There is still a wide spread use of horse & carriage among the Amish....
LOL! but yeah, i'm pretty sure you missed the term "widespread use" hardly applies to them secluded types!
The Trabant had 'widespread' use. Not to bothered about the compiler but how the IDE performs ...
The Trabant had 'widespread' use. Not to bothered about the compiler but how the IDE performs ...
awwww! how sweet! I totally want one!!!! but yeah, think your missing the point. The architecture might be old but it's far from obsolete. There might be newer things capable of doing better but there is so much produced by that reliable old architecture that it's really worth learning.
You guys just can't stop squawking, can you.
why not, it's fun!
The Trabant had 'widespread' use. Not to bothered about the compiler but how the IDE performs ...
awwww! how sweet! I totally want one!!!! but yeah, think your missing the point. The architecture might be old but it's far from obsolete. There might be newer things capable of doing better but there is so much produced by that reliable old architecture that it's really worth learning.
Major
Why try to do things the hard way when there is an easy way? I really don't get why people would want to start or keep using the 8 bit PICs or 8051. Maybe some secluded types who like to play with vintage stuff... I would have given my left nut and then some for an ARM based microcontroller when I started out with microcontrollers (8051, Z80, 68HC11) over 20 years ago. The possibilities are infinite nowadays. So much cool technology to play with these days that it is almost a crime punishable by death to stick with the obsolete stuff O0
I'm starting to become a bit of an old fart and I really envy the possibilities younger people have nowadays to make really cool electronics in their attic or shed. I didn't had that when I started to tinker with electronics. I had to buy parts piece by piece from a local electronics store which didn't had a very large assortment and scrape information together from books from the library and look hard to score a datasheet book with information on interesting chips.
Like GCC there's no IAR compiler for PICs though.
They did support some PICs for a while.
These IAR page showed up using Google:
http://www.iar.com/Products/IAR-Embedded-Workbench/Microchip-PIC18/Product-packages/
IAR Embedded Workbench® for PIC18 is available in standard and limited editions.
http://www.iar.com/Products/IAR-Embedded-Workbench/Microchip-dsPICPIC24/Product-packages/
IAR Embedded Workbench® for dsPIC is available in standard and limited editions.
But this info isn't valid any more? IAR doesn't actually offer these PIC18 and dsPIC/PIC24 compilers anymore?
It's not mentioned in their list of supported manufactures/architectures in the list on the left.
I wonder why they would retire it again? Too many bugs or too few who bought it?
I think they keep it available for projects that need maintenance, but is not actively marketed.
I heard that the problem is there wasn't much interest in the product as Microchip did not support it.
I really don't get why people would want to start or keep using the 8 bit PICs or 8051. Maybe some secluded types who like to play with vintage stuff... I would have given my left nut and then some for an ARM based microcontroller when I started out with microcontrollers (8051, Z80, 68HC11) over 20 years ago. The possibilities are infinite nowadays. So much cool technology to play with these days that it is almost a crime punishable by death to stick with the obsolete stuff O0
I don't know of anyone who uses an actual i8051 or 80C51 or 87C51, but the modern variants (such as the Silicon Labs devices) are pretty great -- lots of flash for program store (no need for the external EPROM), lots of RAM, lots of peripherals including ADCs and DACs, and even USB.
They're certainly not the 87C51 which was the basis of my university senior design project.
Having said that, lots of ARM Cortex parts are cheaper.
I have some legacy products at work that use 8051 but nothing new. That's all NXP arms. However I feel like I don't actually understand the modern 8051 landscape very well. I know the core goes into a lot of very modern micros and it's still used a lot, but I don't really know who uses them and why they do, aside from the "no core royalty makes them cheap" argument. Again, what does that cost? I don't know because I'm not plugged into that at all.
Seems like most core arguments are mostly a question of familiarity and much less about what the actual differences are.
I don't really know who uses them and why they do, aside from the "no core royalty makes them cheap" argument.
Royalty is minimum: the arm royalties are in the pennies per chip.
Seems like most core arguments are mostly a question of familiarity and much less about what the actual differences are.
I think it is primarily a marketing and software thing: ARM is all the rage, not necessarily because it is that much faster, low consumption or more reliable, etc. It is just in, for some reasons so you observe lots of herd behaviors on that.
From a software perspective, 8051 has one of the largest installed base so lots of projects can be easily recompiled on newer / faster 8051 cores and you are ready to go.
I have some legacy products at work that use 8051 but nothing new. That's all NXP arms. However I feel like I don't actually understand the modern 8051 landscape very well. I know the core goes into a lot of very modern micros and it's still used a lot, but I don't really know who uses them and why they do, aside from the "no core royalty makes them cheap" argument. Again, what does that cost? I don't know because I'm not plugged into that at all.
Seems like most core arguments are mostly a question of familiarity and much less about what the actual differences are.
couple of examples out of many:
http://www.atmel.com/Images/doc4109s.pdfhttp://www.cypress.com/psoc3/?source=CY-ENG-HEADER
I have some legacy products at work that use 8051 but nothing new. That's all NXP arms. However I feel like I don't actually understand the modern 8051 landscape very well. I know the core goes into a lot of very modern micros and it's still used a lot, but I don't really know who uses them and why they do, aside from the "no core royalty makes them cheap" argument. Again, what does that cost? I don't know because I'm not plugged into that at all.
An 8051-variant vendor doesn't need to pay Intel a royalty for intellectual property. ARM is not a manufacturer; they hold the IP and license it to anyone willing to pony up for it. I'm not sure that such lack of royalty in itself makes the 8051 significantly less expensive than ARM, for example. In fact, just scan some price lists and you'll see that many well-outfitted ARMs are cheaper than some 8051s.
Seems like most core arguments are mostly a question of familiarity and much less about what the actual differences are.
That's often the case.
But look at it this way: if you've sprung for the Keil 8051 toolset and your applications are not strictly cost-sensitive (that is, you're not selling lots of product per month), why not continue to use the old familiar? It works, you have the tools and as such your development time is reduced.
In these cases, you'd consider an alternate device family if you need more horsepower or peripherals which your preferred family doesn't have.
If you're starting from tabula rasa, then I'd say look at ARMs and skip the 8051.
I really don't get why people would want to start or keep using the 8 bit PICs or 8051. Maybe some secluded types who like to play with vintage stuff... I would have given my left nut and then some for an ARM based microcontroller when I started out with microcontrollers (8051, Z80, 68HC11) over 20 years ago. The possibilities are infinite nowadays. So much cool technology to play with these days that it is almost a crime punishable by death to stick with the obsolete stuff O0
I don't know of anyone who uses an actual i8051 or 80C51 or 87C51, but the modern variants (such as the Silicon Labs devices) are pretty great -- lots of flash for program store (no need for the external EPROM), lots of RAM, lots of peripherals including ADCs and DACs, and even USB.
They're certainly not the 87C51 which was the basis of my university senior design project.
Having said that, lots of ARM Cortex parts are cheaper.
NXP, Infineon, et al have sold 8051 with lots of peripherals for several decades. No matter how much you beef up an 8051 an ARM always does a lot more per MHz than an 8051 especially if you need to move memory around or work with numbers which are larger than 255. Recently I got a re-design project where people tried to do some heavy signal processing with an 8 bit PIC... They choose it because they knew it and didn't look for a better fit
Sticking with what you know is OK but try to get to know something which doesn't run out of steam going up the first hill OR know your limits.
I really don't get why people would want to start or keep using the 8 bit PICs or 8051. Maybe some secluded types who like to play with vintage stuff... I would have given my left nut and then some for an ARM based microcontroller when I started out with microcontrollers (8051, Z80, 68HC11) over 20 years ago. The possibilities are infinite nowadays. So much cool technology to play with these days that it is almost a crime punishable by death to stick with the obsolete stuff O0
For a lot of projects this is true. But imaging if you need a very small micro-controller for say a automated air fresher. You don't care about speed or ease of coding, architecture efficiency, and if it's mains plug in then the power consumption is not a concern. You just care about cost.
I think small 8-bitters are always going to be cheaper for the silicon fab to produce, with less gates the yields are better and less testing time required. Additionally zero royalty's. Every cent counts.
I think small 8-bitters are always going to be cheaper for the silicon fab to produce, with less gates the yields are better and less testing time required.
On the other hand, more modern micros are probably manufactured using a more modern process and with a smaller feature size, offsetting the transistor count (though most area will be RAM and flash anyway).
royalty's
Grr.
Are you willing to design something like a ARM core, develop all the compiler crap associated with a new architecture, then support,maintain and update the design, all that for free?
Oh, corporations are so bad, charging for the work they do, how dare they
If the big, bad corporation wants to sell their ARM core, they may want to consider giving away a decent set of tools to use their fancy, new ARM core. Big, bad corporations make money when people but their stuff. People tend to buy stuff that has good support; free or reasonably priced.
If the big, bad corporation wants to sell their ARM core, they may want to consider giving away a decent set of tools to use their fancy, new ARM core. Big, bad corporations make money when people but their stuff. People tend to buy stuff that has good support; free or reasonably priced.
I would agree. That philosophy seems to have worked very well for Microchip. Microchip has always had free or a very cheap tool chain for their micros.
Please point me to Microchip's free C compiler for 8 bit PICs!
-:wtf: Please point me to Microchip's free C compiler for 8 bit PICs-
I fail to understand your use of profanity here. If you have a point, lay it our.
the use of profanity doesn't make you any smarter or more manly, or your point stronger.
Profanity is his substitute for an argument. The fact you get a completely functional compiler for zero dollars doesn't jive with his personal view of Microchip.
That guy is always bashing Microchip.
I don't mind Microchp / Atmel / anyone bashing. But one should at least have a point.
Profanity is his substitute for an argument. The fact you get a completely functional compiler for zero dollars doesn't jive with his personal view of Microchip.
A compiler without optimisation is not a compiler. It is crippleware because you can't use it for any serious project. Hence there is no free C compiler for 8 bit PIC. Hence Microchip's success doesn't come from providing free tools.
Does profanity = butthurt these days? (butthurt is a term we use in the military that equates to waaaahhhh or any other term that describes whining or general displeasure from having thin skin)
I use profanity as a substitute for swearing.
