PIC programming - where to start and which programmer to get

[WaveyDipole]

I am at a juncture where I need to create a device controlled over a serial port but optically isolated and powered from a radio keypad connector. I am very familiar with Arduino, but even at 50mA, the Micro draws more current than I would like the device to draw. The original device I am trying to emulate draws 16ma. The internals have some leeway, but I don't want to push them too much.

So one option suggested to me waz to use a PIC, because they have much lower power usage. So I did some reading and read this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/im-a-beginner-pic-programmer-whats-the-best-programmerdebugger-to-use/

So I meet the familiar with Arduino first requirement, so now which devices to play with. I do have a TL866II programer like the opin that thread and with lots of adapters for various types of chips. But it wasn't clear whether this would work with MPLAB software or not.

I also work on Linux, so read this thread as well:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/pic-programming-how-should-i-start/

Sadly it descended into a bit of a Windows vs Linux debate, which I am not interested in. MPLAB X IDE runs on Linux so discussion over. So the other suggestion was to buy a Pickit3 or Pickit4 Programmer. I did eventually find a Pickit4 but at 190GBP that's quite expensive, when the Pickit3 is around 30GBP. Amazon also has Waveshare Pickit5 at slighty less than the Pickt4 costing 160GBP.

So the first question - will my TL866II work with MPLAB X IDE, or do I need to by a Pickit?

Second question - does Pickit3 actually still work with MPLAB X IDE. The first thread suggests that it no longer does?

Third question - what to expect from PIC programming. I gather one can use a C language - does MPLAB X IDE support this? Does it have "libraries" or does one have to manually program UART control etc etc. The output is just pulsing a GPIO but do PIC chips have timers to do that? I get the impression one works more directly with the hardware rather than at application level?

I guess the only way is to try and see, but I don't want to spend 100GBP's doing that. From those two threads I have some of the information I need. I hope the answers to the above questions will fill in the rest.
 

[chilternview]

I use a PicKit 4 with a Macbook Pro, it just works for me. I've never tried using a TL866 to burn PICs even though I have one, it's just easier when you've got MPLab set up to program from there. If you watch and wait on eBay you should be able to get a PicKit at a reasonable price.

The advantage as I see it of using the PicKit is hardware debug. Set breakpoints in your PIC code and single step thru functions. Easy.

MPLab supports C, you need to download the appropriate compiler when you install MPLab. The free one is fine. The C runtime library is not perfect (where's vsprintf, Microchip???) but it mostly works. Assembler is not for me, did that 50 years ago, not going there again.

As for libraries, well for example most of the UART functionality is in hardware, it's just a case of handling interrupts e.g. when a character is read and setting the baud rate etc. Not difficult really although there are plenty of quirks in the PIC world that will catch you out first time around and the documentation doesn't really give good examples of what's important to know (like setting up all the ports before using them).

[tooki]

Sadly it descended into a bit of a Windows vs Linux debate, which I am not interested in. MPLAB X IDE runs on Linux so discussion over. So the other suggestion was to buy a Pickit3 or Pickit4 Programmer. I did eventually find a Pickit4 but at 190GBP that's quite expensive, when the Pickit3 is around 30GBP. Amazon also has Waveshare Pickit5 at slighty less than the Pickt4 costing 160GBP.

What the hell is up with those prices you found? On Digikey, a Pickit 5 costs £56+VAT. It's currently out of stock, but they're expecting stock tomorrow. That is well above their free shipping threshold.

Microchip itself has over 700 pieces in stock right now, at £55.47, presumably plus VAT. No idea what their shipping costs are. (To Switzerland, it's about $11, shipping from the UK. So I can't imagine UK shipping is expensive.)


Waveshare is simply taking a stock Pickit 5 and bundling it with adapters, cables, and a micro-SD card. Is that really worth an extra £100? I very much doubt it.

[voltsandjolts]

I am very familiar with Arduino, but even at 50mA, the Micro draws more current than I would like the device to draw.

I'm not familiar with arduino but I'm sure AVRs can be configured to take much less than 50mA!!

[tooki]

I am at a juncture where I need to create a device controlled over a serial port but optically isolated and powered from a radio keypad connector. I am very familiar with Arduino, but even at 50mA, the Micro draws more current than I would like the device to draw. The original device I am trying to emulate draws 16ma. The internals have some leeway, but I don't want to push them too much.

Have you actually done anything to minimize the current draw of the Micro? The ATmega32U4's maximum current draw, excluding whatever you power from GPIOs, is specified at 27mA. The blue power LED on the board draws 2.5mA by itself. You can reduce current dramatically by running it at 4 or 8MHz instead of 16MHz, and a bit further if you run it at 3.3V instead of 5V.

See also: https://docs.arduino.cc/learn/electronics/low-power

[WaveyDipole]

What the hell is up with those prices you found? On Digikey, a Pickit 5 costs £56+VAT. It's currently out of stock, but they're expecting stock tomorrow. That is well above their free shipping threshold.

Microchip itself has over 700 pieces in stock right now, at £55.47, presumably plus VAT. No idea what their shipping costs are. (To Switzerland, it's about $11, shipping from the UK. So I can't imagine UK shipping is expensive.)

Waveshare is simply taking a stock Pickit 5 and bundling it with adapters, cables, and a micro-SD card. Is that really worth an extra £100? I very much doubt it.

I don't know. Its just what I found with a random search. I have no problem paying the £55.47 but I suspect it will have VAT of 20% added plus a postage charge, probably at least 5GBP so I expect the overall cost will be somewhere around £70 or more. That's before one considers import taxes and tariffs on goods from the USA. Unfortunately it looks like I need to create an account and give away a significant amount of personal detail just to get the full cost details which is annoying. I don't generally deal with companies that cannot be upfront about things like tax and shipping costs. I have contacted them for this additional information and will sleep on it as they say. Its might still work out much cheaper than the 160GBP being asked by Waveshare on Amazon so thank you for pointing them out. The sad things is some people may end up paying the Waveshare price without realizing.

I did a bit more digging on the TL866II and it seems that it might not be compatible with MPLAN X IDE. It seems Microchip only support their own devices, so if I go with Microchip, then I will need to buy the Pickit.

I don't know anything about any other brands of PIC chips so if anyone could fill me in it would be appreciated. Are there ny competitors that are worth considering?

Have you actually done anything to minimize the current draw of the Micro? The ATmega32U4's maximum current draw, excluding whatever you power from GPIOs, is specified at 27mA. The blue power LED on the board draws 2.5mA by itself. You can reduce current dramatically by running it at 4 or 8MHz instead of 16MHz, and a bit further if you run it at 3.3V instead of 5V.

See also: https://docs.arduino.cc/learn/electronics/low-power

I must admit that I haven't and am only looking at ball park figures. Yes LEDs could certainly be removed. I am also only needing to drive one GPIO pin. That's all it needs. Haven't tried driving at lower frequencies yet but the project does deal with sub-millisecond time intervals. So long as that is still possible with reasonable accuracy then I see no problem reducing the clock speed and adjusting the code execution timing.

BTW, is there much difference between the Pickit 3 and the 3.5? Is the 3.5 actually genuine?

[westfw]

I am very familiar with Arduino, but even at 50mA, the Micro draws more current than I would like

An Arduino draws 50mA because nothing on the board makes any effort toward being low-power.  It's got a power-hungry regulator, a power-hungry op-amp, a power-hungry USB/Serial converter, and a bunch of power-hungry LEDs.  ("power-hungry" might be a bit of an exaggeration, but they're certainly NOT "optimized for low power.") The ATmega328p itself (which can still be programmed with Arduino) should consume less than 10mA at 16MHz and 5V (and less than that at lower speeds/voltages.  Even before you make any attempts to lower "average" power consumption with the low-power modes.)

The AVRs and PICs have quite similar "real" power consumption, and IMNSHO switching from an architecture that you're "very familiar" with chasing lower power would be a mistake.

Note that many of the "super low power" quotes in datasheets refer to optimal use of the "sleep" modes, which affect average rather than instantaneous consumption, and might not be applicable to your usage.

TI's MSP430 series has a reputation of being very low power, and are still programmable in an Arduino environment ("Energia")  (But again, some of that is superior sleep modes.)

[Adrian_Taylor333]

Best option would be a Pickit5.
It's about to have much longer support lifetime in it.
Other than obsolescence and Bluetooth support, there is not that much difference between Pickit4 and Pickit5.
Well, maybe also virtual serial ports to the target, not sure about that one.


It supports PIC ( 8-bitters, dsPIC and MIPS-based 32-bit models) ,AVR and ARM, both in low-voltage and HV programming modes.

Much cheaper option is "MPLAB Snap", but check the device support for actual  devices that interest you.
https://www.microchip.com/en-us/development-tool/PG164100

[shabaz]

I don't know what your use-case is, but if your aim is to only activate your circuitry when the serial port is connected, and if that serial port happens to be a USB-UART, then even if you're optically isolating somewhere, you could theoretically use power from the USB port, so that you might not need to steal any power from the radio keypad port.

The way to do that would be to use an isolated DC-DC converter module, price can be sub-$10. Which is obviously more expensive than a low-power microcontroller, so it's not a solution for a commercial product, but does mean you can continue to use whatever microcontroller you're already comfortable with (and the fact that there's a ton of resources on Arduino can be very helpful for newcomers, versus trying a significantly different IDE).

A Pi Pico can work directly with the Arduino IDE too, so again it's almost-identical to working with the Uno, and draws quite a bit less current (but still more than the 16 mA you mention). A Pi Pico will use about 28 mA on average, when running typical code (at least, that's what I've seen with a multimeter; not investigated further). So just moving to a Pi Pico alone would save a fair amount of power compared to the 50 mA you mention.

MSP430 that @westfw mentions is a great idea since the Energia environment will look very familiar if you're coming from Arduino IDE.

[brucehoult]

I am at a juncture where I need to create a device controlled over a serial port but optically isolated and powered from a radio keypad connector. I am very familiar with Arduino, but even at 50mA, the Micro draws more current than I would like the device to draw. The original device I am trying to emulate draws 16ma. The internals have some leeway, but I don't want to push them too much.

So one option suggested to me waz to use a PIC, because they have much lower power usage. So I did some reading and read this thread:

Just say NO. If you don't have a pre-existing reason to use PIC then don't start now. Ugh.

What level of PERFORMANCE do you need?

An ATTiny85 chip needs no external components -- I've used them without even a board, just solder on GND and Vcc and wires on whatever GPIO pins you want. By default it just starts up and runs at 1 MHz, using 0.3mA with a 2V+ power supply. Or you can run it at 4 MHz on a (min) 3V supply at 1.5mA, or 8 MHz on a 5V supply using 5mA.

Those numbers are all way below the 16mA you want to beat.  You don't even need any sleep mode tricks.

You can program it using the normal Arduino IDE and libraries, using an Uno (or Mega or whatever) as the physical programmer, using the supplied ArduinoISP sketch.

https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Program-a-ATtiny-With-Arduino/

https://mou.sr/45QeVF6

Forget about PIC.

[brucehoult]

The CH32V003 is also a good modern option. It costs $0.10 in an 8 pin package or $0.20 in a 20 pin package (18 GPIOs). It's a 32 bit CPU and uses 8mA at 48MHz with all peripherals enabled, or 0.4mA at 750kHz. Standby mode (clock stopped but GPIO changes wake it up) uses 11µA. You can use it with Arduino IDE and libraries, or bare metal. You can buy complete premade boards for around $1.50.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005221751705.html

I just plugged one of mine into a USB power measuring device and it showed 0.01A. Unfortunately that's the limit of its resolution.

[westfw]

Much cheaper option is "MPLAB Snap", but check the device support for actual  devices that interest you.
https://www.microchip.com/en-us/development-tool/PG164100

SNAP is a bit deprecated.  The most recent low-end ($30) programmer is the "Microchip PICKit Basic" https://www.microchip.com/en-us/development-tool/pg164110

OTOH, it looks like the remaining SNAPs are being sold for only $11 !

The PICKit BASIC seems to be re-packaged SNAP, perhaps with some bug fixes, and the $30 kit includes some cables, adapters, and pretty case, whereas the SNAP was just a bare PCB...  Both will program and debug pretty much all of Microchip's Microcontrollers, including a range of PICs, AVRs, and ARM...  (Hmm.  Neither does "high voltage programming", though.)

Comparison page: https://www.microchip.com/en-us/tools-resources/debug/programmers-debuggers

[mariush]

The SNAP is $11 : https://www.digikey.com/short/7wfv04w9

At that price...  just get one.

The Basic is $30 : https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/microchip-technology/PG164110/25965142

The supported devices for each programmer is here : https://packs.download.microchip.com/DeviceDoc/Device_Support.pdf

[Adrian_Taylor333]

@mariush:

SOmeone asked about the functional difference between Snap and basic on Microchips forums.

No one could find a meaningful difference outside Basic version having colorful plastic enclosure.

[westfw]

No one could find a meaningful difference

Does BASIC have a hardware fix for UPDI devices ( https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/aemDocuments/documents/OTH/ProductDocuments/MISC/ETN36_MPLAB+Snap+AVR+Interface+Modification.pdf )

[voltsandjolts]

The AVRs and PICs have quite similar "real" power consumption, and IMNSHO switching from an architecture that you're "very familiar" with chasing lower power would be a mistake.

^ This.

[mariush]

There's some PIC16LF microcontrollers that work down to 1.8v, so that may be a benefit.

As for the UPDI fix, it looks like one could easily take off the resistor, solder a couple thin wires to the pads and a small 2 pin jumper or a slide switch you could place near the 8 pin header (jumper installs means the resistor will be placed in circuit, from that line to ground)

[WaveyDipole]

Thank you. Some good points being made here. Some quick bullet point observations:

• I also came to the conclusion that if I got a Pickit, then I would probably choose the Pickit 5 for support longevity
• There is no pre-existing reason to use a PIC, it just that it was suggested on account of lower power consumption. I already have a working prototype that uses an Arduino Micro.
• Level of performance required is not very high at all. It just needs to send pulses with sub-millisecond intervals.
• Activation on serial connect is not necessary, but might be useful to consider.
• Haven't considered an ATtiny85 as I have never used them. Thank you for the suggestion. Sounds like it could suffice but I would need to add a UART. I expect that the TL866II or one of those FTDI boards could be used to program it?
• Not come across the CH32V003 before. Will look into that option.
• Objective is PC control of a receiver, so the project could be powered from the PC USB port. The current prototype does exactly that.
• I considered wireless options, e.g. ESP, but the power draw would be excessiveand would probably require a separate external power source.
• "The AVRs and PICs have quite similar "real" power consumption" - interesting to note. I was given to understand that PICs draw much less, but there is a large variety of PIC chips to choose from as there is for Arduino programmable MCUs. Already on here I have been given examples of Arduino alternatives that can do better than the Micro board.
• "Note that many of the "super low power" quotes in datasheets refer to optimal use of the "sleep" modes" - exactly and to drive GPIOs you have to wake up.

I spoke with Microchip via chat this morning and am very disappointed. I guess its because they are a manufacturer and ship in volume, but they wouldn't provide any information unless I created an account with them and placed a firm order. They wouldn't even tell me whether the order would ship from the UK or the US. That would make a BIG difference. However, I did manage to get a page of US shipping information.

https://www.microchipdirect.com/shipping-info

Looks like it would cost GBP28 (I am assuming that the package will weigh more then 500g) to ship from the states. When it arrives in the UK, I may or may not get hit with further import fees - depends what mood the customs official is in and which way the wind is blowing. If its shipped from the UK it might cost a lot less to ship, but will still carry 20% VAT.

I would seriously consider a competitor if I knew whether there were any and who they might be?
The PIC and PICkit seems to be the most popular offering though?

The AVRs and PICs have quite similar "real" power consumption, and IMNSHO switching from an architecture that you're "very familiar" with chasing lower power would be a mistake.

That's a good point. I think, taking into account this and all the other comments, if I were to purchase the Pickit5, it would be because I want to learn PIC programming long-term rather than being about just this one-off project. In any case, from my experience with Microchip so far, it seems that I might as well wait until the Pickit5 is available from other outlets like Farnell CPC, Rapid, Mouser, DigiKey etc that are better able to cater to the ordinary consumer and are usually upfront about additional costs.

I would consider a PICkit3 (or PICkit3.5 if these are geniune - note it says "Kit 3.5" not "PICkit 3.5") to dip toes in water so to speak if:

a) I could tell what is genuine and what isn't. Looks like the majority on Amazon and eBay are probably cloned fakes?
b) I could be sure it (genuine article or clone - in the unfortunate event that I ended up with one) would work with the current MPLAB X IDE.

Since both seem to be in doubt, it seems the better choice again would be to wait for the PICkit5 to become available through a reputable outlet.

[brucehoult]

• Haven't considered an ATtiny85 as I have never used them. Thank you for the suggestion. Sounds like it could suffice but I would need to add a UART. I expect that the TL866II or one of those FTDI boards could be used to program it?

As I mentioned before (and gave a link to instructions) you can use the standard ArduinoISP sketch, supplied with the IDE, to program an ATTiny85 using another Arduino (it doesn't matter whether it's an AVR one or not). You don't need any special programmer unless you brick it really badly.

As for UART, see:

https://hackaday.com/2019/03/13/attiny-gets-a-tiny-software-uart/

Read the comments too.

The main issue is whether 6 GPIOs are enough for you. The ATTiny85 does come in a 20 pin package too, but there are a lot of NC pins.

The ATTiny85 was my go-to small cheap MCU from around 2018 until I started using the CH32V003 (10x cheaper, much faster, somewhere between an ATMega168 and ATMega328 in RAM/flash, comes in 8, 16, 20 pin packages with up to 18 GPIOs) instead in 2023.

[chilternview]

I spoke with Microchip via chat this morning and am very disappointed. I guess its because they are a manufacturer and ship in volume, but they wouldn't provide any information unless I created an account with them and placed a firm order. They wouldn't even tell me whether the order would ship from the UK or the US. That would make a BIG difference. However, I did manage to get a page of US shipping information.

https://www.microchipdirect.com/shipping-info

Looks like it would cost GBP28 (I am assuming that the package will weigh more then 500g) to ship from the states. When it arrives in the UK, I may or may not get hit with further import fees - depends what mood the customs official is in and which way the wind is blowing. If its shipped from the UK it might cost a lot less to ship, but will still carry 20% VAT.

You really want to buy from DigiKey or Mouser, don't bother talking to Microchip they will not be interested. The US distributors like Digikey have free shipping over £33 or thereabouts and make it just as easy as ordering from RS in the UK (and usually quite a bit cheaper); delivery is typically 2-3 days. So for a picKit5 from Digikey you are looking at about £67 including VAT (which they charge, so you don't need to worry about any import charges this end).

[WaveyDipole]

• Haven't considered an ATtiny85 as I have never used them. Thank you for the suggestion. Sounds like it could suffice but I would need to add a UART. I expect that the TL866II or one of those FTDI boards could be used to program it?

As I mentioned before (and gave a link to instructions) you can use the standard ArduinoISP sketch, supplied with the IDE, to program an ATTiny85 using another Arduino (it doesn't matter whether it's an AVR one or not). You don't need any special programmer unless you brick it really badly.

Fair enough and thank you. I have spare Arduinos to configure one as an ISP programmer as well as those FTDI boards. Sounds like either will do.

As for UART, see:

https://hackaday.com/2019/03/13/attiny-gets-a-tiny-software-uart/

Read the comments too.

Interesting read, especially the comments. I see that there is a bit of a low level vs Arduino programming debate going on there as well... I am curious enough to buy a handful (ATTiny85 or CH32V003) to dig in and start learning though.

The main issue is whether 6 GPIOs are enough for you. The ATTiny85 does come in a 20 pin package too, but there are a lot of NC pins.

The ATTiny85 was my go-to small cheap MCU from around 2018 until I started using the CH32V003 (10x cheaper, much faster, somewhere between an ATMega168 and ATMega328 in RAM/flash, comes in 8, 16, 20 pin packages with up to 18 GPIOs) instead in 2023.

One or two will suffice so the smaller packages will be fine.

[mariush]

You really want to buy from DigiKey or Mouser, don't bother talking to Microchip they will not be interested. The US distributors like Digikey have free shipping over £33 or thereabouts and make it just as easy as ordering from RS in the UK (and usually quite a bit cheaper); delivery is typically 2-3 days. So for a picKit5 from Digikey you are looking at about £67 including VAT (which they charge, so you don't need to worry about any import charges this end).

TME.eu may be an option if only for the cheaper shipping - they ship from Poland, probably still gonna have to deal with customs but otherwise...

They say they will have Microchip SNAP in stock from the 1st of October (week 36/2025) for 9 GBP : https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/mplab-snap/programmers/microchip-technology/pg164100/

And pickit5 is supposedly gonna be available in stock next week at 59 GBP plus shipping : https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/pickit-5-icd/programmers/microchip-technology/pg164150/

[David Hess]

I learned and used PIC in the past, but suggest AVR will be better if you are starting from scratch.  Power requirements are comparable, but AVR has much better C support, and maybe lower cost development.

[WaveyDipole]

TME.eu may be an option if only for the cheaper shipping - they ship from Poland, probably still gonna have to deal with customs but otherwise...

They say they will have Microchip SNAP in stock from the 1st of October (week 36/2025) for 9 GBP : https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/mplab-snap/programmers/microchip-technology/pg164100/

And pickit5 is supposedly gonna be available in stock next week at 59 GBP plus shipping : https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/pickit-5-icd/programmers/microchip-technology/pg164150/

I have purchased from TME some time in the past and had good service. Didn't think about them actually, but thank you for the reminder. Its a possible option.

I learned and used PIC in the past, but suggest AVR will be better if you are starting from scratch.  Power requirements are comparable, but AVR has much better C support, and maybe lower cost development.

David, thank you. I have been using programming Arduinos for quite some time now so am not quite 'starting from scratch'. I have done some writing to registers, working with expander chips and using interrupts so have some familiarity with writing directly to hardware and emulating hardware protocols. I think PICs might be the next step in terms of learning and development, although I have now separated that goal from this specific project.
 
I did notice the mention of SNAP earlier and these can be had for quite a low price. I have seen a video showing one connected with DuPont wires to a small breadboard for programming so this might be a cheap way to get started and acquainted with the technology and software before deciding to spend much more on tooling. I think someone noted that it may support a smaller range of chips and that does indeed seem to be the case - a much smaller range. For 10GPB (or thereabouts) plus postage it seem quite tempting.

[David Hess]

I learned and used PIC in the past, but suggest AVR will be better if you are starting from scratch.  Power requirements are comparable, but AVR has much better C support, and maybe lower cost development.

David, thank you. I have been using programming Arduinos for quite some time now so am not quite 'starting from scratch'. I have done some writing to registers, working with expander chips and using interrupts so have some familiarity with writing directly to hardware and emulating hardware protocols. I think PICs might be the next step in terms of learning and development, although I have now separated that goal from this specific project.
 
I did notice the mention of SNAP earlier and these can be had for quite a low price. I have seen a video showing one connected with DuPont wires to a small breadboard for programming so this might be a cheap way to get started and acquainted with the technology and software before deciding to spend much more on tooling. I think someone noted that it may support a smaller range of chips and that does indeed seem to be the case - a much smaller range. For 10GPB (or thereabouts) plus postage it seem quite tempting.

If you are already familiar with Arduinos, then AVR is a  much better choice than PIC.  PIC is not going to teach you anything that AVR cannot, except dealing with archaic architectures.

The only reason I might use PIC now is for a peripheral not available in AVR, and even then I would consider implementing the required peripheral externally.