We need to pay our engineers Germans and Chinese.

[Koen]

Smallsmt > IconicPCB was sarcastic.

Kjelt > there's a few great ways to learn on your own : visit machine shops, talk to the technicians, ask why some machines have a single-side supported beam, why some have rails without bearings, why some have air bearings, why some 2x4' wood routers don't use double-supports although there's the volume for them and so on. The other one is books. I'd recommend those on the history of manufacturing as they will take you on a journey from 1850 to nowadays explaining every little improvements. The last is watching old machines rebuilds. You'll stumble upon 60 year old dudes who used to worked on them when they were 20 and are now slowly/carefully bringing them back to life for dollars on every cents and explaining why everything makes sense. Also, they'll teach you why a cheap bronze bearing spindle which nobody makes anymore may make more sense for you to cut steel than a newly bought spindle and the likes. Quick note on what I wouldn't recommend : friendly forums. Knowledgeable people don't frequent easy forums. They tried, they argued with an idiot or two and left. Now only the idiots are left. CNCZone is a great example of this. I remember one great post though : a custom CNC lathe with an indexed tool changing turret, 10 years ago maybe. And also that german guy who launched the diy "granite/epoxy" mix fade but iirc, it was a link posted to his own website. Anyhow, open your own topic, show your work and ask your questions. Just be ready to learn there might be better ways. In the end, it's for your own (finance/time/success) good. EDIT : You can easily exchange your knowledge of electronics against their knowledge of machining. The small workshop in the city has a rusting lathe because a 30cent 7805 regulator broke down on the control panel last year. It was worth 50k 10 years ago and is now worth 0 because nobody maintains them anymore except the manufacturer asking 2500 for a complete replacement board. Repair it and they'll be forever grateful. Your mileage may vary but I still repair machines from time to time and I haven't paid for machined parts in years.

[IconicPCB]

Koen.... >

[Smallsmt]

Its a 6k machine if you buy it in Germany or a 3k Machine if you buy it of TaoBao, from the OEM.

The issue is that the OP posted the video,  saying it will do 0201,  then people said it is slow, the OP said, its not intended to do 0201,  and then it just opened up a dialogue about its construction..  Its a $3k machine doing a job that its not intended to do.  From a marketing perspective.. its odd.   Oh, and when your the seller of the product,  just coming out and saying " your wrong ", is not a good look.

I said you're wrong about the unsupported rail usage!

Here is an interesting customer video from russian customer.
He used a VP-2500DP https://www.smallsmt.biz/midrange-machines/ machine to place 0201 components.
It need to move slow but the result looks good.

This was my first message!

[IconicPCB]

Just a small hint to the budding machine builders... do not use belt drive with linear encoders. 

[Smallsmt]

Linear encoders and belts can work if you calculate a  calibration value after each segment move instead of using a servo feed back loop.

[IconicPCB]

Oookayyy...
how does that work?
is positional reading used after a completed move to calculate the next incremental move on the way to target position?

Have you experimented with take back a half algorithm in preference to PID or PID with feed forward?

[rx8pilot]

You are not professionals,

To be clear. I am.
I have an enormous number of commercial products under my belt from military camera systems, to fiber optics, high-G/harsh environment stereo cameras, and piles of other complete systems. I functioned as an industrial designer, mechanical and electrical engineer. I also do nearly all of my own prototyping from complex 5 axis CNC machining to PCB's.

With that said - Anyone that is posting their commercial products on this forum are free game for criticism regardless of the price point. Not a single poster that I can see has claimed they could make a better machine or had even a small inclination to try.

The design has an unconventional element. It is probably a minor thing in the big scheme of things, but worthy of a little discussion. In the middle of the discussion - SmallSMT got rather fired up - which kind of had me laughing. I am a target customer for sure and I already have a commercial PCB assembly line that is aging and in need of replacement. I am a small business owner with a single mission - design and manufacture new products.

In short - I have a clue, but now I seriously doubt I would bother with this machine. Not because of the machine, but rather the preview of the service I would be getting after delivery. No thanks.

[Koen]

You've repeated this a few times now. I'm a great professional, I know so much, I'm totally a potential customer, I would buy one if only. You won't, you aren't interested, you only want to flatter your ego, move on.

[Smallsmt]

is positional reading used after a completed move to calculate the next incremental move on the way to target position?

Plus some statistics to update the axis calibration values.
The algorithm knows when belt tension is too low because the calibration value deviation increase.

[IconicPCB]

Thanks Michael.

 

[Kjelt]

Kjelt > there's a few great ways to learn on your own : visit machine shops, talk to the technicians, ask why some machines have a single-side supported beam, why some have rails without bearings................

They are usually quite busy as I am with my work on workdays office hours, that is why an outside office hours learning platform like a forum is a great place IMO.
But you have a point that you need the people with the knowledge to answer the questions 

You'll stumble upon 60 year old dudes who used to worked on them when they were 20 and are now slowly/carefully bringing them back to life for dollars on every cents and explaining why everything makes sense.
...
Knowledgeable people don't frequent easy forums. They tried, they argued with an idiot or two and left. Now only the idiots are left. CNCZone is a great example of this. 

You mean the global cnczone forum? I visit the dutch cnczone forum and that is a very mutual supporting forum, I got stuff for free or exchange stuff and more importantly a lot of knowledge in the help of building my cnc machine. This saturday they hold an open day so real life contact which makes it much more valuable than a forum alone. BTW my cnc machine  which is running over €9k on parts alone at the moment, so yeah I do understand that a business that sells machines around $5k has to make a lot of compromises, labour is not free either, the flying linear rails just caught my eye and curiosity that's all 

And even on electronics I learn there a lot since I never been working in power electronics, so the way motorcables are mounted with their shields to hard earth with special brackets close to the driver was also new for me, let alone mounting a vfd with multiple earth boundings, very interesting and it pays off in emc.
Never come across those topics here though. Also how to design and program triple PID routines is in my interest for my new machine, so just eager to learn and open my eyes and ears for information 

[Smallsmt]

Vision Placer software updated to V2.035 including new dispenser functions and improved dialogs.

[IconicPCB]

Is Vision Placer software common across all the machines You make?

Do You have an off line ( stand alone ) program generation / work station application?