Power cut in Spain and Portugal

[TimFox]

I think there is a simpler motivation; skewing the economics allows for plenty of rent seeking.

For example emission of fossil carbon dioxide could be modeled as a tort, where a Pigouvian tax could be used as an efficient remedy, but instead we get cap-and-trade with its infinite possibilities of rent seeking.  I was looking over the current Canadian "carbon tax" and it is not.

Had to look up "Pigouvian/Pigovian tax"! It can also be considered as an attempt to avoid The Tragedy of the Commons.

Either way, the current carbon taxes are no more than greenwashing, not only because they allow the polluter to continue polluting, but also because there is no way of ensuring the "benefits" aren't being sold multiple times to multiple companies.

Joseph Stiglitz' recent book (The Road to Freedom, Economics and the Good Society Norton 2024) discusses Pigovian taxes as a solution for the Tragedy of the Commons.  He prefers regulation for the traditional problem and current environmental problems.

[David Hess]

I think there is a simpler motivation; skewing the economics allows for plenty of rent seeking.

For example emission of fossil carbon dioxide could be modeled as a tort, where a Pigouvian tax could be used as an efficient remedy, but instead we get cap-and-trade with its infinite possibilities of rent seeking.  I was looking over the current Canadian "carbon tax" and it is not.

Had to look up "Pigouvian/Pigovian tax"! It can also be considered as an attempt to avoid The Tragedy of the Commons.

Either way, the current carbon taxes are no more than greenwashing, not only because they allow the polluter to continue polluting, but also because there is no way of ensuring the "benefits" aren't being sold multiple times to multiple companies.

Joseph Stiglitz' recent book (The Road to Freedom, Economics and the Good Society Norton 2024) discusses Pigovian taxes as a solution for the Tragedy of the Commons.  He prefers regulation for the traditional problem and current environmental problems.

David Friedman discusses Pigovian taxes as a remedy for negative externalities which would be inefficiency handled through torts in court.  Dilute pollution is an example where it would be irrational for any individual to seek compensation, but a tax actually fits.  In my view there is no difference, so for instance taxes on income treat income (and profits) as a negative externality which must be minimized and punished.

tggzzz seems to be describing cap-and-trade, so I do not understand his point.  An economic solution like a Pigovian tax makes sure that if we must pollute, we only do so where it provides the greatest benefit, rather than the whims of a politician seeking rents.

[tggzzz]

I think there is a simpler motivation; skewing the economics allows for plenty of rent seeking.

For example emission of fossil carbon dioxide could be modeled as a tort, where a Pigouvian tax could be used as an efficient remedy, but instead we get cap-and-trade with its infinite possibilities of rent seeking.  I was looking over the current Canadian "carbon tax" and it is not.

Had to look up "Pigouvian/Pigovian tax"! It can also be considered as an attempt to avoid The Tragedy of the Commons.

Either way, the current carbon taxes are no more than greenwashing, not only because they allow the polluter to continue polluting, but also because there is no way of ensuring the "benefits" aren't being sold multiple times to multiple companies.

Joseph Stiglitz' recent book (The Road to Freedom, Economics and the Good Society Norton 2024) discusses Pigovian taxes as a solution for the Tragedy of the Commons.  He prefers regulation for the traditional problem and current environmental problems.

David Friedman discusses Pigovian taxes as a remedy for negative externalities which would be inefficiency handled through torts in court.  Dilute pollution is an example where it would be irrational for any individual to seek compensation, but a tax actually fits.  In my view there is no difference, so for instance taxes on income treat income (and profits) as a negative externality which must be minimized and punished.

tggzzz seems to be describing cap-and-trade, so I do not understand his point.  An economic solution like a Pigovian tax makes sure that if we must pollute, we only do so where it provides the greatest benefit, rather than the whims of a politician seeking rents.

I was thinking, loosely, of the various schemes that enable a polluter to buy some.form of permit with the claim that it will be used to avoid someone else  polluting somewhere else. Typically that is something more more or less unverifiable, such as replacing a third world pollution source with a less polluting source.

Compared.with such "trades", legal regulation seems simpler and more direct, and less subject to fraud. But not without lesser imperfections, of course.

[tatel]

Allow me to share some observations on the "green renewable" subject. The fundamental mistake of radical proponents of "green renewables" lies in extrapolating the proven benefits of these technologies in limited contexts to all scales and applications. (...)

Of course you are allowed to make observations. But I simply can't agree on that.

So Spain is getting rid of any nuclear power. Still, it seems we have about 80 nuclear reactors equivalent generation capability. Let's say, 50-50% wind and PV. Not counting hydro and combined cycle. That has so many advantages, first one, in our electricity bill, so much lower, it seems, than in the rest of Europe, that Spain's numbers are now better than Germany's. What? I would have said, all of my life, that would be impossible. So please give me a huge pinch, because I must be dreaming. I guess you can easily understand that, in these conditions, I'm not very much inclined to take your ominous warnings as something I should care about. Sorry.

We don't know yet what caused the outage. IMO this point is enough to make your speculations, well, just speculations. I beg your pardon for considering your speculations as such.

Perhaps the problem was, we were producing too much. Well, I guess that wouldn't be very difficult to resolve. The point about lack of inertia implying the need to waste some of the output of inverters, would be almost moot if there's so much excess generation capability, I think.

I also think, having so much generation ability, from mainly two different sources, in such a way that, when there's not enough sun, we will probably have enough wind, and viceversa, will probably make these huge amonts of storage, estimated by pro-nuclear guys, unnecessary. I think  a 10% of these guesstimations would, quite probably, be enough. Perhaps even less, since we still also have good amount of other, more traditional, power sources, like hydro and combined cycle. I'm saying that, not because I would be an expert on this matter, but because I'm able to detect a rant on first sight.

And you guys are ranting.

After what Siwastaja mentioned, perhaps we suffered sabotage, either by our own oligarchs, or by martians. IMO that would be worse than just excess generation capability. But that wouldn't be a technical problem affecting the feasibility to get rid of NPP's, so it should be out of the discussion until proven.

[radiolistener]

So Spain is getting rid of any nuclear power.

It would be interesting to know how the phase-out of nuclear energy has affected electricity/fuel prices, living standards, and the overall economy in Spain.

[dietert1]

You can take Germany as an example, where all nuclear plants have already been shut down. As far as i understand the confrontation with Russia caused much more trouble, but in the end it may speed up the necessary transitions. I think everybody is surprised by how fast renewables have been growing. I still remember experts saying that PV will never contribute more than 5 %.
For the time being electricity for the private consumer is very expensive, about 0.70 €/kWh including VAT (!!) and as far as i understand a transition to 80 % renewables is under way until 2035. There exist laws to shutdown all coal power plants until 2035. It's a process to be checked at multiple revision dates.
Of course we don't know yet when and how a similar transition will be possible for private transportation. The EU wants it but it affects the consumer side of the system. For any democratic government it's easier to modify the supply side.

Regards, Dieter

[tszaboo]

You can take Germany as an example, where all nuclear plants have already been shut down. As far as i understand the confrontation with Russia caused much more trouble, but in the end it may speed up the necessary transitions. I think everybody is surprised by how fast renewables have been growing. I still remember experts saying that PV will never contribute more than 5 %.
For the time being electricity for the private consumer is very expensive, about 0.70 €/kWh including VAT (!!) and as far as i understand a transition to 80 % renewables is under way until 2035. There exist laws to shutdown all coal power plants until 2035. It's a process to be checked at multiple revision dates.
Of course we don't know yet when and how a similar transition will be possible for private transportation. The EU wants it but it affects the consumer side of the system. For any democratic government it's easier to modify the supply side.

Regards, Dieter

It's very difficult to make any conclusion from the German electricity price because it is heavily taxxed and they decided that chaos and shotgun approach is the best they can do. For example the government would finance 100% cost of some solar installations like balkonkraftwerk. Up to 500EUR and 800W. Which meant that they started making 800W systems for exactly 500EUR. While two 400W panels cost 60EUR and a 800W inverter is like a 100EUR from Hoymilles. So the government stepping in resulted systems that are about twice as expensive as they could be.
When you take away the possibility to make rational decisions from the market, the market will yield stupid solutions. And because the decision is made by a committee who is spending someone else money, nobody cares.

[dietert1]

When the management of BP got the first predictions over global heating about 40 years ago (!!) they decided that there was no urgent need to act. If somebody keeps that attitude nowadays, that's completely stupid. Meanwhile we got all the scientific evidence that those predictions are coming true - and much faster than expected. Read the UN climate reports!
If you read about the payments the German government agreed to get rid of nuclear and coal, it appears more like a buy-out. When we got our first PV systems in 2008, we had a price guarantee of about 45 cents/kWh for 20 years with expected break-even after about 10 years. At the time our tax advisor opposed buying PV equipment. His argument apart from the low return: In case of an emergency the government may "steal" our PV equipment. Now we are selling below market price.

Regards, Dieter

[tatel]

It would be interesting to know how the phase-out of nuclear energy has affected electricity/fuel prices, living standards, and the overall economy in Spain.

I enjoy what is called "last resort rate", which is available for all people over certain age, or under some economic condition, provided their consumption is under certain level, which I don't remember. Let's say, mosts persons in retirement can have it.

Speaking from memory, it was like 0.13 € kW/h last time I checked. Over that, you have to add many sorts of taxes, nuclear moratory, transportation fees, counter renting (you can't own these new, compulsory electricity counters), and on and on... If your consumption is carefully controlled, you can easily find yourself paying more for all that, than for the electricity itself.

Usual rates are higher, of course, All rates go through the roof when combined cycle has to get into the mix. There is some rule about all electricity being sold at the price given by the most expensive source.

Last time that combined cycle screwed us was about two or three years ago IIRC. After that, we (and Portugal) got an exemption from EU rules that apply in the rest of our partners, based over the fact that, from the point of view of energy, the iberian peninsula is something like an energy island. The effect of the new, iberian rules, was noticed in our pockets immediately.

See: https://www-eltiempo-es.translate.goog/noticias/que-es-una-isla-energetica-el-ejemplo-de-espana-y-portugal?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Anyway, energy providers have, generally speaking, increased their profit at least a 50%, and some more than doubled it over last year, after information appeared after the outage. They are laughing all the way to the bank,

To know more, you could search by yourself in these links:

https://www.endesa.com/en
https://www.iberdrola.es/en/

About living standards, etc, let me say: phasing nuclear didn't get us into the Stone Age, as was predicted to us when we were fighting against Lemoniz and other NPPs. And has, quite probably, spared us some radioactive incidents that were not so unusual in the past decades, and the need to care for tons of spent nuclear fuel, for some hundreds of years. Not to mention, we import less uranium than before.

Hope this helps

[guenthert]

[..]
For the time being electricity for the private consumer is very expensive, about 0.70 €/kWh including VAT (!!) and as far as i understand a transition to 80 % renewables is under way until 2035.
[..]

Nah, it's about half as much (at least here in Lower Saxony).

   Not intending to pick on dietert1, the sentiment that electricity is very expensive is common and compared to other industrial countries prices are high (but only some 30% more than e.g. in France with its high share of energy coming from nuclear reactors).  From personal experience, I don't lose sleep over my electricity bill, it's currently some €36/month (with the default plan offered by my local utilities), i.e. less than what I paid in Silicon Valley (probably because of the older, energy wasting appliances there and the fridge of a size you could hide the corpses of a whole family in).
   I'd say, unless you have an electric vehicle, it's a non-issue for private persons.  If you operate an aluminum smeltering oven however ...

[radiolistener]

and as far as i understand a transition to 80 % renewables is under way until 2035

It appears that the EU may be facing a significant population reduction over the next decade. I'm not certain what the driving factor will be - perhaps war? If that’s the case, electricity demand would likely drop substantially, rendering much of the existing generation capacity redundant - similar to what occurred in my country after "green tariff" law (due to all industrial sectors, such as electronics, mechanical engineering, and materials science were shut down), but the prices will continue rise up. In that context, the current developments of "renewables" start to make more sense - it may help to accelerate the disintegration and collapse of the economic.

[tatel]

Precarity.

My grandfathers and fathers where sure to have a job for life, provided they were good workers, and even then, it was quite easy to get a new job... until the 80s.

Then they were astonished looking at the massive firings that made most of the news at that time. Not a problem for an engineer, even if father of four children. But a real problem for most of the people.

At my classroom, we were 40-45 kids, And there were four classrooms for each level. Now there are 15-20 kids, and even less in some parts of the country, and just one classroom for each level. And many of the schools are closed now.

It has been like that for decades. When we, old decrepit baby boomers, will go two meters under, there will be no replacement, unless migration fills the void. Which is what is happening in Spain. Our population growth is based on inmigration.

If you didn't have a "secure" job, to get a bank willing to give you a mortage, was a very difficult task. If you think there's a high probability you could became unemployed, you don't want to have children. Particularly if your expectations about living standard increased over what was usual in Franco's times.

So you can blame average people for being too greedy. But that same average people will have children as usual, if they get the feeling future is minimally secure. Blame corporative beancounters and rent seeking oligarchs instead

[David Hess]

...

tggzzz seems to be describing cap-and-trade, so I do not understand his point.  An economic solution like a Pigovian tax makes sure that if we must pollute, we only do so where it provides the greatest benefit, rather than the whims of a politician seeking rents.

I was thinking, loosely, of the various schemes that enable a polluter to buy some.form of permit with the claim that it will be used to avoid someone else  polluting somewhere else. Typically that is something more more or less unverifiable, such as replacing a third world pollution source with a less polluting source.

That is cap-and-trade, with politicians picking favorites.

Compared.with such "trades", legal regulation seems simpler and more direct, and less subject to fraud. But not without lesser imperfections, of course.

Rent seeking is a big imperfection.

So Spain is getting rid of any nuclear power.

Spain is outsourcing their nuclear power and baseload capacity to France.

[dietert1]

[..]
For the time being electricity for the private consumer is very expensive, about 0.70 €/kWh including VAT (!!) and as far as i understand a transition to 80 % renewables is under way until 2035.
[..]

Nah, it's about half as much (at least here in Lower Saxony).

   Not intending to pick on dietert1, the sentiment that electricity is very expensive is common and compared to other industrial countries prices are high (but only some 30% more than e.g. in France with its high share of energy coming from nuclear reactors).  From personal experience, I don't lose sleep over my electricity bill, it's currently some €36/month (with the default plan offered by my local utilities), i.e. less than what I paid in Silicon Valley (probably because of the older, energy wasting appliances there and the fridge of a size you could hide the corpses of a whole family in).
   I'd say, unless you have an electric vehicle, it's a non-issue for private persons.  If you operate an aluminum smeltering oven however ...

@ guenthert: Prices are high and there seem to be large price differences. That 70 cents/kWh price i quoted was what i remembered from our last electricity bill. It included three months of 2023 and the exact number was 0,5761 €/kWh + 19 % VAT = 0,69 €/kWh. Meanwhile we pay 45,43 €/kWh + 19 % VAT = 54,06 €/kWh.

Regards, Dietert

[tggzzz]

...

tggzzz seems to be describing cap-and-trade, so I do not understand his point.  An economic solution like a Pigovian tax makes sure that if we must pollute, we only do so where it provides the greatest benefit, rather than the whims of a politician seeking rents.

I was thinking, loosely, of the various schemes that enable a polluter to buy some.form of permit with the claim that it will be used to avoid someone else  polluting somewhere else. Typically that is something more more or less unverifiable, such as replacing a third world pollution source with a less polluting source.

That is cap-and-trade, with politicians picking favorites.

Compared.with such "trades", legal regulation seems simpler and more direct, and less subject to fraud. But not without lesser imperfections, of course.

Rent seeking is a big imperfection.

I'm not convinced that is rent seeking.

I'm slowly reading[1] Piketty's "Capital in the 21st Century", which argues that the rate of capital return in developed countries is persistently greater than the rate of economic growth, and that this will cause wealth inequality to increase in the future.

He makes a good and interesting (albeit verbose) case comparing what has happened in the past with what is happening now. Somewhat scary, because history shows politicians only react after the widespread riots/distuption.

[1] information dense, thoughtful, and a completely new subject to me

[tatel]

Here you have a very interseting interview which, to me, is probably nailing it.

Some context: Jesus Cintora is the other star of journalism in Spain that had morning, hours-lasting programs succesively on at least two private TV networks... and was fired from both because he's too much "reddish". He had to resort to Youtube to survive. Now he's back in the same government funded, public TV network, program, equally morning, hours-lasting, called 360, the same as the guy from the video posted by tv84. Both guys are now just collaborators in that program.

Antonio Turiel is an investigator for the CSIC -Centro Superior de Investigaciones Científicas. While he works mainly on ocenic climate change, it seems to be true that he's warning about instability in the grid since a couple of years. There are some videos on YT, not just since the blackout. Of course, after the blackout, there have been much more appearances of this guy in many podcasts, etc.

My takeaways:

1) There was instability in the european grid, after reports from an US non-profit foundation, that I think have been mentioned here before. It seems the Netherland were the worst affected area but they recovered after iberian grid was diconnected.

2) Neither EU nor Spanish law compel energy providers to have safeguards as flywheels, etc, in the case of renewables. So, it's not that energy providers trust in praying, but that they know they can't be legally blamed.

3) Long time engineers from REE -Red Electrica Española- that warned about this danger, were put into retirement.

4) A narrative is being created, about this being a grid problem, not a power plant problem. Se the neccesary investment to solve this will be assumed by governments, not energy providers.

5) Oligarchs will be happy, politicians will not be pressed, and, somehow, average people will pay for it all

Interview is in castilian language, but you can easily get automatically translated, english subtitles that, I would say, are about 90% good, but they get worse towards the end.

First 12 minutes are about capitalism and whatnot. The mandanga begins at the 12:08 mark. Most of the meat is already minced at about 25:00. The interview remained really interesting to me until about 50:00

Heres the link:

[Tation]

Spain is outsourcing their nuclear power and baseload capacity to France.

The capacity of the link between Spain and France (2.8 GW) is approx. 1/7 of Spain's base demand (~20 GW)... so, at best, they are outsourcing s small fraction of something.

Also, such link works in one direction by day, in the other by night, so I think that a better description is that Spain is using the French grid as a battery.

[Ranayna]

[..]
For the time being electricity for the private consumer is very expensive, about 0.70 €/kWh including VAT (!!) and as far as i understand a transition to 80 % renewables is under way until 2035.
[..]

Nah, it's about half as much (at least here in Lower Saxony).

   Not intending to pick on dietert1, the sentiment that electricity is very expensive is common and compared to other industrial countries prices are high (but only some 30% more than e.g. in France with its high share of energy coming from nuclear reactors).  From personal experience, I don't lose sleep over my electricity bill, it's currently some €36/month (with the default plan offered by my local utilities), i.e. less than what I paid in Silicon Valley (probably because of the older, energy wasting appliances there and the fridge of a size you could hide the corpses of a whole family in).
   I'd say, unless you have an electric vehicle, it's a non-issue for private persons.  If you operate an aluminum smeltering oven however ...

@ guenthert: Prices are high and there seem to be large price differences. That 70 cents/kWh price i quoted was what i remembered from our last electricity bill. It included three months of 2023 and the exact number was 0,5761 €/kWh + 19 % VAT = 0,69 €/kWh. Meanwhile we pay 45,43 €/kWh + 19 % VAT = 54,06 €/kWh.

Regards, Dietert

Then you were in the "Grundversorgung" offered by your local energy company. These prices were indeed in many cases predatory. There is no other word for that.
That happened mainly if the provider you had went bankrupt, which happened to several smaller providers when the prices at the exchange soared and the provider had bad contracts itself.

That is still a bloody expensive price that you have. Are you by chance in southern germany? There are certain political decisions that cause higher prices in southern germany. In northern germany prices below 30 cents are common. Or you are still in "Grundversorgung" and you need to contact your provider ASAP for a new contract.

[dietert1]

Yes, we are in BW and our provider is Stadtwerke. Anyway, my remarks were meant as an example what it may take to get rid of nuclear and coal. The green transition is expensive, but we can pay. Those who are going out of business receive large pay-offs in order to avoid civil and/or media wars. The video posted above by tatel is revealing.

Regards, Dieter

[madires]

Granada substation power loss pinpointed as ground zero of Spain's blackout - https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/power-generation-loss-spains-blackout-started-granada-badajoz-seville-2025-05-14/

[tatel]

Hmmm... I'm not trusting Reuters so much, and any politician, even less.

After that guy Turiel, to have the needed stability in the grid will mean a big inversion. I'm trying to make that add up with the statements about inverters being able to give that stability.

Would more modern inverters needed? Or would be it like, upgrading a firmware? What about hardware/software cost?

What could be the cost of energy not dumped into the grid?

[David Hess]

After that guy Turiel, to have the needed stability in the grid will mean a big inversion. I'm trying to make that add up with the statements about inverters being able to give that stability.

Would more modern inverters needed? Or would be it like, upgrading a firmware? What about hardware/software cost?

There would need to be some way to coordinate independent producers to moderate their output, which means a communication channel.

Now imagine someone looking to invest in grid-tied solar having an option between a "coordinated" inverter, which will cost more and produce less power by fiat, and a less expensive independent inverter which produces full power within regulatory limits.  The later will have to be prohibited, but people already illegally use cheap Chinese grid-tie inverters.

Does any jurisdiction do this yet?  I know many areas have delays of months to years for permission to connect new legal grid-tie inverters.

What could be the cost of energy not dumped into the grid?

The cost would be operating those sources below their capacity factor, which also makes nuclear power uneconomical.  When coal and natural gas plants operate below their capacity factor, their incremental costs are lower because they are not burning as much expensive fuel.  When nuclear power, solar, or wind operate below their capacity factor, it is money lost because their fuel costs are low.

[dietert1]

Yes, i was asking that too above and thought a "receive only" grid connection would be useful. Of course we are talking about large plants, like nuclear, large solar plants and windmill arrays. Maybe those already have it.
If large solar plants get supplemented by large battery storage in order to flatten the day/night cycle, the price of energy during sunshine should rise, while the price at night should drop. Total production rises, if one doesn't have to shutdown PV plants at high noon.
Anyway, we learned from that video interview with Mr. Turiel that the energy price auctions are fake but the real revenue with renewables is determined elsewhere. I'd guess a large PV plant even continues to gain while disconnected, like the nuclear and coal plants in Germany that were/will be shut down. Maybe that's the reason why they don't build storage.

Regards, Dieter

[nctnico]

After that guy Turiel, to have the needed stability in the grid will mean a big inversion. I'm trying to make that add up with the statements about inverters being able to give that stability.

Would more modern inverters needed? Or would be it like, upgrading a firmware? What about hardware/software cost?

There would need to be some way to coordinate independent producers to moderate their output, which means a communication channel.

Now imagine someone looking to invest in grid-tied solar having an option between a "coordinated" inverter, which will cost more and produce less power by fiat, and a less expensive independent inverter which produces full power within regulatory limits.  The later will have to be prohibited, but people already illegally use cheap Chinese grid-tie inverters.

Does any jurisdiction do this yet?  I know many areas have delays of months to years for permission to connect new legal grid-tie inverters.

IIRC Germany mandates some form of frequency control in grid tie inverters. IMHO that is a better option compared to a communication channel because the latter introduces all kinds of security issues. According to this article Chinese inverters are already highly suspect: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/china-installs-kill-switches-in-solar-panels-sold-to-the-west-heres-why-its-extremely-dangerous-and-how-beijing-could-trigger-a-world-war/articleshow/121217348.cms?from=mdr

This is the reason why I didn't install monitoring on my solar panel inverter but it is quite possible the inverters which do phone home can tell my inverter to shut down as well using the grid itself as a communication channel.

[tatel]

There would need to be some way to coordinate independent producers to moderate their output, which means a communication channel.

If I'm right, they already have a communication channel to each and every of those new and compulsory electricity counters installed in our homes

Now imagine someone looking to invest in grid-tied solar having an option between a "coordinated" inverter, which will cost more and produce less power by fiat, and a less expensive independent inverter which produces full power within regulatory limits.  The later will have to be prohibited, but people already illegally use cheap Chinese grid-tie inverters.

I know some renewables installer. I'll have to ask him, but I would say, rooftop installations can't use any inverter they want. Either they install the one that the energy provider likes, or you can't sell your rooftop production to the grid. I don't know if solar farms would be exempted from that rule, but if that's the case, couldn't understand why, unless we crash again against the funnel law.

The cost would be operating those sources below their capacity factor, which also makes nuclear power uneconomical.  When coal and natural gas plants operate below their capacity factor, their incremental costs are lower because they are not burning as much expensive fuel.  When nuclear power, solar, or wind operate below their capacity factor, it is money lost because their fuel costs are low.

Sorry, can't understand that. Incremental costs are lower for coal/gas because they are cheaper fuel than nuclear, but solar and wind, which are free fuels, loss money the same as nuclear?

learned from that video interview with Mr. Turiel that the energy price auctions are fake but the real revenue with renewables is determined elsewhere.

Yep, if that's true, this is really a whoring house and this should be solved ASAP. Anyway, I would like to know about, say, what % of generation capability would be lost if inverters could do that inertial stability control we were speaking about a week ago?

Last, I just got my last electricity bill. Please note that, in the last months, I got most of my appliances out, and I'm underusing this flat. However price per KW/h doesn't change for this reason. A said, this is called "last resort rate". Almost any person in retirement, or bad economic situation,  can get electricity at these rates in Spain. Here you have the attachment.