Forum Moderation

[tggzzz]

Maybe I should have spelled out the "other characteistics" of Gill and Saville, but a sense of decency prevailed.

You linked to a specific post, do you want me to "micro-moderate" that post or not?

You made a point.

The other post contained a pre-existing counter-point to your point.

I added two other similar counter-points.

Clearly I was too terse.

[tggzzz]

4) don't start a guaranteed contentious topic and only allow some aspects of the topic to be discussed

So you'd rather all the Elon Musk stuff to infest dozens of other threads instead?

ISTR believing he original intention was for all the Musk stuff to gravitate to that thread, which might or might not have worked. But then the extra "no politics" condition was added, which guaranteed it would fail.

[Martin72]

What is going on in this place recently?! It looks like some sort of epidemic where long-standing members with thousands of posts go off the rails. Forum poisoning? 

Well, a few people seem to be having a wobbly because I started an Elon Musk thread to try and keep other thread clean of this obvious tangent magnet, and then have complained when I won't let them talk politics in it 

We (i.e., a forum where I am an administrator) established clear boundaries early on.
We do not tolerate political or religious topics outside the core theme of our forum, as we know how explosive they can be from personal experience.
On our forum, you can talk about hi-fi, TV, video, DIY, music, musical instruments, computers, and the like, but nothing else.
There are more suitable platforms for everything else.
Period.
And we have been doing this for years.
If you don't absolutely have to open Pandora's box, you shouldn't do it.

[KE5FX]

So you'd rather all the Elon Musk stuff to infest dozens of other threads instead?

One strategy I've seen on other forums, which seems to work pretty well, is to set aside an Off Topic / Politics section where basically anything short of bomb threats is tolerated.  This section is visible only to paying members, to keep it from dragging down the forum's SEO and reputation in general. 

Whenever a thread elsewhere on the forum deviates into politics, the whole thread is moved over to that section.  That hides it from a large percentage of users, of course, but that's not necessarily bad.  It gets the message across to the offenders without having to ban anybody or constantly babysit threads.

[tszaboo]

I think his point was that what you set out to do is like those examples: discussing those people without mentioning the bad stuff they'd done. So trying to discuss Musk without his political effects - it's an almost impossible ask.

In that case there are only three options here:
1) Ban all talk of Elon Musk and anything he is involved with entirely from this forum, because it's "impossible" to do so without involving politics.
2) Make the Elon Musk thread a special exclusion zone being the only place on the forum where politics is allowed.
3) Remove the politics rule entirely from the forum.

Which one do you want?

IDK but I've been attacked on this forum for (list not complete):

Saying that I use colors on schematic (apparently ableism)
Not wanting to talk about geocoding billions of people (which is again the topic on the Musk's tread)
Saying that coal power plant is bad for the environment
Saying that nuclear is not that bad for the environment
Saying that geothermal heating is not a one-size-fit-all solution to all heating problems
I said some stuff about the EU (cause according to that now banned tankie, EU is bad)
I've been called racist nazi by Analog kid multiple times because i talked about the blackhawk helicopter (I'm still waiting for an apology for that)
And the latest one, taking the side of children's mental health against a billion dollar company

Some people literally have to turn everything into politics.  And by attacked, I often mean a bunch of people ganging up on you, gaslighting, name calling and getting really nasty. I put those people on my ignore list, otherwise I couldn't use this forum.

[EEVblog]

I'm done, I'm spending too much time on this shit, the Elon thread is locked.

[tggzzz]

I'm done, I'm spending too much time on this shit, the Elon thread is locked.

Good decision, IMHO.

[Monkeh]

And the latest one, taking the side of children's mental health against a billion dollar company

But that's not what you did, what you did is explicitly state a group of software developers or their corporate superiors want to kill children. Then you decided I'm part of this fantasy group you've invented which wants to kill children.

There is absolutely a reasonable discussion to be had about the safeguards around LLMs. It is not, however, anywhere near "engineers got their desired results" (in the context of: manipulation into suicide) and "people like you" (in the context of: forming your view of the world. ie. I must express and share those views and intents, because I am 'like them'.. of course, I've never done any such thing).

[EEVblog]

Do not argue about stuff not related to moderation here.

[thm_w]

A question about private messages:
There's nothing about it in the rules; but should
they really be kept private, or can they be published?

Don't think a rule is needed here, you just look like a fool if you post a private PM without some good reason behind it, and you'll lose trust.

I think his point was that what you set out to do is like those examples: discussing those people without mentioning the bad stuff they'd done. So trying to discuss Musk without his political effects - it's an almost impossible ask.

Its absolutely possible to stick to technical details only for people who have a high level of self control.
Its sometimes possible here for niche topics, something like elon though is impossible in terms of this group as a whole yes. Still, way better than FB though, the level of vitriol on there under harmless topics is disgusting.

[EEVblog]

A question about private messages:
There's nothing about it in the rules; but should
they really be kept private, or can they be published?

Don't think a rule is needed here, you just look like a fool if you post a private PM without some good reason behind it, and you'll lose trust.

I think public reputation is enough.

Its absolutely possible to stick to technical details only for people who have a high level of self control.
Its sometimes possible here for niche topics, something like elon though is impossible in terms of this group as a whole yes. Still, way better than FB though, the level of vitriol on there under harmless topics is disgusting.

As always, a few people will ruin it for everyone.

[McCarthy]

I ran a forum starting back in the 90s, equally active by daily post count. Coded it myself too, in Perl and first based on a simple txt database. Needless to say, there was no ban option, and there was no desire to ban topics or users either.

Why?

Because people didn't feel hurt by opinions.

[thm_w]

I ran a forum starting back in the 90s, equally active by daily post count. Coded it myself too, in Perl and first based on a simple txt database. Needless to say, there was no ban option, and there was no desire to ban topics or users either.

Why?

Because people didn't feel hurt by opinions.

A lot less bots in the 90s, among other things. Imagine someone whose entire purpose in life is to irritate you joins your forum, posts 100 topics per day, posts illegal content and reports your website for hosting said content, posts referral link spam, posts fishing links. Essentially all of these things have happened here.

If you bothered to read this thread, it might help.

[EEVblog]

I ran a forum starting back in the 90s, equally active by daily post count. Coded it myself too, in Perl and first based on a simple txt database. Needless to say, there was no ban option, and there was no desire to ban topics or users either.
Why?
Because people didn't feel hurt by opinions.

Doesn't work at global scale. Language, culture and political differences are enough to turn a global forum into a shithole in short order.

The Australian canyoning group I talked about was small (<1000 users) and based on an email list on Yahoo Groups, zero moderation was needed. Then it moved to Facebook and grew 10 times the size, and before you know it, full blown People's Front Of Judea.

[BradC]

before you know it, full blown People's Front Of Judea.

The only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People Front.

</on topic>  I wouldn't want to be you with all the snowflake whingers to worry about. Thanks Reg. </>

[wilfred]

I'm done, I'm spending too much time on this shit, the Elon thread is locked.

I can't say I blame you, but with this response you gave "So you'd rather all the Elon Musk stuff to infest dozens of other threads instead?" where does that leave things?

I didn't think a thread about Elon Musk would end any other way but I at least hoped it would go some way to sand-boxing those who just cannot grasp that the forum is made a less interesting place by highly opinionated and ill-considered posts. 

What options are there? Can you control the frequency people can post? Can it be done on a thread basis or is it forum wide. Even if that was possible where would the triggers be set?

 If you had statistics of the number of members who are active, say posting at least once per week, and the number of highly active users who post most frequently you might be able to discern a threshold to separate those who can flood the forum with posts that show little regard or respect for others from the vast majority of members who just don't. Or at least if they did it wouldn't have the weight of numbers. The assumption being most members wouldn't ever get told to wait and those who do find themselves running on with combative posts would at least find themselves forced to sit and have a think about it. If it was on a per day basis they'd have to come back tomorrow. If it was per hour then they could still be told to come back tomorrow. At least they'd have a chance to question just how much they want to rattle off a stream of posts just to try to win an argument.

[tggzzz]

I ran a forum starting back in the 90s, equally active by daily post count. Coded it myself too, in Perl and first based on a simple txt database. Needless to say, there was no ban option, and there was no desire to ban topics or users either.

Why?

Because people didn't feel hurt by opinions.

Back then they were probably also using usenet. People donned flameproof clothing and mentally prepared themselves before opening the usenet readers.

Youngsters simply won't be able to comprehend the level of vitriol and bad practices that occurred all the time. As a trivial example, consider the usenet group alt.bork.bork.bork.bork.bork.bork

[tggzzz]

A lot less bots in the 90s, among other things. Imagine someone whose entire purpose in life is to irritate you joins your forum, posts 100 topics per day, posts illegal content and reports your website for hosting said content, posts referral link spam, posts fishing links. Essentially all of these things have happened here.

All those things were standard practice that occurred every single day on usenet. People dealt with it and moved on.

It didn't start with Canter and Siegel, but their actions were the reason Hormel Foods' product name was indelibly tarnished - and was tarnished in your post

[tggzzz]

I ran a forum starting back in the 90s, equally active by daily post count. Coded it myself too, in Perl and first based on a simple txt database. Needless to say, there was no ban option, and there was no desire to ban topics or users either.
Why?
Because people didn't feel hurt by opinions.

Doesn't work at global scale. Language, culture and political differences are enough to turn a global forum into a shithole in short order.

Well, yes it did work at global scale for several decades: usenet. Still does, although the posting volume is much reduced.

People dealt with with the significant problems, partly by developing the tools to make it less intolerable - where intolerable was defined by each user.

Can't do that effectively on forums, since new tools cannot be developed. Yet another example of the advantages of the used-based edge-centric philosophy over the corporate centralised philosophy.

[tggzzz]

Looks like the current feud is spreading to other threads. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/chatgpt-suicide-coach-lawsuit/msg6114919/#msg6114919

If nothing else that reiterates a lesson from usenet: starting a cesspit thread to entice all the flies away from other threads doesn't work and does create a breeding place.

Oh well, it was worth trying.

[ebastler]

Looks like the current feud is spreading to other threads. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/chatgpt-suicide-coach-lawsuit/msg6114919/#msg6114919

If nothing else that reiterates a lesson from usenet: starting a cesspit thread to entice all the flies away from other threads doesn't work and does create a breeding place.

Oh well, it was worth trying.

May I repeat the observation that it's nearly exclusively longstanding members with thousands of posts who get involved in these quarrels. We are not attracting the wrong people; it's the people who have been here for years.

Maybe this forum is devolving into a "toxic marriage" setting, where some people have seen too much of each other and have been irritated about the other guy squeezing-the-toothpaste-the-wrong-way for too long? Or do we just have too many grumpy old men struggling with the fact that they are no longer important on the job, who feel the need to "make a point" here on every topic they come across?

[Monkeh]

May I repeat the observation that it's nearly exclusively longstanding members with thousands of posts who get involved in these quarrels. We are not attracting the wrong people; it's the people who have been here for years.

New users who get involved in these altercations often get banned.

[TUMEMBER]

I think his point was that what you set out to do is like those examples: discussing those people without mentioning the bad stuff they'd done. So trying to discuss Musk without his political effects - it's an almost impossible ask.

In that case there are only three options here:
1) Ban all talk of Elon Musk and anything he is involved with entirely from this forum, because it's "impossible" to do so without involving politics.
2) Make the Elon Musk thread a special exclusion zone being the only place on the forum where politics is allowed.
3) Remove the politics rule entirely from the forum.

Which one do you want?

Option #2.
Let them spill their guts. They won't be posting on other threads; they'll have to have a cesspool somewhere or their bladders will burst. But before entering the thread, they'll click on the rules, stating that they won't claim "defamation, religious differences, and other most important things in THEIR lives."
It's a cage, a HYDE PARK for "boisterous tomcats." A moderator doesn't have to respond to a "report from a wounded kitten"—no harm comes to those who want it.

[ebastler]

[...] It's a cage [...]

Cage as in "cage fight", you mean? I dunno whether we want that here, disclaimers or not.

[m k]

1) Ban all talk of Elon Musk the person.