new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[Skagit]

Oh I'm not complaining, just adding my data point to the pile.

Got a shipping notification an hour ago for a Monday delivery date, unfortunately I'll be gone camping. #LifeIsHard 

[luisprata]

Para os brasileiros do forum...

DSO-X 2004 results...

[NA5WH]

Just got FedEx shipping notice for my scope from Testequity. It's already been picked up from their site, and should arrive at my house by Wednesday 4/5. Seems like kinda a long time to get from Moorpark CA to Minneapolis MN, but it's probably just FedEx ground.

Jealous.....   still don't have my date from Testequity. 
Yeah I think I also got next-day order date from ordering....  as this is my first purchase from it, seems like the online ordering is not 100% .. its like it got processed to paper orders at later time, since I got like a whole confirmation and new customer packet stuff.

[Fungus]

If you are really interested in buying it then get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.

Yeah, I'll just pop by the local office and ask if I can have one to play with for a couple of months.

(seriously, in what part of the world does that work?)

[Neganur]

Actually in my case (capital city area) Keysight's main distributor Testhouse Nordic is more than willing to come and hep me choose the right instrument and even send someone around to demo it, but you also need to have sincere buying intentions. I think a day or a couple of days loaning is doable but it sure is easier if you're a company who is asking for it.

You may sometimes have to wait until a unit is available but they certainly don't show you the door.

I don't know if they would do it for a bottom range scope though.

But yeah, I imagine it's pretty difficult if you don't live near a distributor.

As for the RTB2004, they simply don't have it available yet.

[nctnico]

If you are really interested in buying it then get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.

Yeah, I'll just pop by the local office and ask if I can have one to play with for a couple of months.

(seriously, in what part of the world does that work?)

Ofcourse you can't have it for a couple of months but a couple of weeks shouldn't be a problem (if it is: walk away). OTOH the last time I got a Lecroy quoted the payment term was 90 days or return it. You simply cannot be expected to spend several $k blindly.

[JoHr]

It can be a problem if you look at a signal (zoom in, scroll, enable measurement) with the scope in run mode. You might create a trigger and erase the measurement you made. Basically the sensitivity to tapping forces you to use single trigger mode / switch between run & stop mode in cases where it shouldn't be really necessary.

Potentially this issue could be fixed in firmware (partially at least).  I can see two possibilities:

1) If the screen digitizer is sensitive enough (many are)  it could detect an imminent touch (before physical contact is made) and disable the trigger for the duration of the touch.

2) Alternatively they could implement a double buffer mode that stores the last triggered event momentarily and won't actually display it unless no touch is detected.  This would add some lag to the measurement but it would prevent accidental triggering when using the touch screen.

Either method would preferably be toggleable.  You would only need to enable it for high sensitivity measurements.  Now, whether R&S considers the problem big enough to implement such solutions is another question.

I think Dave got a broken device ...

1) this is weird ... you can´t bypass microphonics by disabling the trigger while you´re touching. This would lead to permanent stopping of acquisition when you e.g.
just want to add a measurement. For setting scales or position its absolutely OK to stop the acquisition, rescale previous ACQs and restart after setting the hardware.
But for everything else doing the same?? This will lead to a chopped up UI feeling and makes the scope feels more sluggish.

2) sounds like a segmented mode with discarding all acquisitions done while touch was detected ...   

[KrzysztofB]

Tried to get hit-a-trigger on Tektronix DPO3034. Well, was possible, but no one is treating scope that bad. Gentle taps, not a chance.

[Myrv]

I think Dave got a broken device ...

Possibly. His seems to be a little more sensitive than what Mike is reporting.  Time will tell I guess.

1) this is weird ... you can´t bypass microphonics by disabling the trigger while you´re touching. This would lead to permanent stopping of acquisition when you e.g.
just want to add a measurement. For setting scales or position its absolutely OK to stop the acquisition, rescale previous ACQs and restart after setting the hardware.
But for everything else doing the same?? This will lead to a chopped up UI feeling and makes the scope feels more sluggish.

I didn't say it would bypass microphonics.  I was replying to nctnico who noted this effect could cause inadvertent triggering while examining a trace.  I was just noting it is conceivable a fix for this could be implemented in software by trying to disable triggering during a touch event (basically an auto run/stop on touch).   It would be clunky for for sure (and possibly impossible depending on the digitizer) and definitely not something you would want to be running all the time but it could be a way to mitigate the problem without having to do a complete hardware re-design.  (You really could just do it manually by hitting the run/stop  yourself before using the touch screen but that would be even more annoying IMHO)

2) sounds like a segmented mode with discarding all acquisitions done while touch was detected ...   

Yes, essentially that would be it.    Being able to correlate touch events with segmented memory shouldn't be too hard (although I admit it may induce unacceptable amounts of lag) . And yes, it could lead to a sparse history but I'm not sure that would be a huge issue (I'm sure somebody will correct me on this...).    Of course it would be need to be a configurable mode as well.  And I was just noting this is a possible software solution (bandaid) to a possible hardware issue.

I guess what it comes done to is how often are you going to be tapping on the screen and wanting to use the data collected at that exact moment . Generally I think you would use the screen to set something up then you take the measurement (so spurious microphonic induced signals during screen taping aren't the end of the world).  One exception to this I can think of is setting trigger levels. Doing that on the screen while generating spurious noise would indeed be a royal pain. There is a separate trigger level knob though so that should suffice.  I guess doing persistence measurements could be problematic as well (but again could be handled by option 2 above).  I'm sure there are others.

[slurry]

I managed to fiddle around with a RTB2004 today, i did not have a chance to tap on it before it hanged and presented some garble on the display 
..but it's an early firmware, R&S customers are supposed to just sit down and patiently wait for a stable FW 

After a reboot i was able to enjoy the scope, the screen makes it a joy to use, pinch, swipe and select functions, pure fun!

The screenshot are (default) in BMP and due to the resolution the size is 3091kB on the USB-stick, also the savetime is a few seconds, due to the size of course.
(attached pictures are saved in JPG but still 1280x824 24bit)

[mikeselectricstuff]

I managed to fiddle around with a RTB2004 today, i did not have a chance to tap on it before it hanged and presented some garble on the display 
..but it's an early firmware, R&S customers are supposed to just sit down and patiently wait for a stable FW 

Apart from the minor bugs I found & mentioned in the video, and the low-speed update thing Dave found, I've only seen one 'crashy' type issue, where the touchscreen stopped working and needed a powercycle to restore. This was very soon after I got it and wasn't at all familiar with it.  I've been using it as my main scope for a few days now & haven't seen anything else yet. 
Considering the amount of stuff in this scope, I think they're doing pretty well bug-wise. What's more important is how the deal with issues - they acknowledged most of my bugs and suggestions pretty much straight away, though I wouldn't be surprised if they hold off a little before doing an update until there are a few more scopes out there to shake out any more initial bugs.

[ws2812b]

Cool where did you find a unit? Or are you a happy receiver of one of the first units? Still I'm waiting for mine: due next week

[Fungus]

If you are really interested in buying it then get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.

Yeah, I'll just pop by the local office and ask if I can have one to play with for a couple of months.

(seriously, in what part of the world does that work?)

Ofcourse you can't have it for a couple of months but a couple of weeks shouldn't be a problem (if it is: walk away). OTOH the last time I got a Lecroy quoted the payment term was 90 days or return it. You simply cannot be expected to spend several $k blindly.

Oh, I see. The 'pay for it then take it back' type of "loan". 

[nctnico]

You are reading it wrong: payment after 90 days or return means you can evaluate it for 90 days before paying 

[slurry]

Be aware that when, and if, you buy a ex-DEMO unit it will have a K0 demo option installed which will have been expired.


I forgot, there is some interesting TV-triggers not seen in older scopes.. 

[kcbrown]

You are reading it wrong: payment after 90 days or return means you can evaluate it for 90 days before paying 

That's actually quite interesting.  Do all of the major manufacturers do that?   More to the point, as relates to this thread, does R&S do that?

I'm skeptical, but not to the point of closed-mindedness...

[slurry]

Most brands local sales representatives can arrange to loan you a DEMO-unit and usually you sign a contract for, say, two weeks, then you will have to return the unit otherwise they will send you an invoice.

No brand will loan a unit to a random guy, you have to represent a company or just happen to have a popular Youtube-channel 

[BrianSchmalz]

We've had trouble getting loaners because they only have so many DEMO units available, and they always seem to be out at other companies being 'demoed'. (I'll admit that I'm guilty of requesting a demo unit for a piece of equipment I knew I only needed for a couple of days rather than pay to rent it.) My guess is that if you borrow expensive tools often and never buy anything, they'll stop loaning stuff to you.

[Neganur]

@slurry: *.bmp only? I skimmed the manual and the online help - any way to select the format to save in (e.g. *.png) ?

[ws2812b]

@Neganur at second 38 of this video
www.rohde-schwarz.com/uk/products/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/rtb2000videos/rtb2000-import-and-export-of-data-and-settings-via-usb_231068
It looks like there is PNG at least via USB.

[slurry]

The good thing is that you dont get any compression of your screenshots
I dont have the unit on hand so i cant check which formats that are available but as i recall the predecessor HMO-series did have .png so this one should have at least .png but .tiff would be slightly too much to ask for 

I'm not sure if the plan is to incorporate RTB in the R&S instrument view software,
that would be a good thing, handling screenshots, upload and modify masktests, user profiles, make reports and stuff like that.

[Fungus]

We've had trouble getting loaners because they only have so many DEMO units available, and they always seem to be out at other companies being 'demoed'.

That's what they tell you, sure. 

[JoHr]

@slurry: *.bmp only? I skimmed the manual and the online help - any way to select the format to save in (e.g. *.png) ?

... yes it has png as well as bmp on the regular screenshot

[ws2812b]

What does this instrument view software do?
If the unit holds what the video I just posted ( 4 posts up) promises, it's one of the coolest interfaces I've ever seen on a scope. Also the Webinterface Mike had looked really neat.

( It's like counting down for Christmas)

Link again as new page: www.rohde-schwarz.com/uk/products/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/rtb2000videos/rtb2000-import-and-export-of-data-and-settings-via-usb_231068

[nctnico]

@slurry: *.bmp only? I skimmed the manual and the online help - any way to select the format to save in (e.g. *.png) ?

... yes it has png as well as bmp on the regular screenshot

And PNG can use lossless compression so it is the perfect image format for test equipment screendumps.