Handheld meter robustness testing

[jordanp123]

I wonder what it would do with a strong DC field. Very high magnetic field strength electromagnets are used heavily in the mining industries for separation of metallic contamination (I'm supposing this is also used in several other industries for the same reason- but mining is the only one I have experience with).

[joeqsmith]

I wonder what it would do with a strong DC field. Very high magnetic field strength electromagnets are used heavily in the mining industries for separation of metallic contamination (I'm supposing this is also used in several other industries for the same reason- but mining is the only one I have experience with).

[Fungus]

So... don't ever put it in a toolbox near anything magnetic.

I'm with joe, this is a dangerous, recall-worthy problem.

[P90]

So... don't ever put it in a toolbox near anything magnetic.

I'm with joe, this is a dangerous, recall-worthy problem.

more scaremongering...

[jordanp123]

That video is very interesting, the relay it's self doesn't bother me at all, the fact that it appears to be latching with no reset or check for failure..does.

[tautech]

So... don't ever put it in a toolbox near anything magnetic.

I'm with joe, this is a dangerous, recall-worthy problem.

Me too.

Some might say it couldn't happen on the bench, yeah right.
Who hasn't had a conventional moving coil speaker on the bench ?

Oh yeah, we've all moved past them to those fancy electrostatic units.....whoops we've still got a problem Houston.

[Wytnucls]

Relays can be badly affected in strong magnetic fields, as warned by manufacturers. So can Rolex watches.
Just keep your neodymium magnets far away from expensive tools.
Leaving the rubber boot on the meter should help minimize careless interaction in the toolbox.

To stay out of trouble, always follow the old adage of measuring known voltages, before testing unknown ones.

[3db]

IMHO these relays should be set to a defined condition when the meter is switched on (initialised / during post).
I'm assuming that they are the bistable type with two coils.
I bet if this meter were made by UNI-T or some other chinese company then everyone would be   
about how terrible it was.

3DB.

[Wytnucls]

Yeah. Gossen and Metrawatt have only been making meters since 1906. A real bunch of amateurs.
As for Fluke putting relays in their multimeters! Disgusting!
Let Brymen and Uni-T show them how it's done. No relays here, siree...

[joeqsmith]

You could procure a genuine $70 GMW magnet to go with this meter. 

https://www.amazon.com/Gossen-Metrawatt-Z117A-Magnetic-Holder/dp/B0128DNNDC

[Wytnucls]

They only work with the rubber boot on and may not be as strong as the one you played with.
If there is a magnetic interaction with the holder, then I'll agree that Gossen should at least warn their customers.

The Fluke 185 relay is also affected by a strong neodymium magnet held to the back of the meter, but only if taken out of its boot.
The 8 pound magnet at the tip of my magnetic wand had no effect.
The Fluke 867B case is so big, only the LHC may affect it in any way.

https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Telescoping-Retriever-Telescopic-Retrieving/dp/B0175B3VRU

[joeqsmith]

No way I would cough up $70 on the OEM part just so I could brag I have a real GSM hanger to go with my GSM meter.  But I do have one that came with that low end CEM meter. 

[The Soulman]

  Told you to get one of the entry level models, pretty sure those would stand up to any of these tests..
Unfortunately this higher end model seems a bit over engineered. 

[Wytnucls]

Gossen engineer: 'Ha, but you didn't use our special low tesla samarium–cobalt holder' 

[Fungus]

Relays can be badly affected in strong magnetic fields, as warned by manufacturers. So can Rolex watches.
Just keep your neodymium magnets far away from expensive tools.

That's easy to say, but I expect to keep my Rolex away from magnets. I don't expect that from a multimeter.

It's probably just a firmware fix - pulse the relay at power on but people need the option to send their meters in for update/replacement IMHO.

To stay out of trouble, always follow the old adage of measuring known voltages, before testing unknown ones.

That's easy to say. The point is that this behavior is totally unexpected. Multimeters don't normally do things like this.

[Fungus]

You could procure a genuine $70 GMW magnet to go with this meter. 

https://www.amazon.com/Gossen-Metrawatt-Z117A-Magnetic-Holder/dp/B0128DNNDC

I wonder if that magnet is strong enough to do it. 

(I imagine it's quite strong...)

Edit: Oh, I just watched the latest video... 

"Gossen, we have a problem!"

[serggio]

Joe, when Fluke 287 wil be on your table under knife? 

[MacMeter]

Take the brand name fanboy element out of the equation, pretend the meters are hidden in brown paper bags, and it certainly appears there are some negative issues with this premium meter especially compared to some other lower priced meters. Thanks to Joe for his time and discoveries, don't see many if anyone attempting these kind of tests.

[3db]

They only work with the rubber boot on and may not be as strong as the one you played with.
If there is a magnetic interaction with the holder, then I'll agree that Gossen should at least warn their customers.

The Fluke 185 relay is also affected by a strong neodymium magnet held to the back of the meter, but only if taken out of its boot.
The 8 pound magnet at the tip of my magnetic wand had no effect.
The Fluke 867B case is so big, only the LHC may affect it in any way.

https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Telescoping-Retriever-Telescopic-Retrieving/dp/B0175B3VRU

When you remove the magnet and power off the meter.What happens when you power it on ?

3DB

[Fungus]

When you remove the magnet and power off the meter.What happens when you power it on ?

Nothing. It stays "broken" until you do something that clicks the relay, eg. select Ohms range.

Watch the video:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1216462/#msg1216462

[jordanp123]

When you remove the magnet and power off the meter.What happens when you power it on ?

Nothing. It stays "broken" until you do something that clicks the relay, eg. select Ohms range.

Watch the video:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1216462/#msg1216462

I believe he was referring to the Fluke meters.

[3db]

When you remove the magnet and power off the meter.What happens when you power it on ?

Nothing. It stays "broken" until you do something that clicks the relay, eg. select Ohms range.

Watch the video:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1216462/#msg1216462

@Fungus
My question related to the Fluke. Perhaps I should have been clearer.
I watched the video hours ago.
I'd like to know if the Fluke performs correctly when it's powered up.

3DB

[2N3055]

Problem is that nowadays, premium  brands in T&M think they are Apple, and not HP or Tektronix of old..
They think premium brand means premium design, looks, marketing, "coolness factor"  put over product that is decent, but not more than that. We seem to think it means premium quality, measurements, protection and such... But it usually means "touchscreen annotations " (like new R&S scope) and such gimmicks.. That "feature" is free... Protocol triggers and decode (reason why I would buy the darn scope!!) are OPTIONAL... 

63USD magnetic holder for Gossen-Metrawatt meters... that  works exactly like 4.5€ Brymen holder (it's a freaking piece of plastic with a magnet!!!). 
Rebadged Taiwanese scope probes for three time the price....
Array DC loads rebadged by Gossen for 2-3 times the price....

I have no problem buying expensive quality.. I just don't like expensive bullshit...

And Keysight, Gossen, Fluke and all bigo ones.... none of them are sacred cows... I don't necessarily agree with every test Joe does, or even his conclusions sometimes.. But I love his irreverence and lack of idolatry.... Premium manufacturers are not faultless, and us being critical to them, instead running sorts of cults that worship certain brands, is good.
It is good to us (better products for us) , it is good for them ( we keep them honest ) in a long run.... And it is even better for second tier manufacturers and us.. It makes them try harder...And give us better affordable products...

I do not want to defend Joe's "crusade" on the Gossen meter ( I think he does a bit of drama on purpose.. It's how you stir up the people ), but I agree with him on general principle :
If I pay for a handheld as much as for a good 6.5 Digit Benchtop meter, I want it to be better, more robust and superior in every TECHNICAL aspect to a Brymen or whatever else out there.. I want it to have Mu metal shield, 2ppm/C stable reference, etc, etc...  It has to be an overkill on specs..
Otherwise why on earth would I buy it... If it's not actually better?
 
For the price you can buy FLUKE 87V AND Brymen 869S ... Or Brymen 869S AND FLUKE 289 ...  And all three of those are very good... And will do the task of measuring at least as good...

My 2c and million words... Sorry for verbosity..

[rsjsouza]

Well, when you get reviewers of test gear (including Dave) spending time ranting about how "cheap" or "toyish" an equipment looks, you end up amplifying the feel that a teat gear has to also score high on this criteria - the manufacturers will pay attention to the reactions, given this may get some impulse buy, especially on the low-end.

[3db]

Well, when you get reviewers of test gear (including Dave) spending time ranting about how "cheap" or "toyish" an equipment looks, you end up amplifying the feel that a teat gear has to also score high on this criteria - the manufacturers will pay attention to the reactions, given this may get some impulse buy, especially on the low-end.

IF that's the case then they should be FIRED.
Fluke,Gossen,HP,Keithley,R&S etc gained their reputation by creating great test gear.
Whilst they were commercially aware I believe these companies also pursued measurement excellence.
A fat cat corporation can only live for so long on it's reputation.
New players who are hungry and who have the same ethos as the HP's of old will eventually grab market share at the low end,get better and move up the food chain.
I think Siglent may be such a company.

P.S. Should I mention Japan and motorbikes 

3DB