Magnova oscilloscope

[vk6zgo]

The situation rather reminds me of the German made Hilberling PT-8000A ham radio transceiver.

It was much touted in the late "2000s" as being something of a "super radio", with really good specs & the pictures of the construction looked like the inside of a high level RF test instrument.

The projected price level was somewhat higher than the top line models from established brands, but it looked so good that some were tempted.
Suddenly in 2008 came the announcement that due to "difficulties in meeting EU standards" production would cease.

That would have seemed to be that, however it popped up again in 2014, & again in 2017, but it seems to be "crickets" since then.
Obviously, the ham radio market is smaller than that for test equipment, but  the Hilberling saga is something of an object lesson about trying to enter a market which is already well served, particularly with a premium product.

The Hilberling company itself is well established in other fields, so didn't "go down the gurgler" as  some have done over the years.

[ebastler]

The situation rather reminds me of the German made Hilberling PT-8000A ham radio transceiver.
[...] Suddenly in 2008 came the announcement that due to "difficulties in meeting EU standards" production would cease.
[...] it popped up again in 2014, & again in 2017, but it seems to be "crickets" since then.
[...] the Hilberling saga is something of an object lesson about trying to enter a market which is already well served, particularly with a premium product.

I can't quite see what Hilberling's technical challenges in making the product stable (or compliant, if that was indeed the hurdle) have to do with entering a "well-served market". If anything, they have announced the product too early, and hence missed the opportunity to actually sell units while the excitement and visibility level was high.

Given that Batronix have announced actual shipments of the Magnova scopes within a few months, I trust that they have done their homework before announcing it.

The Hilberling PT-8000A seems alive and well, by the way. The company still offers it on their website, for the painfully high price of 14,500 Euro. (Which, to my mind, is the real challenge of this product: Given that it is specifically designed as an amateur radio transceiver, it is just way outside the price range of the vast majority of potential users.)

[Antonio90]

I understand how the conversation can be seen as a waste of time. The anouncement was made at Embedded World, which has only just ended.

But it is also true that the 'scope is offered for sale, with no info worthy of a purchase decision whatsoever. We really don't know anything, general menu structure, active probe interface, bode plot workings, AWG memory, really, not even a datasheet.

The questions about how it has been developed are also relevant in light of the premium support and warranty promised.
I would wait at least another week, indeed, but a 3K-7K hardware which is already orderable, needs a datasheet at the very least.

[markone]

Buying not directly but I would like to give it a thourough test to see how it holds when pushed to the limits.

I imagine everyone here, including me, surely would happily play with the toy at no charge 

One aspect that would interest me a lot is the use via USB / LAN interfaces, being also an happy Picoscope user I'm starting to want a DSO with screen and capabilities similar to the devices of the british company, in one package.

It's a pity that most capable screen DSOs fall miserably when it's matter to transfer captured data to an host PC with a decent level of performance.

[ebastler]

[...] a 3K-7K hardware which is already orderable, needs a datasheet at the very least.

Batronix agrees:

Professional videos, datasheet and manual will follow. We expect the series devices to be available in about 8 weeks.

[44kgk1lkf6u]

I see some kind of active probe interface. Is it an existing connector or are you rolling your own?

It looks like they plan to make probes in the future.

- We currently support probe sensing. There are no special probes available for the probe interface yet.

It makes me wonder why they decided to use their own interface if they don't have the effort to make their own probes.  Surely the patents for the serious brands' interfaces have expired.  (Except for the newest one from Tektronix.)  They could even skip reverse engineering the EEPROM format and allow users to use the probes without readout for the first version of the firmware.

[ebastler]

It makes me wonder why they decided to use their own interface if they don't have the effort to make their own probes.  Surely the patents for the serious brands' interfaces have expired.  (Except for the newest one from Tektronix.)  They could even skip reverse engineering the EEPROM format and allow users to use the probes without readout for the first version of the firmware.

I'd assume that there is money to be made by selling accessories.

Once you have convinced customers of your basic product and have locked them in, they have less choice where to buy accessories, so there is less competition on price. If the scopes use a unique probe interface, users will have to buy Batronix probes... Given that Batronix will ship Testec passive probes with the new scope, maybe custom active probes from Testec are forthcoming?

[switchabl]

Aside from spending resources so someone else can make money off your product, it still seems risky. Imagine you want to offer a current probe later, so you go to Hioki and ask them to make one with your reverse engineered Lecroy interface? Pretty good chance they just say no.

[KungFuJosh]

Aside from spending resources so someone else can make money off your product, it still seems risky. Imagine you want to offer a current probe later, so you go to Hioki and ask them to make one with your reverse engineered Lecroy interface? Pretty good chance they just say no.

lol, Hioki would say no. But mostly because many of Hioki's best probes are often rebadged from other manufacturers.

One thing you don't need to worry about is finding somebody that wants to get paid to make shit for somebody else. It's a silly argument.

[Andre77]

We had some great days at the embedded world show and I see that a several questions about Magnova have come up here. I would like to try to answer them briefly (exact details will follow with the data sheet):

- Noise Floor (measured values at the prototypes)
at 50 Ohm inputs, 350 MHz analog bandwidth, 5 ms/div (= 70 60 ms/screen)
   1 mV/div: < 700 µVpp, < 60 µVrms
   10 mV/div: < 850 µVpp, < 75 µVrms
   100 mV/div: < 6 mVpp, < 550 µVrms
   1 V/div: < 55 mVpp, < 5 mVrms
   
at 1 MOhm inputs, 350 MHz analog bandwidth, 5 ms/div (= 70 60 ms/screen)
   1 mV/div: < 850 µVpp, < 70 µVrms
   10 mV/div: < 950 µVpp, < 85 µVrms
   100 mV/div: < 6 mVpp, < 550 µVrms
   1 V/div: < 55 mVpp, < 5 mVrms





- ENOB: We use the TI ADC12QJ1600. According to the data sheet, its ENOB is between 9 and 9.3 bits in the frequency range used. The ENOB of the overall system will be slightly lower (around 8.x bits as expected).

- ERES: In addition to the normal 12-bit acquisition, the Magnova can also perform continuous averaging over 16, 1024, or 4096 measured values. This naturally limits the bandwidth but also achieves an extremely high noise suppression, particularly with the higher values. In addition to ERES, the software filters and the average function also benefit from the 16-bit system architecture.

- On the backside are two BNC connectors, one for 10 MHz Ref-Clock in and one for AUX-out (Trigger-Out, Mask test, Ref-Out).

- Custom probe attenuation is also supported.

- Custom color settings for traces are supported. The trace text color follows the trace color.

- The Bode/FRA works up to the AWG frequency (90 MHz).

- X/Y videos will follow. I am sure that at least one of my colleagues will love to run the audio X/Y test. ;-)

Sorry, our team page on batronix.com is unfortunately already longer out of date; we haven't had it in view recently. We will hire a photographer in the near future bring it up to date.

I understand that some may be skeptical about how such a large project was possible with a limited number of hardware, software, and VHDL developers.

However, the features and performance specified are not just ideas for the future; they have already been completely implemented.

We realize that a lot of information is still missing. Nobody buys an oscilloscope in this price range based solely on speculation. Complete datasheets and videos will follow in the coming weeks. The full release will occur in about 8 weeks when the series hardware becomes available.

[Antonio90]

Thanks Andre! Keep us updated 

[nctnico]

Just a quick note: Vrms includes DC offset. The standard deviation would be a more appropriate measurement for noise floor.

Bode plot / FRA up to 90MHz is nice as this would also allow to do power distribution network (PDN) analysis. Bonus points if the FRA magnitude can be used as a source for math; this way you can plot impedance using a relatively simple formula.

[egonotto]

........
- Noise Floor (measured values at the prototypes)
at 50 Ohm inputs, 350 MHz analog bandwidth, 5 ms/div (= 70 ms/screen)
......

Hello,

I assume it is 60 ms/screen.

How much memory would you have at 10 ms/div?
80 Mpts surprises me a little.
Would you then have 666,666 Mpts/s sample rate?

Best regards
egonotto

[Andre77]

Hello egonotto,

I assume it is 60 ms/screen.

Yes, that's right of course, my typo.

How much memory would you have at 10 ms/div?
80 Mpts surprises me a little.
Would you then have 666,666 Mpts/s sample rate?

If the memory is no longer sufficient for the entire recording time at the highest sampling rate, the next lower rate is used. At 10 ms/div (120 ms/screen) and 4 channels, this would be 500 MSa/s. The memory remains at 60 Mpts per channel.

Best regards,
Andre

[Ulrich.G]

When the launch promo is over, the current largest model (350Mhz) will cost over 7000€, so expectations are high.

There are certainly some interesting new ideas in this scope, but before starting such a project from scratch - how does such a small company come up with the idea that there is a need for a completely new design in this small, highly specialized market, in a price segment that is far from enthusiastic hobbyists?

[ebastler]

There are certainly some interesting new ideas in this scope, but before starting such a project from scratch - how does such a small company come up with the idea that there is a need for a completely new design in this small, highly specialized market, in a price segment that is far from enthusiastic hobbyists?

I'd assume it comes from selling several major scope brands for years and feeling that all of them are missing big opportunities to "get it right", especially in the UI department. Based on customer feedback and observations of the in-house application/support team.

Large screens have been reserved for high-end scopes, and have been used as leverage for the very high-end prices in that segment -- totally disconnected from the cost of goods for these screens. And having such a large screen opens up some new possibilities for the UI design and the balance of knobs vs. touch screen.

So I can understand that Batronix saw an opportunity to show the "big guys" how it's done. Will it be a commercial success? I don't know, but I wish them best of luck. Certainly a brave move!

[nctnico]

When the launch promo is over, the current largest model (350Mhz) will cost over 7000€, so expectations are high.

There are certainly some interesting new ideas in this scope, but before starting such a project from scratch - how does such a small company come up with the idea that there is a need for a completely new design in this small, highly specialized market, in a price segment that is far from enthusiastic hobbyists?

It is perfectly possible some people who have experience with developing DSOs (either open source or at various manufacturers) are involved. Germany has a long history with developing all kinds of equipment (even at small scale companies) so it is not like the knowledge isn't there. Getting a project like this off the ground is mostly a matter of funding. And it is not like you can go out and buy a truly versatile oscilloscope nowadays. All the ones on the market so far have strong / weak points so you either compromise or buy multiple oscilloscopes. For example: I have 4 oscilloscopes; each with unique features the others don't have.

[moerm]

Hello all,

I'm "new" here, "new" as in "lurking a couple of years but registered only now". And that has a reason: this thread.

Actually I'm in the market for a 350 MHz scope and I'll structure my post upside down, explaining first why I will not buy the Magnovia scope.

The reasons start with me actually looking for a 500 MHz scope, but if I found an exceptionally attractive candidate I'd also consider a 350 MHz one (Having access to a 2 GHz monster allows for some leeway ...).

350 MHz and anything less than 2.5 GS/s is not acceptable. Simple as that (Don't ask me why I have that rule yet. Chances are you'll sooner or later get more of my thoughts in that regard than you'll like *g).
I did/do see the positive sides of the Batronix Magnova and I'm quite lenient wrt. not being a heavyweight (yet? After all, R&S who started as "just a dealer" has evolved into a heavyweight). And I'm a European which also means that I'm very much pi__ed off by having next to no scopes being built here in Europe. So, a european company designing and producing a (non-toy) scope is most welcome by me.

But from a european company I expect, just like one from across the ocean, serious stuff that is scopes in the 250 to 1000 MHz range. An upper end of 350 MHz might be OK or even impressive for some halfway professional far-east company (like e.g. Micsig) but from a german (or brit or french) company I expect better, especially with a price tag close to or even north of €5000.

So, simply put, that Batronix thingy is not a serious contender in my eyes.

Sure, > 1.5 GS/a scopes usually use ASICS and it may feel unfair to expect a small or midsize company to shell out a couple of Mio $ to have their own ASIC. But the way I see it the question must also be asked in reverse: is it fair to ask $3000 to $6000 for a scope with 1.6 GS/s max? I don't think so.

As for the umpteen Mega WUR (but only in certain conditions): GFY!
The 300k WUR is OK though in my books. Nothing to write home about but neither to complain about.

Re. the super-duper-premium high-end wow!-large screen, thanks no. Even pigs don't eat where they sh_t. Showing something is the very raison d'etre of a scope, so I do not want it to be glossy, LOCA, touchy. I want it easy-to-clean, easy to see, and no space wasted for gadgets! For me no dynamic button labels and other BS like that, thank you.
Plus, 15.6" isn't that large, it's about the size of my notebook screen. More importantly, if someone wants/needs a large screen, how about 24", or even 30"? Or, in other words, just give a plug to connect a real full size monitor to!

Also, but for the sake of fairness, that's a subjective thing, I very much dislike "la mode" walking into electronics - and that's exactly what the current trend to make everything dark or, worst case, black is. It's "la mode". Thanks but thanks, no, I was and am very happy with "bland light grey" equipment - preferably with innards dictated by engineers and not by marketing kretins.

What I do like with that Magnova thingy is that it seems to be somewhat modular, at least in concept. I also like the 400 MHz (I guess) LA (extension/option) - and quite cheap at that if I got that correctly (about €200 or so, probably +VAT). If I would look more closely I'd quite likely find some more features I like - but I don't look closer because I'm absolutely, positively not interested, at all, in a 1.6 GSa/s scope for €3000 to €6000.

I'll close with a prognosis: I guess that sooner rather than later we'll see Siglent and/or Micsig upping their game and, e.g. also offer LA options with 1.5 or 2 GSa/s that is, taking the good points of the Magnova and implementing them.

For the time being I'll order a 3000 HD from Siglent, I guess.

P.S. a word to Batronix: I get it, designing and producing in Germany (or across the ocean) is way more costly than in China. I really get it. But guess what? If a company is at a serious disadvantage and has to demand significantly higher prices than others then I don't buy from them, simple as that. The quality of Yogogawa scopes, for example, would be a reason for me to accept somewhat higher prices - but definitely not the exorbitant prices they demand, no matter whether it's them or their country that's responsible.
P.S 2: Sorry, but if a not-tier1 player offers hardly more or, in fact even less than Siglent but asks +50% of Siglent they are on the wrong road, a road that certainly doesn't lead to major success.
That said, I admire your ball size and wish you the best.

[ebastler]

Various strong opinions aside, you are in the market for a 500 MHz scope, don't care much about the screen size and explicitly do not want to touch the screen. So the Magnova is not for you; understood. You might be posting in the wrong thread then? 

The Siglent 3000X HD is, no doubt, a pretty powerful scope. I wish I could justify to get one for my hobby use! But be aware that it violates your acceptance criterion of 2.5 GSa/s when used with more than two channels, and that you will have to touch the screen...

[pdenisowski]

After all, R&S who started as "just a dealer" has evolved into a heavyweight

We've been designing and manufacturing test and measurement instruments since day one (90 years ago) - that's how we started as a company

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/about/magazine/tradition-of-innovation/tradition-of-innovation_256967.html

With regards to scopes, we did have some relationship with Tektronix (not sure about the details - before my time at R&S), but we've been designing and manufacturing our own scopes for well over a decade now. 

But I won't argue with the word "heavyweight"

[joeqsmith]

...
Actually I'm in the market for a 350 MHz scope ...

The reasons start with me actually looking for a 500 MHz scope, ....

Welcome.  I didn't make it past that second statement.   

[moerm]

You might be posting in the wrong thread then?

Pardon me then, I didn't know that only praise for the Magnova is allowed.

The Siglent 3000X HD is, no doubt, a pretty powerful scope. I wish I could justify to get one for my hobby use! But be aware that it violates your acceptance criterion of 2.5 GSa/s when used with more than two channels

OK, let's play your funny "focus on and pick what serves your view" game. I didn't say that I require min. 2.5 GS/s on all 4 channels.

I got it, it was evident enough in your posts in this thread, that you are a fan of Batronix and/or their scope. And I did not in any way attack you. I can live well with others having differing views. You might want to try that too.

And btw I also didn't bash Batronix, I merely provided a potential customers feedback.

After all, R&S who started as "just a dealer" has evolved into a heavyweight

We've been designing and manufacturing test and measurement instruments since day one (90 years ago) - that's how we started as a company

Yes, probably R&S manufactured some kind of TME early on, but I've seen more than a few cases where they simply sold equipment made by others, e.g. from japanese companies. IIRC I've even seen simply relabeled equipment.

With regards to scopes, ... we've been designing and manufacturing our own scopes for well over a decade now. 

I know and in fact I've been a fan of R&S TME for quite some time - until an Afug test of your RTM scope woke me up. The results were shocking and that's putting it mildly. Since then, as far as I'm concerned I like (and I mean really like) the HAMEG HMO scopes, including even the early ones with a R&S label that is, Hameg scopes without R&S firmware.

...
Actually I'm in the market for a 350 MHz scope ...

The reasons start with me actually looking for a 500 MHz scope, ....

Welcome.  I didn't make it past that second statement.   

Come on, you are not stupid enough to mean that seriously. And I think I have at least a vague idea of your intellectual capability as I've seen - and enjoyed - many videos from you as well as many posts from you.

Look, 350 MHz is the best they offer and talking about their scope it made sense to say that I could be a potential customer. Plus, I explained why the 500 MHz are not really critical for me.

[ebastler]

I got it, it was evident enough in your posts in this thread, that you are a fan of Batronix and/or their scope. And I did not in any way attack you. I can live well with others having differing views. You might want to try that too.

And btw I also didn't bash Batronix, I merely provided a potential customers feedback.

I did not attack you either. Although I must say that I found your first post a bit too long, too opinionated, and too ripe with strong language.

But you are clearly not a "potential customer" and have made that very clear through the requirements and preferences you stated. That's what I wanted to point out.

[vk6zgo]

You might be posting in the wrong thread then?

Pardon me then, I didn't know that only praise for the Magnova is allowed.

The Siglent 3000X HD is, no doubt, a pretty powerful scope. I wish I could justify to get one for my hobby use! But be aware that it violates your acceptance criterion of 2.5 GSa/s when used with more than two channels

OK, let's play your funny "focus on and pick what serves your view" game. I didn't say that I require min. 2.5 GS/s on all 4 channels.

I got it, it was evident enough in your posts in this thread, that you are a fan of Batronix and/or their scope. And I did not in any way attack you. I can live well with others having differing views. You might want to try that too.

And btw I also didn't bash Batronix, I merely provided a potential customers feedback.

After all, R&S who started as "just a dealer" has evolved into a heavyweight

We've been designing and manufacturing test and measurement instruments since day one (90 years ago) - that's how we started as a company

Yes, probably R&S manufactured some kind of TME early on, but I've seen more than a few cases where they simply sold equipment made by others, e.g. from japanese companies. IIRC I've even seen simply relabeled equipment.

With regards to scopes, ... we've been designing and manufacturing our own scopes for well over a decade now. 

I know and in fact I've been a fan of R&S TME for quite some time - until an Afug test of your RTM scope woke me up. The results were shocking and that's putting it mildly. Since then, as far as I'm concerned I like (and I mean really like) the HAMEG HMO scopes, including even the early ones with a R&S label that is, Hameg scopes without R&S firmware.

...
Actually I'm in the market for a 350 MHz scope ...

The reasons start with me actually looking for a 500 MHz scope, ....

Welcome.  I didn't make it past that second statement.   

Come on, you are not stupid enough to mean that seriously. And I think I have at least a vague idea of your intellectual capability as I've seen - and enjoyed - many videos from you as well as many posts from you.

Look, 350 MHz is the best they offer and talking about their scope it made sense to say that I could be a potential customer. Plus, I explained why the 500 MHz are not really critical for me.

R&S were founded 90 odd years ago, & have been making test equipment from the beginning.
 
They have been heavily involved in high level radio comms & broadcast/TV equipment & TE for both fields for 70 plus years.

Far from "some kind of", their equipment has been always regarded as "top-tier" (and with a price to match!).

They weren't makers of Oscilloscopes till relatively recently (although even that is now a decade plus).

[moerm]

R&S were founded 90 odd years ago, & have been making test equipment from the beginning.
 
They have been heavily involved in high level radio comms & broadcast/TV equipment & TE for both fields for 70 plus years.

Far from "some kind of", their equipment has been always regarded as "top-tier" (and with a price to match!).

They weren't makers of Oscilloscopes till relatively recently (although even that is now a decade plus).

My point wasn't to bash R&S. I know that they are considered as among the best in RF. But I also know that I've definitely seen quite some TME with a R&S label on it that was produced by a japanese company. Whatever, this thread is about a scope, so that, R&S scopes, is what I focused on. And in that field I would, although formerly a fan of R&S, absolutely not buy one of their scopes after the RTM clusterf_ck. Also, as an add on, I consider a company building scopes with a glossy screen as insane and evidently not guided by engineering and rationality. It seems though that their higher end scopes don't have glossy screens. Maybe they just assumed that those who buy their lower end scopes would be attracted by something glossy; if so they'd certainly not be alone in that.

I did not attack you either. Although I must say that I found your first post a bit too long, too opinionated, and too ripe with strong language.

But you are clearly not a "potential customer" and have made that very clear through the requirements and preferences you stated. That's what I wanted to point out.

Well, that's your perception and interpretation and I accept it as such.

- Yes, you are right, I'm not a potential customer and I explained why. Unlike how some (wink wink nudge nudge) paint it, I did however bash neither Batronix nor their scope. I simply and frankly stated my position. Which, in fact is a service to them. I'll say it in the words of a restaurant owner with whom I later became friends: "(constructively) criticizing us is very important for us. There is nothing worse for us than what many unsatisfied customer do; they smile politely, leave, and never return. With criticism we at least learn what customers don't like and can change, adapt, improve".
And I sincerely tried to be fair and to mention the positive as well.

That said, I admit that I'm probably a "difficult" customer, because I try to be properly informed, to know what I want/need and what not and in which order of priority. Plus, I'm seriously allergic to marketing blabla. In other words, it takes a lot for me to like a scope, SA, multimeter or whatever, let alone a brand.

Friendly greetings