My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project

[Xena E]

Arrogance is acceptable where there is true ability.

True personal ability is only judged by a person's peers, not themselves.

An ignorant person will claim they have no peers.

X

[SteveThackery]

We've seen excerpts from this earlier in the thread, but spare a few minutes to watch a more complete account:


Introducing The First SYNTHETIC AI HUMAN With Real Muscles (FAKE HUMANS SOON)

Three things leap out. Firstly, they are aiming for exactly the same thing as @artbyrobot: a robot indistinguishable from a human. Secondly, the quality and sophistication of the engineering is so far ahead of @artbyrobot's efforts that it makes them seem laughable.  Thirdly, these robots actually exist, move around, and are well on the way to meeting their goal. In comparison, @artbyrobot hasn't yet moved a single finger and doesn't even have a complete limb.

I invite anyone to watch that video and then come back here and express support for @artbyrobot's development methodology.  Sadly for him, he is years behind the curve and completely outclassed.

[Analog Kid]

Ah, but his robot will have "ballet-level" smoothness of movement. Can the robots on that video perform a believable pas de deux?

[xrunner]

Thanks for that. It's hard to keep up with all the quality robots out there now. I've seen the Clone Robotics work but not the SE01. The SE01 is extremely impressive. It's got a frame of aluminum extrusions and not 3D printed human bones? Go figure right?

Yea ... well the OP here can tinker with his all he wants to if he wishes, have fun dude. But by the time you get a pinky to move the game will be long, long over, which is true for you now even as we speak. Take a look at the prossesing power and computer science & engineering in those robots. What are you purporting to use? ATmega2560 and Windows 7. Your not even in the same universe as current technology for robotics.

Ah well everyone needs a hobby they enjoy so have fun.

[artbyrobot]

To me "perfect" is something which can not be improved

i don't like this definition because it walls off this word from everyday use.  Sure, a word can have many definitions and be used in multiple contexts, so this definition has its place, however, it should not be the only definition.  When my young daughter tucks in her baby doll she says "there, perfect" once it is nicely tucked in.  I would not correct her by saying well surely that one wrinkle could be improved.  It is in her view perfect because it is complete, satisfactory, and does the job well.  Even a perfect robot bone can be functioning flawlessly and strong enough for the application but can be made in titanium to be lighter and stronger which would improve on it but that does not mean it isn't perfect as is if it is working flawlessly.  So there can be degrees and levels of perfection.  Something perfect can still grow and improve.  Like a seedling can be perfect as a seedling but improve by growing into a perfect tree.

[artbyrobot]

How do you have so much confidence? I'm genuinely asking, not trolling or anything.

True confidence that is genuine, as it pertains to ability to perform a certain task specifically, comes from successfully performing tasks in the past.  From a young age, I recall struggling in school, a slower learner than other kids.  Not "getting it" as fast as others.  I was actually behind in reading because my parents never worked with me in this area and most of the other kid's parents already had them reading before they went to school.  So I was disadvantaged.  These things brought me frustration and suffering, thinking I was a failure and stupid.  I was unaware that this wasn't true I was just behind and a slower learner is all.  But this motivated me to try harder than the other kids and excel.  And throughout school and adult life I continued to work harder and excel more than my peers.  I have succeeded at countless projects and achieved everything I put my mind to in all areas of life for many decades since childhood.  I am not acquainted with failure.  Setbacks, sure, but giving up, no.  I overcome and I conquer.  And after countless times doing this, my confidence went through the roof.  My skills went through the roof.  My width and depth of knowledge and abilities across countless fields went through the roof.  So now I feel unstoppable.  And it's not faked as some suppose.  This is real confidence and it was earned the hard way.

[artbyrobot]

As to arrogance tied to homeschooling, this user seems to infer he thinks I was homeschooled.  I was not.  In fact, as a child, I was struggling to understand math and needed tutoring.  I asked my mom to help me and she told me she was not good at math and to go in my room and figure it out myself.  I did what she said and would spend hours looking at the example problems and reading the lesson until I finally "got it".  Then I REALLY understood it deeply and flourished and my confidence spiked having learned how to teach myself rather than be taught by an adult.  I then did this ever since, when I don't get things, I figure it out on my own.  I have since been able to teach myself anything I put my mind to without any tutor or teacher (other than the book writer of course who acts as the teacher but can't elaborate and answer questions in person)

[artbyrobot]

It's got a frame of aluminum extrusions and not 3D printed human bones

My dinah robot has a steel frame and the only 3d printed bones are the fingers with ABS as material and solid infill.  So your inference that my robot's bones are made of flimsy, hollow 3d prints that will break easily is false.  My Abel and Eve robots will have PVC solid cast bones which is VERY strong and a bit flexible so it won't break even if bent some.  My Adam bot will have fiberglass bones which is also very strong method.

[xrunner]

My dinah robot has a steel frame and the only 3d printed bones are the fingers with ABS as material and solid infill.  So your inference that my robot's bones are made of flimsy, hollow 3d prints that will break easily is false.  My Abel and Eve robots will have PVC solid cast bones which is VERY strong and a bit flexible so it won't break even if bent some.  My Adam bot will have fiberglass bones which is also very strong method.

Well well well, whatever happened to the ideal robot that was supposed to mimick the "perfect" human body and skeletal structure? Now you effectively deny in front of us that the human bone structure in toto is inadequate for a robot, that is actually not perfect? This is why people accuse you of constantly shifting you goalposts.

Note see pic below which clearly shows him designing the robot around a human skeleton.

[artbyrobot]

As to using a human skeleton, the 2 robots, Abel and Eve are using a literal casting of solid pvc made from a real human skeleton for medical offices.  So that stands in alignment with the CAD you just reposted.  The Adam robot is made of hand made fiberglass bones which I meticulously made using anatomical references to be just like human bones in shape and size and function.  The Dinah robot alone thus far uses a steel skeleton that somewhat diverges from the exactly human matching bones and as I said regarding that robot, it was meant to be a simpler robot with simpler to use DC motors and a simpler skeleton, that used various shortcuts and was more of a side project rather than a full realization of my ideal robot build.  However, that robot has been shelved because it comes too far short of my ideals.  It will not be done until one of my other robots finish building it for me and it will have top of the line methods used for my other robots although will not have fully human-like bones since it will use the doll skeleton which I already had and might as well use for this.  The skin that came with the doll will be used as raw material and will be used as sculpting shape reference as I make a silicone skin for some of my robots.  Although I will say I probably will not myself make silicone skin because at that stage my robots will be doing all the building on my behalf so my hands will not need to join in the build anymore at that point.

[Manul]

To me "perfect" is something which can not be improved

i don't like this definition because it walls off this word from everyday use.  Sure, a word can have many definitions and be used in multiple contexts, so this definition has its place, however, it should not be the only definition.  When my young daughter tucks in her baby doll she says "there, perfect" once it is nicely tucked in.  I would not correct her by saying well surely that one wrinkle could be improved.  It is in her view perfect because it is complete, satisfactory, and does the job well.

Obviously, cause in this case "perfect" means something along the lines of "you are ready to go to sleep". It's quite common for words to have different meanings across different areas. Yet it does not mean that definitions can be transferred. For instance, a painting might be declared perfect, simply because the artist feels that it perfectly expresses an idea. You can't transfer this to technology, cause contrary to art, no matter how you feel about it, it must first of all work and not fail. Not only that, but we evaluate cost, efficiency, maintenance and many other factors. Thus there are no perfect things in technology.

[KerimF]

Thus there are no perfect things in technology.

Yes, in technology, there are optimum solutions only; each satisfies best a given set of conditions.

[artbyrobot]

I got done cutting out the pulley discs and drilling them and mounting them to the thumb tacks and gluing them in place with 401 glue using a sewing needle tip as the applicator. They all are reasonably square and solidly in place I think. Everything is moving freely. Everything seems lined up okay. I then mounted them all to the 2430 bldc motor.



These thumb tack based pulleys still need to be lashed down well and the lashings (upholstery thread) need to be coated in 401 glue to make them stiff and solid. I also need to add pulley discs to the 2430 bldc motor that are to line up well with the pulley disc slots the string is to go to. I then need to wind up the string sections themselves, loading up the system in preparation for actual testing.

[ebastler]

I got done cutting out the pulley discs and drilling them and mounting them to the thumb tacks and gluing them in place [...]
I then mounted them all to the 2430 bldc motor.

I'm not sure I follow. How is a set of reels, all with fixed axles mounted on a common platform (the motor), meant to provide reduction? Do you have a schematic drawing of the full arrangement including the string routing?

[artbyrobot]

I got done cutting out the pulley discs and drilling them and mounting them to the thumb tacks and gluing them in place [...]
I then mounted them all to the 2430 bldc motor.

I'm not sure I follow. How is a set of reels, all with fixed axles mounted on a common platform (the motor), meant to provide reduction? Do you have a schematic drawing of the full arrangement including the string routing?

yes I do it was posted earlier in this thread.  And no it is not fixed.  I explained also earlier in this thread that the thumb tacks have #2 fishing crimp sleeves placed over them first which act as the outer race of a plain bearing.  Everything in this setup spins freely.

[ebastler]

yes I do it was posted earlier in this thread.  And no it is not fixed.  I explained also earlier in this thread that the thumb tacks have #2 fishing crimp sleeves placed over them first which act as the outer race of a plain bearing.  Everything in this setup spins freely.

That's not what I meant. I am not wondering about friction, but about the mechanism which would provide a reduction in travel and an increase in force. Common reduction pulleys achieve this via a moving block (an axle with one or several rollers which is supported by the rope only) which trades speed for force.

I don't see that in your photo. Your thumbtack axles are supporting little sleeves/rollers, but the axles themselves are all stationary, right? Same in the sketch you posted earlier, https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/my-advanced-realistic-humanoid-robots-project-441835/msg5672291/#msg5672291 . So how is a reduction obtained?

[artbyrobot]

The reduction is explained in this photo: 


each shaft of normal size will be winching a rope that later wraps onto a shaft of 2-2.5x the normal shaft size.  This means that for every turn of the prior shaft, the following shaft only turns half as much.  This is because the circumference of one shaft is the amount of rope winched and the circumference of the doubly large shaft is twice as much circumference so that second shaft will require the first shaft to turn twice as much for the second shaft to make a single turn.  Then the next shaft in line from the 2x shaft drops back down to a 1x size shaft and since the 2x shaft only turned half as much, this 3rd shaft translates that 1/2 turn ratio into itself and so on.  If you understand gears, it is exactly the same except instead of gear cogs you are just using rope to turn the next one in line. 

[ebastler]

Ah -- so it's not a pulley in the narrow sense I had understood it to be. ("Flaschenzug" in German. Pulley seems to be used more broadly in English, for various rope & roller arrangements.)

Ok, that will provide a reduction. But with many separate pieces of string and slack in each sleeve bearing, slack (backlash) in the overall drive train may become an issue?

[artbyrobot]

I wasn't aware this would be called something other than pulley downgearing.  I am not aware of any other candidate word to describe this.  I think pulley is the appropriate word in english - given a lack of any alternative words in english for this setup.

As far as backlash and slack, I don't know how much of an issue it can be.  My biggest concern would be the string coming off the pulley and out of its track.  I've been visualizing solutions to this to prevent it but don't know if it will ever be an issue.  I'm entering into a world of unknowns here and can only simulate so much in my imagination without hard data to fine tune it all in my head.  I am crossing my fingers on this so far.  Testing will be needed to see what's what and figure out any downsides.  I will then tweak the design as needed to rid myself of any deal breakers if any do show up. 

One advantage of this is it is very compact, another is it should be silent.  Another is it is light weight.  Another is it is 64:1 roughly.  Another is it is backdriveable and compliant.

[Zero999]

Arrogance is acceptable where there is true ability.

True personal ability is only judged by a person's peers, not themselves.

An ignorant person will claim they have no peers.

X

You're right about a person's ability can only be judged by their peers, I wouldn't say arrogance is acceptable, were there is true ability. A competant person wouldn't be arrogant, because they should be aware of their limitations.

[joeqsmith]

As to arrogance tied to homeschooling, this user seems to infer he thinks I was homeschooled.  I was not.  ...

I can understand your perspective but if I wanted to know your background, I would have asked.  Rather I merely provided a link to a past discussion about home schooling being a potential source of arrogance. 

Arrogance is acceptable where there is true ability.

True personal ability is only judged by a person's peers, not themselves.

An ignorant person will claim they have no peers.

X

You're right about a person's ability can only be judged by their peers, I wouldn't say arrogance is acceptable, were there is true ability. A competant person wouldn't be arrogant, because they should be aware of their limitations.

I have worked with a lot of very competent people who come across as arrogant, myself included.  I tend to align more X.  It really doesn't bother me if you have something to contribute to the table.   I have also known some very arrogant people who had nothing to offer outside of being loud, and opinionated.  I have little to no respect for them.

[joeqsmith]

Thumbtacks and hand cut out plastic disks...  Just another good example of what I consider poor workmanship.   It looks more like a high school science project than something I would consider a business.   I have yet to see a motor connected to one of your pulleys with string, making any sort of movement.   I'm guessing the one bent finger you showed was you, pulling on the string.  Unimpressive to say the least. 

Still we all have to start somewhere. We also have different idea/views on how to solve problems.  Carry on.   

After reading your webpage background,  I am curious about your other two companies.  Do you have links to these as well? 

[xrunner]

I have yet to see a motor connected to one of your pulleys with string, making any sort of movement.   I'm guessing the one bent finger you showed was you, pulling on the string.  Unimpressive to say the least. 

Where has he shown this motor and plate arrangement of pulleys with lines being fully tested? I can find no video where this has been mounted on a test bench, with lines fully run, with a controller and power supply, with a test weight, with measurements of power being consumed, with some control programming being learned and tested. Where has he shown it will actually work with no issues for an extended run time under load?

I know from experience you either won't answer this OR will do so evasively, so I'll mainly direct this to the audience out there reading. No experienced engineer or even good hobbyist would be jumping ahead to the point of test mounting this assembly as if it was finalized without a good amount of testing ahead of it. You wouldn't waste time doing this without a very good sense of how it actually works in reality, because all the work put into mounting it might be wasted. You don't know for certain it will do the job intended. You might have to use an entirely different system to move the robot's appendages. That's what the test bench is for.

As far as backlash and slack, I don't know how much of an issue it can be.  My biggest concern would be the string coming off the pulley and out of its track.  I've been visualizing solutions to this to prevent it but don't know if it will ever be an issue.  I'm entering into a world of unknowns here and can only simulate so much in my imagination without hard data to fine tune it all in my head.  I am crossing my fingers on this so far.  Testing will be needed to see what's what and figure out any downsides.  I will then tweak the design as needed to rid myself of any deal breakers if any do show up. 

The bolding is mine. He actually states this above -

I'm entering into a world of unknowns here and can only simulate so much in my imagination without hard data to fine tune it all in my head.  I am crossing my fingers on this so far.

Can you imagine any engineer in a company being asked the following -

Boss: "Hey Smith I was wondering how the testing was going for the new moon roof design were going to use in our new SUV this year, specifically the drive motor?"

Smith" "Well I'm currently visualizing solutions sir, sortof with my imagination."

Boss: "Still? Don't you think we need to test some functional parts out in the lab area?"

Smith: "Well sir I'm entering into a world of unknowns here and can only simulate so much in my imagination without hard data to fine tune it all in my head."

Boss: "That's what I mean. When are you going to get some hard data for the motor we need to use - test some?"

Smith: "I don't know, but I am going to go ahead and look at how to mount something in the vehicle."

Boss: " "

No assembly of motor, controller, pulleys, power supply, weight has been tested on a bench, but he jumps forward to looking at how to mount it. This is not the way to do things for a project. Yea backlash, slack, slippage, strings coming off pulleys, the finer aspects of the pulley design, motor functionality, response to commands ... why is he talking about it and not testing beforehand? Your imagination is good for the robot's hair and skin color, but not for this.

There is nothing in the current video named below that shows any functional testing of the motor and pulley arrangement. Almost all that's presented are drawings and art. As I've said in earlier posts, I can find no testing of this anywhere on a bench in any video. Yet we find it being test mounted on a robot assembly.

The drawings and art are the beginning, and the mounting in the larger assembly is closer to the end. There is no "middle" such as all the testing mentioned above. Please readers, think about what this person is doing and reach your own conclusions.

Current video title -

Response to Criticism Over My Motor Selection and Why High KV is OK | Building Humanoid Robots #210

[ebastler]

Thumbtacks and hand cut out plastic disks...  Just another good example of what I consider poor workmanship. It looks more like a high school science project than something I would consider a business.
[...]
After reading your webpage background,  I am curious about your other two companies.  Do you have links to these as well?

Let's be fair -- I don't think artbyrobot has pitched this effort as a business of his. I understand it to be a hobby project.

I agree that the solutions are sub-par and will probably hamper the performance of even this proof-of-concept implementation: Loose bearings, loose strings, thumbtacks bending or breaking in the higher-force section of the drive, strings getting caught on the rough-cut disks all appear to be likely failure modes. It would have been easy to make something a bit cleaner, even with homebrew means, I think. 

While I'm aware of one business the OP runs, that's not for me to disclose. It is unrelated to robotics or other high-tech fields and is relatively small.

[joeqsmith]

Thumbtacks and hand cut out plastic disks...  Just another good example of what I consider poor workmanship. It looks more like a high school science project than something I would consider a business.
[...]
After reading your webpage background,  I am curious about your other two companies.  Do you have links to these as well?

Let's be fair -- I don't think artbyrobot has pitched this effort as a business of his. I understand it to be a hobby project.

Being fair is sticking to the facts.  I was clear I had read their webpage.