Power Line Conditioners for AV Equipment?

[Fried Chicken]

I recently did some work on the home theater setup, and the suggestions of power line conditioners for AV equipment came up.  My immediate reaction was one: "that's what the filter capacitors are for".  I think taking my plasma TV and putting it on a different outlet/circuit from the audio components made a difference in the picture quality/stability.

Eaton sell a range of power conditioners, and there are a number of products marketed specifically for home audio use.

Digging deeper I found that some are just glorified surge protectors, however others promise to maintain a steady voltage and sine wave at their output.

What exactly are power conditioners really?  How do they work, and how do their benefits manifest?  Are these just isolation transformers?  How can a power conditioner "boost" the voltage if it drops?  How is all this different from the filter capacitors used in the power supplies of various electronics?

[edpalmer42]

"Power Conditioner" is such a vague term that it could mean anything or nothing.  A few more specific terms that I can think of would be:

- Surge Suppressor
- Noise Filter (i.e. Low Pass Filter)
- Ultra-isolation Transformer
- Voltage Regulator
    - Ferro-Resonant Transformer (Can be acoustically noisy, also includes some characteristics of an Ultra-Isolation Transformer)
    - Active voltage regulator
- Full Online UPS (aka Dual Conversion UPS)

Whether any of these noticeably improve the picture/sound is very questionable.  It's very easy to slip from the audiophile into the audiofool category.

[5U4GB]

What exactly are [audio] power conditioners really? 

A means of separating the gullible from their money.

How do they work, and how do their benefits manifest?

They work through autosuggestion. The more money you spend on them, the more you convince yourself that they've made things better.

Not meant as a criticism, and bonus points for asking, but alongside a lot of other audio magic they're just woo-woo.

[coromonadalix]

"Power Conditioner" is such a vague term that it could mean anything or nothing.  A few more specific terms that I can think of would be:

- Surge Suppressor
- Noise Filter (i.e. Low Pass Filter)
- Ultra-isolation Transformer
- Voltage Regulator
    - Ferro-Resonant Transformer (Can be acoustically noisy, also includes some characteristics of an Ultra-Isolation Transformer)
    - Active voltage regulator
- Full Online UPS (aka Dual Conversion UPS)

Whether any of these noticeably improve the picture/sound is very questionable.  It's very easy to slip from the audiophile into the audiofool category.

same here    questionable
i've seen  numerous monster cable conditioners, power line conditioners     but in reality never saw any differences,    my concerns would be having good electrical outlets, earth ground  etc ...   up to the electrical box

BUT

i've seen some homes having power surges from electric stations near them, and yes  line conditioning helped stabilize things and cut voltages swings, and they added ups for computers who have line filters in them ...

[Stray Electron]

  We have a LOT of lightning in the area where I live and I have lost equipment to it in the years past. 30+ years ago I got a great deal on a pair of Sola constant voltage transformers so I installed them in it the room where most of my TV and audio equipment is located and all of that runs off of one of them. Since then I've had no more trouble with that equipment. I did a nearby hit of lightning after that and it destroyed the MOVs in a small Triplite surge protector that the phone line came in on (dial up modem) but nothing else was harmed.

    Also over the years I've made it a habit to scout around when companies were replacing their computer equipment and I've picked up a number of outlet strips that that surge protection (usually MOVs) in them for basically nothing and I laid in a stock of those and I use them all over the house. Now pretty much ALL of the outlet strips that I use have surge protection built in.

    And I recently put in Eaton whole house surge protectors in the breaker panels of both houses that I own.  There is a recent tread about that where I gave the model number and some other details. I think that they were about $110 each and I had to connect to them to new, dedicated 50 Amp breaker which cost about $50 each and I had to buy some odds and ends so the total costs came out to something under $400 total.  I think that now I'm 100% covered as far as any concerns about power problems.

  Oh and I just replaced a central AC unit and I had the installer install a small whole house surge protector at the disconnect panel for the outside unit. Then did it at no charge after we asked about it.

  So that's my solution.

[5U4GB]

I got a great deal on a pair of Sola constant voltage transformers so I installed them in it the room where most of my TV and audio equipment is located and all of that runs off of one of them.

How did you hear the audio over the buzz of the Solas?  Those things are damn noisy... although if you're listening to Sunn O))) it'd add to the ambience.

[Stray Electron]

  "How did you hear the audio over the buzz of the Solas? "

      Not sure what you're trying to infer but I've never had a Sola CVT that buzzed loudly enough to be objectionable and I've installed, owned or worked around a lot of them including the biggest and the smallest models that they sell in the US. Most of the ones that I've been around are dead silent in operation. I've heard a bit of audible hum from some of the units sometimes but not enough to interfere with anything. The units do get a bit warm (due to wasted power) but they made a good foot rest when I was working at my desk. 

   OTOH all of the units that I've worked with were made in the 1970s, 80s and 90s so the newer units might be more cheaply made and noisier.  That seems to be the way that most products are headed today.  FWIW I still have the two small units that I bought used in around 1987 and they're still working and I walk by them everyday and I don't hear a sound out of them.

   YMMV.

[Fried Chicken]

I've done more digging around, and it seems there isn't a single technology that one can call "power conditioner" or "power line conditioner".  It's not like if you say "Class D Amplifier" you know exactly what you're getting.

While appreciate the cautions about the placebo effect and the audiofoolery, understand that's not what I'm asking here.  I am wondering what is a "powerline conditioner" and how does it work.  If there are multiple implementations, what are they and how do they work?  Eaton promises noise filtering, how is that achieved?

[5U4GB]

"Power Conditioner" is such a vague term that it could mean anything or nothing.  A few more specific terms that I can think of would be:

- Surge Suppressor
- Noise Filter (i.e. Low Pass Filter)
- Ultra-isolation Transformer
- Voltage Regulator
    - Ferro-Resonant Transformer (Can be acoustically noisy, also includes some characteristics of an Ultra-Isolation Transformer)
    - Active voltage regulator
- Full Online UPS (aka Dual Conversion UPS)

Another one to add to the list, since I've got one protecting the IT gear: "Active X tracking filter", where X is variously "sinewave", "harmonic", and others.  And then there's particular branded products like SurgeX, not sold as audio-specific but more for general power-line device protection.

[Fried Chicken]

I looked inside my Yamaha RX-A3040 flagship receiver and noticed only two 33000µF filter capacitors.  Compare this with the series 4 x 33000 µF filter capacitors in my dedicated 2-channel amplifier (Yamaha M65).

Anyway, I bring this up: perhaps the filtering capabilities on these receivers are not as good as they could be, and a powerline conditioner to filter out unwanted noise (outside of the 60Hz sine wave they are designed for) might not be as stupid as one might think.

Regardless, I still want to know the types, how they work, and what these powerline conditioners aim to achieve.

Another one to add to the list, since I've got one protecting the IT gear: "Active X tracking filter", where X is variously "sinewave", "harmonic", and others.  And then there's particular branded products like SurgeX, not sold as audio-specific but more for general power-line device protection.

That link is interesting ty for sharing

[Gregg]

I used to have an older Tripp Lite power conditioner that utilized a multi tapped autotransformer with mechanical relays that would cycle to attempt to keep output voltage somewhat stable. It was quite heavy, probably 1980’s in a sturdy metal case, but it didn’t make noise like a Sola; the only noise was clicking of relays if the incoming line voltage varied significantly like during a storm.
I lent it to my brother, probably to never be seen again; we all know how that goes.  It has been so long since I took the cover off that I don’t remember exactly how it was configured.

[johansen]

I used to have an older Tripp Lite power conditioner that utilized a multi tapped autotransformer with mechanical relays that would cycle to attempt to keep output voltage somewhat stable. It was quite heavy, probably 1980’s in a sturdy metal case, but it didn’t make noise like a Sola; the only noise was clicking of relays if the incoming line voltage varied significantly like during a storm.
I lent it to my brother, probably to never be seen again; we all know how that goes.  It has been so long since I took the cover off that I don’t remember exactly how it was configured.

I have one of those its about 8x8x6 with 6 outlet, wastes about 12 watts continuously. i forget if there is a series of some LC filters so its 40db for one outlet, 60 for the next, then 80 or something like that, but i have seen such products in the past.

such line filters are left over from the tube days when capacitors were expensive and the analog circuits were not well shielded, often with live chassis, so they picked up noise literally millions of times more sensitive than modern audio with its minimum -90db PSRR.

Constant voltage transformers with their resonant tank on half of the core run saturated and that's how they regulate the voltage, so they may make noise and hum a bit. A friend has a 3KVA rated unit that weighs about 60 pounds, it was left plugged in for decades and sat around 40C probably wasting at least 100 watts.  -it was originally  powering a computer in the pdp-11 days

[pope]

I've been also thinking about it and I was wondering whether an AC power source would be a good idea.

Something like this for example:

https://www.gwinstek.com/en-global/products/downloadSeriesSpec/576

[Fried Chicken]

I've been also thinking about it and I was wondering whether an AC power source would be a good idea.

Something like this for example:

https://www.gwinstek.com/en-global/products/downloadSeriesSpec/576

These don't look like they'd deliver enough current (power)

[electric_cheeze]

What exactly are power conditioners really?  How do they work, and how do their benefits manifest?  Are these just isolation transformers?

A company called Equitech and a few others make a curious transformer based system that converts a line single phase to a 60/120V split phase system;
 https://equitech.com/products/rack-mount/2rq/

There are large hard wired models for recording studios, I have seen one that takes 240V 1-phase in and generate 60/120 split phase.
Under the Electrical codes in the US they are installed per article 647 of the National Electrical Code (NEC)
They are pricey units, but truly create a true 'separately derived' AC system.
 

[johansen]

What exactly are power conditioners really?  How do they work, and how do their benefits manifest?  Are these just isolation transformers?

A company called Equitech and a few others make a curious transformer based system that converts a line single phase to a 60/120V split phase system;
 https://equitech.com/products/rack-mount/2rq/

There are large hard wired models for recording studios, I have seen one that takes 240V 1-phase in and generate 60/120 split phase.
Under the Electrical codes in the US they are installed per article 647 of the National Electrical Code (NEC)
They are pricey units, but truly create a true 'separately derived' AC system.

It really only gives you 3db less parasitic 60hz hum.

As for the price, you can use any common isolation transformer and two say, 10uf capacitors to make a 60v middle point and then you ground that point and you have plus and minus 60vac relative to the real ground..

A gfci outlet will still work and will trip in the event that any phase is connected to ground if more than 5ma passes. The caps are 265 ohms at 60hz, at any real audio frequency they are practically speaking zero impedance relative to your sound equipment.

Such 60/120 vac isolated systems are still used on some jobsites to reduce the electric shock hazard.

[Fried Chicken]

There was a guy named Dave I believe?  He created the Uberbuss under the name PI Audio.

It seems to be something of tangible value

[5U4GB]

Regardless, I still want to know the types, how they work, and what these powerline conditioners aim to achieve.

That's asking for a lot of technical analysis across a wide range of products, and it's quite a rabbit hole to go down once you start getting into different filtering/suppression techniques.  In particular you can end up over-fitting a particular solution to what you estimate is your current need, e.g. you read about the benefits of X and focus on getting something optimised for X.

Although I'm throwing up in my mouth a little at suggesting this, getting your favourite AI bot to summarise what's out there for you may be a good start.  Scraping a ton of technical material and summarising is one thing they're actually rather good at.

[5U4GB]

I used to have an older Tripp Lite power conditioner that utilized a multi tapped autotransformer with mechanical relays that would cycle to attempt to keep output voltage somewhat stable. It was quite heavy, probably 1980’s in a sturdy metal case, but it didn’t make noise like a Sola; the only noise was clicking of relays if the incoming line voltage varied significantly like during a storm.

Those were for linear, possibly unregulated, power supplies from back then that were potentially sensitive to line voltage swings. A modern SMPS won't have any problems with them, and even a well-designed linear will be OK with at least some variation.  For example here's the last few days worth of readings showing at least 10V variation in mains voltage over that time with no effect on anything.

[Fried Chicken]

Although I'm throwing up in my mouth a little at suggesting this, getting your favourite AI bot to summarise what's out there for you may be a good start.  Scraping a ton of technical material and summarising is one thing they're actually rather good at.

I refuse.

I imagine this question is akin to asking about the types of electric motors, for which an answer can be given in a single sentence.  Somewhere, someone, has all this right at figurative front of their cortex and can put all the answers out in a single sentence.

[Someone]

I imagine this question is akin to asking about the types of electric motors, for which an answer can be given in a single sentence.  Somewhere, someone, has all this right at figurative front of their cortex and can put all the answers out in a single sentence.

Different types of electric motors use various techniques to maintain a phase difference between the magnetic forces of the stationary and rotating parts.

Different types of power conditioners suppress or correct various characteristics* of mains power to make the resulting waveform closer to the ideal.

* problem being the term "power conditioner" is used by different suppliers to mean wildly different things, and then you add in consumer products and audiophile/fool and the terms are watered down and confused even further. Most people buying these products are "correcting" or attenuating characteristics which have no impact on the actual results they want to achieve.

The answer you won't like... you're desperately hoping for a magic answer that ties together your preconceived notions. for example:

I looked inside my Yamaha RX-A3040 flagship receiver and noticed only two 33000µF filter capacitors.  Compare this with the series 4 x 33000 µF filter capacitors in my dedicated 2-channel amplifier (Yamaha M65).

Anyway, I bring this up: perhaps the filtering capabilities on these receivers are not as good as they could be, and a powerline conditioner to filter out unwanted noise (outside of the 60Hz sine wave they are designed for) might not be as stupid as one might think.

That links two things together which are almost entirely disconnected. These things can be measured and tested or modelled but you're off in imaginary thinking land.

[5U4GB]

I imagine this question is akin to asking about the types of electric motors, for which an answer can be given in a single sentence. 

No, it can't.  Imagine what sort of answer you'd give to someone who asks "what's the best electric motor for me, in one sentence?".  When you understand that, you'll also understand why there's no one-sentence answer to "what's the best power conditioner for me".

However, since you wanted a single-sentence answer, the best power conditioner for you is definitely a Phase-a-Matic RH100, that'll give you plenty of headroom for future expansion if required.

[Fried Chicken]

I imagine this question is akin to asking about the types of electric motors, for which an answer can be given in a single sentence.  Somewhere, someone, has all this right at figurative front of their cortex and can put all the answers out in a single sentence.

Different types of electric motors use various techniques to maintain a phase difference between the magnetic forces of the stationary and rotating parts.

I mean: brushless AC, brushless DC, brushed AC, brushed DC, permanent magnet AC, induction, three phase AC, etc.  Those are the different types of electric motors.

Different types of power conditioners suppress or correct various characteristics* of mains power to make the resulting waveform closer to the ideal.

* problem being the term "power conditioner" is used by different suppliers to mean wildly different things, and then you add in consumer products and audiophile/fool and the terms are watered down and confused even further. Most people buying these products are "correcting" or attenuating characteristics which have no impact on the actual results they want to achieve.

That asterisk is literally why I made this thread, I want to decipher that landscape.  I feel it's a reasonable thing to ask here.

The answer you won't like... you're desperately hoping for a magic answer that ties together your preconceived notions

That's presumptious.  I'm literally just asking what these are, what they claim to do, why someone might want them, and simply stating how/why I came across this.

However, since you wanted a single-sentence answer, the best power conditioner for you is definitely a Phase-a-Matic RH100, that'll give you plenty of headroom for future expansion if required.

I never once asked is the best anything.  I'm not even in the market for one.  Again, all I'm asking is what they do, how they work, and maybe why audio enthusiasts might want one, and/or why they're stupid or pointless for audio applications.

This really isn't a "what should I buy" thread.

[paulca]

I know that the wave I see on a scope is visually different between the grid and the off-grid inverter.  The grid is not a perfect sine way, it's been bent, squashed and looks just a little odd.  I was tempted to try and get both on the scope at the same time and do a diff, as they should be phase locked.  But I didn't trust myself to do that.  They both have an N and while that should be bonded with the E only in one place, any voltage difference between them pull grid current though my scope ground.  Even if it's a battery scope.

[Someone]

I imagine this question is akin to asking about the types of electric motors, for which an answer can be given in a single sentence.  Somewhere, someone, has all this right at figurative front of their cortex and can put all the answers out in a single sentence.

Different types of electric motors use various techniques to maintain a phase difference between the magnetic forces of the stationary and rotating parts.

I mean: brushless AC, brushless DC, brushed AC, brushed DC, permanent magnet AC, induction, three phase AC, etc.  Those are the different types of electric motors.

So where is this one sentence answer which makes it clear?

Or are you wanting a list of all the different characteristics which could be "conditioned" ?