Best scope for 5-6k

[resonant_frequency]

Hi all,

At work we are looking for a new scope with a budget of roughly 5-6k. We currently have a Tek DPO 4034 and a broken TDS 3034. We are trying to get something to replace TDS 3034, but ideally an upgrade from the DPO 4034.

Definitely need at least 4 channels, and somewhere between 200-500 MHz depending on price. We are measuring primarily audio equipment, power regulators, some digital signals and assessing clock timing. We have standalone frequency counters, power supplies and waveform generators, so an integrated unit is less useful for us.

We don't need digital inputs because I am planning on getting a Saleae Logic Pro 16. From reading online, it seems like the Saleae is easier to work with versus reading digital signals on a scope screen and it doesn't required expensive decoding addons.

We have a decent number of tek probes: passive P6139A, high voltage p5100 and current P6021A. Will these be compatible with other brand scopes?  If not it might makes sense to get a Tek scope.

We are more familiar with test equipment from the traditional high end brands, how do the scopes from Rigol, Siglent, Gwinstek compare? Are their specs accurate?

What features should I be looking for when comparing scopes and what would y'all recommend for our use case?


EDIT:
I am considering looking for a scope with a 10 MHz reference input, as a previous engineer mentioned that there was a scenario where it would have been advantageous when trying to accurately measure the timing during a long duration signal, but that he was able to feed in a PPS signal to help keep things in sync. Is this a feature that is worth perusing?

[2N3055]

I can comment about Siglent because I have them. I would take a look at Siglent SDS3000xHD.
For your money you can even get 1GHz version.  They are MSO, but you don't need it so you don't buy digital probe. You can always do that later. MSO is helpful because you can create triggering that includes digital channels too.

Triggering is very advanced. It supports 2 zone Zone trigger too.

OTOH, if you have lot of active probing that relies on Tex probe interface, no other brand will support those well or at all. 
Passive probes you mentioned should work just fine.
SDS3000xHD has it it's own Siglent active probe interface, and probes have good prices though.

It is a 12 bit scope with very good DC gain and offset accuracy, large DC offset capabilities. FFT is excellent, math is class leading with 4 channels of free formula math.
Download a datasheet and look through.

Quality is very good, LeCroy rebadges them with no changes, except logo.

[mikeselectricstuff]

We don't need digital inputs because I am planning on getting a Saleae Logic Pro 16. From reading online, it seems like the Saleae is easier to work with versus reading digital signals on a scope screen and it doesn't required expensive decoding addons.

Having digital on the same screen as analogue can be very useful, unless you have particular decoding requirements, IMO an MSO will usually be better than two seperate devices.

[nctnico]

We don't need digital inputs because I am planning on getting a Saleae Logic Pro 16. From reading online, it seems like the Saleae is easier to work with versus reading digital signals on a scope screen and it doesn't required expensive decoding addons.

Having digital on the same screen as analogue can be very useful, unless you have particular decoding requirements, IMO an MSO will usually be better than two seperate devices.

Agreed. An MSO can show digital signals in realtime and better MSOs have more advanced triggering features. With the given budget, I'd give the Batronix Magnova a long hard look. Or if used is an option, an R&S RTB2004 or RTM3004.

[KungFuJosh]

+1 for the Magnova. As a business customer, you can contact Batronix directly to see about getting it in the US before consumer availability later this year.

IMO in that price range, the best options are the SDS3000X HD and the Magnova. I chose the Magnova for a number of reasons including the nicer/bigger FHD screen, I prefer the UI, and external reference input was also a requirement for me. The 350MHz limit of the Magnova is no problem for me (-3db around 440MHz), but if you did need higher bw, the SDS3000X HD maxes out at 1GHz. You mentioned 200MHz as the minimum requirement, so that's not an issue.

Magnova includes all options with no separate pricing, and their support is phenomenal. Siglent's support is good too, but they're a bigger manufacturer with a lot more products, so they can't compete in that regard. Siglent is significantly better than the other brands you mentioned like Rigol or Instek. Of the brands you mentioned, Rigol is the only one I hate.

If you're doing test automation / remote testing, I created a definition driver to make the Magnova work with TestController software.

Thanks,
Josh

[n55_6mt]

I'm in the same market right now, but I'm pushing for a slightly higher budget. The current front runner is a R&S 200MHz MXO34. With the promo bundle it's just a fantastic deal, especially at the 200MHz tier. I'd love a 350MHz or 500MHz scope, but the price jump is very severe, but I can always push to upgrade from 200 -> 350 in the next budget cycle.

The Keysight HD304 is also in the running, but it's higher cost and even with the promo software unlocks Keysight is offering, it still trails the MXO3's intro bundle. I could probably get my manager to sign off on it, but I also feel like the new OS/UI still has a lot of kinks to work out and will probably mature much more in the next few years.

Siglent 3000X HD looks like a decent scope, but due to the concerns around Siglent's ownership I can't bring one into the facility and their serial decode functions are kind of whacky.

Magnova is interesting, but I just don't know if there's adequate stateside support, and we're picky about vendors. Not sure I could get terms set up with Batronix as we're very picky at work with who we deal with as suppliers/ vendors.

Tek 2 series is just way to far behind in features/ memory to even really consider. 3 Series is out of my budget once optioned out where I need it. I love their new UI, but why can't they just meet R&S and Keysight on specs?

[Psi]

I would definitely be looking at 4 channel and a really big screen for that price. Both those things make your oscilloscope experience much better.

The LAN interface on Siglent scopes is very good.  I can't say I've used many others but I was impressed by how good it was.
You don't need LAN that often but when you do it's really nice to have. Such as taking lots of photos vs having to use a USB stick.

Touch is more useful than you'd think when navigating OSD menus, but for that price you'll probably get that automatically.

12+bit ADCs is something I would also be looking for, just for nicer digital measurement.

Dedicated controls for each channel is another useful thing to have if you can get it, but as long as the interface is ok it's not an absolute must.

[tautech]

I'm in the same market right now, .....

Siglent 3000X HD looks like a decent scope, but due to the concerns around Siglent's ownership I can't bring one into the facility and their serial decode functions are kind of whacky.

What concerns ?   

Siglent is a privately owned company listed on the Asian stock markets a couple years back.
I can say in 13yrs of dealing with them they have supported us more than I ever imagined they might and as their NZ distributor I now know they 100% have my customers and my back covered.
Great ppl to deal with.

There's not many companies anywhere in this day and age that one could offer similar praise about.

[n55_6mt]

What concerns ?   

Siglent is a privately owned company listed on the Asian stock markets a couple years back.
I can say in 13yrs of dealing with them they have supported us more than I ever imagined they might and as their NZ distributor I now know they 100% have my customers and my back covered.
Great ppl to deal with.

There's not many companies anywhere in this day and age that one could offer similar praise about.

They're unfortunately now flagged in our procurement system, same as Rigol and any other Chinese company selling a device with a microcontroller inside. I don't think there's anything specifically identified posing a legitimate security threat, but if it's got a USB or Ethernet port on it, our IT security teams are going to require it to be sourced from an approved manufacturer and vendor. The company I work for isn't a traditionally high-tech firm, so it's way easier to just ban these devices and force the few dozen people globally who are affected to buy their way to an approved solution.

If they're willing to shell out for a R&S or Keysight, who am I to argue 

[tautech]

What concerns ?   

Siglent is a privately owned company listed on the Asian stock markets a couple years back.
I can say in 13yrs of dealing with them they have supported us more than I ever imagined they might and as their NZ distributor I now know they 100% have my customers and my back covered.
Great ppl to deal with.

There's not many companies anywhere in this day and age that one could offer similar praise about.

They're unfortunately now flagged in our procurement system, same as Rigol and any other Chinese company selling a device with a microcontroller inside. I don't think there's anything specifically identified posing a legitimate security threat, but if it's got a USB or Ethernet port on it, our IT security teams are going to require it to be sourced from an approved manufacturer and vendor. The company I work for isn't a traditionally high-tech firm, so it's way easier to just ban these devices and force the few dozen people globally who are affected to buy their way to an approved solution.

If they're willing to shell out for a R&S or Keysight, who am I to argue 

We supply companies where their lab LAN is not permitted to access the www and any USB stick must be company approved.
They could just firewall selected IP's from test equipment but of course that means work that it seems some are allergic to. 

I suggest your IT teams get up to date on simple methods to control unauthorised access

[n55_6mt]

What concerns ?   

Siglent is a privately owned company listed on the Asian stock markets a couple years back.
I can say in 13yrs of dealing with them they have supported us more than I ever imagined they might and as their NZ distributor I now know they 100% have my customers and my back covered.
Great ppl to deal with.

There's not many companies anywhere in this day and age that one could offer similar praise about.

They're unfortunately now flagged in our procurement system, same as Rigol and any other Chinese company selling a device with a microcontroller inside. I don't think there's anything specifically identified posing a legitimate security threat, but if it's got a USB or Ethernet port on it, our IT security teams are going to require it to be sourced from an approved manufacturer and vendor. The company I work for isn't a traditionally high-tech firm, so it's way easier to just ban these devices and force the few dozen people globally who are affected to buy their way to an approved solution.

If they're willing to shell out for a R&S or Keysight, who am I to argue 

We supply companies where their lab LAN is not permitted to access the www and any USB stick must be company approved.
The could just firewall selected IP's from test equipment but of course that means work that it seems some are allergic to. 

I suggest your IT teams get up to date on simple methods to control unauthorised access

Believe me, we're already locked down to an unbelievably annoying level. 3 years ago they scanned and approved the EasyScope SW for the SHS800 I purchased without even questioning it, it's only in the last few months that they've introduced all of the rules on who/ what we can buy. It's a big corp (100k+ employees globally) and I'm just a little cog trying to do some protocol analysis and hardware debugging to try and keep 30+ year old systems alive. 

[2N3055]

Then R&S or Keysight it is. Price will be what it will be.

[tautech]

Then R&S or Keysight it is. Price will be what it will be.

Yet our fathers would not have dreamed of buying anything German or Japanese.........

[coromonadalix]

loll   with that paranoia        you wont get many in the 5-6k $  range   loll   


you'll have to rely on the less friendly supported ones  loll  cough cough    a few threads about them here  loll

[2N3055]

Then R&S or Keysight it is. Price will be what it will be.

Yet our fathers would not have dreamed of buying anything German or Japanese.........

My part of Europe was actually occupied... 
It took years for old people to chill out...
But nobody ever rejected excellent German technology... Even directly after the WWII.
Rejecting good and/or affordable things for political reasons is shooting yourself in the foot.
You are not punishing "them" (insert here enemy of the day), but yourself...
But it seems to be the world we live in these days.. Oh well...

[2N3055]

What concerns ?   

Siglent is a privately owned company listed on the Asian stock markets a couple years back.
I can say in 13yrs of dealing with them they have supported us more than I ever imagined they might and as their NZ distributor I now know they 100% have my customers and my back covered.
Great ppl to deal with.

There's not many companies anywhere in this day and age that one could offer similar praise about.

They're unfortunately now flagged in our procurement system, same as Rigol and any other Chinese company selling a device with a microcontroller inside. I don't think there's anything specifically identified posing a legitimate security threat, but if it's got a USB or Ethernet port on it, our IT security teams are going to require it to be sourced from an approved manufacturer and vendor. The company I work for isn't a traditionally high-tech firm, so it's way easier to just ban these devices and force the few dozen people globally who are affected to buy their way to an approved solution.

If they're willing to shell out for a R&S or Keysight, who am I to argue 

We supply companies where their lab LAN is not permitted to access the www and any USB stick must be company approved.
The could just firewall selected IP's from test equipment but of course that means work that it seems some are allergic to. 

I suggest your IT teams get up to date on simple methods to control unauthorised access

Believe me, we're already locked down to an unbelievably annoying level. 3 years ago they scanned and approved the EasyScope SW for the SHS800 I purchased without even questioning it, it's only in the last few months that they've introduced all of the rules on who/ what we can buy. It's a big corp (100k+ employees globally) and I'm just a little cog trying to do some protocol analysis and hardware debugging to try and keep 30+ year old systems alive. 

My sympathies for having to deal with the idiots... 

[tooki]

What concerns ?   

Siglent is a privately owned company listed on the Asian stock markets a couple years back.
I can say in 13yrs of dealing with them they have supported us more than I ever imagined they might and as their NZ distributor I now know they 100% have my customers and my back covered.
Great ppl to deal with.

There's not many companies anywhere in this day and age that one could offer similar praise about.

They're unfortunately now flagged in our procurement system, same as Rigol and any other Chinese company selling a device with a microcontroller inside. I don't think there's anything specifically identified posing a legitimate security threat, but if it's got a USB or Ethernet port on it, our IT security teams are going to require it to be sourced from an approved manufacturer and vendor. The company I work for isn't a traditionally high-tech firm, so it's way easier to just ban these devices and force the few dozen people globally who are affected to buy their way to an approved solution.

If they're willing to shell out for a R&S or Keysight, who am I to argue 

You can also get that same Siglent scope from LeCroy as the T3DSO3000HD, should you want to.

[pdenisowski]

Or if used is an option, an R&S RTB2004 or RTM3004.

For ~ 5-6K, you can buy an MXO3 or a fully-loaded, brand new R&S RTB2 (either of which I highly recommend  )

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/products/test-and-measurement/oscilloscopes/rs-rtb-2-oscilloscope_334282.html

[Psi]

Sometimes you can get traction by looping in finance dept that the rules are costing a shit ton.   
Insert price of Siglent vs Price of the most expense one you can find with similar specs but a permitted brand.

I'm not saying you should do that, just saying that the finance dept is always looking to save money and may have more power than you to issue an exemption.

But in this case the savings may not be enough to get their attention. So you may just have to go with an accepted brand.

I've never used a R&S but they look pretty nice. Well, the fully black ones do/did.

[pdenisowski]

What concerns ?   

Siglent is a privately owned company listed on the Asian stock markets a couple years back.
I can say in 13yrs of dealing with them they have supported us more than I ever imagined they might and as their NZ distributor I now know they 100% have my customers and my back covered.
Great ppl to deal with.

There's not many companies anywhere in this day and age that one could offer similar praise about.

They're unfortunately now flagged in our procurement system, same as Rigol and any other Chinese company selling a device with a microcontroller inside. I don't think there's anything specifically identified posing a legitimate security threat, but if it's got a USB or Ethernet port on it, our IT security teams are going to require it to be sourced from an approved manufacturer and vendor. The company I work for isn't a traditionally high-tech firm, so it's way easier to just ban these devices and force the few dozen people globally who are affected to buy their way to an approved solution.

If they're willing to shell out for a R&S or Keysight, who am I to argue 

Indeed 

And these kinds of per-country restrictions are more common than most people think.  I've had numerous (non-government) customers who would not even let sales reps into the building to talk about their products if they worked for non-US / non-NATO companies. 

[pdenisowski]

Sometimes you can get traction by looping in finance dept that the rules are costing a shit ton.   
Insert price of Siglent vs Price of the most expense one you can find with similar specs but a permitted brand.

Trust me, in these situations finance has zero input - it wouldn’t matter even if the prohibited country’s instruments were free.

[mawyatt]

Indeed 

And these kinds of per-country restrictions are more common than most people think.  I've had numerous (non-government) customers who would not even let sales reps into the building to talk about their products if they worked for non-US / non-NATO companies.

We were one of those back in the latter part of our career (even for US reps!!). We had rooms/labs where no cell phones, computers, even USB sticks were allowed, no LAN, and the Power was filtered for emissions. The entire office/lab area was within an EMI chamber with physical penetration requirements (think of a bank vault). All TE was HP/Tek/Fluke and later R&S with a sprinkling of Power Designs PSs. Double Cypher locked with waiting room between for "pre approval" entry, guards weren't even allowed unless escorted. Recall having to jump thru hoops to get a new Stanford Research generator, as they weren't on the "approved TE list".

One solution we did was to have a lab with less restrictions, where other TE, employees, and company executives were allowed, and we could bring outside people in with prior approval (US citizens only tho).

All this made a difficult task, even more difficult!! High level Security folks tend to be paranoid, which is probably good, but can cause signifiant impediments to technical progress.

One funny story. We had a new security person that liked to impose her authority. It was so bad that we weren't allowed to covey design requirements (voltage, current, noise) for a small part of a custom chip design (multiple LDOs) that the company Canadian group was doing, just the regulators.

During a meeting with special customers which she was attending and reading the meeting restrictions beforehand (standard practice), we stopped her discussion and asked what paper and pencil/pen had been handed out to everyone for taking notes (laptops not allowed). The pens were of Chinese origin and per her requirements/instructions the meeting had to be adjourned and a full security breach report submitted and everyone interviewed. She was pissed, and didn't last much longer as our direct security person and moved on to another unfortunate group somewhere

Selective TE is just a fact in certain development/test environments, and technical folks must deal with such, even as painful and costly as it is 

Best 

[Doctorandus_P]

Definitely need at least 4 channels, and somewhere between 200-500 MHz depending on price. We are measuring primarily audio equipment, power regulators, some digital signals and assessing clock timing.

Why do you need 500MHz bandwidth for that?

I'm quite happy with my Siglent SDS1104X-E, even though it's "just" an 8-bit scope. Maybe it's good for you to get a scope in that price and performance range. I'm not saying it's the scope you need, but at 10% of your budget it's starting to get into the "lunch money" category.  I thought a while about buying a scope in the Siglent 2000 series, but I just don't need it. I'd like the bigger screen and the extra cost is not a big issue, but I just don't need it.

Just had a look at some prices, and you can now get a Siglent SDS1102X HD for EUR 1150, or an Siglent SDS1204X HD  for EUR 1650. And that's on the low end of the bandwidth with a "mere" 200MHz

Design of your DPO4034 is apparently from 2010, now 16 years ago. And that is quite a lot for scopes. One of the recent changes is many scope manufacturers are now switching to 10 or 12 bit ADC's for all but their lowest cost entry scopes.

One of the few reasons I can imagine for really needing a more expensive scope is for very advanced triggering features, and those are (sort of) brand specific, at least in their details.

[Doctorandus_P]

Then R&S or Keysight it is. Price will be what it will be.

With the stated paranoia levels I wouldn't trust anything from an american company either. That government also gives itself the right to interfere with company property and enforces companies to lie that they have been compromised. And from that the only conclusion is that they can not be trusted. They've degraded to a similar level as the chinese, although interference is probably much less widespread.

Batronix Magnova does become more interesting when this is taken into regard. The're a new player on the scope market. Your IT department probably never heard of them and they may want to take a closer look if it's brought to their attention.

But overall, air gapping the lab bunker makes more sense. You simply can't rely on the equipment not having built in spyware, and the only alternative is to build security while acknowledging that fact. Disabling the built in ethernet on your PC and using an "off brand" Ethernet card is apparently effective to thwart Intel's "Management Engine" (And AMD's equivalent). And anybody believing those things are there only for the benefit of the users is a true fool indeed.

[mawyatt]

If one is involved with work that is sensitive wrt to national safety/security of ones' country then it's likely the best procedure to not to utilize TE from an adversary or potential adversary. Paranoid maybe, but better to err in that direction than not!!

With todays TE almost anything could be utilized by an adversary for gleaning information, if that TE ends up in a lab working on sensitive stuff the consequences could be significant if an adversary had access to such!!

Best