Best precision screwdriver set?

[EEVblog]

I have a present due to me 
What is the best set of precision screwdrivers?
This Whia set looks nice:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wiha-Precision-50-Pc-MasterTech-Screwdriver-Set-92190-/261199699983
or tray:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wiha-51-Pc-Precision-Screwdriver-Set-in-Molded-Tray-92191-/310681873353
or maybe a bit set:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wiha-40-pc-System-4-Precision-4-mm-Bit-Screwdriver-Tech-Set-75996-/230928909035

Other options for quality brands?

[PeterG]

Space permitting, i would take the Tray set. Quick and easy to locate the correct tool.

[EEVblog]

Space permitting, i would take the Tray set. Quick and easy to locate the correct tool.

Yeah. The stand looks impressive, but would probably be annoying to find anything.
I could mount the tray under the bench on a slide out shelf or something!

[PeterG]

Space permitting, i would take the Tray set. Quick and easy to locate the correct tool.

Yeah. The stand looks impressive, but would probably be annoying to find anything.
I could mount the tray under the bench on a slide out shelf or something!

Of coarse it would be a push button, servo controlled slide out shelf ...... Yet another use for an Arduino?

[dr.diesel]

You simply cannot go wrong with Wiha, some of the best drivers made today.

Damn you, now I have to get a set!  Think I'll go for the first one, with the metal tray.

[EEVblog]

Damn you, now I have to get a set!  Think I'll go for the first one, with the metal tray.

It is rather lust worthy isn't it!

[EEVblog]

Any Whia suppliers in Oz?

[robrenz]

Previous discussion here .  Wera is also very good but they dont have the complete set available as a single item with tray like Wiha.  I have both and they are both very good tools.  IMO the small precision handles are not the best once the driver or nut driver sizes get very big.  It is hard to get sufficient torque on those tiny handles on larger fasteners. I have a mix of Whia system 4 and nut drivers and Wera larger screwdrivers.

Edit: fixed link

[quarks]

Hello Dave,
have also a look at PBSwiss Tools.
I have a few of these and they are the best build quality of all my precision screwdrivers (see picture, they even have individual Serial #).
bye
quarks

[uoficowboy]

You simply cannot go wrong with Wiha, some of the best drivers made today.

Damn you, now I have to get a set!  Think I'll go for the first one, with the metal tray.

Agreed - Wiha tools are awesome. Good ol Germans know how to make a screwdriver

[jamesp15]

I have the "ESD Safe" version of the 92190 and I absolutely love them, use them daily and have yet to damage or even show signs of wear on a single tip.  They are obviously not for high-torque use, but the grips/tips on them are good for almost any disassembly/assembly that screws of that size are likely to be used in.

Amazon sells them for around the same price as that ebay seller.  (I assume they ship to Australia)
Standard   (they went up in cost, they used to be USD 160-175)
ESD   (also went up, way up, used to be ~USD 200)
If you need SAE size nut drivers (probably not) dont forget: (Standard or ESD)
The ESD "safe" versions seem to have gone WAY up in cost, probably not worth the cost differences now.

Wiha has a list of distributers by region here.

[Balaur]

That made me salivate!

Just yesterday I've need a Hex 1.3 (or more precisely a 0.05 inches) for my recently acquired Lambda PSU. Never need it before, and I guess I'll never need it again, but it's rather showstopping if you don't have the bit. I had to file a hex key.

I have Wera, Wiha, Facom, and Proxxon screwdriver sets.
Facom are OK. I largely prefer their mechanical tools to their screwdrivers.
Proxxons, to be frank, are rather underwhelming. I like their powered minitools, but I cannot say the same for the screwdrivers.
I have a Wiha SlimVario. Nice, but a bit annoyed that they are not compatible with standard bit holders.
My preferred set is a Wera set. Super nice finishing and durable.

BTW, is rather amazing to see how easy is to strip small screws with the incorrect bit. Screws these days seems to fit bad and be made of putty.

Cheers,
Dan

[nanofrog]

Of the items listed, the tray would probably be the best bet IMHO, as it seems easier to find what you need.  No retaining collar as is on the interchangeable set you linked either (might have problems gaining access to recessed screws).

Never needed one of those tiny nut drivers much, so I went a different route, using their Drive-Loc systems 4 & 6 (adjustable length shaft, holds in place instead of sliding back into the handles, and a wide variety of bit profiles). Larger nuts, I just use sockets on a 1/4" spinner bit that shoves into the System 6 handle.

Might be worth a look. 

Drive Loc System 4 set: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wiha-12-Pc-ESD-Drive-Loc-Precision-Slotted-Phillips-Torx-Screwdriver-Set-26985-/310596735765?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4851021315
Drive Loc System 6 sets: https://www.kctoolco.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=drive-loc+vi+set
Drive Loc System 6 blades (profiles not included in sets, such as Tri-Wing security bits): https://www.kctoolco.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=drive-loc+vi+blades

[pmcouto]

I am a big fan of Felo screwdrivers: http://www.felo.com/en/

Excellent quality tools for a very reasonable price! 

[notsob]

Very nice, but if you do not already have them, invest in some JIS tips as well.

[strobot]

Wera Kraftform Micro series are very nice too.  Keep them in something similar to a jeweler's rotating tool stand.
http://www-us.wera.de/catalog_us.html?L=1&file=/en-US/root_category_screwdrivers_series_kraftform_micro.html

[ftransform]

drill + your own screws 

[edavid]

Is there a decent (at least not crappy) set of full screwdrivers (not just bits) for under USD 50?

[jvdb]

Is there a decent (at least not crappy) set of full screwdrivers (not just bits) for under USD 50?

Probably not in the set sizes that were quoted previously, but you could get smaller sets.. buy them as you need them.

Wiha 26199 Slotted and Phillips Set - $37.48
Wiha 26799 8-Piece Torx - $43.93
or
Wera Kraftform Micro-Set, 12 Pc - $38.44

I'd love nice screwdrivers, but I always seem to have better stuff to spend my money on.
The last few years I have been buying these because they last a lot longer than most of the disposable screwdrivers out there, and I can easily get replacements:

Husky 8-IN-1 Phillips and Slotted Screwdriver Set
Husky 8-IN-1 Torx Screwdriver Set

[david77]

The Wiha drivers are really very good.
I'm wondering why all the Wiha Picofinish sets that are shown in the links above still have the old style handle, though. Wiha have changed to a much better design quite a few years ago.

They should look like this: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41BX1x91t2L.jpg

Maybe these ebay sellers sell old stock, maybe they're far eastern copies? I don't know, but it's something I'd check out if I were to spend 200+ bucks on screw drivers.

[saturation]

I was repairing a miniature data logger with precision screws and found I twisted the tip of a #1 slotted Wiha driver nearly identical to this report; I don't have a microscope so I could take a good photo with my camera:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/precision-screwdriver-advice/msg190273/#msg190273

I'm surprised it happened; I bought these for its durability. 



I'm not sure I'd buy these again, particularly at this size, #1 slotted, the real test of precision drivers are in the smallest tips, as it has the least mass; it requires strength, small size and precision.   Its seems Wiha's older formulation was superior.

[saturation]

I found my macro digital, here's some quick photos of my Wiha #1 slotted driver.  The deformation is quite severe.

In this image, you can see the metal bunching up were the driver ends drives the screw corners.  This suggests either the screw is too hard, or the driver too soft, or I applied too much torque.  But for the screws such drivers were made to drive, 1mm, it should not happen.  Screws are typically carbon steel, and should be softer than the driver.

If bought separately, Wiha charges $10 per driver, S&H included.  Bought as part of a set they are $6-7 each.  I have a set of Taiwanese drivers that I used for the same work, and they are intact, they claim its chrome-vanadium steel, it was $5 for a set of 8 long shafts.




In this photo, you can see one edge bent completely off the frame, with a minature fracture down the center of the driver 

[quarks]

I was repairing a miniature data logger with precision screws and found I twisted the tip of a #1 slotted Wiha driver nearly identical to this report; I don't have a microscope so I could take a good photo with my camera:

I'm not sure I'd buy these again, particularly at this size, #1 slotted, the real test of precision drivers are in the smallest tips, as it has the least mass; it requires strength, small size and precision.   Its seems Wiha's older formulation was superior.

The picture is from me and I  must say my older Wiha drivers are superior.

[TimNJ]

Wiha is good but not the best. I doubt you'd have any problems with them, but Wera probably makes better drivers. Look for Wera Kraftform Micro. They make ESD safe versions also, though I'm not entirely sure the difference or if it makes them any better.

[eKretz]

As with many purchases these days, you pays your money and you takes your chances. Many of the formerly great tool companies that used to make some of the finest tools available have fallen down the colloquial hole of counting beans rather than insuring quality. Among these formerly towering greats are names such as Starrett, Craftsman, Cleveland, etc. I'm certain there are Euro-centric companies that have also suffered this fate. Apparently Wiha also is falling in. I have many older Wiha drivers that I would rate superb, with no rounding or deformation after years of use. I also have many tools made by some of the aforementioned companies, and the issue is the same.  The older tools are superb, the newer ones have corners cut. Both in terms of finish and also metallurgy and heat treatment. It seems to have happened right about the same time the production on many of them moved to Asia.

[David_AVD]

I gave up trying to find a decent precision (AKA jeweler's) screwdriver set.  I tend to find individual small screwdrivers that are reasonable quality and buy replacements when they wear down too much.  A lot of tip breakages comes down to using the wrong screwdriver for the job I've found.

[BravoV]

I always bought bunch of those cheap ones, and before used, always did heat/cold treatment by burning them on the tip with butane torch until its really bright yellow, and a quick stab into a block of ice or dip into icy water, although the tip will be a bit brittle, but it will be really hard and and it just won't bend or deform.

Once chipped, just throw it away and grab another fresh one, much-much less stressful, at least for me.

[poorchava]

BAHCO tools are also great. Downside is that they are rather expensive. 24pc set of precision screwdrivers (#706-5) is >100€. Smaller (5-6pc) sets are around 35-40€.

I don't own these, but I have some other BAHCO stuff and it's really top quality (and price....).

[saturation]

Yes, I think so, but I used a Taiwan driver, albeit it was 1.4mm, without issue on the same project.  No problems or deformation.  I feel Wiha has changed the formulation, so the strength of the metal isn't obvious until you go down to small tips, either that or I have a quality control problem with my driver.

I gave up trying to find a decent precision (AKA jeweler's) screwdriver set.  I tend to find individual small screwdrivers that are reasonable quality and buy replacements when they wear down too much.  A lot of tip breakages comes down to using the wrong screwdriver for the job I've found.

[saturation]

Thanks quarks, yes thank you. Since it was your driver I presume you are in Germany and I am in the USA, it strongly suggests something is wrong at production level, since we are sampling a tool worlds away, and likely different production batches.  So the problem, likely isn't just a chance error.

I was repairing a miniature data logger with precision screws and found I twisted the tip of a #1 slotted Wiha driver nearly identical to this report; I don't have a microscope so I could take a good photo with my camera:

I'm not sure I'd buy these again, particularly at this size, #1 slotted, the real test of precision drivers are in the smallest tips, as it has the least mass; it requires strength, small size and precision.   Its seems Wiha's older formulation was superior.

The picture is from me and I  must say my older Wiha drivers are superior.

[jamesp15]

I would contact them directly, when I had a deformed screwdriver (not one of the precision kinds, a full sized/standard slotted) that was used as a pry bar they replaced it and didnt want the old one back from me even. (was 2 years or so ago)   

as a side note:  never loan good tools to people who dont know how to use them...   (I now keep a cheap set on hand to loan people.)

[ben_r_]

Yea this is why I have always gone the "buy a ton of the cheap ones and just throw them away when they wear out" route. I dont really believe there are any worth the money high priced ones anymore. I think they all have gone cheap. Could be wrong, but Im not going to spend a fortune on various brands bits to find out.

[saturation]

On bold items, I will do or have done this.  Yes, my cheapo Taiwan set was my loaner set, and it seems to be made fairly close to the 'top' brand.

I would contact them directly, when I had a deformed screwdriver (not one of the precision kinds, a full sized/standard slotted) that was used as a pry bar they replaced it and didnt want the old one back from me even. (was 2 years or so ago)   

as a side note:  never loan good tools to people who dont know how to use them...   (I now keep a cheap set on hand to loan people.)

Maybe this is a lesson for today.... those of you with old tools of the venerable brands, don't lose them, they are likely heirloom quality just like the way they made old HP gear. 

 

Yea this is why I have always gone the "buy a ton of the cheap ones and just throw them away when they wear out" route. I dont really believe there are any worth the money high priced ones anymore. I think they all have gone cheap. Could be wrong, but Im not going to spend a fortune on various brands bits to find out.

[robrenz]

Warning! wandering babble ahead

This discussion has made me realize a most excellent straight blade screwdriver could be made from a high quality tap. The heat treat and metalurgy on these cannot be compromised and still be a good product. High wear resistance yet still mechanicaly tough are a must.  A "good" tap is in the $10 to $25 range for one tap in a small (m3 to m8) size range. You are paying for premium particle metalurgy tool steels and flawless heat treating procedures.  Yes they are worth the price premium, (1) $25 tap can outlast (50) $5 taps if you are working on tougher materials.

High speed steel drill blanks could used also but they are not in the same league as high end taps as far as material quality goes. But they are only about $2.50 for a 3mm dia blank.

BUT
These tools will shatter when over stressed sending blinding shards of metal everywhere. So safety glasses are a must.  That is why the screwdriver manufacturers err on the side of ductility rather than hardness/wear resistance. Most of us would complain if a screwdiver failed in a brittle fracture mode rather than a gradual yielding.  So get your Dremel out and grind yourself a few blades.  Even though overheating is not advisable, high speed steels do not loose their temper from overheating like standard screw driver materials do.

[BravoV]

So get your Dremel out and grind yourself a few blades.  Even though overheating is not advisable, high speed steels do not loose their temper from overheating like standard screw driver materials do.

Great idea, this made me think to use few of my used & old Hanson taps. Btw, Hanson (Irwin) brand should has decent steel inside it right ?

Robrenz, how about making a short video on how to do that "properly" using simple rotary tool & grinder like Dremel, and make a simple yet effective handle for it too, I bet lots of fellows here will love it.

[robrenz]

Great idea, this made me think to use few of my used & old Hanson taps. Btw, Hanson (Irwin) brand should has decent steel inside it right ?

It will probably make a decent screwdriver but Hanson is a very low quality tap by industrial standards.

Robrenz, how about making a short video on how to do that "properly" using simple rotary tool & grinder like Dremel, and make a simple yet effective handle for it too, I bet lots of fellows here will love it.

I may just do that

[BravoV]

Great idea, this made me think to use few of my used & old Hanson taps. Btw, Hanson (Irwin) brand should has decent steel inside it right ?

It will probably make a decent screwdriver but Hanson is a very low quality tap by industrial standards.

Yes, they're cheap one, but I'm no machinist, and I believe I've just done few tap holes for last 5 years. 

These taps are maybe more than 15 years old and none chipped yet, and from the look & feel, I guess it has better steel than those el-cheapo screw driver, not very sure though.

Robrenz, how about making a short video on how to do that "properly" using simple rotary tool & grinder like Dremel, and make a simple yet effective handle for it too, I bet lots of fellows here will love it.

I may just do that

Great, eagerly waiting for it  ! 

Btw, if you've decided to do it, please, make the video as such that its doable by your audiences that are just an avg Joes that have only a simple rotary tool like Dremel and maybe other common tools as well, instead of using those cool professional machinist tools you have there. 

[eKretz]

Another good idea Rob. I have actually made center punches from taps and they hold up remarkably well. They're a lot tougher than most people think. You could even make some Phillips drivers with some CBN grinding pins. Maybe even Torx. You'd need to be at least a hobbyist level machinist to do a good job on anything but a flat blade though.

[poorchava]

For tougher material, also Tungsten Carbide can be used. Endmills are being made out of it. Carbide is extremely hard (i suppose you couldn't put a scratch on it using any tool made of metal) but also brittle.

I have ground broken carbide endmills into micro-chisel-like tools using diamond grinding wheel. Only for a very delicate job though. Perfect for removing hairline shorts on homemade pcb's.

[Isamun]

If you are considering high-end German screwdrivers, you'd might want to give Bernstein a look. I got a 4 sets of 6 screwdrivers(3 ph, 3 slotted, 6 metric hex, 6 torx, and 6 nut) in a custom rack I made myself. These are the ESD variety with dissipative handles. The quality is similar to Wiha. I expected them to be more forgiving in terms of abuse, but I guess precision tools like this are supposed to be handled with respect ^^

I tried out some Wiha drivers at work and the grip is surely better on the Bernstein ones i have. But the downside is that the yellow markings tend to wear off.

I don't know about the others brands, but you can get these one by one. Which is great if you damage one or missing that tiny TORX

I see they are available from mektronics.

I also got some pliers and a vice from the same manufacturer and the quality is over all very good.

[John Coloccia]

I have a bunch of Wiha and Wera drivers in my shop here.  Wiha makes a very nice tool, but I prefer my Wera.  Tips seem to be better, grips are better, and the whole tool just feels better.  Anyhow, that's just my opinion.  It's cheap enough to buy one of each and compare them, I guess.

That said, if someone gave me a set of Wihas, I'd be quite happy! 

[casinada]

I recommend the Felo Screwdrivers. The Chromium Vanadium I have are indestructible. 35 Years and Kicking

http://www.felo.com/en/catalog/series/s-nm/
http://www.felo.com/en/catalog/series/s240/

[Stonent]

I've got a Wiha screwdriver somewhere, was very nice, it has the bits in the end and they never chipped or damaged any screws. I purchased it back in 1998 or so when I kept on borrowing someone elses and of course they told me to get my own.  I remember someone else once saying to me "I need to experience the power of the Wiha on this computer" Usually meaning a stubborn or stripped screw that the Wiha would have no trouble removing.

Mine was solid red all the way down with a black cap covering the bits, I think it was rated to 450 or 1000v but can't remember for sure.

It cost me $13 back then.

[ben_r_]

Its not a super expensive one, but I use this set and as you can see from the reviews its well liked. LINK

[saturation]

Interesting, I'll give it a look.  Thanks for the link.  I need a 'lendable' set of precision allen this look perfect.

Its not a super expensive one, but I use this set and as you can see from the reviews its well liked. LINK

[SeanB]

I have a similar set, quite nice to use, has a lot of smaller security bits in it.

[Marc M.]

For tougher material, also Tungsten Carbide can be used. Endmills are being made out of it. Carbide is extremely hard (i suppose you couldn't put a scratch on it using any tool made of metal) but also brittle.

I have ground broken carbide endmills into micro-chisel-like tools using diamond grinding wheel. Only for a very delicate job though. Perfect for removing hairline shorts on homemade pcb's.

Carbide is way too brittle to use as a screwdriver or a punch.  It would shatter as soon as you applied any torque  or impact to it.  Also keep in mind that carbide dust is very nasty stuff.  When grinding carbide a mask and eye protection should be used in addition to a dust collector.

As far as taps, I've used them to make screw extractors and special shaped punches now and then.  I work in a machine shop repairing CNC machine centers so I have access to as many used taps as I want.  All top quality stuff like OSG, Emuge, Cleveland, etc.  I never thought about using them to make screwdrivers.  Thanks Robrenz, what a great idea!  I'll have to give that a try.

[larry42]

I have a present due to me 
What is the best set of precision screwdrivers?
This Whia set looks nice:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wiha-Precision-50-Pc-MasterTech-Screwdriver-Set-92190-/261199699983

I've been lusting after the ESD version of that set
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/92092/431-1051-ND/725106?CSRT=7604320451349389423&CSRT=14409492973511979752

[nanofrog]

I've been lusting after the ESD version of that set
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/92092/431-1051-ND/725106?CSRT=7604320451349389423&CSRT=14409492973511979752

Not sure if this helps, but you can find them for ~$300 - 305 range in the US if you're interested. 
http://www.crawfordtool.com/wiha_92092.html
http://www.amazon.com/Wiha-92092-Master-Technicians-Screwdriver/dp/B000NZ8K7C

[g3org3]

I am using the Proxxon set for some years now and very happy with it, good price also:

http://www.proxxontools.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=69

[Clint]

I use Facom, I cant recommend these enough, these are the older ones I have had them forever and I would buy another set if they ever decide to wear, but there is no signs of that !

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/360643092975

On a side note I have almost every facom screwdriver in my toolbox and a huge cost, again I can 100% recommend them too

[senso]

I don't know the precision/micro screwdrivers from Facom, but anything above that is all top quality, and also top price, in Portugal they are regarded as top quality tools..

[geostep]

Dave,

With all the postings here did you come to any decision and make a purchase? If so what did you get and how have they performed for you?

- George

[Stonent]

For tougher material, also Tungsten Carbide can be used. Endmills are being made out of it. Carbide is extremely hard (i suppose you couldn't put a scratch on it using any tool made of metal) but also brittle.

I have ground broken carbide endmills into micro-chisel-like tools using diamond grinding wheel. Only for a very delicate job though. Perfect for removing hairline shorts on homemade pcb's.

Carbide is way too brittle to use as a screwdriver or a punch.  It would shatter as soon as you applied any torque  or impact to it.  Also keep in mind that carbide dust is very nasty stuff.  When grinding carbide a mask and eye protection should be used in addition to a dust collector.

As far as taps, I've used them to make screw extractors and special shaped punches now and then.  I work in a machine shop repairing CNC machine centers so I have access to as many used taps as I want.  All top quality stuff like OSG, Emuge, Cleveland, etc.  I never thought about using them to make screwdrivers.  Thanks Robrenz, what a great idea!  I'll have to give that a try.

I have a tungsten wedding ring.  My first day at my most recent job, it slipped off and bounced on the concrete floor and cracked all the way through on one side. So I superglued it together and started wearing it around my neck. (We're supposed to have metal jewelry taken off or covered so there's no chance of a safety issue or scratching any of our products)

[jvdb]

I have a tungsten wedding ring.  My first day at my most recent job, it slipped off and bounced on the concrete floor and cracked all the way through on one side.

Apparently these are commonly cracked with vice grips because they can't be cut.

[Stonent]

I have a tungsten wedding ring.  My first day at my most recent job, it slipped off and bounced on the concrete floor and cracked all the way through on one side.

Apparently these are commonly cracked with vice grips because they can't be cut.

Yes I remember watching that video when I got my ring to figure out what to do in case of an emergency.

[ben_r_]

I have a tungsten wedding ring.  My first day at my most recent job, it slipped off and bounced on the concrete floor and cracked all the way through on one side.

Apparently these are commonly cracked with vice grips because they can't be cut.

Thats funny to think about. Hardest material ever to be used for jewelry, cant be cut is so tough, but some light squeezing with a pair of vise grips and pfffft, it crumbles.

[SeanB]

Remember that there is a lot of confusion between hardness and toughness. Diamond is hard, but not terribly tough, it shatters with impact. Silicone rubber is not terribly hard but very tough.

Biggest confusion was that some thought that the way to test if it was a real diamond was to hit it with a hammer, if it did not shatter it was a genuine diamond. Wonder how many were destroyed by that myth.

[Stonent]

Remember that there is a lot of confusion between hardness and toughness. Diamond is hard, but not terribly tough, it shatters with impact. Silicone rubber is not terribly hard but very tough.

Biggest confusion was that some thought that the way to test if it was a real diamond was to hit it with a hammer, if it did not shatter it was a genuine diamond. Wonder how many were destroyed by that myth.

Diamond also will burn. So if you have any fine jewelry make sure you keep it in a fireproof safe.

[eKretz]

Furthering that train of thought, Tungsten carbide can easily be cut with diamond abrasives (I.E. rotary cut-off wheel) or shattered. Pure Tungsten is much easier to damage than Tungsten carbide. Tungsten carbide is nearly as hard to scratch as a diamond. IIRC, it's above 9 on the Moh's hardness scale, where pure Tungsten is ~7.5, and diamond is of course 10. Cubic Boron Nitride falls in between the Tungsten carbide and diamond. None of these would be very useful as a screwdriver blade, but some might make good coatings for screwdriver blades. (Tungsten Carbide plating would probably do wonders with a good properly hardened substrate, I can't imagine it would ever wear out). But those would be some expensive screwdrivers.

[Phroon]

(Tungsten Carbide plating would probably do wonders with a good properly hardened substrate, I can't imagine it would ever wear out). But those would be some expensive screwdrivers.

The prices don't seem completely insane: http://www.wihatools.com/700seri/700_DuraBit.htm

But Expensive, yes.

[eKretz]

Nice, I didn't know those were being sold by a major producer. $9 per interchangeable Torx tip is a bit hefty for sure, but if they last forever it's not so bad. The way tools disappear in my house I'd have to lock them in a safe, heh.

[PedroDaGr8]

I hadn't seen this company mentioned yet. Moody Tools, they are Made in the USA (RI if I remember correctly) Picked these up off of ebay for quite cheap ($5+~$2-3 shipping, I can post a link to the seller if interested). Its their POLLICIS ESD-safe series.



Oddly enough, I noticed while at Sears that there are two types of Craftsman precision screw drivers. One type I have a strong feeling is a moody tools rebrand (as the construction appears VERY similar and it says Made In the USA on the back). The other appears to be Genera Tool rebrands (says Made In China) and it looks similar to the moody stuff as well. If you look closely though its much more cheapily made.

I tried taking some pictures but they didn't come out well. As I'm not a machinist I lack the ability to describe things but I'll do my best. First off and most obvious, the black plating on the general tool stuff is MUCH thinner and cheaper.  Another striking feature is that all of the lines on the Moody bits are very crisp and super sharp. Clearly a very high precision machining. For example, there is a spot where  the bit reduces in to a more narrow dimension. The moody bits have a crisp delineations between each part. The GT bits almost look like they were "painted over" in that the delineations are not nearly as sharp. The part of the bit that inserts into the handle is also an area of difference.  The Moody bits are precise with many edges camfered, the GT tops are clearly almost unfinished with rough edges ets. Lastly, the Moody tips are thinner at the end with a more nicely scuplted edge.

[PedroDaGr8]

For some reason it keeps erroring out when I try to edit. Not sure if its my PC or what.


Anways I forgot to mention the sizes with the screw driver. It is flat head 0.100", 0.080", 0.070" and 0.055" and a sharp awl.

[nanofrog]

Is made in the USA stuff any good these days? It has kind of a bad rep here, mostly due to Black & Decker / DeWalt and American cars that seem to need an incredible amount of maintenance.

It depends. Some is junk (i.e. cost cutting gone too far), some isn't.

Moody is decent from what I've had access to, but it didn't feel all that comfortable to me (very small diameter handles). YMMV though (fit your hands better), so if you see a Moody set you're interested in, it might be worth a try. They do offer a good value IMHO. BTW, the blue anodized finish can wear off (aluminum knurled handles), leaving your fingers blue.

[John Coloccia]

Is made in the USA stuff any good these days? It has kind of a bad rep here, mostly due to Black & Decker / DeWalt and American cars that seem to need an incredible amount of maintenance.

Black and Decker is JUNK, and has been for a VERY long time...very long indeed.  DeWalt is extremely hit or miss and generally speaking not made in the USA anymore.  Porter Cable has turned into nearly complete junk.  For example, I have a Made In USA Porter Cable router that is nearly 20 years old and is still going strong.  Much production has moved to Mexico or elsewhere, and these routers now chew through bearings like there's no tomorrow.  This happened when they were taken over.  They decided that PC would be the low end line, and Dewalt would be the contractor tools.  Too bad Dewalt makes so much crap too.  I don't feel good recommending either brand anymore.  I take it on a tool by tool basis.  For example, the Porter Cable 7518 motor is STILL good, as far as I know.  Their other routers are absolute junk.  The Porter Cable large drill press (I forget the model now) is really not terrible, though there's STILL no way to tighten the quill for play and no quill lock, but at least most of them don't have massive play right out of the box, unlike some others I can mention.

Why do you think so many have switched to Festool, despite the high costs?  For people like me, who do this kind of stuff for a living, we just simply can't afford to replace a $200 tool every 4 months.  I need a $600 tool that lasts 5 years.

Much of the Made in USA stuff is still very good, but there's very little of that to be had.  Honestly, it's very embarrassing that so many of "our" brands are such junk.  As far as cars go, though, easily the lousiest car I've ever owned, at least as far as maintenance is concerned, was my Volvo S60.  I've never owned a vehicle that spent SOOOO much time at the mechanic and that was so expensive to fix.  So many electrical problems too...shameful.  I couldn't keep the little yellow "Service!" light out for more than a month at a time, and I owned that stupid thing for 5 years.  So far the two best I've owned was my Subaru (we immediately went out and bought another once I drove it into the ground) and my Dodge Durango.  I put nearly 200,000 miles on both with very little headaches.

[staxquad]

Is made in the USA stuff any good these days? It has kind of a bad rep here, mostly due to Black & Decker / DeWalt and American cars that seem to need an incredible amount of maintenance.

Black and Decker is JUNK, and has been for a VERY long time...very long indeed.  DeWalt is extremely hit or miss and generally speaking not made in the USA anymore.  Porter Cable has turned into nearly complete junk.  For example, I have a Made In USA Porter Cable router that is nearly 20 years old and is still going strong.  Much production has moved to Mexico or elsewhere, and these routers now chew through bearings like there's no tomorrow.  This happened when they were taken over.  They decided that PC would be the low end line, and Dewalt would be the contractor tools.  Too bad Dewalt makes so much crap too.  I don't feel good recommending either brand anymore.  I take it on a tool by tool basis.  For example, the Porter Cable 7518 motor is STILL good, as far as I know.  Their other routers are absolute junk.  The Porter Cable large drill press (I forget the model now) is really not terrible, though there's STILL no way to tighten the quill for play and no quill lock, but at least most of them don't have massive play right out of the box, unlike some others I can mention.

Why do you think so many have switched to Festool, despite the high costs?  For people like me, who do this kind of stuff for a living, we just simply can't afford to replace a $200 tool every 4 months.  I need a $600 tool that lasts 5 years.

Much of the Made in USA stuff is still very good, but there's very little of that to be had.  Honestly, it's very embarrassing that so many of "our" brands are such junk.  As far as cars go, though, easily the lousiest car I've ever owned, at least as far as maintenance is concerned, was my Volvo S60.  I've never owned a vehicle that spent SOOOO much time at the mechanic and that was so expensive to fix.  So many electrical problems too...shameful.  I couldn't keep the little yellow "Service!" light out for more than a month at a time, and I owned that stupid thing for 5 years.  So far the two best I've owned was my Subaru (we immediately went out and bought another once I drove it into the ground) and my Dodge Durango.  I put nearly 200,000 miles on both with very little headaches.

DeWalt is owned by Stanley/Black and Decker, for the occasional hobbyist on a budget tools.  Milwaukee are professional tradesmen tools made in the USA.  I have their Sawzall; light, nimble, powerful, well designed; the DeWalt is atrocious.   

Chris King is made in the USA, high end bike hubs, headsets, the absolute best in performance and durability (and expensive).  Used to be in Northern California,  then moved to Oregon.
Chris King didn't sell out.


As for the screwdriver sets, I have Wiha and Cadik (Taiwan), with Wiha coming up on top.

[eKretz]

That hub looks like a quality, well-made bit of kit. I wonder if there isn't a bit of a semantics issue in that ad though. They "make" their own bearings? I find this a bit hard to believe. Perhaps they "assemble" their own bearings. To me at least, saying "make" means they are machining and grinding the balls and races as WELL as doing assembly. That is not a cheap process, and the machinery costs to do so make it virtually impossible for anyone who doesn't sell millions of ball bearings a day to get the economy of scale that would be necessary to offer a decent price.

[saturation]

If the drivers are truly made in USA, not simple the handle,  I'd give it a look see, but its oddly very cheap to be made in USA.  Is it real or counterfeit?  Compare Moody's actual prices.

http://www.moodytools.com/MTI_Products_4.html

As an side, if its truly Made in USA its likely good to very good quality, but USA brands alone are iffy since they can be made anywhere in the world.  You have to play items not made in USA by ear.  They branders can't fake 'made in USA' without worrying about the CPSC or the state attorney general going after them for false advertising or claims. 

I hadn't seen this company mentioned yet. Moody Tools, they are Made in the USA (RI if I remember correctly) Picked these up off of ebay for quite cheap ($5+~$2-3 shipping, I can post a link to the seller if interested). Its their POLLICIS ESD-safe series.

[staxquad]

That hub looks like a quality, well-made bit of kit. I wonder if there isn't a bit of a semantics issue in that ad though. They "make" their own bearings? I find this a bit hard to believe. Perhaps they "assemble" their own bearings. To me at least, saying "make" means they are machining and grinding the balls and races as WELL as doing assembly. That is not a cheap process, and the machinery costs to do so make it virtually impossible for anyone who doesn't sell millions of ball bearings a day to get the economy of scale that would be necessary to offer a decent price.

Is made in the USA stuff any good these days?

Made in The USA
100% of our manufacturing & assembly is done in the United States

Sourcing
We source metal stock only from high-quality US and Canadian mills with verified responsible manufacturing and labor practices.

They make their own races out of surgical steel and assemble the bearings with high grade balls.  All my Campagnolo headsets (road) would index (notch, even after just one year), but my 2 Chris King headsets (both mtb), after 12 and 14  years of use still feel like new, no indexing.  They are a high end machine shop, working with stainless steel, titanium and aluminium,  doing anodizing.  They are the BEST in the World at making hubs and headsets (and tools for their maintenance).   

http://chrisking.com/

A bearing blank is made from a bar of stainless steel in the time it has taken you to read this paragraph.

[Spectreman]

I have a USA made General Tools driver set, seems to be well made.
I have actually purchased a lot of second hand quality tools over the past year, all made in the UK or USA.
Stuff that was made 20 years or more ago, but very well made.
Chris.

[eKretz]

That hub looks like a quality, well-made bit of kit. I wonder if there isn't a bit of a semantics issue in that ad though. They "make" their own bearings? I find this a bit hard to believe. Perhaps they "assemble" their own bearings. To me at least, saying "make" means they are machining and grinding the balls and races as WELL as doing assembly. That is not a cheap process, and the machinery costs to do so make it virtually impossible for anyone who doesn't sell millions of ball bearings a day to get the economy of scale that would be necessary to offer a decent price.

Is made in the USA stuff any good these days?

Made in The USA
100% of our manufacturing & assembly is done in the United States

Sourcing
We source metal stock only from high-quality US and Canadian mills with verified responsible manufacturing and labor practices.

They make their own races out of surgical steel and assemble the bearings with high grade balls.  All my Campagnolo headsets (road) would index (notch, even after just one year), but my 2 Chris King headsets (both mtb), after 12 and 14  years of use still feel like new, no indexing.  They are a high end machine shop, working with stainless steel, titanium and aluminium,  doing anodizing.  They are the BEST in the World at making hubs and headsets (and tools for their maintenance).   

http://chrisking.com/

A bearing blank is made from a bar of stainless steel in the time it has taken you to read this paragraph.

OK, they definitely make the races, looks like they are buying the balls though. Still a lot further than many places go though. I checked the website link; on the whole, I'm impressed.

[jamesp15]

<snipped>
DeWalt is owned by Stanley/Black and Decker, for the occasional hobbyist on a budget tools.  Milwaukee are professional tradesmen tools made in the USA.  I have their Sawzall; light, nimble, powerful, well designed; the DeWalt is atrocious.   
<snipped>

Milwaukee tools were once US made, like B&D/PC/DeWalt...  but not anymore..  They are mostly made in china now and they do some rebrands as well.  They are now owned by "Techtronic Industries" who also own Ryobi and AEG.

Most contractors around here use DeWalt or Makita tools (US, Washington DC area), you occasionally see Rigid tools as well, almost never see Milwaukee anymore, they just dont hold up like they used to.  B&D are definately home-owner grade tools.

[SeanB]

I have some Bosch tools, and when asked if I lend them out the reply is generally  " Yes, but they come with an attachment, ME" as I like to have them around for a while. Oldest is a Miller Falls small drill, still going after a few decades of service. Then a few really old B&Decker drills, a collection of old and some cheap angle grinders of assorted makes, a few power saws and then a nice Bosch SDS drill I use a lot. The SDS drill was recently in for repair, and was fixable, just had to wait 2 months for the spares, but they do have spares backup for a lot of the power tools they sell. Reason for the repair is because I did not do the general rule the once.

[staxquad]

<snipped>
DeWalt is owned by Stanley/Black and Decker, for the occasional hobbyist on a budget tools.  Milwaukee are professional tradesmen tools made in the USA.  I have their Sawzall; light, nimble, powerful, well designed; the DeWalt is atrocious.   
<snipped>

Milwaukee tools were once US made, like B&D/PC/DeWalt...  but not anymore..  They are mostly made in china now and they do some rebrands as well.  They are now owned by "Techtronic Industries" who also own Ryobi and AEG.

Most contractors around here use DeWalt or Makita tools (US, Washington DC area), you occasionally see Rigid tools as well, almost never see Milwaukee anymore, they just dont hold up like they used to.  B&D are definately home-owner grade tools.

"2008: Techtronic opens the most modern manufacturing facility in all of China for power tools; closes plants in Arkansas and Kociusko, Mississippi."

Thankfully I bought my SAWZALL before 2008.

Accelerated off-shoring.  Still remember that free trade debate between Gore and Perot.  Perot said jobs would be lost while Gore promised more wealth (for the rich).   Canada got sucked into NAFTA.   

Well...at least  Chris King didn't sell out.

My Makita Driver and Drill set says Makita Corporation Anjo, Aichi, Japan MK Made in China.

A lot of  SNAP ON tools are now Made in China, still with an inflated price.

Extracting wealth out of low wages.

[M. András]

Hitachi tools still seem to be made in Japan. Bosch are still seem to have factories in Germany too.

and in hungary where the blue industrial tools roll out too with a sticker made in switcherland yeah right

[nanofrog]

I've an 18V Li-ion Bosch drill that's made in Switzerland that has too much run-out, and it doesn't have a lot of hours on it. Had it repaired under warranty, and it's already done the same thing. Works well otherwise.

[Napalm2002]

I have wiha and I have wera and xcelite. Hell I just love tools. Buy em all! Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

[M. András]

I've an 18V Li-ion Bosch drill that's made in Switzerland that has too much run-out, and it doesn't have a lot of hours on it. Had it repaired under warranty, and it's already done the same thing. Works well otherwise.

maybe time for you to take it apart and put some quality bearing in the shaft support? i have a skil masters 18v li-ion drill their biggest in the cordless range it took a sideway twisting during drilling to enlarge a hole in a plate for the doorlock and it rumbles the drill since that i dont know what the hell is the material the shaft the chuck and the bearings are made of but its some shit. a 20year old 710watt kres drill took more than this during its years

[algorath]

wiha and wera have great tools. can´t go wrong with german high quality screwdrivers.

[M. András]

as a mention onthe wiha tools again. not a precision set but does anyone have a shop nearby or knows one which hold their slimvario insulated bits? i need the ph/sl xeno bits both sizes it only came with pz bits

[bdivi]

Just my two cents on the brand/no-name debate.

I have been using this one for more than two years http://dx.com/p/precision-screw-drivers-toolkit-for-electronics-diy-45-piece-set-36203. No problems so far and the steal and hardening seems reasonable.
I also own German Wiha system 4 and Felo. Wiha has been a bit of a disappointment - definitely not what I expected. The slotted bits bent easily.

As someone was suggesting earlier the best slotted precision tip I had was from carbon steal nail - just needed to grind it to shape.

Cheers

[M. András]

Just my two cents on the brand/no-name debate.

I have been using this one for more than two years http://dx.com/p/precision-screw-drivers-toolkit-for-electronics-diy-45-piece-set-36203. No problems so far and the steal and hardening seems reasonable.
I also own German Wiha system 4 and Felo. Wiha has been a bit of a disappointment - definitely not what I expected. The slotted bits bent easily.

As someone was suggesting earlier the best slotted precision tip I had was from carbon steal nail - just needed to grind it to shape.

Cheers

i damaged on first use a system 6 ph1 blade. the damn thing slipped out and over a screw and here comes rounded edges

[Frost]

I received my Wera Kraftform Micro ESD precision screwdriver set today
and I am very impressed by the excellent build quality.

You can use 4mm Halfmoon or 4mm HIOS Bits with the bitholder.

[HighVoltage]

Bosch are still seem to have factories in Germany too.

If it comes to Bosch, many tools are now made in the Eastern European countries and NOT in Germany.
The tools can be divided in to the BLUE series and the GREEN series.
Do not buy the green stuff, as it is junk.
The blue series electric tools are professional tools and good quality. (Most of them)

If it comes to ultra small German made and precision hand drills, take a look at Festool. They have one small drill that is called the CXS.
It comes with accessories in a really great tray. I have found this to be the best you can get.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Festool-Festo-Akku-Bohrschrauber-CXS-Li-1-5-Set-Nr-564271-Akkuschrauber-/131051134755

The list of add on bits and gadgets is really long
https://www.festool.de/Produkte/Pages/Produktdetailansicht.aspx?pid=564252&name=Akku-Bohrschrauber-CXS-Li-1-5-Plus

I don't think that there is anything, that comes close to this quality.
Far superior to the small Bosch drills.

 

[kripton2035]

I have the previous festool model from may be 10 years
still working fine, the nimh batteries may need an exchange, but he they are still working enough long.
and trust me they have an enormous hours count running time ...

[romantronixlab]

This one will look finely nice on a workbench 

[PedroDaGr8]

KC Tool has a two of the Wera Precision sets on sale:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/wera-screwdrivers-sale/

[nazcalines]

I have tried Wiha Picofinish and Wera.  I like the overall feel of the Wiha Picofinish, but the spin top has noticeably more friction that Wera.  I also like that at 1.8mm and below, the Wiha Picofinish have a thinner body for less torque.  I'll probably continue to buy Wera for greater than 2mm and Wiha Picofinish for 1.8mm and smaller.

For phillips, I've found the Moody JIS 4 piece set to be nice.  Very good fit working on various old Japanese lenses, and JIS will work in phillips screws.

[elgonzo]

I know Dave and others amongst us love their Wiha screwdrivers very much, but there is no reason anymore to not share this love with your wife or gf.
Because Wiha understands the plight of the modern urban woman.

And no, that is no late April Fools joke. Reputable distributors (like Reichelt in Germany) sell it.

[markce]

#1: PB
#2: Felo

[PedroDaGr8]

Just picked up these bad boys on ebay.  100% Made in Germany,  Wittron,  the electronics line from Witte. They feel and look incredibly precise and nice.

[nanofrog]

Just picked up these bad boys on ebay.  100% Made in Germany,  Wittron,  the electronics line from Witte. They feel and look incredibly precise and nice.

Nice. 

[monochrome]

This comprehensive set from Germany never lets me down:

50 piece Wiha "Master Technician" set

-slotted 0.8 - 4.0mm
-Phillips #000 - #1
-Nut 1.5 - 5.5mm
-Torx T1 - T10
-Hex 0.7 - 3.0mm
-Hex inch 0.028 - 5/32"
-Chip lifter




The only turnoff for some people might be the >250 usd price tag. I think it's worth it! I work on lots of small mechanical stuff, not just electronics. If it's just electronics you will probably get by with a more modest set.

[elektronchika]

Has any one tried the Tekton 2841 every bit set? The problem is it can be found only in US

http://www.tektontools.com/All_Products/2841

I think it has almost every possible bit in it

[monochrome]

Has any one tried the Tekton 2841 every bit set? The problem is it can be found only in US

http://www.tektontools.com/All_Products/2841

I think it has almost every possible bit in it

Steel quality and fit and finish are probably very much inferior compared to German or US brands, but for occasional use it might be good enough. It looks to have nice variety but bits have one very big disadvantage: you can't use them for screws at the bottom of deep holes.

[nanofrog]

It looks to have nice variety but bits have one very big disadvantage: you can't use them for screws at the bottom of deep holes.

I can attest to this being a problem from time to time.

Ended up with Wiha's Drive-Loc series for this reason (can be adjusted so they go deeper than their standard precision screwdrivers, and cannot slide back into the handle). Takes up a lot less space than dedicated drivers, so useful on a messy bench, as well as a field kit. Blades usually have 2 ends, so works out to ~5USD per at most.

[Kjelt]

This comprehensive set from Germany never lets me down:

It looks like those drivers are so close to eachother that if you need a specific size you have to search and not grab blindly the correct driver, how does this work for you in practice?

[monochrome]

This comprehensive set from Germany never lets me down:

It looks like those drivers are so close to eachother that if you need a specific size you have to search and not grab blindly the correct driver, how does this work for you in practice?

I know which driver is located where, I order them by type. Geen probleem Kjelt 

[jetwolfk2]

im old and manual is not the way for me anymore with arthritis, do you guys use any automatic precision screwdrivers

[saturation]

I use a powered screwdriver for all work except precision only because most tasks require a delicate touch, but no reason you should not.  Better powered than not working at all. 





Clones:

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-lighted-cordless-power-precision-screwdriver/p-00936637000P

http://www.amazon.com/General-Tools-Instruments-500-Screwdriver/dp/B002XZLTQO

im old and manual is not the way for me anymore with arthritis, do you guys use any automatic precision screwdrivers

[Kjelt]

Ended up with Wiha's Drive-Loc series for this reason.

I just bought this system6 set but now I am reading through the whole catalogue I thing I better had ordered the system4 set because those are the precision system going as low as T1 and T2.

[all_repair]

Thanks.  Got myself 2 sets of "General" battery powered precision screwdriver last week when Amazon was running a sale at less than $9 each.  Not too powerful but shall be good enough for a lot of work.  The small size makes it very useful as it can be easily carried around, and also can be stuck to a magnetic bar and so make it easy to locate, and store.   Other types are still needed, but this one is a winner to me.

[nanofrog]

Ended up with Wiha's Drive-Loc series for this reason.

I just bought this system6 set but now I am reading through the whole catalogue I thing I better had ordered the system4 set because those are the precision system going as low as T1 and T2.

System 4 is very useful, and gets used often (precision drivers as you mentioned).

System 6 is for more common sizes such as Philips #2, which gets a lot of use as I have a habit of burying my dedicated driver (likely Pozidrive #2 in the EU). It's also the one that gets the most driver types, including security drivers. Aside from the Philips, the security Torx get used the most, as they can be used on standard Torx screws.

Given all of the drivers available that aren't in System 4, I wouldn't consider your System 6 purchase a mistake. The mistake was actually not buying the System 4 to go with it.   

[Kjelt]

  a mistake that can be fixed 

[jetwolfk2]

I use a powered screwdriver for all work except precision only because most tasks require a delicate touch, but no reason you should not.  Better powered than not working at all. 





Clones:

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-lighted-cordless-power-precision-screwdriver/p-00936637000P

http://www.amazon.com/General-Tools-Instruments-500-Screwdriver/dp/B002XZLTQO

im old and manual is not the way for me anymore with arthritis, do you guys use any automatic precision screwdrivers

i tried that and it didnt have enough power to be useful for anything plus it was slow so i could use manual faster

did you have different results

[saturation]

IMHO powered drivers just save my hands from injury, arthritis or RSD.  It can be as fast as hands, but why wear my wrist out?  Use the driver for the repetitive twisting task but after hand tightening or loosening to insure its not over-tight or to prevent the driver from stripping the head of soft screws, such as on cellphones.

There is a mod you can do to increase the speed, by removing the reduction gear:



There is a Wiha version that is expensive and not well received:

http://www.amazon.com/Wiha-75989-System-Powered-40-Piece/dp/B007HGNXF4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1403467360&sr=8-1&keywords=wiha+powered+precision+driver

If you want more speed you can get a 1/4" Hex Drive Power precision Driver Bit adapter to use on regular size powered drivers:

http://www.amazon.com/Moody-Tools-Chromium-Vanadium-Screwdriver/dp/B007NLP9AU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1403469107&sr=8-1&keywords=Moody+Tools+Adapter+Set

I find long neck drivers more versatile than short stocky hex drivers, since many devices have screws recessed in the chassis.

i tried that and it didnt have enough power to be useful for anything plus it was slow so i could use manual faster
did you have different results

[multiJ]

Just picked up these bad boys on ebay.  100% Made in Germany,  Wittron,  the electronics line from Witte. They feel and look incredibly precise and nice.

This Witte Wittron set certainly looks very nice. How do the tips hold up after (any) use please?
I have used Wiha Precision (these with the older handles), Wiha Picofinish (latest handles with the "curve"), and Facom for electronics (bought approx. a year ago), and the tips in the first set (Wiha Precision) seem to hold up better than the rest.

[neslekkim]

Ended up with Wiha's Drive-Loc series for this reason.

I just bought this system6 set but now I am reading through the whole catalogue I thing I better had ordered the system4 set because those are the precision system going as low as T1 and T2.

System 4 is very useful, and gets used often (precision drivers as you mentioned).

System 6 is for more common sizes such as Philips #2, which gets a lot of use as I have a habit of burying my dedicated driver (likely Pozidrive #2 in the EU). It's also the one that gets the most driver types, including security drivers. Aside from the Philips, the security Torx get used the most, as they can be used on standard Torx screws.

Given all of the drivers available that aren't in System 4, I wouldn't consider your System 6 purchase a mistake. The mistake was actually not buying the System 4 to go with it.   

After reading what you say about system 4 and system 6, it seemed as if it was just two prepackaged sets, but looking around it exists many different sets of each?

What is the difference of system4 and 6?, size of bits, and handle?

[robrenz]

System 4 = 4mm hex for the bit bodys
System 6 = 6mm hex for the bit bodys

[neslekkim]

System 4 = 4mm hex for the bit bodys
System 6 = 6mm hex for the bit bodys

Aha, 4 is what they also call micro bits?, and 6, is that somewhat smaller than the normal 1/4" bits?

[robrenz]

6mm = .2362"
1/4" = .250"
difference = .35mm or .0138"

[nanofrog]

After reading what you say about system 4 and system 6, it seemed as if it was just two prepackaged sets, but looking around it exists many different sets of each?

What is the difference of system4 and 6?, size of bits, and handle?

One set in Drive-Loc System 4 (can get singles, but it's more costly). Multiple sets in Drive-Loc System VI, as well as blades and handles that don't come in sets at all (the big master set comes closest).

Aha, 4 is what they also call micro bits?, and 6, is that somewhat smaller than the normal 1/4" bits?

Yes, micro bit is synonymous with what they term as System 4 in terms of shaft diameter.

Biggest difference with the Drive-Loc (vs. standard System 4), is both the longer length and dimples on the flat sides of the hex (locking detents). Physical shaft diameter (point to point on the hex) of the blades is the same respectively. No equivalent non-dimpled version in System 6.

Drive-Loc 6 will not work with standard 1/4" bits. They actually fit inside the round part of the hole/sleeve, but do not engage the hex pattern (just spin in the handle). Pressing the dimple release button/collar doesn't solve this (don't have any true 6.0mm shafts to try other than the Drive-Loc). I expect most 3rd party bits are actually 1/4" (0.250"/6.3mm) anyway, but pay attention to below, as there may be a potential issue that does exist with System 4 (read on).

System 4 OTOH, standard 1" long 4mm shaft bits I have will (Kronus brand). Meaning they engage the hex, and will turn a screw. More importantly however, if you push the dimple release collar and push on the bit (overcome the springs on the detent balls), you can potentially lose it down the handle. And if there's not enough poking out to get hold of it with pliers or something, you'd have to drill the handle to retrieve the bit (going from the opposite end should still allow the handle to function, though cosmetically unappealing).

As it happens, Wiha sells adapter blades, such as one for 1/4" bits for System VI. There's at least a 4mm standard bit adapter blade that I recall seeing in the EU catalog (not sure if there are any others). Not absolutely necessary with System 4, but it would be safer (no way to lose the bit down the handle if you're not thinking/distracted).

There's even a 1/4' drive socket blade for System VI (discontinued selling it in North America, but still available in the EU catalog last I saw). Nice little cost saver IMHO, as it can eliminate the need for most nut drivers if you have the appropriate 1/4" drive sockets (I find mine very useful).

[PedroDaGr8]

Just picked up these bad boys on ebay.  100% Made in Germany,  Wittron,  the electronics line from Witte. They feel and look incredibly precise and nice.

This Witte Wittron set certainly looks very nice. How do the tips hold up after (any) use please?
I have used Wiha Precision (these with the older handles), Wiha Picofinish (latest handles with the "curve"), and Facom for electronics (bought approx. a year ago), and the tips in the first set (Wiha Precision) seem to hold up better than the rest.

I actually took apart a pair of galaxy s3 phones last weekend.  I must say having a nice set of freely spinning precision screwdrivers made a surprising difference. The motion of these was very fluid with no sticking or rough points. By spinning I'm referring to how the upper red/white(or gray) section spins independently of the yellow body. It's incredibly fluid and smooth in rotation.  We have all used cheap screwdrivers where the rotation binds or feels rough at points. These move smooth as butter. It made applying vertical force very easy while rotating the body with my other hand.

After use there is a bit of maring(sp?) to the black oxide finish because of a few stripped screws, that someone else mangled, but that happens a lot with black oxide tips anyways . More importantly the underlying metal, beneath the black coat , appears completely unfazed. How they last long term only time will tell but I'm very pleased so far.


A few images that I stepped to take of the #00 tip. Not easy with a camera phone but I tried to angle it to show how there appears to be no wear to the base metal (the lines are still straight with no bowing in).

[multiJ]

Thank you for the comments and the pics

[PedroDaGr8]

Thank you for the comments and the pics

Since that post I have assembled and/or disassembled a dozens (if not hundreds) of screws using that set. It's behaving beautifully, in fact the more I use it the more I am liking it. Still no signs of wear on the metal and not much further wear on the black oxide coating. I haven't used the flat heads at all yet, but I have used the philips extensively.

[all_repair]

The motor was found to be 5V rated so I tried using  a Li + NiMH AAA.  I have been using for a week now, so far the motor and the gear are holding well, and the speed has increased quite a bit. 

Update: I have burned 2 of the motors using using Li + NiMH combo, and the torque was too much for the gears also.   Trying out with 1 Li and a dummy cell (using a 4mm Banana metal body).

[tridentsx]

Anyone has this set of ESD screwdrivers that are american made ?
I actually looked at the Wiha set and the ergonomics are not that good. Looking at the plastic casting you could see the split lines and it just didn't give me the german engineering wibe.

I haven't used moody tools before so I really don't know how their quality is?


http://carkart.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2147062569&gclid=CjwKEAjwsdafBRC2rYuDuYXk2TESJACsUN_uXqoozWnDdZ1B0f-sWyHnTm4csEyCiUL5o2f9XTZvxxoCj8bw_wcB

[nanofrog]

I haven't used moody tools before so I really don't know how their quality is?

Quite decent actually IME (blade fit). Do watch their blue anodized aluminum handles though, as it can come off on your fingers.

Couple of alternative sources (also less expensive for that particular set):
Moody Tools 73-0399 @ Amazon (has some reviews)
Moody Tools 73-0399 @ All-Spec (should come out to ever so slightly cheaper than Amazon after shipping)

Some complaints of duplication on this particular kit in the Amazon reviews, so pay attention to the kit contents carefully for your purposes.

[PedroDaGr8]

Personally, I find the moody ones to be well made but super thin. I have the simple flat tip ESD set. The machining of the bits is top notch (especially compared to the cheap General Tools chinese knockoff) but found the handle to be too thin for my large hands. Having used the aforementioned Witte and Wera quite a bit recently, I like both of these way more. The Wera have tips that fit the screw head a bit better than the Witte but the Witte hands down has the nicer handle (it is so incredibly smooth and effortless I don't know how else to describe it but it feels so nice).

[nanofrog]

Personally, I find the moody ones to be well made but super thin. I have the simple flat tip ESD set. The machining of the bits is top notch (especially compared to the cheap General Tools chinese knockoff) but found the handle to be too thin for my large hands. Having used the aforementioned Witte and Wera quite a bit recently, I like both of these way more. The Wera have tips that fit the screw head a bit better than the Witte but the Witte hands down has the nicer handle (it is so incredibly smooth and effortless I don't know how else to describe it but it feels so nice).

I like my Wiha Drive-Loc handles I have better than Moody as well.

Find they're more comfortable to use than Wiha's standard precision screwdrivers, especially when you really need to apply some torque (System 4 specifically, as System 6 is what you'd find on a typical Philips #2). They're more expensive than the classic line however (buying in sets wherever possible), and are a bit restricted on a few of the specialty profiles (missing Pentalobe last I checked for example). No idea on the Pico style handles.

[LaurentR]

Reviving this old thread.
I took the plunge and bought a bunch of Wiha Precision screwdrivers.
Shopping around, I bumped into this series of home-made stands from KC Tool in the US:
http://www.kctoolco.com/Storage-Organization-Wiha-Knipex-Wera-Gedore-s/3486.htm?searching=Y&sort=5&cat=3486&show=33&page=1&brand=KC%20Tool

They have 5x5 and 5x10 models in natural aluminum or black anodized aluminum finishes. I just bough the 5x10 model and it is very nice. Very sturdy and hefty and perfect for the Wiha set, but it fits other brands as shown on the picture.
They are a nice alternative for the 92190 50-piece set with stand. They also come in 5x5 for those who only want a few sets, which I think is a pretty common situation.

I was about to get the 5x5 and just a slotted+Phillips set, but found a good price on the 92191 51-piece without stand and went with the 5x10 instead (and I am even getting an additional 5x5 and a few more sets...).

[neslekkim]

Finally I ordered some of these tools, got these:
http://www.amazon.de/dp/B001JG9DPW/ref=pe_386171_38075861_TE_item
http://www.amazon.de/dp/B001JG9DC0/ref=pe_386171_38075861_TE_item
http://www.amazon.de/dp/B001JG7HOQ/ref=pe_386171_38075861_TE_item

Got it today, looks like very good tools, I found it was kinda cheaper to buy kits like this, instead of singles without the handle.
Not so sure if these wrap folders are a good way of keeping them, kinda difficult to find the ones to use, but I guess it doesn't exists other stands/holders for these.

The system4 was lot smaller than I expected, will be interresting to see how well these holds up to some abuse.

[nanofrog]

Finally I ordered some of these tools, got these:
http://www.amazon.de/dp/B001JG9DPW/ref=pe_386171_38075861_TE_item
http://www.amazon.de/dp/B001JG9DC0/ref=pe_386171_38075861_TE_item
http://www.amazon.de/dp/B001JG7HOQ/ref=pe_386171_38075861_TE_item

Got it today, looks like very good tools, I found it was kinda cheaper to buy kits like this, instead of singles without the handle.
Not so sure if these wrap folders are a good way of keeping them, kinda difficult to find the ones to use, but I guess it doesn't exists other stands/holders for these.

Nice.  Definitely cheaper in kits than singles. 

Mine came with the green pouches (Wiha 91118), which only allow you to see a single end, so makes finding the right blade even harder.  But they're intended to be primarily used in field work, so being able to save both space and weight take precedence. The roll included in your sets seem better thought out to me, as you can see both ends, and each blade is captive (multiples flop around in the pocket on mine; the flap keeps them from sliding out).

If you're using them often on a bench, you can use trays or make your own (i.e. one slot per blade routed in plastic or wood).

On a side note, there's a 1/4" square drive adapter blade for using sockets (Wiha 7803). If you already have 1/4"dr. sockets, you can do away with the nut driver blades (return them for a refund). Using it with deep sockets fit shafts better too.  This was so common here in the US, they stopped selling it here (I got lucky and found one of the last ones left here  ). Could put ~ 65EUR back in your pocket. 

The 7802 Bit Adapter might be of interest as well (allows you to use standard, less expensive 1" or 2.5" long 1/4" hex bits, such as security profiles for example).

The system4 was lot smaller than I expected, will be interresting to see how well these holds up to some abuse.

FWIW, I've had mine a few years, and they're holding up well.  The colored paint does wear off (rather easily in fact), but that's not a big deal IMHO. And you can repaint with small bottles of model paint or nail polish if you wish (it does help hold screws IME).

[Kjelt]

Yeah they are very nice also to use mobile for repairs at friends/family.
I use the sys4 more then the 6, also tip you can order ESD proof handles for these systems.
The hexnut I was unaware they had them, thanks order is on the way

[neslekkim]

If you're using them often on a bench, you can use trays or make your own (i.e. one slot per blade routed in plastic or wood).

Yes, tray would be nice, I should had drawers so I could arrange some tools, I guess they will go in an coffee mug soon though

On a side note, there's a 1/4" square drive adapter blade for using sockets (Wiha 7803). If you already have 1/4"dr. sockets, you can do away with the nut driver blades (return them for a refund). Using it with deep sockets fit shafts better too.  This was so common here in the US, they stopped selling it here (I got lucky and found one of the last ones left here  ). Could put ~ 65EUR back in your pocket. 

The 7802 Bit Adapter might be of interest as well (allows you to use standard, less expensive 1" or 2.5" long 1/4" hex bits, such as security profiles for example).

Yes, I was thinking about getting those as well, reason I didn't now, is that I don't have good socketsets, I haven some very old cheap ones, and those have kinda thick material, so I was looking for some that have thinner material, and doesn't collide with things around, like screwing the nuts on dsub connectors, and so on.
Same with the bit driver, I have one good (although cheap, but have been with me since '91 or something), but I couldn't use it in deep holes for unscreewing torx (was fighting my washingmachine), so instead of buying separate torx screwdrivers I bought this so I know I can reach deep ones as well.

The system4 was lot smaller than I expected, will be interresting to see how well these holds up to some abuse.

FWIW, I've had mine a few years, and they're holding up well.  The colored paint does wear off (rather easily in fact), but that's not a big deal IMHO. And you can repaint with small bottles of model paint or nail polish if you wish (it does help hold screws IME).

Ah good, have destroyed a couple of those cheaper "precisions" kit, that sells for $5-$10, this one looks way better, and hope the material is strong.
Didn't check if these are magnetic yet, but that's an easy fix.

[nanofrog]

Yes, tray would be nice, I should had drawers so I could arrange some tools, I guess they will go in an coffee mug soon though

Some time back, I saw a post by robrenz where he used some inexpensive microwave bacon trays for this purpose, and the idea has stuck with me (perfect for ~50mm high pencil drawers). Not large, so they'd fit inside a cigar box for example if need be.

There's also a site called Garage Journal where members have made their own by routing grooves in plastic cutting boards or wood. You could also use a magnetic strip if you're not working with anything sensitive, and would aid in holding screws as a side-benefit. 

Yes, I was thinking about getting those as well, reason I didn't now, is that I don't have good socket sets, I haven some very old cheap ones, and those have kinda thick material, so I was looking for some that have thinner material, and doesn't collide with things around, like screwing the nuts on dsub connectors, and so on.
Same with the bit driver, I have one good (although cheap, but have been with me since '91 or something), but I couldn't use it in deep holes for unscreewing torx (was fighting my washingmachine), so instead of buying separate torx screwdrivers I bought this so I know I can reach deep ones as well.

FWIW, my 1/4" stuff is Craftsman (same as Armstrong), and they'll clear a D-sub shell. But there's plenty of other brands and COO's that are well made, and thin enough they should do for electronics work. One Taiwanese brand I can recommend is King Tony Pro (KT Pro); it's a professional brand that shouldn't break the bank (just not sure if it's available in your market). I'd have thought Facom and Beta would be reasonable in the EU market, but then I checked Amazon.de for pricing...  (Hazet and Gedore about caused my eyes to pop out of my head).

Ah good, have destroyed a couple of those cheaper "precisions" kit, that sells for $5-$10, this one looks way better, and hope the material is strong.
Didn't check if these are magnetic yet, but that's an easy fix.

I've not twisted a blade yet (they're hardened CVM), unlike some 1" bits.

As per the bit holder blade, it's magnetic. 

[rdl]

I just bought this Wiha #26190 (with free bonus pliers) set last week. I already had enough other stuff in the cart to qualify for the free shipping, so it was less than $20. I hope they turn out to be decent quality. I've been using one of those cheap sets that come in a plastic box for under $5.

http://www.amazon.com/Wiha-26190-Phillips-Screwdriver-Professional/dp/B00018AO0W/

[nanofrog]

I just bought this Wiha #26190 (with free bonus pliers) set last week. I already had enough other stuff in the cart to qualify for the free shipping, so it was less than $20. I hope they turn out to be decent quality. I've been using one of those cheap sets that come in a plastic box for under $5.

http://www.amazon.com/Wiha-26190-Phillips-Screwdriver-Professional/dp/B00018AO0W/

I don't think you'll be disappointed (I've the same set).    One heck of a bargain as well. 

If it matters to you, the screwdrivers are made in Germany, and the pliers in Vietnam, and all of it is well made. Just oil and work the plier joint until it moves freely, as mine were little tight out of the package (= zero slop in the joint  ).

[HighVoltage]

I made my own stand for all my WIHA tools.
It is 20mm thick plastic and I just drilled the right size holes, for perfectly fitting the screw drivers
This way, they are always at the same spot and easily to be found, especially the small torx drivers

[nowlan]

I just bought this Wiha #26190 (with free bonus pliers) set last week. I already had enough other stuff in the cart to qualify for the free shipping, so it was less than $20. I hope they turn out to be decent quality. I've been using one of those cheap sets that come in a plastic box for under $5.

http://www.amazon.com/Wiha-26190-Phillips-Screwdriver-Professional/dp/B00018AO0W/

Comments hint there are no pliers. Is image wrong?

[neslekkim]

I made my own stand for all my WIHA tools.
It is 20mm thick plastic and I just drilled the right size holes, for perfectly fitting the screw drivers
This way, they are always at the same spot and easily to be found, especially the small torx drivers

How often do you need to lift out everyone to find the one you need?, I see nutdrivers and hex are easier since you can see markings on top, or size on head, but for philips/pozi/flat?

[rdl]

Comments hint there are no pliers. Is image wrong?

I saw those comments. I made sure the description on my order included the "free bonus" part, and I did get the pliers with my set.

[ben_r_]

Bumping this old thread! So Dave, what did you end up going with?

[amitchell]

Another vote for PB Swiss. They are tool porn.

[ez24]

Bumping this old thread! So Dave, what did you end up going with?

So old links do not work anymore

I wonder if they have Harbor Freight down under ? They sell um.   

[LaurentR]

BTW, great stand for the Wiha precision set. They have a 5x5 and a 10x5. They also work for (some) other brands.
https://www.kctoolco.com/kc-tool-aluminum-bench-top-stand-for-precision-tools-25-holes-tumbled-finish/

Full Wiha set in all its glory (it's mine  ):
https://germantoolblog.com/2016/01/08/the-best-precision-screwdriver-stand/

[Kjelt]

Beautifull set  ,  but where are the pozidrivs?   

[nanofrog]

Beautifull set  ,  but where are the pozidrivs?   

Why should we throw good money away on those useless things?    Seriously though, we don't see much of them in the US. In fact, I run into Tri-Wings more often than PZ.

[LaurentR]

Beautifull set  ,  but where are the pozidrivs?   

The 2 pozidrivs (#0, #1) are hiding somewhere in the back. I did purchase them separately, but I can't say I have used them 
If you look carefully, there is also the chip lifter (black cap), all the way in the back to the right.
Also in the middle back, red body, black cap the 1/4in bit holder (same as 1/4in nut holder but with magnet).

More useless that the pozidrivs yet is the column of 6 pentalobes, 4 of which are in use by Apple, the others being invented sizes with no matching screw in existence AFAIK. I have used the iPhone one.

[Chai]

Which would be generally more useful? Small handle ball end hex drivers or larger 'plus' size? Looking for a 1.5/2/2.5/3/4mm set

[Kjelt]

More useless that the pozidrivs yet is the column of 6 pentalobes, 4 of which are in use by Apple, the others being invented sizes with no matching screw in existence AFAIK. I have used the iPhone one.

Never even heard about those 

[steverino]

BTW, great stand for the Wiha precision set. They have a 5x5 and a 10x5. They also work for (some) other brands.
https://www.kctoolco.com/kc-tool-aluminum-bench-top-stand-for-precision-tools-25-holes-tumbled-finish/

Full Wiha set in all its glory (it's mine  ):
https://germantoolblog.com/2016/01/08/the-best-precision-screwdriver-stand/

I have a similar set of Wiha PicoFinish drivers for which I made a nice stepped wooden holder for.  I made 7 levels, each holding 8 drivers.   I laugh at myself because the  drivers I use consistently are 2 sizes of phillips and 2 sizes of flat screwdrivers.  I really only needed to make a holder for 4 drivers!  I suppose I'll eventually use some of the others.

[LaurentR]

Which would be generally more useful? Small handle ball end hex drivers or larger 'plus' size? Looking for a 1.5/2/2.5/3/4mm set

Depends what you need to do. Beyond the Wiha set linked above, I also have a few Wera hex drivers (0.05, 1/16, 1.5 in micro and the big 2.0, 2.5 and 3.0).
I really like the handle of the Wera drivers, big and micro. The micro drivers are similar to the Wiha Picofinish.

The big difference between the micro and the big drivers is how much torque you can apply. The Wiha or Wera micro are very nice to screw/unscrew small metal screws in metal holes or shallow plastic holes (laptop, phones...). They are made so that you can press on the top of the handle while quickly rotate the driver with the fingers. The variable diameter along the handle allows you to tune for speed or (some) torque. So they work well for speedy screwing/unscrewing at low torque and a safe lock due to the downward pressure on the top.

The big drivers are meant to be used with the whole wrist and the tops don't rotate. Basically for much higher torque applications like screws into deep plastic.

In my case, I use the Wiha set for most electronics need (appliances, laptops, phones...).
I use the Wera big drivers (and wish the 1.5 hex was available in big driver) for RC Cars. These tend to have long screws deep into untapped plastic holes and require substantial torque. The micro drivers are basically unusable in that application.

Note that I find that the handle and tips of the Wera drivers to be superior to the Wiha micro, but the Wiha have much more variety available (especially if you're need SAE sizes) and still work very well.

As far as ball hex vs. straight, I like the straight hex for most applications as they are more stable, but the ball hex are more versatile.
For the big Wera drivers in particular, the straight hex have a slightly pointy "Hex-Plus" shape  that I find works extremely well in high-torque applications to prevent slipping and rounding of the screw heads. It is an acquired taste (often you have to reverse the driver pretty hard to disengage it from the screw). It doesn't look like the ball heads have it.
http://www-us.wera.de/hex-plus0.html