Power cut in Spain and Portugal

[Evergreen64]

I found this online about Atmospheric Induced Oscillations:

Induced Atmospheric Vibration (IAV) in high-voltage power lines refers to low-frequency oscillations (typically 0.1–10 Hz) caused by corona discharge effects near the conductors. Here’s a brief breakdown:

Cause:

When high-voltage lines operate near their corona inception threshold, ionization of surrounding air molecules occurs, creating space charges (ions and electrons).

Under certain conditions (e.g., high humidity, rough conductor surfaces), these charges interact with the electric field, generating periodic electrohydrodynamic (EHD) forces.

Mechanism:

The EHD forces induce pressure waves in the air, causing vibrations in the conductor or nearby objects (e.g., insulators).

Unlike aeolian vibration (caused by wind) or galloping (large-amplitude motion), IAV is driven purely by electrical-atmospheric coupling.

Effects:

Usually low amplitude but can contribute to fatigue over time.

May exacerbate other vibration modes or cause audible hum.

Mitigation:

Smooth conductor surfaces (e.g., polished or coated wires).

Optimized voltage gradients to minimize corona.

IAV is less common than mechanical vibrations but is studied for its unique electromechanical interactions. ...

The vibrations can lead to fatigue cracks and loosened hardware.

[timeandfrequency]

We have 57 of those (72 % of the electricity produced in France in 2023).

As it should have been with the UK.  This is what you can do, if you don't sell off all your country's critical infrastructure for a quick buck, without asking who will then put in long term investment.

Some short term decisions also took place in France a decade ago.
But luckily we could buy back our Arabelle turbines in 2024. After two years of waivering.
Those are really strategic assets.
Just look at the problems in Spain/Portugal after a half-day power cut.

[tom66]

I can't see how coronal discharge could, itself, create an "imbalance in frequency".  Frequency is a function of all of the generators on the network.  It should not be affected by the additional load caused by corona within reason.  If corona did increase substantially then potentially you could get line trips if arcing occurred? But a line should be able to trip out on the network without causing a total blackout, maybe one area will go offline but the network as a whole should survive.  This speaks to a design flaw or incompetence by the operators, or possibly some external interference like a cyberattack, that isn't currently being disclosed.  And perhaps the people disclosing the causes are speculating, maybe because they need some reason now to keep reporters happy, I fail to see how you could know if it was coronal discharge until you investigated all of the data for an incident like this which would take days.

Further, much as we do need to invest in resilience for climate change, it is hard to see how a mild April weather (Madrid temperature 20C today) could lead to this type of failure. It is not as if this was an unexpected 45C summer with lots of extra air conditioning load causing the grid to collapse as cables sagged in the heat, etc.  This seems like typical Guardian shoehorning of a subject into something that doesn't relate to it.

[David Hess]

There has been a wide spread power outage in Spain and Portugal and the explanation as to why seems a tad unusual.
They are blaming a rare atmospheric conditions of hot an cold causing "oscillations in 400KV lines" Some reports say vibrations.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c9wpq8xrvd9t?post=asset%3Addda9592-0346-4fe8-a17a-2261efc1ba5b#post

I have no idea how this could work.

That makes more sense than "vibrations caused by the weather"

I took it to mean wind induced oscillation causing flashover between conductors, or breaking a line.  This would explain the comment about a weather effect, but it has nothing to do with climate change.  The frequency part could refer to the galloping occurring at the resonate frequency of the swinging line:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conductor_gallop

Spoilers, fins, or dampeners may be added to power lines in windy areas to prevent galloping.

[PartialDischarge]

The weather all across Spain has been extremely nice and soft, the best in months and the whole network is designed to resist any kind of single failure: substations blowing, transmission lines falling...
Personally I'm highly suspicious of a hacking event due to the uniqueness of the event.

In any case it doesn't matter, the real question is: Are you prepared to live without access to your credit cards, to not having any 240V to charge phones, tables, radios.., not be able to buy fuel for your car... and for how long?

[themadhippy]

 

But a line should be able to trip out on the network without causing a total blackout, maybe one area will go offline but the network as a whole should survive.

Like the uk grid did back in 2019 after a  line got hit by lightning?

[NE666]

But a line should be able to trip out on the network without causing a total blackout, maybe one area will go offline but the network as a whole should survive.

Like the uk grid did back in 2019 after a  line got hit by lightning?

And the famous US Northeast blackout incident of Nov. 1965. Cascade failure at its finest.

[MrMobodies]

The Guardian had this explanation:

Transmitting power through wires comes with technical challenges. The air around conductors ionises, causing visible and audible electrical discharges known as corona discharges. That energy is lost. Extreme temperature variations cited by Portugal’s Redes Energéticas Nacionais can cause bigger problems by affecting metal wires at a molecular level, changing the frequency of the electrical current.

“Due to the variation of the temperature, the parameters of the conductor change slightly,” said Taco Engelaar, managing director at Neara, a software provider to energy utilities. “It creates an imbalance in the frequency.”

Once frequency drops below a certain level, power generators will automatically turn off in order to avoid overloading the grid.

Engelaar said that – if the atmospheric cause is confirmed – it would be a “pretty spectacular” wake-up call for other countries that they need to invest in resilience against climate risks.

“To see it at a national level, across two countries, I’ve never seen it in my career,” he said.


I am missing the braincells to understand this, but maybe someone else can 😀

Chinese whispers passed on by people who don't have a technical background.

Classic version was "send reinforcements we're going to advance" => "send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance".

Why are they relying on a "software provider" to give them the above answers.

Coming from someone who seems to have no education background in this sort of stuff?
https://www.linkedin.com/in/tacoengelaar/details/education/

Education

Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam (VU Amsterdam)
Master of Business Administration, Strategy and Organization
2012 - 2013

Tecnológico de Monterrey
Business Administration
2010 - 2011

Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam (VU Amsterdam)
*Bachelor of Science - BS, International Business Administration (IBA)
2007 - 2010

Université de Montpellier
French Language
2007 - 2007
Attended Institut d'Etudes Francais pour Etrangers

Erasmiaans Gymnasium
Economics and Society/Culture and Society
2001 - 2006

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* Unless it fell under his Bachelor of Science - BS.
Or maybe he was told to say it.

[David Hess]

In any case it doesn't matter, the real question is: Are you prepared to live without access to your credit cards, to not having any 240V to charge phones, tables, radios.., not be able to buy fuel for your car... and for how long?

Living in a remote area of Concord, New Hampshire, I could go at least a couple weeks with no contact and no utilities, because that happens regularly in winter anyway.  Loss of internet connectivity would be the greatest inconvenience, but I have been thinking of getting Starlink as a backup and for mobile internet access.

[floobydust]

Spain declared nation ran on 100% renewable energy on April 16. Maybe they need more hydrogen LMAO.
I kind of suspect energy politics and wondering why it's "10 days" to bring the grid back up? That's just going to cause mass hysteria.

[G7PSK]

The only problems with the weather I have come across is line clashing in the wind and sagging due to ice or expansion in extreme heat. Never heard of frequrncy shifting due to heat or cold, well not at low frequency of 50HZ.

[PartialDischarge]

Living in a remote area of Concord, New Hampshire, I could go at least a couple weeks with no contact and no utilities, because that happens regularly in winter anyway.  Loss of internet connectivity would be the greatest inconvenience, but I have been thinking of getting Starlink as a backup and for mobile internet access.

I do believe many US citizens are well prepared for this kind of event wrt to other parts of the world: hostile weather events (hurricanes, blizzards..), large territory, wild nature, better culture of survivalism…

[Analog Kid]

Living in a remote area of Concord, New Hampshire, I could go at least a couple weeks with no contact and no utilities, because that happens regularly in winter anyway.  Loss of internet connectivity would be the greatest inconvenience, but I have been thinking of getting Starlink as a backup and for mobile internet access.

I do believe many US citizens are well prepared for this kind of event wrt to other parts of the world: hostile weather events (hurricanes, blizzards..), large territory, wild nature, better culture of survivalism…

Really?
As a US citizen I have to dispute that. How many of my fat-assed neighbors, who cannot go anywhere without their gigantic gas-guzzling crew-cab pickup, would be prepared for such emergencies?
Not many, I reckon.
Sure, there are many "preppers" hereabouts (I live in a somewhat rural area); some of them might be OK, with generators and stashes of supplies.
But most everyone else, even here in my "red" county, are going to be about as well-prepared as I am. Which is to say, not at all. (Well, I do have a pretty good stash of toilet paper ...)

[PartialDischarge]

Really?
As a US citizen I have to dispute that. How many of my fat-assed neighbors, who cannot go anywhere without their gigantic gas-guzzling crew-cab pickup, would be prepared for such emergencies?
Not many, I reckon.
Sure, there are many "preppers" hereabouts (I live in a somewhat rural area); some of them might be OK, with generators and stashes of supplies.
But most everyone else, even here in my "red" county, are going to be about as well-prepared as I am. Which is to say, not at all. (Well, I do have a pretty good stash of toilet paper ...)

However you want to put it, it’s going to be worse in Europe for example. Maybe it’s the history of the US, a huge land of wild territory that was occupied in just 400 years, or maybe it’s Hollywood always scaring everyone of impending disasters…

[Analog Kid]

Really?
As a US citizen I have to dispute that. How many of my fat-assed neighbors, who cannot go anywhere without their gigantic gas-guzzling crew-cab pickup, would be prepared for such emergencies?
Not many, I reckon.
Sure, there are many "preppers" hereabouts (I live in a somewhat rural area); some of them might be OK, with generators and stashes of supplies.
But most everyone else, even here in my "red" county, are going to be about as well-prepared as I am. Which is to say, not at all. (Well, I do have a pretty good stash of toilet paper ...)

However you want to put it, it’s going to be worse in Europe for example. Maybe it’s the history of the US, a huge land of wild territory that was occupied in just 400 years, or maybe it’s Hollywood always scaring everyone of impending disasters…

In which case the only applicable scenario here is the "Mad Max" one.

I'm guessing you're not American, as you seem to have a pretty romanticized notion of how things are over here.

[TimFox]

The graph of "predicted" and "actual" power consumption posted above, over about 24 hours:
1.  Before the crash, the "actual" curve hugs the "predicted" curve with very little noise about it.
2.  My troubleshooting suspicions are raised by the sudden fall at almost exactly noon, local time.  I would be even more suspicious of a software problem/hack if that had occurred at midnight.

[Tation]

Apparently the grid is being restarted more or less successfully. Official reports claim 50 % of the grid up now. Here in Madrid wide areas are now powered.

Not yet any convincing explanation of what happened. They say that approximately 60 % of the generation "dissappeared" from the grid in just 5 seconds. Some point to the link with the rest of Europe, thru France,... well, I doubt such link has that capacity

[Alex Eisenhut]

The globalist space laser beam bounced off a geo-engineered chemtrail and caused a wormhole to collapse over Red Eléctrica's breaker J47-A in Madrid.

Simple, really.

(The preceding content is a (poor) attempt at humor and is for entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to actual events, locales, or persons is coincidental.)

[timeandfrequency]

Apparently the grid is being restarted more or less successfully. Official reports claim 50 % of the grid up now. Here in Madrid wide areas are now powered.

Not yet any convincing explanation of what happened. They say that approximately 60 % of the generation "dissappeared" from the grid in just 5 seconds. Some point to the link with the rest of Europe, thru France,... well, I doubt such link has that capacity

Yes, this is rather unlikely.

High voltage grid connexions between France and Spain :
Remark: power capacities are just ballpark figures, could not find much certified information on that topic.

2  400 kVAC lines, each 1 circuit   2 x 400 MW
2  225 kVAC lines, each 1 circuit ~ 2 x 400 MW
1  150 kVAC line  1 circuit           ~ 150 MW
1  DC line 2 circuits                    2 x 1000 MW

Total power exchange capacity between France and Spain : ~ 3750 MW    UPDATE : it is 2.8 GW, see Reply #83 below

If the power export towards Spain was at its' maximum capacity when the failure occured (worst case scenario), this would have contributed to less than 1/3rd of the quite instanteneous power loss that showed up at noon (about 13 15 GW loss) (*).
But is is true that if you fail to disconnect the regions that lack energy production/supply, the overload condition propagates very quickly towards a total blackout.

Spain will have to analyse all of the microsecond timestamped logs of the grid supervision system to locate the HV line or production plant that failed first.
And then try to understand why the regional disconnection process was slower than the propagation of the overload.

Of course, if the supervision system was hampered by outside influence, a blackout was inevitable.


(*) updated to match the declaration of spanisch prime minister Pedro Sanchez

[tggzzz]

People might benefit from reading this report, which contains phrases similar to (?AI translated?) phrases reported earlier in this thread.

While there are probably significant differences with the Iberian event, there might be similarities in sequences, causes and consequences. It will be interesting to do a "compare and contrast" exercise after the Iberian event is better characterised.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/855767/e3c-gb-power-disruption-9-august-2019-final-report.pdf
On Friday 9 August 2019, over 1 million customers were affected by a major power
disruption that occurred across England and Wales and some parts of Scotland. Though the
power disconnection itself was relatively short lived – all customers were restored within 45
minutes - the knock-on impacts to other services were significant. This is especially true for rail
services which experienced major delays that extended into Sunday 11 August.  The wider
disruptions were caused by automatic safety systems under the control of individual service
providers, which reacted to frequency and voltage fluctuations, or problems with their back-up
power supplies.

[David Hess]

Living in a remote area of Concord, New Hampshire, I could go at least a couple weeks with no contact and no utilities, because that happens regularly in winter anyway.  Loss of internet connectivity would be the greatest inconvenience, but I have been thinking of getting Starlink as a backup and for mobile internet access.

I do believe many US citizens are well prepared for this kind of event wrt to other parts of the world: hostile weather events (hurricanes, blizzards..), large territory, wild nature, better culture of survivalism…

I only took it seriously after living in suburban St. Louis for a couple years, where we had half day power outages every year, and an ice storm knocked the power out for a week.

My plans would be more thorough if I had to plan to survive without aid for more than 1 or 2 weeks.  I could do that now, but it would be grim after that amount of time.

When I travel in my pickup, just sleeping at rest areas, I am prepared to "rough it" for a week at a time if necessary.  It is not that difficult.

In which case the only applicable scenario here is the "Mad Max" one.

Our drawn-on-a-napkin plans to survive The Big One included setting furniture outside to provide cover for attackers.  Once they take advantage of the provided cover, we unlimber the big rifles changing the cover to concealment.

[langwadt]

Apparently the grid is being restarted more or less successfully. Official reports claim 50 % of the grid up now. Here in Madrid wide areas are now powered.

Not yet any convincing explanation of what happened. They say that approximately 60 % of the generation "dissappeared" from the grid in just 5 seconds. Some point to the link with the rest of Europe, thru France,... well, I doubt such link has that capacity

The last big area power cut I remember here was maybe 30 years ago, afair it turned out to be a network providing synchronization that failed so it wasn't lack of capacity, it was generation intentionally disconnecting because they didn't have a sync

So I guess if Spain and Portugal is only connected to the rest of Europe's grid via that connection to France losing that could make generation disconnect

[Drachenfels]

Raised an eyebrow when I read about the reason being given for the massive grid failure in Spain and Portugal - induced atmospheric vibration, hmmmm.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/apr/28/spain-and-portugal-power-outage-cause-cyber-attack-electricity

I can hear Dave in my head sniffing out loud and saying "smells like bulls..t"!

Anyone wanna take this up?

[JoeRoy]

Some media outlets are reporting a surge in renewable energy production that's putting strain on the electrical grid.

[EEVblog]