"A" brand instruments vs "B" brand

[nctnico]

That's as an individual. You'll never see that if you're a corporate user because it'll be covered under your service contract.

Thats wrong, i don't use Tektronix at home. Asked for the company i work for. The reason they told me is that there is no long term support for this model anymore.

So the time to buy a replacement is long overdue. If long term support is no longer available, then it must be a very old product so it has been written off several times over. You can't expect a product to be supported forever.

[Domitronic]

So the time to buy a replacement is long overdue. If long term support is no longer available, then it must be a very old product so it has been written off several times over.

Scope was 13 years old at time of request for quote for the repair. Usually we do not replace devices just because they are written off financially. We replace them when they are broken or outdated in terms of features. So yes, 13 years is quite old. But i would still think that Tek service is at least able to say upfront if they can repair it or not.

My point was just to say that quality and service are not perfect just because its a so called A brand. We still use and buy Tek because they offer features that others do not in the same price range. 6 channels, 12 bit, current probes with 1mA/div, differential probes and so on. But they have flaws as well and are not always high quality.

[mwb1100]

Or spareparts...Knob is lost ? no problem, here you have a new one.

Thats not valid for Tektronix. Asked them how much a repair of a knob on a 10 year old scope is. The encoder seems to be broken. Answer was that they don't even know if they have the part. I have to send the scope to Tektronix, and then they will check. This check costs already 700 Euros. And if they find they can't repair it because they don't have the part anymore the 700 Euro are gone.


Edit: The scope was already 13 years old at the time of the request for a quote.

You should request your money back.  They should never even ask for money to repair a device so old they don't have parts for it.  I don't know how easy or difficult it will be to get them to honor that refund request, but I'd take it as far up the chain of command to the CEO - it's just not right.

[nctnico]

Actually it is quite normal to pay an investigative fee if you want to have something repaired. Not just test equipment but this is also normal for TVs, washing machines, etc. Otherwise repair shops would be working overtime on diagnosing stuff that is beyond economical repair. Manufacturers are very picky about what they take in for repairs so they charge relatively high amounts of money. They don't want to deal with obsolete stuff they might not even have the tools for.

However, there are also third party repair shops for test equipment that might be able to help out with older test equipment that is no longer supported by the manufacturer. IIRC forum member jwalling does oscilloscope repairs for a living. It might be worthwhile to contact him.

[Domitronic]

You should request your money back.  They should never even ask for money to repair a device so old they don't have parts for it.  I don't know how easy or difficult it will be to get them to honor that refund request, but I'd take it as far up the chain of command to the CEO - it's just not right.

Come on, you are totally missing the point. No issue with paying for repair. The issue is that Tek doesn't even provide the repair service. Or at least don't know if they can. Even that is fine and i can understand their decision from business point of view. But i disagree to the wide generalization here that the A brands provide the best service and you can get spare parts without problems. That might have been true 1-2 decades ago. But its not today.

[Domitronic]

Manufacturers are very picky about what they take in for repairs so they charge relatively high amounts of money. They don't want to deal with obsolete stuff they might not even have the tools for.

Thats true, i fully agree on that. They are not interested in repairing the old devices and just want to sell a new one. Just the same and no better than many other companies which are not considered A brands.

However, there are also third party repair shops for test equipment that might be able to help out with older test equipment that is no longer supported by the manufacturer. IIRC forum member jwalling does oscilloscope repairs for a living. It might be worthwhile to contact him.

No, if equipment breaks down and can't be repaired by the manufacturer we replace it. Same of course if repair isn't worth-while. Don't even bother to find a third party repair shop or try to fix it ourselves. If its not usable anymore its finally going to the dumpster, no matter which brand.

Again, we still use and buy Tek because they have some good offers. But i disagree to the general myth of the flawless quality, the perfect service and the everlasting longevity of the A brand devices. Its simply not true (anymore).

[nctnico]

I never claimed longevity. From my experience, the service of the A brands and quality of the firmware is better. For sure the A-brands mess up every now and then but in the grand scheme of things it isn't bad.

[thikone]

Am I crazy or is there others who think this way? Not that I'm big fan of Apple, but what is equivalent of iPad in oscilloscope world?

UI and niceties are very alluring. At work I have been using a larger number of oscilloscopes and the higher end models tend to have much faster processors to handle the UI. Due to the sheer cost of such equipment, however, the purchase decisions will forcefully require compromise. That is what an iPad or iPhone used to give you a few years ago: polish but at the expense of the latest features.

At home I drive an advanced Rigol (DS4014, hackable) and its UI is not as polished as the R&S RTA or as smooth as the KS DSOX3014A at work. However, I am convinced everyday of my decision at the time whenever I look at the bang per buck ratio of these two advanced models Hackability is what placed Rigol on the map and I would never be able to afford an equipment at such advanced level for my home.

There is (or there was?) a promotion of RTB2000 scopes. I managed to snatch one fully loaded RTB2K-COM4 for "just" 4.272,00 EUR instead of 8k+ EUR...

Was hard to find it on stock though. A credit from my bank made it possible and also that I could request it from the bank's app on Sunday evening without going to bank in person. Thanks to RBBVNL9 for comprehensive compares to SDS2000X+, after watching them I decided that I "want" to get R&S. It really feels that R&S user interface compared to that of Siglent is like iOS 5.0 compared to early versions of Android. Also in a sense that even though SDS2000X+ has more features, those implemented in RTB2000 work just right (polished UI). And we can say at the price of iPad compared to an Android tablet. Oh well, I also say to myself that my first oscilloscope is also my second one, if that makes sense. At least as long as my car is cheaper than MXO4-COM4 and I would really "need" one.  

I'm mostly Arduino/STM32 and repair guy, managed to do without oscilloscope till now. Don't have logic analyzer either. USB to UART and STLink was enough. But always wanted to learn how to use oscilloscope. And for that I "wanted" a proper one.

[2N3055]

Am I crazy or is there others who think this way? Not that I'm big fan of Apple, but what is equivalent of iPad in oscilloscope world?

UI and niceties are very alluring. At work I have been using a larger number of oscilloscopes and the higher end models tend to have much faster processors to handle the UI. Due to the sheer cost of such equipment, however, the purchase decisions will forcefully require compromise. That is what an iPad or iPhone used to give you a few years ago: polish but at the expense of the latest features.

At home I drive an advanced Rigol (DS4014, hackable) and its UI is not as polished as the R&S RTA or as smooth as the KS DSOX3014A at work. However, I am convinced everyday of my decision at the time whenever I look at the bang per buck ratio of these two advanced models Hackability is what placed Rigol on the map and I would never be able to afford an equipment at such advanced level for my home.

There is (or there was?) a promotion of RTB2000 scopes. I managed to snatch one fully loaded RTB2K-COM4 for "just" 4.272,00 EUR instead of 8k+ EUR...

Was hard to find it on stock though. A credit from my bank made it possible and also that I could request it from the bank's app on Sunday evening without going to bank in person. Thanks to RBBVNL9 for comprehensive compares to SDS2000X+, after watching them I decided that I "want" to get R&S. It really feels that R&S user interface compared to that of Siglent is like iOS 5.0 compared to early versions of Android. Also in a sense that even though SDS2000X+ has more features, those implemented in RTB2000 work just right (polished UI). And we can say at the price of iPad compared to an Android tablet. Oh well, I also say to myself that my first oscilloscope is also my second one, if that makes sense. At least as long as my car is cheaper than MXO4-COM4 and I would really "need" one.   

I'm mostly Arduino/STM32 and repair guy, managed to do without oscilloscope till now. Don't have logic analyzer either. USB to UART and STLink was enough. But always wanted to learn how to use oscilloscope. And for that I "wanted" a proper one.

Nice commercial for R&S.. You paid 2000€ more than for Siglent that is more capable because you like R&S design. It is nice that you're happy. Good for you.
Having to take a loan to buy a scope for a hobby would be a giant red flag for me...

I personally don't buy anything Apple because it is not worth it. Android phone works just fine for me. For fraction of fraction of money. I guess we are all different and have different priorities.

That being said, since you say it is your first scope, be prepared for steep learning curve.. Be patient there is lot to learn and read. R&S has many documents you should read.. So you can actually use the scope to the full.

Best,

[balnazzar]

I personally don't buy anything Apple because it is not worth it. Android phone works just fine for me. For fraction of fraction of money. I guess we are all different and have different priorities.

I don't buy Apple phones as well because I just make calls with my phone and not much else. But for laptops (not desktops) and tablets, I buy Apple. Just 1 grand will give you a fanless laptop that is very well built, faster than a windows laptop that costs twice that price, and with a battery that lasts 12-15 hours. For tablets, I do a lot of note-taking, and the iPad provides a much better writing experience than the high-end android tablets I tested.

[Black Phoenix]

I don't buy Apple phones as well because I just make calls with my phone and not much else. But for laptops (not desktops) and tablets, I buy Apple. Just 1 grand will give you a fanless laptop that is very well built, faster than a windows laptop that costs twice that price, and with a battery that lasts 12-15 hours. For tablets, I do a lot of note-taking, and the iPad provides a much better writing experience than the high-end android tablets I tested.

I'm in this with you. My last iPhone was the 5S, and I'm still a iPod user.

Currently running an Android. But the new M1 is definitely a powerful, game changing chip. For desktops I prefer the custom build route.

Android Tablets the only one that really hit the mark is not manufactured anymore, the nVidia Tegra. Currently there is no market equivalent for the iPad.

[Fungus]

But the new M1 is definitely a powerful, game changing chip.

Maybe so, but you have to put up with MacOS if you want to use it.

[thikone]

Nice commercial for R&S.. You paid 2000€ more than for Siglent that is more capable because you like R&S design. It is nice that you're happy. Good for you.
Having to take a loan to buy a scope for a hobby would be a giant red flag for me...

It was just about moment, here is the sale and only 3 scopes on stock in one web shop. The remaining two were sold out two days later. Not really wanting to wait for 5 years for similar promotion on MXO4 or MXO2 made me act pretty quick. I don't have any other loans, but my other hobby (woodworking) drains all free money from me. Free time is the most valuable for me. If only I could have all these tools and equipment when I had school holidays back then...

I personally don't buy anything Apple because it is not worth it. Android phone works just fine for me. For fraction of fraction of money. I guess we are all different and have different priorities.

I'm not a big fun of Apple either, don't like closed systems... But, they were the first to put GSM modem INSIDE the tablet and add capacitive touch screen to it. That's why I bought iPad1 right away when I saw it. To put it to perspective, there was HP tablet with Windows XP at that time with stylus and GSM modem would have to be inserted into USB port... beh.

That being said, since you say it is your first scope, be prepared for steep learning curve.. Be patient there is lot to learn and read. R&S has many documents you should read.. So you can actually use the scope to the full.

Speaking of steep learning curve, it took me a few evenings to actually compensate probes properly. RTB2000 actually shows you how to connect probes as picture on the screen... but I was blind to see. Probe has to be connected without cap and without ground wire but directly to calibration output. Otherwise, there were too many oscillations and higher noise. RTB2000 has a guide or "wizard" on probe calibration with real time assessment of how good it is set. Looks very useful to me, training wheels

Also ground has to be connected closer to the probe point, not to power supply output far away with lots of current. Lucky me, my father is EE and I can ask him. When he saw my waves he said that probes are not compensated or oscilloscope is broken. That was a stressful moment, but it was probes and the ground (I connected only one probe to ground and far away).

Still looking for a comprehensive text book on modern digital oscilloscopes. Something like The Art of Electronics but about scopes and measuring and instrumentation. So far found some old good books from Tektronix and some very sophisticated on measuring. Need some sort of reference on how to measure, how it should look like and how to fix the wrongs. One more reason to get a proper scope is not to doubt the instrument.

[balnazzar]

For desktops I prefer the custom build route.

Same here!

[balnazzar]

Maybe so, but you have to put up with MacOS if you want to use it.

True. I still find MacOS to be inferior to windows, overall. But it's super-optimized for the hardware.

[Martin72]

Still looking for a comprehensive text book on modern digital oscilloscopes.

This you can forget, trust me.
I´ve been looking for years for it, it doesn´t exist.
Although all manuals are written in such a way that one obviously assumes that the user knows how a DSO works.
Examining white papers and knowing about digital signal processing seems to be the key.
And white papers you can get from all big brands, but also from siglent.

[nctnico]

As a beginner it is a good idea to have peak-detect enabled by default. That will prevent from becoming surprised by aliasing.

[james_s]

But a Fluke 101 is worth every penny if your hobby requires a "safe" meter. 

That thing can't even measure current.  I guess that way they don't even have to put a fuse in it.

That's an advantage in some use cases. How many times have we seen somebody stick the probes in a wall socket or worse with them plugged into the current jacks? Really you should be using a clamp probe for line voltage stuff.

The Fluke 101 is a low cost meter with the reliability and safety of Fluke. It's not something I'd buy, but that doesn't mean it isn't a good value, it could be perfectly well suited for an electrician.

[2N3055]

Still looking for a comprehensive text book on modern digital oscilloscopes.

This you can forget, trust me.
I´ve been looking for years for it, it doesn´t exist.
Although all manuals are written in such a way that one obviously assumes that the user knows how a DSO works.
Examining white papers and knowing about digital signal processing seems to be the key.
And white papers you can get from all big brands, but also from siglent.

It's time I write one... 

[Martin72]

Do it, otherwise I will someday....

[thikone]

It's time I write one... 

Would be nice indeed.

On the other hand, maybe literature review would also do it. Or compilation from different sources. I might try to do that as I go further with my learning curve, to note where I read what and what I learnt from practice...

I noticed that The Art of Electronics, the third edition, has a chapter on oscilloscopes and a chapter on transmission lines that I study now. And I remember low pass and high pass filters from that book, and differentiation and integration of signal.

Another book "An Introduction to Electrical Instrumentation" by Gregory, 1977 has interesting chapter 4.2 - Components impurity effects on signals. Also explains nicely (to me at least) what stands behind probes compensation and that at some unfavorable conditions oscillation might occur with probes connected.

Is it really like each time something to be measured some calibration or attenuation to the circuit being measured is needed?

Would then playing with embedded generator be useful as to get sense of what is on the scope and then what should be in reality?

[balnazzar]

People on this forum with decades of experience and good theoretical knowledge should really join efforts and write down that mythical textbook about oscilloscopes.

[nctnico]

IMHO the best place to start is the user manual of an oscilloscope (or any piece of test equipment) and the application notes / instruction videos to get a good grasp of what an instrument is capable of.

[balnazzar]

IMHO the best place to start is the user manual of an oscilloscope (or any piece of test equipment) and the application notes / instruction videos to get a good grasp of what an instrument is capable of.

That's good advice, but I was thinking about a *general* textbook, upon which to learn how an oscilloscope really works (including all the theory about DSP in that context) and how to build one.

[thikone]

That's good advice, but I was thinking about a *general* textbook, upon which to learn how an oscilloscope really works (including all the theory about DSP in that context) and how to build one.

That would be nice, too. But there are things that are not so obvious that I have the biggest fear about.

For example, where I connect the ground makes a lot of difference, while in general it doesn't matter or can be ignored.

Another one is that digital scopes automatically limit bandwidth after going to some low mV per division of vertical resolution. Noted that while reading discussion thread on RTB2000 here... This should be in the scope manual or application notes, right?