Welding - Stick, TIG and MIG

[coppercone2]

never under estimate looking cool, there is a reason people buy 20k suits and expensive cars


but the chassis of the laser welder leaves something to be desired LOL. you can put a tea cloth on top of that and it still looks bad

its kind of like a hand model. you don't know that its attached to big bertha

[coppercone2]

FYI,

Tig welding the distance between the electrode and the surface should be about 1 to 1.5 the width of the electrode' be a good starting point, only time you need to watch is Alu as it tends to suck up drawn to the electrode. so you have to rise and fall with the puddle, Other than that this ensures proper heat control into the metal, end result you end up welding on higher current, faster welding and less distortion in the metal, espc when positional welding 3G->6G etc.


J.

You know, I don't have much experiance yet because last year it was basically fixing the machine and table. Today I kept wondering what the fuck kind of swiss robot hands people have for this, because I thought the rule was 3x ROD DIAMETER sitck out maximum for my gas lens. I really was trying to weld like that. I see they say its the diameter of the cup. 

I got the rules mixed up and made it impossible for myself. The arc distance is rod diameter ratio and the stickout is gas lens ratio. I thought both were related to the rod diameter and I was wondering how the fuck people maintain that kind of clearance... 🤨 it is like playing operation with a lighting bolt. When I contaminated the second rod I thought I gotta sit down and hit the books for a bit LOL


But I did witness how the Aluminum gets sucked up on the electrode. Wow... I don't think its even wicking, it like shoots up on there. I guess some kind of electrochemical migration. It almost feels like it teleports. One instance later there is like a big blob of aluminum. And it does not just bulb on the tip, it bulbs above the tip. I think its getting stripped from the tip so its kinda like feeding contamination steadily into the arc from the molten droplet of aluminum right above the grind area.


I think I am just going to buy 1/8 and 1/16 regular steel coupons in a large amount and practice on that because I am going no where here. I just get stress from looking at alumimum plates not sticking together/molten material not sticking together. I have seen it happen so many times where they do not fuse that I get agitation just thinking about aluminum that is butted together. lmfao.I am surprised the person that had to invent this process did not hang themselves. I am thinking they had to be a very non standard person. I got used to seeing solder not behaving like this and when i see this behavior from the molten metal it makes me feel extremely agitated. I can imagine that the person that invented aluminum welding could take a dagger in the back while drinking their tea and say something along the lines of "there might be a mosquito in the room sir"

and maybe I can try tig brazing if I get just steel coupon instead of trying to do this crazy shit

[jpanhalt]

I think I am just going to buy 1/8 and 1/16 regular steel coupons in a large amount and practice on that because I am going no where here.

That sounds reasonable.  RTFM first.

I am thinking they had to be a very non standard person. I got used to seeing solder not behaving like this and when i see this behavior from the molten metal it makes me feel extremely agitated. I can imagine that the person that invented aluminum welding could take a dagger in the back while drinking their tea and say something along the lines of "there might be a mosquito in the room sir"

The people who developed TIG  and particularly its use for aluminum were just ordinary smart people at Northrop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_tungsten_arc_welding#:~:text=In%20early%201940s%20Northrop%20Aircraft,torch%20design%20was%20patented%20by
They were careful and skillful.  Today, TIG (and MIG ) for aluminum is done by thousands.

[coppercone2]

And my experiments were on a big copper chill plate and the clamps that are aluminum so don’t think fixturing might make it too easy if you are looking for hacks

What I am curious about is if there was  hcl was added to the welding gas. The interesting thing is that it might react with the aluminum oxide to make aluminum chloride which would sublime off the weld despite being corrosive. Obviously impossible to implement with regular equipment (remake in tantalum or something) but I wonder if we will ever see that kind of technology . I know the ac balance cleans but I bet there is something else that can be done

[JimboJack]

From school you need at least  1/4" or 6mm rolled bar stock to practice min for TIG welding for If you too thin metal it hard to learn at first , root pass 1st, hot pass 2nd, layers..... then capping
and GAS many tanks get one that can deliver swap gas its why welding school can be cheaper as they just rent the bottles,. some schools allow you to just hire the bays,

you might find a traditional old school non sensor flip up  welding mask works better as the sensor does not glare, with a clip on welding hood out back and if you have time make a custom front leather bib stops all external light entering and you see the weld puddle really well, not effect by sensors getting blocked, and turning off,

 




J.

[coppercone2]

I thought about that too, I swore the mask was being a little funny because I had to change the batteries from last year but it almost seems like it improved in performance I chalked it up to old coin cells (I believe that they can get a bit of passivization or something on the electrodes inside of the cell that give them ESR and funny behavior after long disuse)... coin cells are funny.. they are pressure sensitive too (mechanical). The one in the mask were dead and my 2450 are old.

it annoyed me twice or trice and it felt like it was not responding properly but then it seemed to behave OK. I wish they put 2x AAA there instead of coins

I think the old unused cell gets formed a bit when its left in a holder and the performance improves because of the slight clamping of the spring contacts. They change behavior in general when you put pressure on them. We don't see it as EE for memory backup devices because they don't really spike too much, but low power gadgets use the cells differently, they often spike a high current (in the miliamps). My car remote was also acting funny when I swapped cells out because of a low battery alarm. Just testing it with the DMM does not tell you that much about how it will perform when its pulse loaded. Sometimes they have a preposterously high ESR for a while, intermittantly after long periods of sitting.

At least they should put a nice contact on it, instead of these little bubble gum wrapper clamps, but then you need a tool to remove it and consumers are too dumb, so you end up with a tiny little paper thin contact that just assumes the cell is perfect. Its most reliable with a heavy leaf spring, like a keystone holder, which is 2x the size of the battery LOL


it neeeds this
https://www.rapidonline.com/keystone-1025-24mm-coin-cell-holder-for-1-x-2450-or-2-x-2430-18-3626

[coppercone2]

alright I got many steel coupons and some 1/4 inch aluminum ones too.

Wow I hate buying that, I have always been super frugal with my metal where every scrap can be processed and stored for brackets and shit, the idea of wasting thick metal is horrible, but I looked at the cost for a welding class lol

I thought about doing it myself but I don't think I will be focusing on welding if I am processing plasma cut stuff, and I noticed that flat bar never really came in beautiful, the coupons are like sealed and come out looking good... steel processing is dirty work. I know if I buy flat bars its going to come with a big ass stain in the middle between them, sharp edges, etc

I have the 3/32 zirconated tungsten for aluminum, when I did my piece it seemed to work better when it finally kinda melted into a ball shape. I notized the LAYZR tungsten does not ball up as much as the zirconium one. 1/8 aluminum worked better then 1/16 but I will just try the steel for now


I swear its like going through the looking glass
1) sharper tip means less penetration
2) longer distance from tip means more heat and melting (constant current)
3) thinner materials and lower power levels are harder to accomplish






Also in todays try with 1/8 aluminum, I got it molten, and stuck together, and the bottom is molten, but it looks like it has a seam. Like the middle of the two plates there is still a seam like a couch cushion. I need to see if that happens with the argon block. I guess you can say it looks like weird butt cheeks. It also looks like it has pepper on the top. I think that means the cleaner is too high, it mostly went away when I set from 75 to 65 but i dipped the rod and called it a night

[jpanhalt]

you might find a traditional old school non sensor flip up  welding mask works better as the sensor does not glare
J.

I had suspected the same thing earlier, then with the complete solar eclipse we had, I tried both helmets.  The old school was clearer.  Reflections in the auto dimming helmet gave double images.  For structural and MIG, I will probably continue to use the auto dimming. For TIG and detailed work, I will go back to my old school. 

[coppercone2]

I think the one I have is not dark enough. When set to 120a it seemed too bright when set to 11

I tried cheap and expensive eclipse glasses and the cheap ones were brighter and did not have a mirror like coating, while the higher quality ones attenuated more light and had a metallic finish,they were less clear however… for the eclipse. They both had the same rating but looked substantially different . I did not think there would be so much difference from just paper glasses lol

[coppercone2]

Lol I found my 3/16 Al coupons and i feel a new hope for humanity etc. I actually stuck two plates together with a weld bead close to that of a bad acetylene weld.


The 3/32 zirconated tungsten starts to freaking melt pretty bad (it looks like a BB after a while) and the weld either has pepper on it with high cleaning or looks like it has the middle blown out of it with small bombs on low cleaning. Machine is set to 140A so maybe its a bit high for that one, at 140Hz ... actually I am probobly holding it too far and the extra heat is doing it

I actually have a small amount of time to think with this materials thickness and can feed the rod in to make something that at least has the shape of a weld bead. Its kinda freaky

I noticed these god damn coupons have like a aluminum oxide inclusion on the side, I had to remove quite a bit of the edge to get it shiny. this weld looks like it might hold for a little while to some damage. I will have to resharpen 4 contaminated tungstens for 8 inches of weld bead and the gas screen looks like it was in a smoker lol




There seems to be mad undocumented shit relating to balance , argon flow, shield type (I think the standard tip instead of gas lens might cool the tungsten more ? or less? who knows) and tungsten ampacity. I bought some 1/8 tungstens just incase, its really bugging me. I have a feeling people are unsure and they don't wanna do a cheap experiment. I wanna see what it does anyway. I am interested in the work function and its effects whatever it might be. I got zirconium and LaZYr types for 1/8. I can do my own experiments that I was interested in. I wanted to do experiments on like highly polished materials and arc starting for research irrelevant to manufacturing (plasma science), possibly still something wiht langmuir probe. Feels like its fucking around with a rocket engine nozzle or something, crazy how much heat is in that little rod. I got the little tub of chemical sharpener too, I am interested in what the surface finish looks like of the rod compared to grinding, it is like high temperature chemical polishing, fascinating in its own right



lmfao, and much like a cast away, I realized now how agressive that TIG light is. For sticks and wires I always was pretty well armored because it spews so much garbage, with this one I had some bare skin showing because its tame and wow I got mild roasting from doing only a little bit of welding. I did not notice anything before from doing sheet metal but when the amps went up the skin can't take it anymore. I thought I would be safe to at least like 180 amps for short exposures to small amounts of flesh. 

like a bikini line for your gloves.

[jpanhalt]

Nice selfie.

Oops, maybe not.  Seems to be copyrighted: https://www.sebald.com/2020/05/23/iiiich-habe-feuer-gemacht/

[coppercone2]

chem sharp is interesting.

You simply heat it with a torch and submerge it in a salt bucket and it starts reacting (glowing orange) and if you keep poking it it comes out really sharp, but you can make a rounded thing too. The surface finish is pretty nice

Absolutely wear gloves and goggles because it spits out little molten salt balls like a road flare (to a much lesser extent) that sting a little

You don't get a nice machined taper but its a electron emitter so that might not be important. A small blow torch is enough to heat it up.


If you dip a ground tip in there, it kinda smooths it out a little bit, but it can cause some minor scaring of the rod above it..

I got them very clean looking after I washed it, used a dremel brillo (600 grit) and then washed it again. Perhaps its an alternative to flattening the ground tip if your good with it if you want a ground tip. If you just use chem sharp the brillo is not necessary, I just had my diamond grind a bit too fast so there was some discoloration on some of the rods that I just sharpened mechanically, so I decided to buff all of them.


That diamond disk wears out pretty fast on a 1/8 electrode, so the chem sharp has some real potential there, because its less of a pain in the ass.


Certainly the most satisfying sharpening method I have ever seen. the more you poke the sharper it gets.




Does anyone know about exotic tig electrodes? I found that there is yttrium, La, Ce, Zr and Th and mixtures of them. But there must be more. Dysprosium, Strontium, Hafnium, Holmium, Pr, Niobium, Sm, Eu, Gd, Tb, Dy, Er, Tm, Yb. ... the electrode is more interesting then the welding machine to me

[coppercone2]

wow I did my first weld joint that looks like you can fool someone with it on 3/16 normal steel. I tried the first pass at 140A and it looked pretty OK but it did not penetrate, so I played around on the plate and did the other side with 190A. This did melt the tip of the LaZYr 3/32 tungsten rod into a ... explodey thingy (like cracked up, like a old tree stump) ... so I think you need 1/8 for this current. I start to see it looks fucked up under the arc, like its cracked wood.


Hard to stomache buying such thick metal for practice but wow I don't feel like punching a hole in the wall

I think I need a 1/8 filler rod for this thick ness too, because the 1/16 was too hectic , I just don't have it yet.

I did dip the rod in the other side towards the end because I was getting tired, I don't see like immediate catastrophic effects from dipping the tungsten in the pool of steel. With aluminum it goes brezerk


I did notice something strange too, I got a herbal odor when it was at 190 amps. Like kitchen herbs. I wonder if its something in the plastic helmet? I am thinking the intense light makes something decompose.


I need higher quality coupons too, because these have like oxide on the side, you can file it for a while and there is still like a river of oxide on the side cut. It pisses me off. I bought it so I don't need the grinder but I need a grinder 

[jpanhalt]

1) Pictures would help others to give advice.
2) Current ratings for electrodes are readily available.  Generally, ranges are given.  For 190A, you probably want 3/32" or 1/8".
3) Penetration is a combination of technique and current. That applies to all methods of welding.  I was taught to go by sight and sound during welding once in the ballpark for current.  Surface appearance can be very misleading.  It is said that the person doing the welding is the best judge of weld quality.  You also need to consider the heat affected zone.

[JimboJack]

like to know

1. What material you are welding ?
2. Type of weld ?  is is Butt, Fillet, Groove ?
3. What welding process ? STICk, MIG, TIG ?


J.

[coppercone2]

I got a big shoe box of steel coupons that I need to practice more on with tig

right now, with the thicker metal, I am at the point where I can actually follow guides/tutorials on how to improve my technique. With the thinner metal it was failing so fast and hard that it was just leaving me confused.

what I am saying is that going to that 3/16 inch mild steel is like finally seeing daylight in a tunnel, trying to learn anything on thin metal was basically useless



my recommendation to anyone is to heed the warning about not trying to learn with thin metals,its not productive, and you get confused about what the problem might be because it happens too fast and its too unstable etc

[tautech]

I got a big shoe box of steel coupons that I need to practice more on with tig

right now, with the thicker metal, I am at the point where I can actually follow guides/tutorials on how to improve my technique. With the thinner metal it was failing so fast and hard that it was just leaving me confused.

what I am saying is that going to that 3/16 inch mild steel is like finally seeing daylight in a tunnel, trying to learn anything on thin metal was basically useless



my recommendation to anyone is to heed the warning about not trying to learn with thin metals,its not productive, and you get confused about what the problem might be because it happens too fast and its too unstable etc

Do you have a treadle ?

They are very useful with TIG where the max current setting you make on the base unit and the treadle allows you to constantly vary the amperage up to the max you have set.

Materials that have any significant mass need be preheated with higher current then back off some with the treadle to maintain weld pool control.
Dead easy once you get the hang of it.

[coppercone2]

I do have that but I find its like learning to drive a car for the first time, and having a concrete shoe

its really similar to the things you see in a typical 'drivers ed' gag

the thick metal makes it like having a car that takes 10 seconds to get to 15mph , instead of a hover bike with rocket engines. every time you blow a hole in the metal its like going through a garage door. every warped coupon is a trash can hit and touching the tungsten is like hitting the curb

I know what I am thinking about, its a land speeder vs a garbage truck

[tautech]

Learn to use the treadle !

With little experience you get to know/estimate the current required, then set the unit for a bit more then feather the treadle for best pool control.

45 years ago I learnt to do this and you can too !

[coppercone2]

I am using it, it helps with not melting the ends, but its not a magic solution by any means. thats the land speeder throttle

slowly back out of the garage, drive around the street without hitting the curb, go back into garage


and feeding the puddle is just as simple as buying macdonalds from a van while going down the highway at 60, from the puddles point of view. or just simple mid air refueling

[tautech]

When using TIG and to keep costs down weld/gas time should be managed and this is where the treadle combined with max settings helps immensely.

Pour the curry in until the subject is up to heat then back way off for precise and low heat weld/fill.

Or just hit it hard with MIG or arc....if skill is sufficient.

[jpanhalt]

It agree with tautech.  Learn to use the foot control.  I have used it since the very start and can't remember a time using TIG without it.  TIG is not like stick or MIG.

[JimboJack]

No need to use a pedel unless your welding alu

this the settings for welding steel 6mm steel coupons with a bevel when required,on G
(root pass) (hot pass) , (many passes/capping)
4F  (90,120,130)
2G  (90,130,140) -3.2mm gap
3G (90,130,140)  -3.2mm gap
2F (95,130,140)

[coppercone2]

what is G

I am waiting to get my sleeves because I got bad sun burn the last time I was trying, I hate long sleeves shirt so I thought maybe the sleeves might work, so I don't need to keep smearing myself with linen oil


I think this thread is a good place to put high quality welding tutorials. I thought this is excellent for acetylene. Easy to find little tidbits, but this one is a 'full feature' with... production standards related to a organization ? This one as a "golf commentator" style to it



Anyone got a similar one for different welding processes in that style?  worked my brain off to get that tig welder working and I don't wanna go back to trying to deal with fire unless I Have a good reason.. but that video was still fascinating to watch

[JimboJack]

G - Groove , bevel is required between two metal pieces number is position, 2G,3G,4G,5G,6G
TIG you don't have a face on the bevel, only Stick has a landing face.