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-l liken Open Source to vegetarian food. If something is described as vegetarian, then it should contain no meat. It's really simple. In the same way, if an Open Source design has a programmable chip, the firmware must be open source-
Does it matter then if everything in an open source design is open? For example, is it sufficient that the chips firmware source code is open? Or the firnwares binary is openly available? Or if the microcode in the chip is open? Or the chips design is open?...
Is., how open is your -open -? -
I liken Open Source to vegetarian food. If something is described as vegetarian, then it should contain no meat. It's really simple. In the same way, if an Open Source design has a programmable chip, the firmware must be open source.
Ha, go read 100+ page long discussions whether eating eggs is true vegetarian
In reality, there is no way for you to know that this chip even has firmware.
And I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, I myself like to see as much of this stuff open as possible, but sometimes big corporations just can't even if they want. This EDBG code may contain some programming algorithm for a chip designed for military applications or specific customer, so it can not be disclosed. -
Ha, go read 100+ page long discussions whether eating eggs is true vegetarian
no need waste time read 100+ page, just eat the egg if you feel like, you wont die (unless you have allergic nothing to do with veggy or not), people ate meat they didnt die, people ate nasty meat (that other non-veggy people dont eat) they didnt die. our teeth structure is omnivor-like, so you should learn something from the nature.... vegetarians live in there own "delusion" but we have no objection since pretty much everything on this earth is a "delusion", being either vebetarian or not are not wrong, both will not do any harm and will not die due to the cause... what is possibly more harmfull is wasting time reading pages and then hating or killing each other. what is wrong when you try enforce others to do something (cannot be proven to be absolute right) that they dont like to do. back to this OSSHW, i read there's a clause in a license that you can mix proprietary (paid) and open source elements in your SW/HW. that can be done. if you expect everything has to be open source down to FR4 or the plastic enclosure chemical mixture element and processes then you are delusional imho. simply, if you like it... participate. if not then dont. -
The story at Make:
http://makezine.com/2015/03/19/massimo-banzi-fighting-for-arduino/ -
Sigh...
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The story at Make:
http://makezine.com/2015/03/19/massimo-banzi-fighting-for-arduino/
Stuff like that can shorten your life. The brand is going to take a beating. -
You can't really judge after hearing only one side.
You don't have to "judge" anything or take EITHER "side" to see that there is a messy conflict here.
It is always sad to see people resort to legal wrangling vs. simply "building a better mousetrap". -
I can't really see how Arduino LLC can survive, if Arduino SRL are selling boards and not giving royalties to the LLC. Really, they "have them by the balls" which is probably an Italian expression. When it comes to funding a legal fight, which could drag on for a year or two, they (LLC) will simply run out of money. It's the LLC that develop the IDE and run all the community stuff.
It's not obvious who will get control of the trademark, the judge will not rule on what agreements were in place between founders, only what legal entity had prior use of the mark. That could rule in favour of Arduino SRL.
Although Arduino has a lot of users, there are vanishingly few developers. And of those, many would like to see a lot of technical changes (connector spacing!). In order to maintain a viable project, it needs a central authority to oversee it. Otherwise, it will fizzle out into numerous incompatible forks, or will simply decay. Leaflabs Maple is an example of that.
It probably doesn't need saying, but the Arduino team are obviously amateur businessmen, and have made a lot of management mistakes over time. They let it drag on to a point it is now out of control, they should have nipped it in the bud. They would be better rebranding as "Real Arduino" and simply get on with it, rather than wasting money on what is largely a point of principle. I think a real business person would follow the rule "be ruthless or be pragmatic".
In the long run, 8 bit AVR is a dead-end, so perhaps Arduino has had it's time anyway?
As for those outside Arduino, and who were never target users, there probably is nothing to care about. The Open Source nature adds an extra angle, but in reality founder splits and trademark battles are par for the course in ordinary closed source businesses.
Although, I am coming to the conclusion that Open Source Hardware is an impossible business model to keep going. I was probably naive to think otherwise. -
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I can't really see how Arduino LLC can survive, if Arduino SRL are selling boards and not giving royalties to the LLC.
It depends on whether they have other sources of income. I think Adafruit and Sparkfun both manufacture Arduino derivatives at places other than Smart Projects, and they may send royalties/contributions to LLC (that's been implied, in the past.) I'm not sure about other places (Sainsmart, OSEEP, Seeed...)Quote8 bit AVR is a dead-end
I dunno. The ATmega328 has the "right size" and "right complexity" for the sorts of things that Arduino was originally meant to do. IMO, it's the recent attempts to branch into "Raspberry Pi" territory (Yun, Galileo, even Due (to a lesser extent)) that are misplaced.
They're too complicated, and the other players are too hard to compete against.QuoteOpen Source Hardware is an impossible business model to keep going.
Perhaps. All businesses are "hard to keep going." Ten years and quite a bit of fame and mindshare isn't a bad legacy, even if it ends now.
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I can't really see how Arduino LLC can survive, if Arduino SRL are selling boards and not giving royalties to the LLC. Really, they "have them by the balls" which is probably an Italian expression.
I see the opposite.
Arduino SRL might be selling boards, but it sounds like they have no plans to actually do anything else, and their name is basically mud. And they only have the trademark in Italy. The only thing they have going for them are the established channels and the Italian Trademark. And I'm willing to bet that the Italian market is tiny compared to the rest of the world.
Arduino LLC on the other hand have:
- The trademark in every other country
- All the big names and the public figure head in Massimo Banzi.
- arduino.cc and the whole community around that.
- They control the development
All they need start doing is selling their own boards and they are back in business.QuoteWhen it comes to funding a legal fight, which could drag on for a year or two, they (LLC) will simply run out of money. It's the LLC that develop the IDE and run all the community stuff.
That is why they should instantly start doing something real about.
Go to the community and the major distributors like Adafruit and Sparkfun etc and plead that they are going to go out of business unless people and dealers back them.
Start a marketing campaign dissing Arduino SRL (which they have effectively already started) and hammer it home to everyone that they are a cop-out commercial arm that don't even deserve the the .org domain name. Make it front and centre on your website and keep it there until the other guy goes out of business.
Start giving new boards trademarked names if you have to and only having the software officially support those from now on.
If Arduino SRL don't have the trademark rights outside of Italy then start a fight actively engaging distributors who sell their products outside of Italy.QuoteIt's not obvious who will get control of the trademark, the judge will not rule on what agreements were in place between founders, only what legal entity had prior use of the mark. That could rule in favour of Arduino SRL.
I thought Arduino LLC have it in the US and other places and have actively operated on it for years. Surely that can't be taken from them?QuoteAlthough Arduino has a lot of users, there are vanishingly few developers. And of those, many would like to see a lot of technical changes (connector spacing!). In order to maintain a viable project, it needs a central authority to oversee it. Otherwise, it will fizzle out into numerous incompatible forks, or will simply decay. Leaflabs Maple is an example of that.
Exactly, and that is why I see Arduino LLC having the upper hand here. They are the developers.QuoteIt probably doesn't need saying, but the Arduino team are obviously amateur businessmen, and have made a lot of management mistakes over time. They let it drag on to a point it is now out of control, they should have nipped it in the bud.
Yep, I'm amazed they let it go on this long. And even now they seem to not be taking it by the horns but sitting back thinking "she'll be right".QuoteThey would be better rebranding as "Real Arduino" and simply get on with it, rather than wasting money on what is largely a point of principle. I think a real business person would follow the rule "be ruthless or be pragmatic".
Yes, I would instantly withdraw all lawyers, switch brands somehow, and start making your own trademarked boards. The community will follow the developers, not some maker who quite frankly now look like complete douches (even though we haven't heard both sides of the story).QuoteAlthough, I am coming to the conclusion that Open Source Hardware is an impossible business model to keep going. I was probably naive to think otherwise.
It can work, but it seems not once the scale becomes big enough. But that's not that surprising. -
I can't really see how Arduino LLC can survive, if Arduino SRL are selling boards and not giving royalties to the LLC. Really, they "have them by the balls" which is probably an Italian expression.
I see the opposite.
Arduino SRL might be selling boards, but it sounds like they have no plans to actually do anything else, and their name is basically mud. And they only have the trademark in Italy. The only thing they have going for them are the established channels and the Italian Trademark. And I'm willing to bet that the Italian market is tiny compared to the rest of the world.
Arduino Srl have plans, they have launched Zero Pro ahead of arduino.cc, the are launched Yun Mini, they are developing the IDE for Zero Pro. They also have Federico Musto, who is a hard nosed business guy.
They are not sitting on their hands. As for the name, a lot of people do not know or really care. Most think people think arduino.org is still the official Arduino board manufacturer.QuoteArduino LLC on the other hand have:
They don't have a trademark in any country. The US application lapsed before being granted. The new one is subject to legal dispute.
- The trademark in every other countryQuote- All the big names and the public figure head in Massimo Banzi.
They do have that. How much money is that worth though?
- arduino.cc and the whole community around that.Quote- They control the development
Not really, since it is open source.QuoteAll they need start doing is selling their own boards and they are back in business.
...
That is why they should instantly start doing something real about.
Go to the community and the major distributors like Adafruit and Sparkfun etc and plead that they are going to go out of business unless people and dealers back them.
Start a marketing campaign dissing Arduino SRL (which they have effectively already started) and hammer it home to everyone that they are a cop-out commercial arm that don't even deserve the the .org domain name. Make it front and centre on your website and keep it there until the other guy goes out of business.
Start giving new boards trademarked names if you have to and only having the software officially support those from now on.
If Arduino SRL don't have the trademark rights outside of Italy then start a fight actively engaging distributors who sell their products outside of Italy.
I agree, they have to get real, no more Mr Nice Guy. The gloves are off, time to do whatever it takes to win. But Banzi and pals might be too nice for that. Their "plea for help" is already on page 2, and has a general tone "don't worry, everything will be ok".
Suing Arduino SRL wastes time and money, and can only get them back to where they were before, instead of moving forward.
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Arduino LLC on the other hand have:
Judging from the article it seems Arduino LLC has an exclusive contract with Arduino Srl (Italy) saying that they are the ones to produce the boards for Arduino LLC. That would put Arduino LLC between a rock and a hard place. It is pretty stupid to sign such a contract and pretty devious to have people sign such a contract.
All they need start doing is selling their own boards and they are back in business. -
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Suing Arduino SRL wastes time and money,
But it provides interesting conversational topics and confirmation of my suspension that it is all about money.
For that, I support their lawsuit and any counter lawsuits.
Gentlemen, start your fight!
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They are not sitting on their hands. As for the name, a lot of people do not know or really care. Most think people think arduino.org is still the official Arduino board manufacturer.
I've never cared about arduino.org All I've ever noticed and used is arduino.cc and that it's either a "genuine arduino" or it's not. I had no idea who actually made it.QuoteThey don't have a trademark in any country. The US application lapsed before being granted. The new one is subject to legal dispute.
That's not what Massimo implied in his Make article, but ok, that's changes the game a bit. But only a bit. It's actually now clearer what they have to do - ditch the Arduino name and go with something else.QuoteQuote- All the big names and the public figure head in Massimo Banzi.
They do have that. How much money is that worth though?
- arduino.cc and the whole community around that.
It's worth everything!
With this alone (+ they are the developers) they control the game.
They can influence the public perception, the community, the community, the resellers, the media etc.QuoteNot really, since it is open source.
Sure, but who else is really doing it?QuoteI agree, they have to get real, no more Mr Nice Guy. The gloves are off, time to do whatever it takes to win. But Banzi and pals might be too nice for that. Their "plea for help" is already on page 2, and has a general tone "don't worry, everything will be ok".
Suing Arduino SRL wastes time and money, and can only get them back to where they were before, instead of moving forward.
Yep, and my fear is they will fail because of this attitude, and will continue to waste what money they have on the lawyers.
First thing I would do is totally plaster arduino.cc with the story and brainstorm a new way forward, and whatever it is I'm sure the community will follow them. Arduino SRL are nothing, they have no voice. And if they lose major distributors because they are douches then they are toast.
All this laywer bullshit really pisses me off. Why can't they just agree to get along like Victorinox and Wenger did with the swiss army knife, just a handshake and a gentleman's agreement lasted them generations.
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Judging from the article it seems Arduino LLC has an exclusive contract with Arduino Srl (Italy) saying that they are the ones to produce the boards for Arduino LLC. That would put Arduino LLC between a rock and a hard place. It is pretty stupid to sign such a contract.
Why they would have done that is beyond me. What was in it for Arduino LLC?
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This war will be won in the trenches.
One of the next things I would do if I was Arduino LLC is leverage their goodwill with the major distributors, tell them the story, and ask if they can provide a royalty directly to LLC (as it seems some may already do?). AFAIK the dealers owe nothing to Arduino SRL, and there would be nothing stopping the dealers providing a royalty (or donation) to LLC for each "genuine product" sold that was produced by Arduino SRL.
And/or ask the dealers if they would consider not stocking "genuine" one any more.
Meanwhile, change brands and charge forward with that.
If Arduino LLC truly have been left high and dry with no trademarks of their own, then I don't see how they are going to win it back from SRL. That could takes year of trademark lawyers at 20 paces. Time to jump ship. -
QuoteQuote
- All the big names and the public figure head in Massimo Banzi.
They do have that. How much money is that worth though?
- arduino.cc and the whole community around that.
It's worth everything!
With this alone (+ they are the developers) they control the game.
They can influence the public perception, the community, the community, the resellers, the media etc.
On reflection, I think you nailed it.
Going after Arduino Srl for the trademark is playing their game. The real asset is the goodwill.
I raised the issue on the Adafruit fourm, if anyone I would expect them to come out to bat for Massimo Banzi and the original Arduino. This is their response:QuoteWe have information most people don't, and frankly we aren't going to share what's been said in private conversation. If people don't like that, too bad.. they're conversations by and for players with financial skin in the game.
We know the people involved, we talk with them regularly, and we aren't in the habit of screwing people over. We'll make our decisions based on what the people directly involved with the situation have to say, not on an internet rage-storm fueled by information that's third-hand at best.
So basically community activism = internet rage and can be ignored in favour of business as usual. With friends like these...!
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Arduino LLC on the other hand have:
Judging from the article it seems Arduino LLC has an exclusive contract with Arduino Srl (Italy) saying that they are the ones to produce the boards for Arduino LLC. That would put Arduino LLC between a rock and a hard place. It is pretty stupid to sign such a contract and pretty devious to have people sign such a contract.
All they need start doing is selling their own boards and they are back in business.
surely their contract would be with Smart Projects rather than Arduino SRL ?
this could be a way out maybe ?
as others have mentioned, renaming the company would be the best option, obviously making sure that the new name is registered in all countries.... -
Hi All..
Dave why not make a rant about this ?
some time ago you made one about the Pickit 3
and you made microchip listen.
i think that bassimo could use your help..
sorry for my spelling..
Claus -
Dave why not make a rant about this ?
i think that bassimo could use your help..
Thinking about it.
The problem is that we have only heard one side of the story.
I have no reason to doubt Massimo, I think he's genuine, and from (so far) a lack of response from the other side, they aren't denying it. But still, one sided.
I can run out to bat with one side, but I have to be more careful. -
I raised the issue on the Adafruit fourm, if anyone I would expect them to come out to bat for Massimo Banzi and the original Arduino. This is their response:
QuoteWe have information most people don't, and frankly we aren't going to share what's been said in private conversation. If people don't like that, too bad.. they're conversations by and for players with financial skin in the game.
We know the people involved, we talk with them regularly, and we aren't in the habit of screwing people over. We'll make our decisions based on what the people directly involved with the situation have to say, not on an internet rage-storm fueled by information that's third-hand at best.
So basically community activism = internet rage and can be ignored in favour of business as usual. With friends like these...!
Is that from Lady Ada herself?
I would have assumed that her and Massimo and the core team would be fairly tight and that they would take the side of what's best for the spirit of the OSHW community?
But on the other hand this response sounds purely commercial
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Is that from Lady Ada herself?
I would have assumed that her and Massimo and the core team would be fairly tight and that they would take the side of what's best for the spirit of the OSHW community?
But on the other hand this response sounds purely commercial
That was from "adafruit_support_mike" I think, whoever that is.
Maybe there is a hint that Martino has a side of the story that hasn't been told, but it is very easy for an aggressor to paint themselves as a victim, then who you're going to believe? Adafruit are one of arduino.org's distributors. Perhaps Arduino Srl said they are now the official Arduino, and if they want official Arduinos to sell, they play by his rules.
arduino.cc are out of stock on all boards (except a couple of lilypads). It seems they have been cut off from the supply chain. I guess that all new boards out of arduino.org will now have "arduino.org" instead of "arduino.cc" on them.
Ironically, a few months ago arduino.cc wrote about how their new color scheme and graphics would help them prevent counterfeits. At the time they knew there was a problem with Martino. Really have to wonder whether Arduino.cc are making the right decisions.
OTOH, I was surprised to learn of arduino.cc's extensive staff roster. They clearly have sufficient income to keep going without royalty payments on the hardware.
In which case, I am wondering if it is best we just leave them to sort it out themselves and not worry about it.
I think it is time to take a closer look at mbed, which really seems to be a better Arduino all round. -
I think it is time to take a closer look at mbed, which really seems to be a better Arduino all round.
Mbed is a nice idea, but the platform documentation is an absolute train wreck. You can spend your life trying to find documentation on something as simple as sleep modes. -
I guess they got suckered in somehow. Maybe the promise was to keep prices low? As a favour to a friend? Unaware of how copyright laws work? Probably the latter.Judging from the article it seems Arduino LLC has an exclusive contract with Arduino Srl (Italy) saying that they are the ones to produce the boards for Arduino LLC. That would put Arduino LLC between a rock and a hard place. It is pretty stupid to sign such a contract.
Why they would have done that is beyond me. What was in it for Arduino LLC?
According to this Italian Wired article, the cause of the split is that [Banzi] and the other three wanted to internationalize the brand and license production to other firms freely, while [Martino] and [Musto] at the company formerly known as Smart Projects want to list on the stock market and keep all production strictly in the Italian factory.
This quote is third or fourth hand information but it makes it clear the situation isn't that simple otherwise the people from Arduino LLC would have hired a board assembly house already. So somehow the rights of the hardware are with Arduino Srl (Italy) and people have to live with that. -
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Arduino Srl have plans, they have launched Zero Pro ahead of arduino.cc
Have they? Has anyone actually RECEIVED ONE? And it's drastically overpriced, compared to lots of other ARM development boards on the market (and not just the ones sold "direct from China") (All Genuine Arduino boards are pretty overpriced, but the Uno-class boards don't have very many "credible" competitors.)Quotethe are launched Yun Mini
Ditto? I dunno; I haven't followed the Yun side of things at all.Quotethey are developing the IDE for Zero Pro
They changed some constants in what was presumably the Arduino Zero Beta software. I haven't seen any signs that they're actively doing development (or that they have any SW development team, or that they are recruiting a development team.)QuoteThey also have Federico Musto, who is a hard nosed business guy.
Yeah; a big "business name" and a marketing pitch can reel in money for a long time, even without viable development strategy or profits.QuoteThey are not sitting on their hands. As for the name, a lot of people do not know or really care.
It's not clear WHAT they are doing, aside from shipping distributors "genuine arduino" boards whose VID doesn't match the VID of the boards they shipped a couple weeks/months ago.
For all I know, they could have a crack team of Italian coders on their side; major contributers I haven't heard of because I don't read the Italian section of the forums. Or they could have the Linino team and be "phht. We code linux; this Arduino core stuff will be a piece of cake!" Maybe they're actively recruiting Nick and Roger and Paul... But I haven't seen any signs of "useful" activity yet.QuoteThat would put Arduino LLC between a rock and a hard place.
"Technically" Arduino LLC is in good position, because they have the development team, and it's easier to replace a manufacturer than it is to put in place a new development team.
"Legally" they are in a tough place, because they can't replace Smart Projects as manufacturer without violating the same agreements that their case against Arduino SRL hinges upon. (assuming that my understanding of non-public agreements is approximately correct.)
(I came across a legal case recently where a company cut off a partner who they discovered was embezzling/misappropriating funds. And then was successfully sued by that partner because (as I read it) this "cutting off" was done incorrectly according to of the rules of the company. Even though the embezzling part was not in doubt.)
Any company with "skin in the game" would be very foolish to say anything more than "no comment." It's impolite to ask. :-)
(like being casual friends with both parties of a messy divorce. You don't get to go around asking the closer friends who screwed up worse...) (not that what we're doing here is much better :-( )