Author Topic: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box  (Read 56058 times)

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Online mikerj

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2014, 06:32:39 pm »
and again.. anything modern simply can't be SAFELY TUNED via a "power box" , you have to manipulate (correctly and carefully) the ECU maps.

You seem to be (quite aggressively) displaying a lot of ignorance on how modern common rail systems function.  It's not only entirely possible to increase the power output with relative safety, you can buy a wide range of 'tuning boxes' to achieve this.

You can only increase fuel pressure by so much before protection systems with the ECU will flag a fault, but to suggest that is can't be done at all is ridiculous.

have you ever used such a "tuning box" ? did you know that the fuel pressure is ONLY ONE VARIABLE determining the amount of fuel injected for common rail engines ? did you even know that there are several injections (even 5+ injections for modern CRs) per cycle , not just the single pilot and main injection per cycle as it was with rotary pumps and pressure driven injectors.

all of those "tuning boxes" are either a scam or something what will give you some boost, but will destroy your engine after few tens of thousands of kilometers.
#

Yes I knew all these things.  If you calmed down and applied a little bit of common sense, you'd realise that the points you have made regarding pilot injection events is exactly why fuel pressure can be used to manipulate engine output without having to mess with injector timing and duration.


and exactly that was my point ! it's impossible to tune a modern CR engine via manipulating the sensor signals (a.k.a. tuning/power box) you have to manipulate the ECU maps (or if you wish , develop a whole new ECU).

100% incorrect I'm afraid.  Tuning boxes work whether you want to believe this or not.  Some vehicles yield better results than others for sure, but they give a useful power/torque increases on most common rail diesels.

Obviously if you are trying to extract every last bit of power from an engine, a tuning box would be useless and a complete re-map (likely on an aftermarket ECU) would be needed to cope with the vastly different fueling requirements.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 06:37:34 pm by mikerj »
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2014, 07:06:52 pm »
Might as well give it up Mike, arguing with a politician is pointless!  Just make one more addition to your ignore list and move on happy.

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2014, 09:10:24 pm »


and exactly that was my point ! it's impossible to tune a modern CR engine via manipulating the sensor signals (a.k.a. tuning/power box) you have to manipulate the ECU maps (or if you wish , develop a whole new ECU).

100% incorrect I'm afraid.  Tuning boxes work whether you want to believe this or not.  Some vehicles yield better results than others for sure, but they give a useful power/torque increases on most common rail diesels.

Obviously if you are trying to extract every last bit of power from an engine, a tuning box would be useless and a complete re-map (likely on an aftermarket ECU) would be needed to cope with the vastly different fueling requirements.

show me please ONE power box for a modern CR engine (high pressure pump - 2k bars, particulate filter - DPF , SCR with adblue/def injection) and then feel free to add me into your ignore list ;) btw...that powepuck mentioned above is definitely not a powerbox for a modern CR.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2014, 01:41:09 pm »
(P.S. Modifying the output of MAP sensors with zener clamps was a crude technique I came across in the distant past)
What worked very well in my previous car was a 1.2V zener diode in the ground leg of the turbo pressure sensor giving it an offset at low pressure. It improved the driveability (more power at low RPM) and fuel economy a lot.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online mikerj

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2014, 12:50:27 pm »


and exactly that was my point ! it's impossible to tune a modern CR engine via manipulating the sensor signals (a.k.a. tuning/power box) you have to manipulate the ECU maps (or if you wish , develop a whole new ECU).

100% incorrect I'm afraid.  Tuning boxes work whether you want to believe this or not.  Some vehicles yield better results than others for sure, but they give a useful power/torque increases on most common rail diesels.

Obviously if you are trying to extract every last bit of power from an engine, a tuning box would be useless and a complete re-map (likely on an aftermarket ECU) would be needed to cope with the vastly different fueling requirements.

show me please ONE power box for a modern CR engine (high pressure pump - 2k bars, particulate filter - DPF , SCR with adblue/def injection) and then feel free to add me into your ignore list ;) btw...that powepuck mentioned above is definitely not a powerbox for a modern CR.

One large portion of bitter tasting humble pie coming up:

http://www.tdi-tuning.co.uk/car_and_van_diesel_tuning_boxes_C7.html
http://www.diesel-performance.co.uk
http://www.bluesparkautomotive.com/
http://www.tuningbox.com/en/home.htm
 

Offline DeepDive

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2014, 01:34:55 pm »
Diesel Tuning boxes on Modern CR engines do work!
I have been using one for more than 50k odd clicks and I'm happy with the performance gains. I agree that the performance gains are not as high as what a professional ECU remap can deliver, but a tuning box is definitely a good and often cheaper alternative.

Are there other car enthusiasts willing and able to help?

I would love to help in testing this as much as possible.
Also I would like to understand how this is accomplished via 'duino.

  • Which variant of Arduino are you using?
  • Are you using the PWM DAC using AnalogWrite() or a dedicated DAC?
  • Apart from the signal from the CR sensor (0.5-4.5v), any other signal that you are modifying? - The tuning box which I have modifies only the CR sensor signal, but I've heard about boxes which manipulates more than one signal for better performance - No experience in using multi-channel boxes yet.
  • If you are manipulating more than one signal, are there any correlation between them? Any way to deduce LOAD or RPM from these signals?
  • How did you arrive at the variations required to the original signal? Are they a fixed increment or a condition based LUT or formula?

« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 01:46:42 pm by DeepDive »
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2014, 02:31:40 pm »


and exactly that was my point ! it's impossible to tune a modern CR engine via manipulating the sensor signals (a.k.a. tuning/power box) you have to manipulate the ECU maps (or if you wish , develop a whole new ECU).

100% incorrect I'm afraid.  Tuning boxes work whether you want to believe this or not.  Some vehicles yield better results than others for sure, but they give a useful power/torque increases on most common rail diesels.

Obviously if you are trying to extract every last bit of power from an engine, a tuning box would be useless and a complete re-map (likely on an aftermarket ECU) would be needed to cope with the vastly different fueling requirements.

show me please ONE power box for a modern CR engine (high pressure pump - 2k bars, particulate filter - DPF , SCR with adblue/def injection) and then feel free to add me into your ignore list ;) btw...that powepuck mentioned above is definitely not a powerbox for a modern CR.

One large portion of bitter tasting humble pie coming up:

http://www.tdi-tuning.co.uk/car_and_van_diesel_tuning_boxes_C7.html
http://www.diesel-performance.co.uk
http://www.bluesparkautomotive.com/
http://www.tuningbox.com/en/home.htm

yeah for sure it's safe ... and that'w the reason why they placing all the bullshit on their webpage as a bitmap and not text.... (google can't index the bulshit if it's in a bitmap instead of text).

increase airflow, flueal while not over-stressing the turbo and pump... for sure grandma... now tell me the one about red riding hood :-DD 


one which looks more-or-less believable is TDUK, but i'm not able to find any details HOW it's connected to the engine... they just mention "DPF safe" (however on various forums there are threads about "limp-mode days" and need to upgrade the software for that "DPF safe" version)

 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2014, 02:36:17 pm »
Diesel Tuning boxes on Modern CR engines do work!
I have been using one for more than 50k odd clicks and I'm happy with the performance gains. I agree that the performance gains are not as high as what a professional ECU remap can deliver, but a tuning box is definitely a good and often cheaper alternative.

Are there other car enthusiasts willing and able to help?

I would love to help in testing this as much as possible.
Also I would like to understand how this is accomplished via 'duino.

  • Which variant of Arduino are you using?
  • Are you using the PWM DAC using AnalogWrite() or a dedicated DAC?
  • Apart from the signal from the CR sensor (0.5-4.5v), any other signal that you are modifying? - The tuning box which I have modifies only the CR sensor signal, but I've heard about boxes which manipulates more than one signal for better performance - No experience in using multi-channel boxes yet.
  • If you are manipulating more than one signal, are there any correlation between them? Any way to deduce LOAD or RPM from these signals?
  • How did you arrive at the variations required to the original signal? Are they a fixed increment or a condition based LUT or formula?

before you try to hook your arduino into the control loop of the high pressure pump... please hook it into the feedback loop of your bench power supply first... and have a look how wildly your bech psu will oscillate.... now imagine what will happen if the high pressure pump's controll loop will oscillate like that.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2014, 02:28:53 pm »
yeah for sure it's safe ... and that'w the reason why they placing all the bullshit on their webpage as a bitmap and not text.... (google can't index the bulshit if it's in a bitmap instead of text).
Most 'car tuning' parts are complete bullshit just like audiophool components. There is a sucker born every minute so the market is huge. I expect a tuning box to have some effect though. More power at lower RPM and maybe a few kW more power in the high end. In the NL you can't legally increase the power of the engine in your car by more than 10% without having the car tested and the registration changed. It has to do with safety; a faster car needs better brakes. I guess it is the same in many other countries.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online mikerj

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2014, 06:13:52 pm »
yeah for sure it's safe ... and that'w the reason why they placing all the bullshit on their webpage as a bitmap and not text.... (google can't index the bulshit if it's in a bitmap instead of text).

Progress!  We've suddenly shifted from "it's impossible to tune a modern CR engine via manipulating the sensor signals" to "it's not safe"  :-DD

It is pretty safe since the ECU knows the permissible range of pump or PCV drive levels, so you can only manipulate the output within those constraints.  Attempting to increase the fuel pressure too much will simply result in a fault code being thrown and the ECU dropping to it's fail safe operating mode ("limp home").
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2014, 06:13:06 am »
yeah for sure it's safe ... and that'w the reason why they placing all the bullshit on their webpage as a bitmap and not text.... (google can't index the bulshit if it's in a bitmap instead of text).

Progress!  We've suddenly shifted from "it's impossible to tune a modern CR engine via manipulating the sensor signals" to "it's not safe"  :-DD

It is pretty safe since the ECU knows the permissible range of pump or PCV drive levels, so you can only manipulate the output within those constraints.  Attempting to increase the fuel pressure too much will simply result in a fault code being thrown and the ECU dropping to it's fail safe operating mode ("limp home").

reply #26 (and that reply wasn't edited so it was there)...

Quote
and again.. anything modern simply can't be SAFELY TUNED via a "power box" , you have to manipulate (correctly and carefully) the ECU maps.
Modify message

please read the whole thread before commenting on "improvements"  ;)

can you please explain how the hell will the ECO know that the pressure is outside of permissible range if the powerbox is manipulating the pressure sensor signal ? you will always rely on the powerbox and hope it will not push the limits too far.

and don't forget guys... good long lasting engines with lot's of headroom are a thing of the past :( today's engines are already pushed closer to the limits by the manufacturer.
 

Online mikerj

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2014, 05:02:07 pm »
can you please explain how the hell will the ECO know that the pressure is outside of permissible range if the powerbox is manipulating the pressure sensor signal ? you will always rely on the powerbox and hope it will not push the limits too far.

I thought the answer was pretty obvious from my previous post, but I'll try again.

Fuel pressure is under closed loop control, i.e. the ECU measures fuel pressure and controls either the pump or the PVR to achieve a target pressure value.
The drive range to either the fuel pump or PRV is limited within the ECU.  Raising the fuel pressure by manipulating the pressure sensor readings will increase the FP/PVR drive level.
If the drive level hits the internal safety limit, the ECU reverts to it's safe operating strategy.

FWIW I'm taking Dr Diesel's advice,  I really can't be bothered trying to convince you any more.
 

Offline DeepDive

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2014, 02:42:50 am »
Can we please go ahead discussing the project specifics (hardware, firmware, software and implementation) rather than just the "perceived" cons of it?

I am actually waiting for luky315 to provide more project details so that we all can understand these "black boxes" better.

I totally agree with mikerj that it is almost impossible to overdrive the fuel rail or high pressure pump. It is just that they would be working more time at slightly higher pressures over its average pressure, but not over their hard-coded limits built into the ECU tables. MTBF may come down a tiny bit, but not big enough to be panicked about.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 02:48:42 am by DeepDive »
 

Offline ben.indo

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2014, 05:32:37 pm »
Hi Everyone,

Registered because of this topic.  It is safe to alter the rail pressure by fooling the CRP sensor.  ECU will throw a code when the rail pressure is too high, and the relief valve in the common rail will also engaged if the pressure is getting too high.  Higher pressure means more fuel getting delivered by the injector and also better atomization of the diesel inside the combustion chamber.

Please google racechip.  It has 2 potentiometer which set the value of power increase (or rather decrease of sensor values), and the width of the band (upper limit of voltage which the unit decrease sensor values). This 2 setting will allow fine tuning so that final setting will not make the ECU throw a fail code.

If its possible to make in Arduino, I would also take a reading of the MAP sensor, but instead of lowering value, we will increase the value, higher pressure makes the ECU command to inject more fuel. But doing this will need to take throttle value, make a 2D map/matrix of RPM and TPS for the boost pressure adjustment.

Would love to see this come to a reality. I don't know much about Arduino but I know a bit about diesel common rail system (Denso, but bosch should be similar).

Best regards,

Ben

 

Offline luky315Topic starter

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2015, 10:00:35 am »
I need informations about the input characteristics (Impedance, Bandwidth, protection circuit) from the analog inputs from different ECUs.
I have a Bosch ECU with approximately 800k input resistance and I wonder if other ECUs have similar specs.
Unfortunately I don't have informations on the analog input bandwith.
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2015, 08:43:16 am »
Forget tuning individual injections (3 to 10 per cycle); it's a piezo and the whole system is lubrificated/cooled by the fuel. Don't touch this, I dare not on a ship sized one (many orders more tolerant and resistant) so a car sized one is like modding a Swiss watch with a claw hammer.
If the engine is stock, modding it like you imply can only yield results within the tolerance - if you are lucky - 5% max. Anything more is fantasy, as a colleague of mine discovered when he destroyed litteraly every part of his engine upstream of the clutch on his Ford Galaxy; the specialised garage in Luxemburg told him to leave at the lowest level, he turned the nob to 11 and nuked it in 4 months.
But that does not mean that your idea could not have uses in "overall" management: if you change the airbox, filter, booster pump, intercooler etc... The ECU might not "understand" the implications so modding the values of airflow, heat etc it gets to make work in it's standard tune but at a higher power level might be needed / work.
But beware, more and more sensors are digital... So just amplification both positive & negative is going to do bugger all in your engine's Unicorn Output.

And a last thing, that most people forget: a 10% change in Hp implies modifying the cooling, if you don't, your engine will heat soak and reduce it's lifespan. This does not matter if you reside in Iceland.
I'm electronically illiterate
 

Online mikerj

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #66 on: February 27, 2015, 04:41:28 pm »
And a last thing, that most people forget: a 10% change in Hp implies modifying the cooling, if you don't, your engine will heat soak and reduce it's lifespan. This does not matter if you reside in Iceland.

Possibly true if you live somewhere like Arizona and you already have marginal cooling,  but most cooling systems should easily cope with an extra 10% increase in power.  Don't forget that engines are very rarely run continuously at full output for extended periods.

Also "heat soak" seems to be the most misused and misunderstood term ever.  People now commonly use this term when they really mean to say "overheating" or "getting hotter" but want to make it sound more technical and important.  Heat soak is a very specific phenomenon in engine cooling systems whereby the temperature increases when the engine is switched off due to lack of coolant circulation.
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #67 on: February 27, 2015, 06:24:08 pm »
And a last thing, that most people forget: a 10% change in Hp implies modifying the cooling, if you don't, your engine will heat soak and reduce it's lifespan. This does not matter if you reside in Iceland.

Possibly true if you live somewhere like Arizona and you already have marginal cooling,  but most cooling systems should easily cope with an extra 10% increase in power.  Don't forget that engines are very rarely run continuously at full output for extended periods.

Also "heat soak" seems to be the most misused and misunderstood term ever.  People now commonly use this term when they really mean to say "overheating" or "getting hotter" but want to make it sound more technical and important.  Heat soak is a very specific phenomenon in engine cooling systems whereby the temperature increases when the engine is switched off due to lack of coolant circulation.
If you get a real 10% across the range (not just peak), on modern engines, you might be getting too near tolerance.
10% more HP might mean anything from 12 to 25% more heat...

It's also a big differentiator between diesel and gasoline engines:
- Gasoline engines go on and off the boost, sot the intercooler (on normal street cars) acts more like a air cooled heat sink.
- On diesels, boost is always on (in some cases, no turbo, no start) so the intercooler is a constant radiator.
On bigger engines, there's a whole method to the madness of getting a clean start without the engine surging, the turbo going nuts and having a runaway...

But

« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 06:27:44 pm by gildasd »
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Offline dtnicholls

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #68 on: March 18, 2015, 09:44:34 am »
There is basically no difference between manipulating the engine map inside the ECU or "outside". The outcome is the same: more fuel in the cylinder. And as long as we stay in a reasonable range (10-25%), there is no problem with the air mixture. A diesel engine works with excess air (not like a petrol engine with Lambda = 1). And we have another mechanism working for us: More burned fuel means more exhaust which is driving the the turbocharger. And we can also manipulate the MAP-Sensor (Manifold-Absolute-Pressure).
A lot of commercial tuning Boxes work this way.
As I wrote earlier: You DONT raise the pressure all the time. Just when a "power boost" is needed.
Of course you increase the mechanical stress on all components when using the extra power. If you don't want one: fine. Your choice.
I am still looking for car enthusiasts willing and able to help with the software and test subjects.

fully agree , your statements are  100% valid for diesels with electronically controlled rotary injection pumps and pressure driven injectors (single pilot injection and the main injection) ... those engines got few variables - air flow, boost , amount of fuel to be injected... very simple, elegant and easy to tune engines...... but please stop convincing anyone that it's the same for modern common rail engines ... just have a look at the 3rd generation of VW diesels, apart from the shitload of sensors and way too complicated engine.... those even got an intake manifold flap - something seen on petrol engines only before.

So that last part isn't quite right... my 93 vintage 2LTE surf has a throttle body, it's used mostly for EGR but also to help with smoothing out startup and shutdown.

At the end of the day, the OP is just doing an open source version of the DP Chip and many others. Nothing wrong with that.

I wouldn't be messing about with fuel pressures too much though, particularly peak pressure. That really needs to stay at factory. Also, there are risks to altering fuel volume without also adjusting timing...
 

Offline brainwash

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2016, 11:56:10 am »
Resurrecting this old topic since it makes more sense than starting a new topic.
First off, I'm running such a box on a 2008 VW engine (gen 3?) and it does something, for better or worse. I've also found at least one scientific paper and several other source, linked in my post:
http://hackcorrelation.blogspot.de/2016/04/racechip-tuning-box-part-2-reverse.html

Second, having an open-source design for this makes a lot of sense. For the particular numbers, I at least know what my car is able to handle and a standard tuning box does not allow me the necessary flexibility.

The fail-safe is that the engine is run with reduced power if an abnormality is detected - a failsafe ECU curve. Search the web for SSP 350 and SSP 351 for an explanation from the source.

Third, I've been using the box for almost a year, noting the improvements and deteriorations in various fields: economy, power, torque, noise and vibrations. Also the automatic gearbox shifting behavior is altered by this, not sure exactly by which mechanism.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2016, 01:22:19 pm »
and don't forget ... in EU any modification to the engine which will result in non compliance to regulations is illegal. so you can only tune your engine within boundaries set by allowed emissions and noise levels.

Actually, I would say that any manufacturer unapproved mod is going to make you fail the mandatory technical check simply by the mere presence of the box/"chip" in the car, making it defacto illegal. Of course, if the engine exceeds the exhaust emission limits during the check above or gets you stopped by cops because of excessive noise thanks to the badly bungled ("tuned") settings, that's yet another matter.

I certainly wouldn't tinker with this stuff on a car that I have the intention to use in normal traffic and thus must be kept road legal unless you like living on the edge (I heard the fines in Austria are quite hefty!).  Outside of that - racing specials, various experimental vehicles not meant to be driven on public roads, etc. - have your fun :)

It is actually cool that there are people tinkering with this stuff, proving that even a modern engine is not running on black magic requiring only expensive manufacturer's service and know-how. Just keep it away from public roads, OK?


« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 01:27:22 pm by janoc »
 

Offline SaabFAN

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2016, 02:30:11 pm »
If you do something to your car in Germany with stuff that has no universal operating permit (Allgemeine Betriebserlaubnis), you have to let the TÜV (an agency that checks if a car meets the requirements to be road-legal) check your modification.
If the engineers there say everything is okay, it gets entered into papers of your car and is therefore road-legal.
At least that's how several people in school had to do to make their tuned up scooters legal :)

Offline brainwash

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2016, 02:58:29 pm »
AFAIK the tuning box I have has the necessary regulations, but I'm not sure ho w well recognized they are. Also not sure what happens in case of an accident (insurance, police, etc.) but it can probably be debated in court.
Regarding road-worthy and emissions I would just say this stuff is for track/private use only otherwise there'll be a gajilion anal people against, just for the sake of argument. This is being done all the time (also discussed on German forums), there is at least a defcon talk on this topic and it's really related to electronics more than to any other topic.

This is just turning into a standard debate topic: loud music, lipo batteries, cheap multimeters, arduino clones, drone registration, electronic cigarettes - with the SNR being under 10%.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2016, 06:43:29 pm »
If you do something to your car in Germany with stuff that has no universal operating permit (Allgemeine Betriebserlaubnis), you have to let the TÜV (an agency that checks if a car meets the requirements to be road-legal) check your modification.
If the engineers there say everything is okay, it gets entered into papers of your car and is therefore road-legal.
At least that's how several people in school had to do to make their tuned up scooters legal :)

I think that is pretty much universal regulation across Europe. If the gizmo isn't manufacturer-approved or doesn't have a relevant certificate/permit, it is illegal to install in the car. It is a fairly common reason to get a fine and have the car declared not roadworthy by the police - cheap aftermarket day lights, various spoilers, etc. without the required paperwork. If you get stopped by cops and they see something on the car that is obviously non-stock, they will be asking for those papers.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2016, 06:48:29 pm »
AFAIK the tuning box I have has the necessary regulations, but I'm not sure ho w well recognized they are. Also not sure what happens in case of an accident (insurance, police, etc.) but it can probably be debated in court.

I believe there is some sort of international agreement the car accessories have to follow - if the manufacturer provides the paperwork in accordance with it, then it should be recognized and you don't have to have extra testing done, only may have to have it recorded in your car papers. But YMMV ...

 


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