Author Topic: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope  (Read 1459853 times)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4000 on: September 08, 2017, 02:48:16 pm »
To answer the question from a couple of days ago, yes, the PLL jitter was fixed.

Yes, two years ago, but certain forum members still can't sleep at night thinking about it.

(and some of them don't even own a DS1054Z...)

« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 03:45:55 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4001 on: September 08, 2017, 03:59:47 pm »
(and some of them don't even own a DS1054Z...)

Some of them do not own a Rigol DSO because their evaluations of both documentation and instrument revealed that Rigol is deceitful and makes poor quality products.

I do not need to own a DS1054Z to know that it is a poorly designed and low quality instrument.  That flawed PLL design should have been caught by quality control.  So should the likely hook problem reported in another discussion recently.
 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4002 on: September 08, 2017, 04:42:40 pm »
I do not need to own a DS1054Z to know that it is a poorly designed and low quality instrument.

Not going to pick sides here, but in my book value for money is still impressive, looking at Rigol from the perspective of electronics enthusiasts / tinkerers.
No one will be arguing about the fact, that professional electronics engineers might be better of spending at least an order of magnitude more on a scope. Just like you would pick a reliable Agilent / Fluke / HP / ... multimeter over a Uni-T one (even if the latter also provides incredible value for money). Professionals have a totally different scope of tool requirements *seewhatIdidthere?*

So...
What was your point again?
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Online RoGeorge

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4003 on: September 08, 2017, 05:00:57 pm »
Some of them do not own a Rigol DSO because their evaluations of both documentation and instrument revealed that Rigol is deceitful and makes poor quality products.

I do not need to own a DS1054Z to know that it is a poorly designed and low quality instrument.  That flawed PLL design should have been caught by quality control.  So should the likely hook problem reported in another discussion recently.

Again, it was not a PLL design issue, it was a software bug, and it was fixed.

From my experience, DS1054Z is not low quality at all, and considering its features and specs, and the fact that all its software upgrades can be unlocked for free, it's a great tool. In fact, it is so good that even today, at 3 years after it was launched, it is still unbeatable for its price. There is no real competitor for it.

Yes, sometimes there are bugs, but most of them were just corner cases, nothing that will make the whole oscilloscope unusable. All complex instruments have bugs, because all of them are, after all, software driven. Even the very expensive ones from the biggest manufacturers have bugs. And yes, I worked at the office with oscilloscopes 10-100 times more expensive then DS1054Z, and they are definitely not 10-100 times better then a DS1054Z, they are better, but not a big difference, they are almost the same.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to have an opinion, and mine it is that Rigol is not deceitful. On the contrary, they are making good instruments at an unexpectedly low price.

In my experience, DS1054Z served me well for 2 years, it's a keep, and if it would be to buy today a $400 scope, then I will buy it again, without any hesitation.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4004 on: September 08, 2017, 05:02:49 pm »
I do not need to own a DS1054Z to know that it is a poorly designed and low quality instrument.

So? It's still amazing value for money and a really useful thing to own. You want better? Spend more money.

The thing I don't get is the need to come in here and bash the DS1054Z over a bug that was completely fixed two years ago.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 05:07:03 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4005 on: September 08, 2017, 05:08:53 pm »
Anyway, everyone is entitled to have an opinion, and mine it is that Rigol is not deceitful.

Deceitful would be (for example): Posting a link to Dave's video showing the PLL problem but not posting the followup video that showed it was completely fixed a couple of weeks later by a firmware update.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 05:21:07 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline David Hess

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4006 on: September 08, 2017, 07:21:12 pm »
Again, it was not a PLL design issue, it was a software bug, and it was fixed.

And it was missed by quality control or rather the lack of it.  That is a repeating issue with Rigol and not with minor problems.

Quote
Anyway, everyone is entitled to have an opinion, and mine it is that Rigol is not deceitful.

Rigol deliberately manged various industry standard terms to make it seem that their DSOs support functions that they do not have.  They lied, repeatedly.  When I first found this in their documentation during evaluation of their DS1000A and DS1000E, I did not believe it and thought maybe it was a translation problem so I contacted their customer support and they unequivocally lied to me as well.  They continue to do so.

Quote
Yes, sometimes there are bugs, but most of them were just corner cases, nothing that will make the whole oscilloscope unusable.

The problem for me is that I would want to buy a new DSO for capabilities that my existing instruments lack.  When those capabilities are broken whether they are "corner cases" or not, then the new DSO has no advantage over the old one.  For example in this case, the new DSO cannot even do thing my old analog oscilloscopes can do like make RMS noise measurements.

So great, arguably none of these problems make the oscilloscope unusable but they also defeat many of the reasons to consider it an upgrade.

Quote
All complex instruments have bugs, because all of them are, after all, software driven. Even the very expensive ones from the biggest manufacturers have bugs.

My standard for quality is not based on other companies also making poor products.

I do not need to own a DS1054Z to know that it is a poorly designed and low quality instrument.

So? It's still amazing value for money and a really useful thing to own. You want better? Spend more money.

Have I said otherwise?  It is a great value for the money even with its warts.  I spent less for better however I knew exactly what would be sufficient for my needs.
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4007 on: September 08, 2017, 07:21:19 pm »

Some of them [forum member] do not own a Rigol DSO because their evaluations of both documentation and instrument revealed that Rigol is deceitful and makes poor quality products.

I do not need to own a DS1054Z to know that it is a poorly designed and low quality instrument.  That flawed PLL design should have been caught by quality control.  So should the likely hook problem reported in another discussion recently.

I think that is an unfair caricature of Rigol. I do not consider the DS1054Z and its documentation to be top notch, but it's not as poorly designed and low quality to ascribe them the reputation of being deceitful either. Surely you must have some other basis?
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4008 on: September 08, 2017, 07:48:56 pm »
It is a great value for the money even with its warts.  I spent less for better however I knew exactly what would be sufficient for my needs.

I'm curious for what you spent less and how it excels too. Maybe I made a mistake? To a lesser extent, I'm also curious to know what they "manged" and lied about, specifically. It seems to me that the big three dance around this just the same, but maybe not to some blatant extent. It's all about specsmanship and who can get away with what. Is that not well known? Anyway, that does not seem specific to the DS1054Z.

In my case, specific things like RMS noise measurements was not the litmus test. I was upgrading from a nice Tek that I was perfectly happy with, but no longer even turns on. I do not know where it excels in performance otherwise, but I'd be interested to know. What do I have, I think a 2430A? I still would like to fix it, too... Maybe that would convince me to dump my Rigol into the sea.

 

Offline CustomEngineerer

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4009 on: September 08, 2017, 11:47:38 pm »
It would be more interesting to know wether they fixed the design problems with the PLL circuitry.

Why, what problem is it causing?
A few but Fungus doesn't really want to answer this fully.

Members MarkL and Bud are those that narrowed it down to design problems with the PLL and then Dave did a vid on it.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/

Then Bud started looking hard at his own DS2000A, which he documented in full:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/

So yes, if there is a new revision MB it will be interesting to see if these things have been addressed,

Again, what problem is the hardware PLL issue causing? I've still never seen anyone show any negative affect because of it (not jitter, that was fixed with a firmware update before yaigol). So what are these few problems you are referring to?
 

Online tautech

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4010 on: September 09, 2017, 03:39:30 am »
It would be more interesting to know wether they fixed the design problems with the PLL circuitry.

Why, what problem is it causing?
A few but Fungus doesn't really want to answer this fully.

Members MarkL and Bud are those that narrowed it down to design problems with the PLL and then Dave did a vid on it.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/

Then Bud started looking hard at his own DS2000A, which he documented in full:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/

So yes, if there is a new revision MB it will be interesting to see if these things have been addressed,

Again, what problem is the hardware PLL issue causing?
The component values and ADC settings prevented the PLL from locking.
If there indeed been MB changes that would be good to know as member borjam questions, as do I.
Quote
I've still never seen anyone show any negative affect because of it (not jitter, that was fixed with a firmware update before yaigol).
Yes, fixed by masking with firmware of the PLL design errors. Not all scopes were affected to the same level, such is the minor differences in component batch values:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg566538/#msg566538
Another that MarkL had a look at:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg583676/#msg583676

Bud's short summary:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg577669/#msg577669

Daves screenshots of before and after firmware:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg578859/#msg578859

I've been following these issues for some years and I'm still not convinced the design is "beyond measure" but if there has been a HW change and if indeed PLL component values are what they should be then we know the product has been improved.


So rather than keep pointing fingers, somebody open the latest unit and have a look.
For reference, pics of the ADC and PLL componentry:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg553418/#msg553418



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Offline ebastler

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4011 on: September 09, 2017, 06:29:19 am »
Yes, fixed by masking with firmware of the PLL design errors.

Fixed by configuring the PLL parameters such that it runs stably with the original component values. What's wrong with that? Why would you call that "masking errors"?

Quote
Daves screenshots of before and after firmware:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg578859/#msg578859

The side bands are 70dB down with the new PLL configuration. Looks good to me.
 

Online tautech

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4012 on: September 09, 2017, 10:26:15 am »
Yes, fixed by masking with firmware of the PLL design errors.

Fixed by configuring the PLL parameters such that it runs stably with the original component values. What's wrong with that?

It's a bodge.
Read all the jitter thread and tell us what has been done to get the ADC to meet the manufacturer's design spec.
To make the PLL work with the HW so that the fundamental frequency was dominant there are only a few things that can be changed, reference frequencies and oscillator supply current.
Buds posts explain this in depth.

Quote
Why would you call that "masking errors"?
I didn't.
What I said was the PLL design errors were masked with the new firmware.

Quote
Daves screenshots of before and after firmware:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg578859/#msg578859
Quote
The side bands are 70dB down with the new PLL configuration. Looks good to me.

It might, but the evidence presented by Bud shows the PLL is still not locked as it should be if the design had followed the ADC datasheet.
Again, read Buds posts.


Hopefully someone will do some tests/checks to see if this latest MB PCB has been revised.
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Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4013 on: September 09, 2017, 11:17:14 am »
So rather than keep pointing fingers, somebody open the latest unit and have a look.
For reference, pics of the ADC and PLL componentry:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg553418/#msg553418

DS1054Z
Mainboard V01.04_20141024
HW Version V[654][32].[10]

Looks exactly like in the pictures cited above. Same chip, same layout.
He’s like a trained ape. Without the training.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4014 on: September 09, 2017, 12:05:46 pm »
I've been following these issues for some years and I'm still not convinced the design is "beyond measure" but if there has been a HW change and if indeed PLL component values are what they should be then we know the product has been improved.

a) In what way could changing the PLL improve anything? What problems is the current PLL causing?

b) At this stage of the product life cycle I'd expect any hardware changes to be with an eye on reducing costs, not on improving anything.

 

Online tooki

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4015 on: September 09, 2017, 12:28:02 pm »
(and some of them don't even own a DS1054Z...)

Some of them do not own a Rigol DSO because their evaluations of both documentation and instrument revealed that Rigol is deceitful and makes poor quality products.

I do not need to own a DS1054Z to know that it is a poorly designed and low quality instrument.  That flawed PLL design should have been caught by quality control.  So should the likely hook problem reported in another discussion recently.
Oh puh-leez. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But it is clearly better than nothing, which is exactly what the alternative would have been for me. Unlike USA, there is practically no used test gear market here, so since my budget didn't allow for a big-name scope, it was the rigol or nothing. And so far, I haven't really run into something the rigol really failed at where a better one would have worked. So all in all, my learning has been huge thanks to it. And heck, learning to know the limitations of equipment is also a really important lesson.
 
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Offline mnementh

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4016 on: October 10, 2017, 01:05:49 am »
For those looking to buy one, Arrow is running a special through Friday - $50 off $200 or more AND Free Overnight shipping to the Continental US with promo code FIFTY. You can see in the ScreenCap below that all of the RIGOL stock appears to be eligible. You can probably get our preferred vendor TEquipment.net to price match; I do like their service.

Cheers,


mnem
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Offline Yannik

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4017 on: October 28, 2017, 08:09:38 pm »
My Scope (purchased a few days ago) came with firmware 04.04.SP3.

Is this version newer than v00.04.04.03.02?

Trying to upgrade to the publicly available v00.04.04.03.02 gives me an "Caution: An older software version detected" error and fails to update.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any information on the 04.04.SP3 firmware.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4018 on: October 28, 2017, 08:54:24 pm »
My Scope (purchased a few days ago) came with firmware 04.04.SP3.

Is this version newer than v00.04.04.03.02?

Trying to upgrade to the publicly available v00.04.04.03.02 gives me an "Caution: An older software version detected" error and fails to update.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any information on the 04.04.SP3 firmware.

v00.04.04.03.02 is displayed on the scope as 04.04.SP3.
So, you have already the most recent version.
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4019 on: October 28, 2017, 09:04:07 pm »
Yes.

To display the full System Info screen, press very rapidly in the front panel Trigger section: Menu Menu Force Menu; then Utility>System>System Info. You should then see the actual Software Version number, along with some other information that isn't displayed in the partial System Info screen.
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Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4020 on: November 05, 2017, 04:36:35 pm »
Last week I bought another DS1054Z for a students lab at our university. The scope now comes with PVP2150 probes instead of the RP2200.
The probes are all black and the 1x / 10x switch is recessed. 1x rise time is much better, RP probes have 20cm longer cables. Other than that both types seem pretty comparable and come with the same accessories.
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Online tooki

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4021 on: November 05, 2017, 06:56:44 pm »
Last week I bought another DS1054Z for a students lab at our university. The scope now comes with PVP2150 probes instead of the RP2200.
The probes are all black and the 1x / 10x switch is recessed. 1x rise time is much better, RP probes have 20cm longer cables. Other than that both types seem pretty comparable and come with the same accessories.
That change was made last year, FYI. They look comfier to use than the older ones, what do you think?
 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4022 on: November 05, 2017, 08:54:03 pm »
That change was made last year, FYI. They look comfier to use than the older ones, what do you think?

Since Rigol does not really advertise these kind of changes, I did not notice, but was a little surprised when I unboxed the new scope (together with a DP832 bench power supply).
I like the recessed mode selection switch, since on the RP2200 the switches tend to have a live on their own - so that is a very welcome change in design for sure.
Regarding the overall handling I can not yet tell, because I only had time to unbox the devices and report to our purchasing department that delivery was complete. I think the 20cm shorter cables will not be an issue here, because the test bench is not that big either. Generally having longer cables is not a bad thing though :)
Wednesday I am in that lab and will have time to do the basic check-up, firmware update (if required) and am curious to take a look at the noise level of the DP832 with the new scope.
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Offline ebastler

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4023 on: November 05, 2017, 09:48:53 pm »
... on the RP2200 the switches tend to have a live on their own ...

Indeed; I also find that the attenuator switches on those probes move far too easily. I have removed the yellow switch caps on mine (they can easily be pried off using your favorite fingernail). I leave the probes set to 10:1 nearly all the time. In the rare instances where I need 1:1 the switch can be moved with a small screwdriver blade.
 

Offline petl

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4024 on: December 28, 2017, 01:01:56 pm »
Since the bug is not present in my oscilloscope, I thought that maybe I didn't used the correct settings/signals to reproduce it, so I asked for more detailed steps to reproduce.

Looking at the PLL's spectrum in the Dave's video, it seems that the PLL jitter bug was fixed (not only masked) long time ago, so no further questions. I have no intention to reproduce fixed bugs, thank you.

To answer the question from a couple of days ago, yes, the PLL jitter was fixed.

Does that mean the 500uV/div option is working fine now?
 


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