Author Topic: Using an Oscilloscope  (Read 20514 times)

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Offline EricaTopic starter

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Using an Oscilloscope
« on: May 06, 2015, 10:29:20 am »
Hello

I'm trying to find a high impedance audio signal on a telephone line.

Can someone point out how to do this using an oscilloscope?

Many thanks.
E
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2015, 10:45:43 am »
Hello

I'm trying to find a high impedance audio signal on a telephone line.

Can someone point out how to do this using an oscilloscope?

"Very carefully".

Under no circumstances should you connect the 'scope directly to the lines. Magic smoke will escape.

It's illegal to do but I'm sure you'll find something if you google images of "telephone wire tap circuit".
 

Offline EricaTopic starter

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2015, 10:50:01 am »
A thread author should have the right to delete any post in their thread.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2015, 11:09:59 am »
A thread author should have the right to delete any post in their thread.

a) Nope.
b) Can we assume you didn't go to google images and type "telephone wire tap circuit"? In that case what do you expect from people here?
 

Offline EricaTopic starter

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2015, 11:15:39 am »
I did and I see nothing
Instead I googled "oscilloscope telephone line"
I found this http://www.edaboard.com/thread45343.html
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2015, 12:29:22 pm »
I did and I see nothing

In that case you're in big danger. Google is blocking search results to your computer based on keywords like "wire tap". They're probably watching this forum as well.

It may already be too late to do anything except go into hiding.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2015, 12:51:02 pm »
Hello

I'm trying to find a high impedance audio signal on a telephone line.

Can someone point out how to do this using an oscilloscope?

Many thanks.
E

You'll find some good suggestions here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/telephone-eavesdropping/msg667646/#msg667646

Oh, wait a minute, the OP has the same name! Now there's a turnout for the books! (Not)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline nanofrog

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2015, 02:40:33 pm »
Why not start with the basics? The Oscilloscope Tutorial page would be of real use (multiple primers in here that are well worth the effort).  :)

I'd recommend starting with the XYZ's of Oscilloscopes, followed by the one on probes.   ;)
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2015, 02:55:43 pm »
I made a little device some time ago when trying to look at the ADSL signal,it was just a bit of vero board with a telephone plug and a socket on it and 2 small capacitors to to take the sample with, the isolated the scope from the phone line, I did not get very much on the ADSL signal but the audio showed quite well. I just tried to find the thing to photo but it is now lost in all my other junk if I find it I will post a picture but it's nor really needed as it is so simple.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2015, 04:13:34 pm »
I made a little device some time ago when trying to look at the ADSL signal,it was just a bit of vero board with a telephone plug and a socket on it and 2 small capacitors to to take the sample with, the isolated the scope from the phone line,

So ... a bit like the first image I get when I type "telephone wire tap circuit" into google images.



 

Offline paulie

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2015, 04:27:39 pm »
Can somebody explain what those yellow squares are in everybody's avatar? How come Blueskull gets 4 and me and Fungus only 2? Are we second rate citizens? Or related to number of times you say "shit"?
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2015, 05:45:29 pm »
Post counter.....

As to the OP, connecting a scope direct to the phone lines, as discovered, means you find out the phone line has -48V on the one leg when on hook, and around -7 to -15V when the phone is off the hook and acting like a roughly 600R load.

If you want to see what is on the line with the scope you need to use 2 capacitors ( any value from around 47n to 1uF at a voltage from 160V to 400V) in series with the probe input and the probe earth . that way you only will get the Ac signals on the line, not the standing DC bias voltage.

That way when the phone is on the hook, you should see only a small amount of noise on the line, mostly AC mains induced noise from the long line to the exchange. You might also see some what looks like broadband noise from your ADSL connection, or bleedthrough from the other ADSL connections that share the trunk cable to your local exchange and the DSLAM in the street by it.

Any signal on it that looks like room noise would be from what is called an infinity bug, which will be picking up the room noise, using a sensitive microphone in the phone base. It typically is done with a module added to the phone, as the mic needs to be very sensitive, which the phone microphone and ringer is not.

Typically though the 3 letter agencies do not tap phones, they prefer other methods, like using a separate microphone placed secretly in the room, and by using the thing you all have, a mobile phone, which has a very sensitive microphone already and decent DSP, for use in the hands free mode.
 

Offline EricaTopic starter

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2015, 05:53:13 pm »
Post counter.....

As to the OP, connecting a scope direct to the phone lines, as discovered, means you find out the phone line has -48V on the one leg when on hook, and around -7 to -15V when the phone is off the hook and acting like a roughly 600R load.

If you want to see what is on the line with the scope you need to use 2 capacitors ( any value from around 47n to 1uF at a voltage from 160V to 400V) in series with the probe input and the probe earth . that way you only will get the Ac signals on the line, not the standing DC bias voltage.

Judging from your response you have read my other thread.
When I connected the scope to the telephone line , the phone stopped working. A poster mentioned that I need a diffential scope. Is that correct?

Can you show me some images of what this capacitor connection should look like. I don't know what a capacitor is or does.

I am maybe out of my league.
 

Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2015, 05:58:21 pm »
A poster mentioned that I need a diffential scope. Is that correct?

If your scope has more than one channel (it should if I remember the model correctly) you can use 2 channels to probe the signal. Clip the 2 ground leads together but don't connect them to anything else. Use the 2 probe tips to connect to the area of interest and set the scope so that the channels are added and invert one channel. There you have your differential probe.
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Offline EricaTopic starter

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2015, 06:00:09 pm »
A poster mentioned that I need a diffential scope. Is that correct?

If your scope has more than one channel (it should if I remember the model correctly) you can use 2 channels to probe the signal. Clip the 2 ground leads together but don't connect them to anything else. Use the 2 probe tips to connect to the area of interest and set the scope so that the channels are added and invert one channel. There you have your differential probe.

Awesome!
 

Offline EricaTopic starter

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2015, 06:01:52 pm »
Why do I need to connect capacitors to take out the DC signal. Can't I just put the scope into AC coupling mode to get AC only?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 06:06:30 pm by Erica »
 

Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2015, 06:06:35 pm »
Awesome!

Also, set the inputs to AC coupling and the input attenuators the same on both channels.
Probably an unnecessary comment for most, but you seem to be a beginner with a scope  ;)
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Offline EricaTopic starter

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2015, 06:12:29 pm »
Awesome!

Also, set the inputs to AC coupling and the input attenuators the same on both channels.
Probably an unnecessary comment for most, but you seem to be a beginner with a scope  ;)

Thanks.
So this will measure AC only and ignore the DC component?

Do you think 100x probes may be better able to detect the weak signal?
 

Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2015, 06:15:55 pm »
So this will measure AC only and ignore the DC component?

Yes, and because the DC component is a lot larger than the AC you are looking for it is impossible to see the AC component with the input dividers set to a level that you can display the DC.

Quote
Do you think 100x probes may be better able to detect the weak signal?

Why would you attenuate the signal 100x when looking for small signals? That makes no sense.
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Offline paulie

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2015, 06:16:59 pm »
Post counter.....

Can't be total count because Blueskull had very few but lots of squares compared to me and Fungus. Must be some kind of 24 hr or so  average? I wonder if there's an explanation somewhere?

ps. The more "x"s in a probe the less sensitive. IE 1x better for weak signals than 10x. 100x would be virtually useless for measuring microvolt levels.
 

Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2015, 06:19:03 pm »
Can't be total count because Blueskull had very few but lots of squares compared to me and Fungus. Must be some kind of 24 hr or so  average? I wonder if there's an explanation somewhere?

He's a supporter as you can see, that gets you 4 immediately. I lost one when I stopped supporting via the forum and started using patreon. I don't care :P
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Offline paulie

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2015, 06:25:13 pm »
He's a supporter as you can see, that gets you 4 immediately. I lost one when I stopped supporting via the forum and started using patreon. I don't care :P

So a supporter gets more? What about athletic supporter? So not related to post count? Or to both? The mystery deepens.
 

Offline EricaTopic starter

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2015, 06:25:45 pm »
ps. The more "x"s in a probe the less sensitive. IE 1x better for weak signals than 10x. 100x would be virtually useless for measuring microvolt levels.

Now I'm confused.
http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/t_and_m/oscilloscope/oscilloscope-probes.php
That site says:
"To enable better accuracy to be achieved higher levels of impedance are required."

When I read what they say about 10 and 100x probes I get the impression that more x's mean better accuracy.
 

Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2015, 06:26:31 pm »
So a supporter gets more? What about athletic supporter? So not related to post count? Or to both? The mystery deepens.

Non-supporter: Based on post count
Supporter: 4

Don't make it more difficult than it is...
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Offline EricaTopic starter

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Re: Using an Oscilloscope
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2015, 06:27:38 pm »
10x probes are fine, and differential is not needed. You need 2 caps for two signal lines, and 2 probes on 2 caps. Use the math function built in the scope to see differential waveform. Generally, we do not recommend the use of math subtract for high speed signal, but for audio frequency, it is more than enough.

The 2 external caps are not mandatory.

If you observe too much common mode noise, try to add a capacitive 1:1 divider between signal lines, and connect the center tap to scope ground.

I'm sorry but I have no idea what this all means!
 


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