Forum Moderation

[EEVblog]

Obviously got to be a sweet spot between the two extremes, so the alternative to one isn't necessarily 100% the other.
Generally seems to work OK on here within the error margin, has to be said 

I think so too. But there will always be people like the OP who don't see it that way. They either want perfect moderation to their taste, or zero moderation.
I'm not criticising that, wanting that is fine, I can see the merits in both extremes, but the problem is what works in practice in the long run.

Personally, I'm more of a free speech absolutist, but I know what destroys forums and what works in practice. And I've seen countless times over-moderation destroy forum, and I've seen under or zero moderation destroy forums.

If that were true, then why did you delete the post of mansaxel (fortunately preserved for posterity in nested quotes), apparently on the sole word of Siwastaja? You did not engage with mansaxel at all prior to deletion.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/forum-moderation/msg5804511/#msg5804511

[EEVblog]

This forum isn't building a profile of what I read, who I follow, how long I stare at any particular post.

I think you might be surprised.

The difference is I don't care what data can be extracted from the database.

[tszaboo]

Mind you, I'm not exactly actively keeping up with the specifics - Twitter was barely relevant to me when it was viewable.

And if you look at the specifics I think you'll find the reasons weren't the same as Twitter 1.0, and practically all of them are back after a temp ban.
The new X is a vastly, VASTLY safer free speech platform than the old Twitter. Heck, Elon even let Alex Jones back on the platform, a man he viscerally hated, the ultimate litmus test.

Ok I'm off the rollercoaster now.

Dave you've got a fucking brain worm mate.

You're part of the problem.

Which problem?

[magic]

I suppose "the problem" is members leaving due to off topic conflicts with others or with Dave.

I could name a few: GK, blueskull, TiN, the whole TEA exodus. Most recently T3sl4co1l seems to have stopped posting after an argument about banning the humanoid robot guy.

That being said, if you look at those people and their reasons, it's quite unclear what sort of moderation would have prevented those events. Not even a zero policy on anything remotely off topic, because part of the TEA problem was that they wanted to have off topic, and some of their off topic (I recall firearms) kept triggering other whiners.

AFAIK, the TEA guys (including bd139) left to their own forum which is basically their small and insulated echo chamber, so it's easy for them to talk about "effective moderation" or "just getting along with each other". They should try having a few more members and more traffic and then report back how well it went.

[Siwastaja]

If that were true, then why did you delete the post of mansaxel (fortunately preserved for posterity in nested quotes), apparently on the sole word of Siwastaja?

Come on, maybe Dave did read the post he deleted. It was so blatantly obviously against forum rules, specifically #5.

I have veered off-topic in politics, too, and IIRC I have had a post or two deleted. And it is only right - the rule about no off-topic political discussion is a clear rule. I can accept it. Why can't you?

I simply pointed out to Dave that some people write strongly political posts (like those labeling very large groups of people nazis) in order to agitate. This is definition of trolling - expressing a strong opinion on political subject likely to cause uproar, to get replies.

Deleting that kind of posts is more effective in fighting against off-topic political discussion, than only removing replies to those posts.

This is not your political forum. Discuss politics elsewhere.

[JPortici]

I kind of see what bd's pointing at, albeit not as strongly as he does.
in the last few years i've lost interested in posting because many possibly interesting discussions turns early on in the mostly same old debates from mostly the same users so what happens is that i usually check out a thread, think i may contribute, start reading replies, see yet again the same debate, lose interest for a few days, try replying on topic to stir the conversation away from the debate, reply lost in the debate, fuck it, back to lurking.
Though i deliberatly stay away from threads such as thunderfoot's, but simply because in the end i don't give a damn about that guy

I'm sorry for how things have turned to in this thread, generally i like bd's contributions a lot

to his favor, calling twitter - or reddit for that matter - anything other than a cancerous cesspool, is probably due to the fact that you spent a lot of time creating your bubble, and refuse to look at what's outside of it.

[tggzzz]

I could name a few: GK, blueskull, TiN, the whole TEA exodus. Most recently T3sl4co1l seems to have stopped posting after an argument about banning the humanoid robot guy.

Whatever the reason, TiN and T3sl4co1l and GK leaving is a very definite loss to the forum.

I haven't spotted any replacements of equivalent quality, and have spotted more and more posters/threads that annoy me.

That obedient "anatomically correct companion" <ahem> guy was one of those, and a good example of the 1857 Gresham's Law: "the bad (money) drives out the good".

Conclusion: from my PoV there has been a deterioration. Empires rot from within.

AFAIK, the TEA guys (including bd139) left to their own forum which is basically their small and insulated echo chamber, so it's easy for them to talk about "effective moderation" or "just getting along with each other". They should try having a few more members and more traffic and then report back how well it went.

The Other Plaice isn't an echo chamber per se; "a few blokes nattering in the pub" is a better analogy.

I can't remember any discussions about "effective moderation" or similar. Certainly growth would bring problems, just as it has here.

[AVGresponding]

AFAIK, the TEA guys (including bd139) left to their own forum which is basically their small and insulated echo chamber, so it's easy for them to talk about "effective moderation" or "just getting along with each other". They should try having a few more members and more traffic and then report back how well it went.

If you think it's just an echo chamber, that everyone thinks and believes the same things, you haven't spent any time there at all.

There's plenty of conflicts and arguments, and we deal with it like adults; by calling each other names, going off to sulk, and ignoring people we don't like.

 

[Siwastaja]

T3sl4co1l seems to have stopped posting

Whatever the reason, TiN and T3sl4co1l and GK leaving is a very definite loss to the forum.

While I agree that especially T3sl4co1l stopping/reducing posting seems like a big loss, it's again different thing to blame the forum for it. Blaming the environment is the easy answer. The more difficult question is, what has happened with T3sl4co1l? He used to be one of my favorite posters as well. But during last few years, I couldn't avoid seeing his posts getting more and more messy, harder to digest than before. His posts never were easy, I don't mean that, they sure were challenging and that's good; answers in engineering are not always simple. But recently I have became a bit worried of what's going on, with his contributions increasingly more difficult to follow, with unnecessarily rant-y and confrontational elements mixed in more than before. (I can recognize that behavior since I'm prone to it as well in varying degree depending on how stressed out I am, for example.)

I'm quite sure there is nothing wrong with my understanding; I can still read Nominal Animal's equally long posts just fine, for example (and he's not the only one writing verbose). But during last year or two I started skipping T3sl4co1l's replies more and more.

It is hard to criticize someone whose contributions you deeply like. Criticizing the environment (and making "the nice guy" a victim of it) seems an easier way out. Yet I can't do it - if I forced myself to say that the forum, or atmosphere of the forum, somehow ruined T3sl4co1l or made him stop contributing, I would be lying. Plus, I know from personal experience that self-victimization is counterproductive (and helping others to become "victims" a huge disservice). #1 factor to our behavior comes from inside of us; doing what is in your power to do; dealing with what is around us.

[madires]

IMHO, the moderators of this forum do an excellent job. They are right at the sweet spot. I've experienced the BBS era (did run one myself), FTN networks (Fidonet & Co), Usenet (newsgroups) and what we call social media today. Have seen daily flame wars, games of power and many things more from the dark side of humans. I would consider this forum some kind of sanctuary, even with the occasional nutjob or troll.

[tggzzz]

T3sl4co1l seems to have stopped posting

Whatever the reason, TiN and T3sl4co1l and GK leaving is a very definite loss to the forum.

While I agree that especially T3sl4co1l stopping/reducing posting seems like a big loss, it's again different thing to blame the forum for it.

I haven't blamed the forum, of course.

Skimming his later posts https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?area=showposts;u=92330 indicates he was becoming wound up by some of the positions espoused here.

Example, where he made very cogent and accurate arguments about "free speech absolutists": https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/hack-a-day-comment-censorship/msg5687017/#msg5687017

That he has expressed those arguments in that way makes it look like he has found this forum to be becoming an unwelcoming place. I can understand where he is coming from; apparently others can too.

[krish2487]

Example, where he made very cogent and accurate arguments about "free speech absolutists": https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/hack-a-day-comment-censorship/msg5687017/#msg5687017

That he has expressed those arguments in that way makes it look like he has found this forum to be becoming an unwelcoming place. I can understand where he is coming from; apparently others can too.

FWIW Let me preface by saying that I like many of T3slacoil's posts, and I m rather sorry to see less and less of him here.. on a technical aspect...
but.. he made those statements against free speech absolutists under the freedom of expression that Dave and other moderators here provided him with isnt it?
It is ironic that some of the very arguments he has expressed against absolute free speech allowed him to make those very statements..

and to be more clear, while he advocated for a low entropy to have a meaningful discussion, his post infact achieved the exact opposite isnt it?
It takes two to tango.... and his engagement with pcprogrammer and flying off the handle is entirely his choosing to do so..
To be clear I m not taking sides with pcprogrammer here.. I m merely pointing out that his(T3slacoil's) responses were infact responsible to a certain degree to make him feel like the forum is an unwelcoming place..

[nctnico]

Obviously got to be a sweet spot between the two extremes, so the alternative to one isn't necessarily 100% the other.
Generally seems to work OK on here within the error margin, has to be said 

I think so too. But there will always be people like the OP who don't see it that way. They either want perfect moderation to their taste, or zero moderation.
I'm not criticising that, wanting that is fine, I can see the merits in both extremes, but the problem is what works in practice in the long run.

Personally, I'm more of a free speech absolutist, but I know what destroys forums and what works in practice. And I've seen countless times over-moderation destroy forum, and I've seen under or zero moderation destroy forums.

IMHO your current forum rules to stay away from politics and religion works well. The big social media would be much better places if they had similar rules.

[magic]

TBH he wouldn't have quit if he had been banned for personal attacks first <insert the thinking guy meme here>.

In short, you approve of, and encourage, all of the above.  It does not matter if that support is tacit: "well, people just need to be tolerant of those things; we must cherish that other people can be bold enough to say these things from time to time."  No.  Fuck you.  Fuck directly out of here.  There is no place in civilized society for that Twitter fanboy pseudo-libertarian bullshit.  Laws exist for a reason.  Learn some basic fucking civics.  And more importantly, develop some compassion.  Until then, out, go, now, you are not fit for civilized society.

This guy looks like a closeted SJW so I guess I can understand his disappointment with how things are turning out, not only on this forum. In fact, long ago I wasted plenty of time trying to convince people like him back then that they will end up like him today, to no avail. And I also quit one forum when it became overrun by SJWs and my tolerance ran out, so again I guess I can see where he is coming from.

While I agree that especially T3sl4co1l stopping/reducing posting seems like a big loss, it's again different thing to blame the forum for it. Blaming the environment is the easy answer. The more difficult question is, what has happened with T3sl4co1l? He used to be one of my favorite posters as well. But during last few years, I couldn't avoid seeing his posts getting more and more messy, harder to digest than before. His posts never were easy, I don't mean that, they sure were challenging and that's good; answers in engineering are not always simple. But recently I have became a bit worried of what's going on, with his contributions increasingly more difficult to follow, with unnecessarily rant-y and confrontational elements mixed in more than before. (I can recognize that behavior since I'm prone to it as well in varying degree depending on how stressed out I am, for example.)

I think he grew frustrated with people not caring much about his posts and kept decreasing his effort. Which is positive feedback in itself, but also he mostly posted in question threads and people (usually beginners) asking those questions typically just wanted specific answers to their problem, not walls of text, so maybe the whole thing was doomed. He probably should have been running a blog or a yoot00b channel or something like that instead.

[tszaboo]

I suppose "the problem" is members leaving due to off topic conflicts with others or with Dave.

I could name a few: GK, blueskull, TiN, the whole TEA exodus. Most recently T3sl4co1l seems to have stopped posting after an argument about banning the humanoid robot guy.

Right, I don't follow the TEA thread, and the humanoid robot guy was clearly a lunatic, so I just stayed away. I don't like that TiN left he was a very good community member (I was honestly afraid that something might have happened to him). Same goes for T3sl4co1l.
If someone bothers you, place him on the ignore list, and stop interacting. It's not that hard. There are 7 Billion people left to interact with, you don't have to react to any of these negative people.

But I can also see why they would leave. I've seen several times when forum members (even in this very thread) group up and bully someone, who had different opinion. It even happened to me once or twice. Individually they don't do anything to get themselves banned, but together they act like a hivemind who uses tactics like Strawman, Ad Hominem or out of context quoting and other dishonest discussion techniques. I'm not surprised why this drives people away. I don't have a problem calling them out on this behavior, but this can totally make someone feel like they are not welcomed here. Unfortunately it's not unique to this forum.
But moderation is difficult. And it's ironic, people who are asking for more moderation, are usually the ones that should be booted from... practically everywhere. If you can only operate in an echo chamber, then by all means make one for yourself. If their problem is that the EEVBlog is not being converted into their echo chamber, with virtue signaling and banning every different though... I guess they can still go to reddit. Or continue here if they can do it without all the mental breakdowns.

[Monkeh]

Ok, possible, please name them.

Bear in mind, I can no longer see anything happening there. It was closed off and keeping track of drama isn't my thing.

 

It's widely known by everyone now that there is no longer any sword of Damocles hanging over your head. If you don't know this, I don't know what to tell you, you must not be involved in X much at all to not know this.

And isn't it interesting how when you're told that's exactly the case, it flies by, as if it's unthinkable that people aren't using Twitter every day.

This forum isn't building a profile of what I read, who I follow, how long I stare at any particular post.

I think you might be surprised.

I doubt that. I have a pretty good idea of how the database for the forum works (I've run a few, after all..). There's a big difference between the data it uses for its internal functions and the sort of activity large social media platforms get up to. There's a reason you cannot look into Twitter from outside, and it's all about what they want from you.

[Siwastaja]

IMHO your current forum rules to stay away from politics and religion works well. The big social media would be much better places if they had similar rules.

While I agree that rule to forbid politics and religion is great here (because it's an electronics forum), I think we need places where we can discuss politics and religion. It's pretty important for our modern-day Western ideas of democracy, free speech etc.

I don't participate in such discussion online at all (except for very infrequent short divertions on this forum, which I realize is against the forum rules, and at least won't complain if moderators delete my posts or warn me), but I understand that many people want to do so. It's better to discuss freely in public, than to do it "underground", IMHO.

[tggzzz]

Example, where he made very cogent and accurate arguments about "free speech absolutists": https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/hack-a-day-comment-censorship/msg5687017/#msg5687017

That he has expressed those arguments in that way makes it look like he has found this forum to be becoming an unwelcoming place. I can understand where he is coming from; apparently others can too.

FWIW Let me preface by saying that I like many of T3slacoil's posts, and I m rather sorry to see less and less of him here.. on a technical aspect...
but.. he made those statements against free speech absolutists under the freedom of expression that Dave and other moderators here provided him with isnt it?
It is ironic that some of the very arguments he has expressed against absolute free speech allowed him to make those very statements..

Ah. A classic example of someone that completely failed to understand the points he was making, and switched to making an irrelevant point.

Have you ever come across the concept that just because X could be done, it doesn't mean X should be done. Especially if X is against the common good.

Presumably you also feel, as a free speech absolutist, that it is acceptable to shout "fire" in a crowded club/theatre, or to knowingly spout lies?

[tggzzz]

If someone bothers you, place him on the ignore list, and stop interacting. It's not that hard. There are 7 Billion people left to interact with, you don't have to react to any of these negative people.

That worked well on usenet, with "ignore subthread" filters. The twits effectively ceased to exist.

It barely does anything on this forum (and others): you still see their threads (until you manually ignore them) and still see they have made nonsense posts, and still see all the replies to their posts. All it does is remind you that the twit exists.

[tggzzz]

TBH he wouldn't have quit if he had been banned for personal attacks first <insert the thinking guy meme here>.

In short, you approve of, and encourage, all of the above.  It does not matter if that support is tacit: "well, people just need to be tolerant of those things; we must cherish that other people can be bold enough to say these things from time to time."  No.  Fuck you.  Fuck directly out of here.  There is no place in civilized society for that Twitter fanboy pseudo-libertarian bullshit.  Laws exist for a reason.  Learn some basic fucking civics.  And more importantly, develop some compassion.  Until then, out, go, now, you are not fit for civilized society.

This guy looks like a closeted SJW

Ah, a classic way of shutting down a reasonable discourse. No evidence, of course, but that no longer matters. Alternative facts rulez.

I think he grew frustrated with people not caring much about his posts and kept decreasing his effort. Which is positive feedback in itself, but also he mostly posted in question threads and people (usually beginners) asking those questions typically just wanted specific answers to their problem, not walls of text, so maybe the whole thing was doomed. He probably should have been running a blog or a yoot00b channel or something like that instead.

That's an wild-arsed unsupported assertion that just happens to suit your agenda. 

Based on his posting history and what he actually wrote (cf what you ignore or don't understand), it is much more likely that he grew tired of people spouting "alternative facts" and acting as if their "might" makes "right".

In other words, the attitude and statements of people like you have driven him out. "Bad (money) drives out the good".

[krish2487]

Example, where he made very cogent and accurate arguments about "free speech absolutists": https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/hack-a-day-comment-censorship/msg5687017/#msg5687017

That he has expressed those arguments in that way makes it look like he has found this forum to be becoming an unwelcoming place. I can understand where he is coming from; apparently others can too.

FWIW Let me preface by saying that I like many of T3slacoil's posts, and I m rather sorry to see less and less of him here.. on a technical aspect...
but.. he made those statements against free speech absolutists under the freedom of expression that Dave and other moderators here provided him with isnt it?
It is ironic that some of the very arguments he has expressed against absolute free speech allowed him to make those very statements..

Ah. A classic example of someone that completely failed to understand the points he was making, and switched to making an irrelevant point.

Have you ever come across the concept that just because X could be done, it doesn't mean X should be done. Especially if X is against the common good.

Presumably you also feel, as a free speech absolutist, that it is acceptable to shout "fire" in a crowded club/theatre, or to knowingly spout lies?

ad hominem much...
I never said freedom of speech is freedom from consequences...
As the saying goes... fuck around and find out... but should someone have the right to shout fire in a crowded theatre... absolutely..
From what you are suggesting should one not shout even if there is a fire in a crowded theatre ?? or if one genuinely believes there is a fire ??
Should we castigate and persecute such people if they do shout ?

What I believe is entirely besides the point. My post was to argue that he himself was responsible to a large extent for how he felt in the forum.

I still fail to see what point your post is making here..

[bdunham7]

Presumably you also feel, as a free speech absolutist, that it is acceptable to shout "fire" in a crowded club/theatre, or to knowingly spout lies?

This is an example of you displaying the same sort of toxic behavior that you accuse others of--in this case, misstating someone's position and then skewering that misstatment.  Reduction ad absurdum is only a valid tactic if you apply it to the actual statement that the person has made. krish2487 did not claim here to be a free speech absolutist, he used the term "the freedom of expression that Dave and other moderators here provided him" and didn't even explicitly advocate that position. 

As a logical matter, your position is the ridiculous one IMO.  If you say "free speech absolutist, provided..." then you're not an absolutist.  Absolute with a qualifier is an oxymoron in my view.  Perhaps others have a different take but I don't see it being logically supportable.  Just face up to the fact that you simply have the same repressive desires that a lot of other people have.  And, for the record, I'm not an absolute free speech advocate because it simply doesn't work as a concept. 

Look in the mirror, the troll might be you.  TBH, I've been guilty of that too once in a while.

[nctnico]

IMHO your current forum rules to stay away from politics and religion works well. The big social media would be much better places if they had similar rules.

While I agree that rule to forbid politics and religion is great here (because it's an electronics forum), I think we need places where we can discuss politics and religion. It's pretty important for our modern-day Western ideas of democracy, free speech etc.

For sure people need places to discuss those things. But if I'm interpreting Dave's rules properly: the Eevblog forum is not such a place. There are plenty of other online fora where you can debate politics, religion and what not.

[Zucca]

Yeah killing the old TEA was a huge mistake, but we should not forget how the immense TiN was basically banned because of his signature.

This is the by far the biggest moderation mistake done on this forum.
TiN was right, and I support his drastic decision to not play anymore here.

IMHO.

[tggzzz]

Presumably you also feel, as a free speech absolutist, that it is acceptable to shout "fire" in a crowded club/theatre, or to knowingly spout lies?

This is an example of you displaying the same sort of toxic behavior that you accuse others of--in this case, misstating someone's position and then skewering that misstatment.

Er.... He has written (my emphasis)

... but should someone have the right to shout fire in a crowded theatre... absolutely..

Reduction ad absurdum is only a valid tactic if you apply it to the actual statement that the person has made. krish2487 did not claim here to be a free speech absolutist, he used the term "the freedom of expression that Dave and other moderators here provided him" and didn't even explicitly advocate that position. 

See above.

Look in the mirror, the troll might be you.  TBH, I've been guilty of that too once in a while.

If I used "their" techniques, then "they" have no right to complain. But often - as in this case - "they" do complain and shout "foul".