PCB engraved, what do you think about ?

[TheDirty]

I'm also able to etch very quickly, but it took me a while of experimentation to get to that point.  Though I use the cheap Chinese PCB prototyping I still etch my own stuff for new chips or I just want to try something out.  It doesn't make sense waiting a month to get 10 boards when you only need one and it would be useful to have it right now.   I use toner transfer and there's no mess.  I guess if I got really careless with the ferric chloride there could be a problem.

I don't really have a point here, other than it can be done and it does have its down sides.  If I had the money, sure I would get a routing table.

[legacy]

what about the "tools" you use to engrave ? i mean what do you mont on your pcb-engraver in order to cut and drill ? and where do you buy it ?

[legacy]

i am reading about this, pretty news!

[PaulAm]

These old T-Tech machines can be bought very cheaply nowadays

How cheap?  Looks like one went on ebay for something under $2K US.  That still seems pricey to me.

[george graves]

It takes me 20 mins just to get the coffee on

Last time I etched it took longer than that - printing the film, getting the kit out, exposing, developing, heating, etching, cleaning, etc.

Yea, with toner transfer, it cuts down on a lot of that exposing and developing.

Print it, iron it, soak the paper, peal, and you're ready to etch. I use the hydrogen peroxide/HCl enchant....but I use hair salon peroxide(IIRC 20% peroxide), the reaction itself is exothermic, so no need to heat the chemicals. It's very quick.  I can etch 10 square inches in about a min or two.  I use copper fills on my boards where ever I can to reduce the amount of copper that needs to be etched.  It makes life easier.

Here's an example of how fast it can etch.  I think his solution is a bit too strong!!!! But you get the point.



For cleaning they get a quick bath of water and baking soda.  Then a rinse and scrub under the tap.  Finally, acetone to remove the toner, and a quick scrub with a 500 grit sand paper, or a scouring pad.

I also use 1/32" boards where ever I can so that I can easily cut them with some metal shears.

[edavid]

I have and use a Sable for PCB milling. In my case I use a Proxxon IB/E as the spindle (has the spindle bearings mounted in metal) and it's good enough to manage 0.5mm pitch flatpacks and the like.

Did you buy it from the same seller?

Did it work out of the box?

Did you try the Sable spindle, or start with the Proxxon?

[PlainName]

But you get the point

The point I got was tray, bottles, gloves = mess.

toner transfer

Never tried it, mostly because it's a total loss system. I tend to print to film and then keep the film so I can run another off without trying to make a good print again. [Sorry! Used to print... ]

Mind, it took me a lot of trial and error to find a happy combination of printer and film that would work perfectly every time. I think all of these things do, and once you've found what works for you it can be quite hard to realise it doesn't work for someone else, and they'll find some other method they'll swear by.

[george graves]

The point I got was tray, bottles, gloves = mess.

Naw.  I just use two small plastic tall containers.  No spills, no mess. Disposiable gloves.  It's not rocket science.

Never tried it, mostly because it's a total loss system.

"Total loss system"?  Uh, yes?  One sheet of photo paper.  Very wasteful. 

But to each their own!

[orion242]

Yea, with toner transfer, it cuts down on a lot of that exposing and developing.

Print it, iron it, soak the paper, peal, and you're ready to etch. I use the hydrogen peroxide/HCl enchant....but I use hair salon peroxide(IIRC 20% peroxide), the reaction itself is exothermic, so no need to heat the chemicals. It's very quick.  I can etch 10 square inches in about a min or two.  I use copper fills on my boards where ever I can to reduce the amount of copper that needs to be etched.  It makes life easier.

Here's an example of how fast it can etch.  I think his solution is a bit too strong!!!! But you get the point.

Never tried the toner method, always used transparencies and ferric chloride myself.  Never did my mix, even heated, react like that witches brew…   I think I would have added an apron and full blow eye protection working with that stuff (or ferric for that matter).

What do you do to dispose of that stuff?  Neutralize with baking soda and flush?

[orion242]

Is it precise enough for LQFP packages?

I reckon so. The photo is one I prepared earlier (and earlier enough that I'm not sure what the chip is - I think it's an AVR).

Nice!  I'm sold...

Now to convince the misses.

[AndersAnd]

Now to convince the misses.

While etching, just let her smell and inhale the acid fumes until she starts coughing, and say there's a way to avoid all this unhealthy acid.

[orion242]

Or just dump the last of my ferric in the "stainless" steel kitchen sink....

[PlainName]

Now to convince the misses.

It is easier to ask forgiveness than to seek permission 

[AndersAnd]

Now to convince the misses.

It is easier to ask forgiveness than to seek permission 

Just use it to engrave a necklace for her and you'll be forgiven.

[george graves]

What do you do to dispose of that stuff?  Neutralize with baking soda and flush?

I neutralize it with baking soda(it changes color when it's fully neutralized)

Then I let it sit, and the copper and salts will come out of solution and drop to the bottom.  I then pour off the liquid (salt water) and dispose of it.  I let the solid dry, and then put them into a container.  Over the 7 years of etching 100's of boards, I only have about 1/2 of a gallon of solids.  Eventually I'll drop it off at the dump when they have a hazardous material disposal day (along with a box of used AA/9V batteries)

[legacy]

hi guys
could you suggest me a product and a seller?

[PlainName]

could you suggest me a product

A nice Uni-T meter, and perhaps some silicon leads with banana plugs

and a seller?

Franky at iloveelectronics.

[legacy]

what do you think about the cirqoid machine ?

it could be bought in complete package which include
- Cirqoid machine
- Spindle add-on
- Dispensing add-on
- pick-and-place add-on
- Drilling/milling spacer pack

also available
- PCB Insulation milling V tool - 0.2-0.5
- PCB Insulation milling V tool - 0.1-0.15

and provided with PCB laminate of 100x75mm or 100x160mm (combo kit available) area which is a bit small but, good enough for me

[free_electron]

more than 2000Euro for a simple 160x100mm work area ?
25$ gets me 10 double side boards in china.. i can place 100 orders against this machine.

[Harvs]

two questions :

1) does it come with full licensed versions of all that software ? not pirated, not cracked but official and unlimited ?
i see way too many of these machines that come with pirated versions of that control software. i dont; want to buy a 700$ machine and then have to find out i need to fork over another 500$ in software to get it legit...

2) does it connect thru USB ?  no computer has a parallel port anymore. parallel ports are gone, adieu , sayonara, goodbye. if it does not work over a USB link : fail. any 3d printer out there can already do it. why not these machines ?

While I'm not in the pcb routing camp, to answer those questions specifically.

Mach3 which is the most popular CNC software for those building their own machines (and I don't just mean hobbiests.)  $175 for the full licence.  However, I recon it's worth every penny.  Where I work we have several machines, but are only used one at a time.  We asked them if we needed to buy a licence for each machine (which we were fully prepared to do) and the answer was no, only one licence.

As for USB.  These cheap machines are probably parallel port controlled.  But for $275 you can get a really great USB controller that takes all the pain out of kernel timing, generally allowing machines to run faster.  Or you can go the route of an FPGA PCI card for similar money to achieve a similar result.

[legacy]

more than 2000Euro for a simple 160x100mm work area ?

it is not a simple machine, it is also adds
- Spindle
- Dispensing
- pick-and-place
- Drilling/milling spacer
- Insulation milling


btw, could you suggest me a cheaper one ?

[tjb1]

more than 2000Euro for a simple 160x100mm work area ?

it is not a simple machine, it is also adds
- Spindle
- Dispensing
- pick-and-place
- Drilling/milling spacer
- Insulation milling


btw, could you suggest me a cheaper one ?

You can buy a Grizzly G0704 and convert it to CNC for less than that.  Possibly do the same with a Bridgeport if you find one cheap enough.

[granz]

more than 2000Euro for a simple 160x100mm work area ?

it is not a simple machine, it is also adds
- Spindle
- Dispensing
- pick-and-place
- Drilling/milling spacer
- Insulation milling


btw, could you suggest me a cheaper one ?

You can buy a Grizzly G0704 and convert it to CNC for less than that.  Possibly do the same with a Bridgeport if you find one cheap enough.

No way you could do anything like PCB milling with a Grizzly G0704!     The max spindle speed is like 2500 or something.  Smaller bits <==> higher speed.  Some people that have converted that type to CNC have added high-speed aux spindles for engraving etc.

For an open-hardware option, the Shapeoko 2 looks promising.  I'd take that over one of those Chinese machines, simply because of the much better community support.

[G0HZU]

These old T-Tech machines can be bought very cheaply nowadays

How cheap?  Looks like one went on ebay for something under $2K US.  That still seems pricey to me.

I paid about £850 for my T-Tech 7000S >10 years ago and it came with the Nilfisk extraction gear plus the full spares kit and plenty of tools. The original owner was HP and they only used it a few times.
It was cheap because there was no £££ dongle with the Isolation/control software that ran it (lost?)
That wasn't really a problem for me.

I bought the second one a couple of years later for £600 but it had some motor/bearing damage due to misuse and this was reflected in the price. But it also came with spares and a Nilfisk extraction system. It had a dongle with it but I don't need the dongle.

I've seen them on ebay for less than this in recent years but the risk is that you will get a sloppy or worn out one.

The other issue is the availability of the old Isopro software that runs it. I'm not sure if T-Tech will release the older versions of Isopro. I haven't bothered to download/upgrade my Isopro control SW for many years now.

[Harvs]

The other issue is the availability of the old Isopro software that runs it. I'm not sure if T-Tech will release the older versions of Isopro. I haven't bothered to download/upgrade my Isopro control SW for many years now.

That machine looks like it would be a piece of cake to switch over to Mach3, even if you have to replace all the electronics (stepper control) that's only ~$100 in total.  Probably take a lazy afternoon to get it wired up and running correctly.