Forum Moderation

[tggzzz]

IMNSHO based on Musk's recent actions, it is impossible to simultaneously have a thread about him and to ignore his political actions.

That's just a restraint issues on your part. Either contribute and leave out the politics, or add the thread to your ignore list.

Too late: I already did that

Looks like you are continuing to have to micro-moderate that thread.

FYI, bd139 complains about "endless tolerated troll threads and sick and disgusting behaviour by a lot of your forum members"
Yet did he report them? No, no he didn't.

It is a judgement call whether to report someone and whether to ban them; personally I dislike doing so for many practical and philosophical reasons.
BD139 had seen the consequences of reporting members and subsequent moderation in the TEA thread, and he stated that influenced his thinking. In particular he drew attention to what he regarded as inconsistencies.

Then don't complain when I have no idea what was happening.

I did not complain, I noted. In fact I noted the opposite, and supported you! On multiple occasions I have posted that IMHO you shouldn't worry too much because schisms will always occur.

I also note that some people think you did have ideas of what was happening in the TEA thread; there's a long post dated "2022-08-29, 19:49:33" to that effect. I'm not posting a direct link because IMHO there's zero value in raking over dead embers, and I actually support your contentions.

You define the zeitgeist of this neighbourhood.
As with physical neighbourhoods, the zeitgeist can mutate over time. Sometimes people feel the zeitgeist has mutated unpleasantly, draw attention to the change, and try to reverse the change. If they fail, their only option is to leave.

I'm still waiting for someone to post a link to this mythical perfect forum that everyone loves and not a single person has any problem with, and only sunshine and rainbows flows out of it.
Please, post it.

Strawman.

I have repeatedly said that such perfection can never be achieved, for multiple reasons that cannot be avoided.

The issues arise around definitions and actions that individuals can and cannot take.

I used to be the top poster on a canyoning forum, it was about nothing else but canyoning, very specific, very benign almost boring stuff. It eventually split into three different forum groups as people were banned or didn't like the moderation, attitudes, or even arguments over whether or not new canyon info should be published.

Doesn't surprise me.

The phenomenon occurs sufficiently regularly in many contexts that there is a word for it: schism. They are unavoidable.

[tunk]

A question about private messages:
There's nothing about it in the rules; but should
they really be kept private, or can they be published?
The reason for asking is that private messages have
been published in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/exposed-how-a-hobbyist-turned-an-entire-community-into-free-beta-testers/msg6115601/

Should the rules be updated?

[Ian.M]

Putting *anything* in the rules about PM privacy is a bad idea.   Dave and the mod team have enough work without net nannying users who's expectations differ.  At the moment, if 'electronics hobbyist' (sic) and eTobey disagree, there is no need for the mods to get drawn in.   IMHO, unless you ask for confidentiality IN ADVANCE, and get the recipient's agreement, expecting confidentiality is at best impolite (you are burdening the recipient), sending anything confidential by PM is *stupid* (that's what encrypted email is for), and apparently not knowing (or caring about) the difference between email and PM is also stupid.   Although Dave and our moderators don't have access to user PMs and Gnif doesn't snoop, he *could* if he was evil.

I've disclosed PMs myself (with any PII other than the user nym redacted) and will continue to do so when *I* believe it is in the interests of myself and the forum community to do so, e.g. to make sure that suspected homework problems remain publicly visible to the user's college's anti-plagiarism software.   I scarcely ever offer free private support.   

IMHO creating a user that claims to be an amateur and then using it exclusively for work purposes, namely back-channel product support, comes close to breaching the spirit of rules  9 & 10 even though its technically not prohibited.  See the note in rule 11 encouraging employees to explicitly disclose their affiliation in their .sig.  If your employer doesn't want you to disclose your affiliation, but requires you to use an account here for work, that's pretty shady!

However eTobey *should* blur the prerelease firmware URL as leaving it comes close to breaching rule 6.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/forum-rules-please-read/

--
I'm just an ordinary EEVblog forum user, not a moderator here, nor do I play one on TV!

[Monkeh]

I'm the first to admit I'm not innocent here, I rise to this bullshit more than I should, but please: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/chatgpt-suicide-coach-lawsuit/msg6115221/#msg6115221

Can some moderation be applied to people who spend an inordinate amount of their time on the forum posting clearly political bullshit and then engaging directly in personal attacks as a result?

[tszaboo]

I'm the first to admit I'm not innocent here, I rise to this bullshit more than I should, but please: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/chatgpt-suicide-coach-lawsuit/msg6115221/#msg6115221

Can some moderation be applied to people who spend an inordinate amount of their time on the forum posting clearly political bullshit and then engaging directly in personal attacks as a result?

Straight out of the "let's get people cancelled playbook".

[Monkeh]

I'm the first to admit I'm not innocent here, I rise to this bullshit more than I should, but please: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/chatgpt-suicide-coach-lawsuit/msg6115221/#msg6115221

Can some moderation be applied to people who spend an inordinate amount of their time on the forum posting clearly political bullshit and then engaging directly in personal attacks as a result?

Straight out of the "let's get people cancelled playbook".

Yes, no rules can be applied to you or it's the woke agenda. How dare someone have a different position to you, they're woke - cancel them.

[tszaboo]

I'm the first to admit I'm not innocent here, I rise to this bullshit more than I should, but please: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/chatgpt-suicide-coach-lawsuit/msg6115221/#msg6115221

Can some moderation be applied to people who spend an inordinate amount of their time on the forum posting clearly political bullshit and then engaging directly in personal attacks as a result?

Straight out of the "let's get people cancelled playbook".

Yes, no rules can be applied to you or it's the woke agenda. How dare someone have a different position to you, they're woke - cancel them.

You are free to post write and say whatever you want, I just don't care anymore.
You running here calling for the teacher is kindergarden level.

[Monkeh]

You are free to post write and say whatever you want, I just don't care anymore.

Your actions belie your words.

I did this in public for a reason. It's partly an experiment, partly transparency, partly a demonstration of who you are when you come running to continue your attacks.

[tszaboo]

You are free to post write and say whatever you want, I just don't care anymore.

Your actions belie your words.

I did this in public for a reason. It's partly an experiment, partly transparency, partly a demonstration of who you are when you come running to continue your attacks.

Yeah, that's called trolling.
As I said, I'm done talking to you. Bye.

[Monkeh]

You are free to post write and say whatever you want, I just don't care anymore.

Your actions belie your words.

I did this in public for a reason. It's partly an experiment, partly transparency, partly a demonstration of who you are when you come running to continue your attacks.

Yeah, that's called trolling.

No, it's not. If I did it with the sole intent of getting a rise out of you, perhaps, but in this case it's merely a side effect I'm aware of which happens to demonstrate the problem.

[EEVblog]

I also note that some people think you did have ideas of what was happening in the TEA thread; there's a long post dated "2022-08-29, 19:49:33" to that effect. I'm not posting a direct link because IMHO there's zero value in raking over dead embers, and I actually support your contentions.

Those people are 100% wrong.
I literally woke up one morning and half a dozen high profile people had left, I had no clue why.

The phenomenon occurs sufficiently regularly in many contexts that there is a word for it: schism. They are unavoidable.

So why are people taking me to task for trying to find a sensible practical balance?

[EEVblog]

I'm the first to admit I'm not innocent here, I rise to this bullshit more than I should, but please: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/chatgpt-suicide-coach-lawsuit/msg6115221/#msg6115221
Can some moderation be applied to people who spend an inordinate amount of their time on the forum posting clearly political bullshit and then engaging directly in personal attacks as a result?

I don't recall seeing a single report of a post from that thread. I've never seen that thread myself before.
Unless a moderator happens to take a personal interest in a thread, or happens to see something while browsing, moderation is almost entirely based on user reports.
There are like 700 posts a day on this forum, moderators are only going to see a small fraction of them by browsing.

[ebastler]

What is going on in this place recently?! It looks like some sort of epidemic where long-standing members with thousands of posts go off the rails. Forum poisoning? 

(Erm, yes, I realize that I have quite a few posts too. Maybe I better get some fresh air and some sleep?)

[EEVblog]

What is going on in this place recently?! It looks like some sort of epidemic where long-standing members with thousands of posts go off the rails. Forum poisoning? 

Well, a few people seem to be having a wobbly because I started an Elon Musk thread to try and keep other thread clean of this obvious tangent magnet, and then have complained when I won't let them talk politics in it 

[tggzzz]

What is going on in this place recently?! It looks like some sort of epidemic where long-standing members with thousands of posts go off the rails. Forum poisoning? 

Well, a few people seem to be having a wobbly because I started an Elon Musk thread to try and keep other thread clean of this obvious tangent magnet, and then have complained when I won't let them talk politics in it 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/elon-musk/msg6114429/#msg6114429

Or Eric Gill but only talk about his eponymous typeface.

Or Jimmy Saville but only talk about his TV shows. (I know two people who knew him).

Some topics cannot be expected to be discussed in isolation.

[Monkeh]

I'm the first to admit I'm not innocent here, I rise to this bullshit more than I should, but please: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/chatgpt-suicide-coach-lawsuit/msg6115221/#msg6115221
Can some moderation be applied to people who spend an inordinate amount of their time on the forum posting clearly political bullshit and then engaging directly in personal attacks as a result?

I don't recall seeing a single report of a post from that thread. I've never seen that thread myself before.
Unless a moderator happens to take a personal interest in a thread, or happens to see something while browsing, moderation is almost entirely based on user reports.
There are like 700 posts a day on this forum, moderators are only going to see a small fraction of them by browsing.

Well, there's your report. It's not as if it's an old thread. I don't like using the direct report function for things like that, I'm not that guy, despite claims from those who are deeply upset I don't share their beliefs.

It was an example of a behavioural trend, by the way. It's been going on quite a while with this member, but he's hardly alone.

[magic]

Well, there's your report. It's not as if it's an old thread. I don't like using the direct report function for things like that

Yeah, better make a dozen posts about it spread across two threads.

[Monkeh]

Well, there's your report. It's not as if it's an old thread. I don't like using the direct report function for things like that

Yeah, better make a dozen posts about it spread across two threads.

I've admitted I shouldn't rise to it. I struggle with leaving stuff like that alone and I'll freely admit it. That doesn't change the problem.

[EEVblog]

What is going on in this place recently?! It looks like some sort of epidemic where long-standing members with thousands of posts go off the rails. Forum poisoning? 

Well, a few people seem to be having a wobbly because I started an Elon Musk thread to try and keep other thread clean of this obvious tangent magnet, and then have complained when I won't let them talk politics in it 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/elon-musk/msg6114429/#msg6114429
Or Eric Gill but only talk about his eponymous typeface.
Or Jimmy Saville but only talk about his TV shows. (I know two people who knew him).
Some topics cannot be expected to be discussed in isolation.

I'm confused. You said "Looks like you are continuing to have to micro-moderate that thread." and now you point me to a post to micro-moderate?
Do you want micro-moderation or no moderation at all? 

[PlainName]

What is going on in this place recently?! It looks like some sort of epidemic where long-standing members with thousands of posts go off the rails. Forum poisoning? 

Well, a few people seem to be having a wobbly because I started an Elon Musk thread to try and keep other thread clean of this obvious tangent magnet, and then have complained when I won't let them talk politics in it 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/elon-musk/msg6114429/#msg6114429
Or Eric Gill but only talk about his eponymous typeface.
Or Jimmy Saville but only talk about his TV shows. (I know two people who knew him).
Some topics cannot be expected to be discussed in isolation.

I'm confused. You said "Looks like you are continuing to have to micro-moderate that thread." and now you point me to a post to micro-moderate?
Do you want micro-moderation or no moderation at all? 

I think his point was that what you set out to do is like those examples: discussing those people without mentioning the bad stuff they'd done. So trying to discuss Musk without his political effects - it's an almost impossible ask.

(I hasten to note that I am reflecting what I think is tggzzz's point; I don't want to express an opinion either way so don't attack the messenger, please )

[tggzzz]

What is going on in this place recently?! It looks like some sort of epidemic where long-standing members with thousands of posts go off the rails. Forum poisoning? 

Well, a few people seem to be having a wobbly because I started an Elon Musk thread to try and keep other thread clean of this obvious tangent magnet, and then have complained when I won't let them talk politics in it 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/elon-musk/msg6114429/#msg6114429
Or Eric Gill but only talk about his eponymous typeface.
Or Jimmy Saville but only talk about his TV shows. (I know two people who knew him).
Some topics cannot be expected to be discussed in isolation.

I'm confused. You said "Looks like you are continuing to have to micro-moderate that thread." and now you point me to a post to micro-moderate?
Do you want micro-moderation or no moderation at all? 

I think his point was that what you set out to do is like those examples: discussing those people without mentioning the bad stuff they'd done. So trying to discuss Musk without his political effects - it's an almost impossible ask.

(I hasten to note that I am reflecting what I think is tggzzz's point; I don't want to express an opinion either way so don't attack the messenger, please )

Correct interpretation.

Maybe I should have spelled out the "other characteistics" of Gill and Saville, but a sense of decency prevailed.

[EEVblog]

I think his point was that what you set out to do is like those examples: discussing those people without mentioning the bad stuff they'd done. So trying to discuss Musk without his political effects - it's an almost impossible ask.

In that case there are only three options here:
1) Ban all talk of Elon Musk and anything he is involved with entirely from this forum, because it's "impossible" to do so without involving politics.
2) Make the Elon Musk thread a special exclusion zone being the only place on the forum where politics is allowed.
3) Remove the politics rule entirely from the forum.

Which one do you want?

[EEVblog]

Maybe I should have spelled out the "other characteistics" of Gill and Saville, but a sense of decency prevailed.

You linked to a specific post, do you want me to "micro-moderate" that post or not?

[tggzzz]

I think his point was that what you set out to do is like those examples: discussing those people without mentioning the bad stuff they'd done. So trying to discuss Musk without his political effects - it's an almost impossible ask.

In that case there are only three options here:
1) Ban all talk of Elon Musk and anything he is involved with entirely from this forum, because it's "impossible" to do so without involving politics.
2) Make the Elon Musk thread a special exclusion zone being the only place on the forum where politics is allowed.
3) Remove the politics rule entirely from the forum.

Which one do you want?

How.about another option
 4) don't start a guaranteed contentious topic and only allow some aspects of the topic to be discussed

[EEVblog]

4) don't start a guaranteed contentious topic and only allow some aspects of the topic to be discussed

So you'd rather all the Elon Musk stuff to infest dozens of other threads instead?