Comparison of scope manufacturers for after sales support?

[jmc2000]

I haven't been burnt yet, but my biggest nightmare would be spending over £2000 on a scope that dies after three years, just out of the guarantee, and costing £500 to repair. Or, even worse, no longer supported!

1. Which manufacturers offer the best support when your expensive scope suddenly dies?

2. What are your personal experiences in getting an expensive scope repaired or replaced by the original manufacturer?

3. Which manufacturers tend to make the most reliable scopes?

[IvoS]

Rigol DS1052 broken. Just sent it back today for warranty repair. The unit is 1.5 year old, was used sparingly. I will post my comments on how this goes later, but they returned my phone call today, which is a good start.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I may be able to report on Owon's out-of warranty service soon... slow comms so far but at least some response to email....

[Rufus]

I haven't been burnt yet, but my biggest nightmare would be spending over £2000 on a scope that dies after three years, just out of the guarantee, and costing £500 to repair.

Funny, people will gamble small (and even moderate) amounts of money on lotteries, casinos and the like with almost guaranteed to loose odds but gambling a larger amount (£1000 to replace the 3 year old scope) on very good odds somehow becomes a biggest nightmare.

Agilent will charge you about £60 a year for a repair agreement on a £2000 scope. I would put the chances of a 3 year old Agilent scope failing during the next year at less than 1% which means with a £1000 replacement cost it isn't worth paying more than £10. I'll insure it with myself and pocket a notional £50.

Maybe I will get unlucky but the chances are I won't and its nothing to have nightmares about either way.

[Bored@Work]

1. Which manufacturers offer the best support when your expensive scope suddenly dies?

All this service stuff depends on things like where you live, who you are (big company vs small company vs. individual), where you bought (from local authorized distributor to that guy on the internet), and luck.

Even if you do all according to the book (e.g. buying a well known brand from a reputable local authorized distributor) you can have some nasty surprises. You have to live with it.

[Gunb]

I haven't been burnt yet, but my biggest nightmare would be spending over £2000 on a scope that dies after three years, just out of the guarantee, and costing £500 to repair. Or, even worse, no longer supported!

1. Which manufacturers offer the best support when your expensive scope suddenly dies?

2. What are your personal experiences in getting an expensive scope repaired or replaced by the original manufacturer?

3. Which manufacturers tend to make the most reliable scopes?

Experience in Germany:

1. HAMEG:

- Every reply withing 24 hours.
- Broken analyzer: RMA no. requested, shipped device, came back 1 week later
- Scope modification: a few days
- Generator replacement: 2 days

2. RIGOL (German support):

- Every reply within a few days
- Firmware updates received automatically when released by mail (related to scope and analyzer)
- Detailed instruction how to do self-alignment


No reason to complain at all. Support is working well as expected.


Kind rgds
Gunb

[dr.diesel]

I've had many emails to each of the following, Rigol, Hameg and Tek in my recent quest for the ideal scope, mostly related to specs not listed online.  Email chains started this past Sunday (3/24/2013), both Rigol and Hameg replied the next day, so far Tek has yet to respond.  Correspondence between Rigol and Hameg went back and forth for a couple days with responses usually within the hour.

[Tube_Dude]

1. HAMEG:

- Every reply withing 24 hours.

My vote to HAMEG too. They are awesome in their support, and I'm not in Germany.

[Wuerstchenhund]

1. Which manufacturers offer the best support when your expensive scope suddenly dies?

Agilent is top-notch from my own experience, Tek was once, too, but in more recent years we had a few issues. Not by personal experience but from some of our customers that buy LeCroy it seems their support is very good, too. R&S (Rohde & Schwarz) also offers good support if you're prepared to pay for it (although I found their web support a bit lacking).

But this is for scopes that are actually really expensive (which means a rough price range from £10k+ to more than £100k). A £2000 scope is a low end device and may get treated differently in support, especially if you're not a business.

2. What are your personal experiences in getting an expensive scope repaired or replaced by the original manufacturer?

As written before, no problems with Agilent and even the issues with Tek weren't the end of the world.

3. Which manufacturers tend to make the most reliable scopes?

Agilent, Tek, LeCroy (except the low-end WaveAce Series), R&S all make very reliable scopes. Maybe Hameg if you're shopping in the lower end of the price spectrum.

But support also depends on your location and if you're a consumer or a business.

And if support is of high concern then I'd be very careful with Chinese designed stuff like Rigol, Siglent, Atten, Hantek and such. Rigol apparently has invested in support in the US but for Europe support is close to non-existent, and central repair facilities like all big brands have spread around most of the world don't exist for the cheap Chinese brands. But then, they cost quite a bit less than brand name stuff, so it's a trade-off.

[Hydrawerk]

So buying an Agilent from farnell.com should be completely OK, am I right? Anyway, what's the GW Instek service in Europe like? I have read bad news on this forum... 

[Gunb]

And if support is of high concern then I'd be very careful with Chinese designed stuff like Rigol, Siglent, Atten, Hantek and such. Rigol apparently has invested in support in the US but for Europe support is close to non-existent, and central repair facilities like all big brands have spread around most of the world don't exist for the cheap Chinese brands. But then, they cost quite a bit less than brand name stuff, so it's a trade-off.

Concerning RIGOL this is wrong for Germany. They've set up support during the last 1.5 years and I have been in touch with them a few times, cannot complain. So, there are progressing in setting up support since they're producing DS2000/4000 and that was what you could read in a few electronics magazines for industry, too.

But as you've already mentioned, it's a question of private or business, and at least the price you pay for a scope. Even Agilent has to pay for support internally, they also need ressources for support that generates pay for employees. So support for their low-price scopes will not be the same as for higher models.
On the other hand that's why you pay more for Hameg scopes, which tend more to be mid-price scopes than low-price. I still get support for my HM407.

What has to be done is comparing scopes of the same price range. Makes no sense to compare support of low-price Rigols with the higher ones. First will hardly enable support, last are expensive enough including support.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Concerning RIGOL this is wrong for Germany. They've set up support during the last 1.5 years and I have been in touch with them a few times, cannot complain.

If this is really set up by Rigol and not some reseller then this is a very good sign that Rigol is growing up. But I guess that was to be expected after they beefed up support in the US.

So, there are progressing in setting up support since they're producing DS2000/4000 and that was what you could read in a few electronics magazines for industry, too.

If they don't become another GW-Instek then this is indeed progress.

On the other hand that's why you pay more for Hameg scopes, which tend more to be mid-price scopes than low-price. I still get support for my HM407.

It's probably because Hameg has traditionally been the brand of choice for small businesses (I remember that in the days of TV repair shops I've seen rarely something other than Hameg scopes), for which even an entry-level scope is a noticeable investment and for which these customers expect proper support. On the other side, Agilent, Tek and other big names are more at home in large corporations, which reflects in their support offerings (basic support is included, everything else can be bought optionally for a fee).

It's however good to hear that when R&S bought Hameg that the Hameg support hasn't suffered.

What has to be done is comparing scopes of the same price range. Makes no sense to compare support of low-price Rigols with the higher ones. First will hardly enable support, last are expensive enough including support.

I fully agree. Especially when most entry level scopes are more or less becoming throw-away items which, instead of being repaired, are just thrown away and replaced with a new scope.

[Gunb]

Hi,

I agree with you, too.

I mean, especially Agilent, Tek and Co. are more producing scopes for industrial purposes, as you've already said. Most people I know bought their devices used, not new, simply because they've been too expensive in the past. Nice to see, that especially Agilent offers the 2000 and 3000 series now for a price, that might be still high, but possible more attractive for hobby purposes than before.

Hameg has been sold to R&S because the founder Hartmann had no heir, and he was really old. R&S has made a few changes to reduce costs, understood, but they didn't produce scopes before. Hameg filled a gap, the small R&S scope is made by Hameg in Chemnitz, too. There HMS analyzer contains R&S circuitries and also the new higher HMO series uses R&S parts with special ASICs to archieve low noise over the complete 500MHz bandwidth. And yes, there are making scopes for small business. I mean, even if wfm/s is not so high (question if needed at all for most users), the complete package you get is one of the strong points where their scopes score. The HMOs offer plenty of measurement functionalities, they've got up to 16 digital channels and optional bus decoding. There are small functions you might not see directly but when using it daily, where they are still much better than Rigol or cheap Chinese scopes. Support is also there, found a few bugs during the last years, reported to support - they've fixed them all. That's what I want, and where I'm prepared to pay a higher price.

Rigol support is set up by Rigol, not a reseller. But I agree, it's always the question with Chinese products, how long they're able to keep the price low. I mean, even in China manufacturing costs are increasing, also labour costs. If the concept of selling products with less or no profit to bring traditional manufacturers to their knees, subsidized by the nation, can survive for years might be still an open question - we will see.

I mean, not all Chinese products are crap, one can see their learning curve - but if they will be there with their current price as long as traditional manufacturers? Only time will tell - and finally that will decide about support for the next 10 years, too 

Ah, before I forget, allow me a short question: what about your name "Wuerstchenhund"? Sounds very German and funny  Each time it appears this question comes up 

[Wuerstchenhund]

I mean, especially Agilent, Tek and Co. are more producing scopes for industrial purposes, as you've already said. Most people I know bought their devices used, not new, simply because they've been too expensive in the past. Nice to see, that especially Agilent offers the 2000 and 3000 series now for a price, that might be still high, but possible more attractive for hobby purposes than before.

That's very likely. But I wonder how (or if) Agilent will adapt to having essentially consumers or small businesses as customers, as I don't think they are really prepared for that.

Hameg has been sold to R&S because the founder Hartmann had no heir, and he was really old.

Interesting, I didn't know that. I remember that Hameg was essentially a family business but the last time I looked at their scopes was almost 25 years ago. But I think that R&S and Hameg make for a very good fit.

R&S has made a few changes to reduce costs, understood, but they didn't produce scopes before. Hameg filled a gap, the small R&S scope is made by Hameg in Chemnitz, too.

So all Hameg scopes are still produced in Germany?

There HMS analyzer contains R&S circuitries and also the new higher HMO series uses R&S parts with special ASICs to archieve low noise over the complete 500MHz bandwidth. And yes, there are making scopes for small business.

Yes, it seems they are still very much focused on small businesses and the education market.

I mean, even if wfm/s is not so high (question if needed at all for most users)

I agree, I'm also highly suspicious of this new hype of extremely high wafeform rates.

the complete package you get is one of the strong points where their scopes score. The HMOs offer plenty of measurement functionalities, they've got up to 16 digital channels and optional bus decoding. There are small functions you might not see directly but when using it daily, where they are still much better than Rigol or cheap Chinese scopes. Support is also there, found a few bugs during the last years, reported to support - they've fixed them all. That's what I want, and where I'm prepared to pay a higher price.

Again I fully agree, I also rather pay a bit more for something from a manufacturer that offers good support for its products.

I had a look at the Hameg website and their scopes, and more closely on the HMO3000 Series. They look like really nice scopes. The only thing I would criticize are that apparently no LAN interface is available (USB and GPIB only) and that the serial decode options are limited to mainstream stuff like CAN I2C or RS-232C, but then I guess that is what their customers want, and I'm probably not in their target group anyways.

Rigol support is set up by Rigol, not a reseller. But I agree, it's always the question with Chinese products, how long they're able to keep the price low. I mean, even in China manufacturing costs are increasing, also labour costs. If the concept of selling products with less or no profit to bring traditional manufacturers to their knees, subsidized by the nation, can survive for years might be still an open question - we will see.

I am sure it will change. It's similar to Japan, where when stuff was cheap is was mostly crap but when the quality started to increase so did their prices. At some point in the future China will, like Japan today, be known as producer of of high quality stuff, but at that point salaries will have increased dramatically to make the production of cheap crap unfeasible.

I mean, not all Chinese products are crap, one can see their learning curve - but if they will be there with their current price as long as traditional manufacturers? Only time will tell - and finally that will decide about support for the next 10 years, too 

That's true.

Ah, before I forget, allow me a short question: what about your name "Wuerstchenhund"? Sounds very German and funny  Each time it appears this question comes up 

Well, just because I live in the UK doesn't mean I was born there ;-)

I thought of using 'Dackel' but that sounded too obvious, so I thought why not take the English name ('sausage dog') and use the German translation. Voila ;-)

[Gunb]

Hello again,

OK, thought a "Dackel" would be a "Teckel" in English  - "sausage dog" 

Hameg's still developing in Germany. Scopes at Chemnitz, other devices in Mainhausen. Production at R&S in Czech republic and as far as I can remember in Memmingen at R&S site.
Generally there's LAN available for the complete HMO series, option HO730. Think, that should work also with the new HMOs, maybe there website is not updated completely. If not, I assume that next firmware will enable it. I know that I can use it for my HMO2524, and the HMO352x also. The new big HMOs base upon the previous platform, with a few improvements and as far as I know for a lower price.


Have a nice eastern, Wuerstchenhund 


Kind regards
Gunb


 

[Wuerstchenhund]

OK, thought a "Dackel" would be a "Teckel" in English  - "sausage dog" 

'Teckel' is the correct Term for 'Dachshund' (you would use that word when talking about this specific type of dog), but the German colloquial term 'Dackel' is better translated with 'sausage dog'.

Hameg's still developing in Germany. Scopes at Chemnitz, other devices in Mainhausen. Production at R&S in Czech republic and as far as I can remember in Memmingen at R&S site.

I know the Memmingen site (have been there a few times). Glad to hear it still exists.

Generally there's LAN available for the complete HMO series, option HO730. Think, that should work also with the new HMOs, maybe there website is not updated completely.

To be honest, I find the structure of the Hameg website confusing at times. I can find relevant infos much faster on the Agilent site than on the Hameg site (English and German), but maybe that's just me.

If not, I assume that next firmware will enable it. I know that I can use it for my HMO2524, and the HMO352x also. The new big HMOs base upon the previous platform, with a few improvements and as far as I know for a lower price.

I shall keep Hameg in mind in case we need some smaller scopes at work. Personally, I'll probably pay a bit more and get a 2nd hand LeCroy (not WaveAce), simply because of the analysis capabilities.

Have a nice eastern, Wuerstchenhund 

Thanks! Frohe Ostern auch dir! ;-)

[saturation]

What exactly happened to your 1052e?

Rigol DS1052 broken. Just sent it back today for warranty repair. The unit is 1.5 year old, was used sparingly. I will post my comments on how this goes later, but they returned my phone call today, which is a good start.

[zaoka]

Big thumb up for HAMEG and HIOKI.

HAMEG sent me schematics twice for old scopes. They even told me whats wrong with them and how to fix it.

HIOKI sent me schematic for an old analog meter that was made in early 1970. It took them few days to go trough archive to find it.