New Scope Demoboard from Batronix

[Martin72]

Hi,
Today I had discovered by chance an apparently brand new demo board from Batronix:
https://www.batronix.com/versand/demoboards/Batronix-MSO-Demoboard.html

It is so new that there is no english description for it yet.
I read through it and decided to order it because it has a few more features than my STB-3 board from Siglent.
It comes with a very detailed training manual on more than 50 pages, which is not known from other demo boards...
Bodeplot, FFT, trigger types, decoder signals up to Manchester, pass/fail mask test, signal generator with error, RF test section, etc.
Currently available at an introductory price for 20% less.
You can argue about the sense or nonsense of a demoboard, but I like such things...
When I get it, I will play around with it and post further here.

[mwb1100]

I had seen it mentioned on some google search result a while back, but couldn't find a mention on Batronix itself.  I figured it was vaporware, but apparently was wrong.

You can argue about the sense or nonsense of a demoboard, but I like such things...

Me too, it would let me experiment and learn about signals that I have no current work-related (or hobby related) need or equipment.

But 200 EUR shipped to USA (including the intro discount) is a bit much.  I imagine low volume and cost of good docs (the examples in the images appear to be pretty good) must account for a fair bit of the price.  Though a price that is too high doesn't always stop me in some irrational moments.

[pascal_sweden]

The English link to the product seems not to be active.

If I search for "Batronix MSO-Demoboard" on the main page:
https://www.batronix.com/shop/index.html

I get a result, but it can not be clicked.

So for now, I will go with the German website 

[Martin72]

Therefore I plan to "introduce" it here, when I have the time for it.

But 200 EUR shipped to USA (including the intro discount) is a bit much.

My STB-3 was more expensive, the rigol board (yes, they got one) too.
OK, after the intro discount, the price is nearly the same like the others - don´t know what makes demoboards so "expensive".
If it wasn't for intro-discount, I probably wouldn't have bought it as soon as I saw it.
In addition, I still had some credit on my PayPal account, which made the thing then even easier, because usually I have not even remembered that there is something.
The rigol board, rare to see:

https://www.batronix.com/shop/demoboards/Rigol-DS6000-Demoboard.html

[tautech]

STB3
https://siglentna.com/product/stb-3-oscilloscope-demo-training-board/

[pdenisowski]

You can argue about the sense or nonsense of a demoboard, but I like such things...

Yes, demo boards can be very helpful.  We have several versions but we don't sell them.

[pdenisowski]

But 200 EUR shipped to USA (including the intro discount) is a bit much.  I imagine low volume and cost of good docs (the examples in the images appear to be pretty good) must account for a fair bit of the price.

OK, after the intro discount, the price is nearly the same like the others - don´t know what makes demoboards so "expensive".

Can't comment on why they cost what they do, but as someone who is constantly creating "demo" signals for presentations, videos, etc. a demo board can save an awful lot of time and money.

Try creating half a dozen different serial data signals, some runt and glitch signals, etc. without using a demo board and let me know how much time / money you spent doing that  

Oh, and many of them can also be used to practice / demo EMC troubleshooting (e.g. with a near-field probe).

For the content I make, I don't usually use demo boards, since I often need more flexibility than a demo board will provide.  But as a training tool, demo boards are - in my opinion - well worth the money.  [And again, I don't think we sell our demo boards ... not sure if we should look into that ....]

[pdenisowski]

Was looking at the manual and noticed all of the screenshots were made with R&S oscilloscopes, most of them from the new MXO4: nice 

https://www.batronix.com/files/Batronix/MSO-Demoboard/Batronix-MSO-Demoboard-web.pdf

[Martin72]

Batronix wrote me today, I would be one of the first orderers and they would send me a printed manual as soon as it is ready, I think that is nice.
I had written back, a manual and website in English would be almost more important.
Answer back, they are already on it, still takes some time...

[egonotto]

Hello,

With the help of deepl, not german speakers can still work well with the manual.

Best regards
egonotto

[egonotto]

Hello,

They used an RTA4004 three times:
Mask tests on page 26
Frequency response analysis on page 32
XY representation on page 33

Best regards
egonotto

[tv84]

We have several versions but we don't sell them.

Bad boy!  Martin72 surely would buy one for his collection.   

most of them from the new MXO4: nice 

Martin, I think this is a sign... 

I would be one of the first orderers

"one of the first" as in "only one"?   

Just kidding and showing my envy.

[Martin72]

"one of the first" as in "only one"?

Possible, my friend...
I can´t imagine that it will be sold million times, but le´s see how it performs.

Martin, I think this is a sign...

........

[switchabl]

Keysight has some nice training signal generators: https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/7018-02756/data-sheets/5990-6690.pdf

They even come with a basic oscilloscope built-in. You should get one for your collection. 

[Martin72]

Too expensive...
And with the batronix board, my "collection" will grow up to two.
That´s enough.
No kidding, I'm actually thinking about using the board for educational purposes if it's any good.

[pdenisowski]

We have several versions but we don't sell them.

Bad boy!  Martin72 surely would buy one for his collection.   

And with the batronix board, my "collection" will grow up to two.
That´s enough.

Once you start collecting R&S demo boards, there's no stopping

[pdenisowski]

"one of the first" as in "only one"?

Possible, my friend...

Oh, I'm pretty sure someone else has already ordered one .....

[tv84]

Oh, I'm pretty sure someone else has already ordered one .....

Martin is infectious... 

^{Get your revenge by facilitating him a nice MXO4 discount... shhh....}

[2N3055]

Oh, I'm pretty sure someone else has already ordered one .....

Martin is infectious... 

^{Get your revenge by facilitating him a nice MXO4 discount... shhh....}

[Martin72]

Board has arrived...
It comes with an USB-cable and it´s tiny...very tiny comparing to my STB-3 board.

Martin

[LoneWolf6912]

Definitely not cheap. But looks pretty promising.

[Martin72]

Hi,

Yes but it seems this is the price you have to pay for, the boards from rigol and siglent aren´t cheaper.
Meanwhile I´ve downloaded the manual and read the first chapters.
For example starting with chapter 2.4, triggersystem.
Edge, pulsewidth, dropout/timeout, window, slope, runt....each is explained and how to use the board for it.
Then it continues with the roll mode, average acquisition, peak acquisition, cursor, measurements, X-Y mode, FFT, reference signal, mask test, persistence, math function, etc..
It is always explained what it is and how to display it with the help of the board.
I will work through this bit by bit and present it here - actually a video would be better suited for this.
I have not yet done anything, but it is already apparent that there is no "better" or "worse" compared to my STB-3 from Siglent, at the signal level.
That complements each other, partly.
But where the Batronix board clearly "wins" is the documentation.
Without any doubt.
To be continued.

[tautech]

But where the Batronix board clearly "wins" is the documentation.

Yes, they don't make scopes so need hold your hand for whatever scope you connect to it !

STB-3 instructions OTOH provide screenshots each showing scope settings to replicate results. Sometimes the best teacher is doing it yourself and learning how to properly drive your scope.......but no one set of documentation can possibly cover all brands or even user ability.

[Martin72]

My dear Rob, I really don't mean any harm, and I always think your efforts are great  , but in the end there are no excuses for sloppy documentation.
And deep down you know that, I don't think it should be the job of siglent supporters to make light of their sloppiness.
What do you think would happen to us if our customers got such a document and we answered them, hey that's the only way you can learn.
That's just not a customer-friendly way to do things, especially when the product is quite expensive, as in this case.
Even Rigol does it better, which is a bit embarrassing:
https://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/UserGuide/DS6000DemoBoard_UserGuide_EN.pdf

[Andre77]

Hi!

I am of course very pleased to see that our demo board is already being discussed here on EEVblog a few days after its release.

Some answers to the questions that came up above:
- We already had the demoboard at embedded world fair in Nuremberg to create test signals for the oscilloscopes. So it has already been "visible" in some reports and videos in March.
- The English version of the documentation and the website is in progress and will be available in 1-2 weeks.
- As soon as the documentation is final, we will include it in printed form. The handling in group trainings is simply better with a printed documentation than with a pdf. However, the pdfs will still be available in addition.
- All customers who have already received a demo board without printed documentation will receive the printed version as soon as it is available.
- @Martin72: You were really fast, but not the first or only orderer. But you get the bronze medal as third orderer! ;-)

Best regards
Andre

[pdenisowski]

But where the Batronix board clearly "wins" is the documentation.
Without any doubt.

Now that I've had time to read through the entire manual, I have to say that the documentation is really excellent. 

And I say that as someone whose job involves producing presentations / videos on many of these same topics (e.g. UART, SPI, I2C, Triggering, XY mode, etc.) for the same audience and as someone who has run large, in-person hands-on oscilloscope training events.  Very impressive work by Batronix.

[pascal_sweden]

Can you provide some more info on those demo boards that are not for sale?

[Martin72]

- All customers who have already received a demo board without printed documentation will receive the printed version as soon as it is available.

Until then, I'll be content with my tablet....

- @Martin72: You were really fast, but not the first or only orderer. But you get the bronze medal as third orderer! ;-)

Damn...

[pdenisowski]

Can you provide some more info on those demo boards that are not for sale?

The R&S demo boards?  We do have some documentation on them but I'm not sure it's publicly sharable .... I'll check. 

That said, I'm 99% sure that we won't ever be selling those boards to customers.  We do sell some education kits for some other product categories, (e.g. spec ans) but not for oscilloscopes.

[pascal_sweden]

Very nice oscilloscope setup! Jealous!

[Martin72]

I borrowed the SDS1104X-E from work...

[Martin72]

First switching on, had too less time today for more..
Filtered/non-filtered output is interesting, I´ve played with the two selector switches to see the different signals the board got(I wonder how long the switches will last).
Like the GND areas on both sides of the board for the probes.
Tomorrow more time for it.

[KungFuJosh]

Those look interesting, but I can't bring myself to pay 40 Euros for shipping lol.

[Martin72]

Hehe...
I would be happy if I had to pay only 40 euro for shipping from the States to Germany.

[KungFuJosh]

Hehe...
I would be happy if I had to pay only 40 euro for shipping from the States to Germany.

I guess that depends what you're shipping. 😉

These test boards are all so expensive. They sound like they'd be fun for a couple hours, but then what? I should look on ebay or something. TE sells the Siglent ones used for full price. 🙄

EDIT: lol - nope. Just TE selling them used for full price on ebay also.

[Martin72]

I guess that depends what you're shipping.

Yep, a current probe from tek for example, 100 bucks.
A scope up to 300 bucks.
Maybe in the 40 euro you´ve mentioned tax is included - I´ve payed a few less than 199 all incl.

They sound like they'd be fun for a couple hours, but then what?

A few years ago I bought the Siglent board.
I played around with it for a few hours, then it was on the shelf, so far so true.
But if I just want to compare something between two scopes, this is faster to hand with the selectable signals.
But yes, it only makes sense if you do that more often, no question.

[EEVblog]

These test boards are all so expensive. They sound like they'd be fun for a couple hours, but then what? I should look on ebay or something. TE sells the Siglent ones used for full price. 🙄

They can be useful for setting up complex triggers and the like, making sure your scope will do what you want before you use it on your circuit.
And for educational situtations. This is why modern scopes use their AWG to produce "training signals".
But of course they are mostly used for demos and of course for scope comparison for reviewers like myself. Or even if you are evaluating a new high end scope and you want to easily test the functionality.

[KungFuJosh]

They can be useful for setting up complex triggers and the like, making sure your scope will do what you want before you use it on your circuit.
And for educational situtations. This is why modern scopes use their AWG to produce "training signals".
But of course they are mostly used for demos and of course for scope comparison for reviewers like myself. Or even if you are evaluating a new high end scope and you want to easily test the functionality.

That's why I like the idea of it. I want to learn about more complex triggering, and I like the hands-on approach. Sometimes I need to test something, and a friend of mine has to tell me how to setup the trigger. I'd like to be better at figuring that out on my own.

[Martin72]

It is a combination between a demoboard and it´s manual.
This one from batronix is good for (self-)education, here an example (translated with deepl):

2.4.3 Pulse width trigger (pulse width trigger)
The Pulse-Width-Trigger triggers on positive or negative pulses, which are shorter or
longer than an adjustable time. This can be used, for example, to trigger on periodic or
repeating patterns.
Depending on the manufacturer, this trigger is also called just Pulse or Width trigger.
Please perform the following steps:
- Set Select 1 to "7" and Select 2 to "B" (burst with 12 pulses).
- Measure the "DAC-FLT" signal (J5) with a probe or connect it with a BNC cable to an oscilloscope.
BNC cable to an oscilloscope channel.
- Set the vertical scaling to 500 mV/div and the horizontal scaling to
500 μs/div
- If you trigger with the "Edge" trigger on this signal, different pulses will
trigger and you will see a changing non-stationary display.
- Now use the "Pulse Width" trigger and trigger on the pause between the pulses.
the pulses. Set the trigger level a little bit below the "pause voltage",
e.g. to 0.8 V and the polarity of the trigger to positive. The pause time is approx.
800 μs, therefore set the trigger to e.g. > 400 μs.

[mwb1100]

Those look interesting, but I can't bring myself to pay 40 Euros for shipping lol.

The 20% intro discount (good though October) works out to free shipping to the USA.  I agree that 200 EUR (shipped) is still a bit much, but I'm pretty sure I'll be pulling the trigger by the time the intro deal is expired.  I expect to benefit not only from educational aspects, but also for the benefit Dave mentioned, "setting up complex triggers and the like, making sure your scope will do what you want before you use it on your circuit".

[pascal_sweden]

It would be interesting to find out more about the authors of the manual for the new scope demoboard from Batronix.

Are they working for Batronix itself, or do they work for another company?

Do they work for a test & measurement company or are they working for an electronics manufacturer?

What is their background and industry experience?

[egonotto]

Hello,

all is done with R&S MXO 4 or RTA4004; 1335.7700K04; 101141 (01.700 2021-11-11).

Best regards
egonotto

[Njk]

The crocodile area. The size is just right. It must be very convenient. I like it. No need to solder a short thick wire for that purpose. Is it typical of such boards or it's a patented Batronix feature?

[Martin72]

No, siglent doesn´t have this but I´m pretty sure it´s not patented..

My post with the Pulse-Trigger description:
Did it today, here a little video:

https://youtu.be/BcaGYK38wfs

Edit : Runt Trigger Demo:

https://youtu.be/zZSPzrX-KMk

[Andre77]

It would be interesting to find out more about the authors of the manual for the new scope demoboard from Batronix.
Are they working for Batronix itself, or do they work for another company?
Do they work for a test & measurement company or are they working for an electronics manufacturer?
What is their background and industry experience?

The demo board and the firmware were completely developed at Batronix and the manual was also created "in-house".

Nowadays, we are mainly known as a distributor for various T&M manufacturers, but we have been developing and distributing our own products for 23 years.

Therefore, I can say that we have very skilled people here. Not only the colleagues involved in demoboard development, but also in the other areas. This sounds a lot like advertising, but it is primarily intended as a big thank you to all the colleagues at Batronix who are also watching this thread very closely...

[pdenisowski]

Martin72 beat me to it, but hoping I'm the first on this side of the pond    I think Batronix shipped it less than an hour after I placed my order.

I'll work through the examples over the next few weeks and report back - initial impression is very positive.

[Martin72]

Yeah ! 

I'll work through the examples over the next few weeks and report back

Then we can compare things between the siglent HD and the MX04..

[pdenisowski]

Then we can compare things between the siglent HD and the MX04..

Sounds good.  I think I have an unfair advantage since the manual uses the MXO4 in most of its examples  

[2N3055]

Yeah ! 

I'll work through the examples over the next few weeks and report back

Then we can compare things between the siglent HD and the MX04..

Damn you, Martin, you are typhoid Mary of demo boards...
Darn thing is coming my way too... Just ordered. I blame you.. 100% NOT my fault...

@pdenisowski,  I call your MXO4 and raise you SDS6104 H12 Pro, just to make it a bit more even... 

Truth is, I always wanted a nice demoboard as a trusted reference. This one is starting to be popular, so we can share notes...

[Martin72]

Oh yeah, it´s getting more and more better..

I think I have an unfair advantage since the manual uses the MXO4 in most of its examples

Pulsewidth trigger (2.4.3):
As seen on my video I get a stable trigger on the signal, but only when I trigger on the pulsewidth (appx 50µs) itself, not on the "pause" between the pulses, like the manual mentioned.

[tv84]

I think I have an unfair advantage since the manual uses the MXO4 in most of its examples

I also thought about that. We forgive if you compensate us by comparing with one of "your own" boards. 

[pdenisowski]

I also thought about that. We forgive if you compensate us by comparing with one of "your own" boards. 

I'll see how many more I have left

But actually this presents an interesting opportunity to compare oscilloscopes by testing them all against the exact same DUT:  not something that happens very often.

Oh yeah, it´s getting more and more better..

Glad to see I'm not the only person who thinks this is going to be a lot of fun .... 

[tv84]

Damn you, Martin, you are typhoid Mary of demo boards...

 

Martin is a Batronix salesman!

[Martin72]

 

Glad to see I'm not the only person who thinks this is going to be a lot of fun ....

If I had enough time, I could "feed" some models with the board:

Lecroy WS9054, HDO6034A, WS3024Z.
Siglent SDS1104X-E, SDS2104Xplus, SDS2504 plus HD and the two portable ones.
Rigol DS1054Z and so on...

[pdenisowski]

I have to say again how much I like the documentation.  I have quite a few books on oscilloscopes (including a few in German), and it's refreshing to see something written (a) for beginners and (b) in a conversational, practical style. 

I particularly liked "Messerlebnis" - I'm going to have to find ways of working that word into conversations

[Martin72]

Ah, Bernstein..
I have the other one and was a little bit disappointed from the content.
More I like the short tek "book" about scopes.

[pdenisowski]

Working through the exercises in order - so far, very straightforward and signals are exactly as described.   I'm using a small screwdriver to (carefully) turn the knobs instead of using my fingers.  I like that they have a nice positive "click" at each position.

I also noticed that they labeled the flooded ground point a "Crocodile area"    (Note that the German for alligator clip is "Krokoklemme," so this makes perfect sense to me)
 
There might be one small typo:  in section 2.4.5 it says "Messen Sie das „SPI SCL“ Signal mit einem Tastkopf." (Measure the SPI SCL with a probe).

I think they meant I2C.  The SPI pin is labeled "SCK" and is idling low.  The I2C SCL signal is idling high looks exactly like the one in the manual.

[pdenisowski]

Was working on 2.4.7 (Window trigger) and got something that looked more like a differential CAN signal than the screenshot in the manual.  Then I realized I was plugged into the wrong BNC connector

Probably worth noting that if you're working straight through the manual, you should make sure the connector hasn't changed since the last exercise  

Edit: this was very clearly stated by Batronix, I just wasn't reading the instructions

[Martin72]

Ah, the slew rate trigger, on this I stopped yesterday...Must try it again.

[Martin72]

Must try it again

OK, I was a little bit confused...

When your first pic shows the right signalform, then I already got it right adjusted.
Because I stumbled over the screenshot (which is wrong titled, @Batronix) and over the sentence in the manual:

If your oscilloscope supports it, you can also set the slope trigger to
"Outside" and set the time range to 140 μs to 180 μs and to rising and falling edges.
 With this you should get all errors of this test signal triggered

This let me thought, it has to look like the screenshot (On top of that if you can see in the picture that the slewrate trigger was selected)....

[pdenisowski]

I worked through section 2.10 and everything has worked as expected.   A quick update:

1)  I like the fact that the runt trigger (2.4.8 ) example produces runts of different amplitudes

2)  The input coupling example (2.5) is also nice for showing how AC coupling allows you to see noise/ripple on a DC signal [see attached]

3)  Roll mode demo (2.6) was also helpful, since this can be hard to demo otherwise

4)  The noisy square wave to show the effect of averaging (2.7.1) is a nice demo.  I did however increase the number of average above the recommended 16 to get a more dramatic "cleaning up" of the signal [see attached]

5)  The peak detector (2.7.2) demo was also helpful, but here I did wish the manual explained why you see the double line

6)  And I always like a nice persistence demo (2.10)   The "intermittent" signal that shows up when persistence is enabled could also be used for some advanced triggering exercises and/or as a way to demonstrate the effect of acquisition rate (how long until you see the signal?)   I'll probably experiment with this more later.  [see attached]

My plan is to skip ahead and do all the serial decode examples next, since I did videos on most of these already   I'm intentionally saving FFT for last, since this is also a challenging thing to demonstrate.

Am I happy with it so far?  Yes, very

[2N3055]

Grrr now I have to wait for it to come while watching other kids play... 

[pdenisowski]

Grrr now I have to wait for it to come while watching other kids play... 

Sorry - I need to go through the entire demo guide as quickly as possible so I can get back to what I was working on before Martin72 derailed me (danke, Kumpel )

I have five new YouTube videos sitting in my post-production queue (including, of all things, "Getting Started with MXO Series Oscilloscopes - Triggering Fundamentals") and I need to get them over to our social media team sooner than later.

[Martin72]

4)  The noisy square wave to show the effect of averaging (2.7.1) is a nice demo.  I did however increase the number of average above the recommended 16 to get a more dramatic "cleaning up" of the signal

Checked this on my HD, with 64 averaging and took this as REF A.
Nice thing I didn´t noticed so far:
If you change the color of the REF trace, the hardware REF button will change it´s color too...Cool.

[JOSM]

I was looking for an oscilloscope demo board as well. I could not decide on one of the Rigol or Siglent options yet, mainly because of the price point of more than 200 €. And why yet another toy? So, I decided to bury the plan.
This thread brought the wish back to life. Thank You Martin 
Waiting for UPS...

[Martin72]

Thank You Martin   

 

You´re welcome...
But my thoughts were exactly like yours - Why, why, why...
I already got a (good) demoboard..But I couldn´t resist and now it´s here.
So far without regrets.
Men and (technical)toys...

[tv84]

This thread brought the wish back to life. Thank You Martin 
Waiting for UPS...

I will report this thread so that Dave can close ASAP... 

Even I surfed Batronix...     Stay away from the light...... 

[pdenisowski]

I will report this thread so that Dave can close ASAP... 

I wonder if Dave would be interested in doing a "demo boards" video - seems like a topic that would generate a lot of interest

[pdenisowski]

There might be one small typo:  in section 2.4.5 it says "Messen Sie das „SPI SCL“ Signal mit einem Tastkopf." (Measure the SPI SCL with a probe).

I think they meant I2C.  The SPI pin is labeled "SCK" and is idling low.  The I2C SCL signal is idling high looks exactly like the one in the manual.

Batronix has already updated the manual

I also reached out to them via email with a (different) question and got a very quick and helpful response, so bonus points for good customer support

[RAPo]

This forum is expensive, another one waiting for the postman.

[tv84]

Can you wildly guess what I just did? 

[Martin72]

  

[2N3055]

Can you wildly guess what I just did? 

Lololol!!!! 

[Martin72]

Today at work, the board with the lecroy HDO6034A together..
Playing with all the trigger stuff and it took me a while to realize that the persistence mode was active in some screenshots in the manual.
Could be mentioned in an update in the text...
Now I am curious about the decoder signals, the data packets are of different sizes and batronix has solved this very nicely:
The countries of Europe are named and their capitals in addition....

[KungFuJosh]

The Martin72 bug hit me this morning and I also ordered one. I hope Batronix gives him a commission for all these sales. 

[Martin72]

I can't imagine that happening.
The board:
I think I take it tomorrow back to work, because the decoder signals I want to check it with a lecroy first.
And make screenshots of the menu, as an inspiration for a future update of my siglent scope....

[KungFuJosh]

I can't imagine that happening.

Maybe they'll send you some stickers or something. 🤣🤣

[Martin72]

No thanks, they can keep them..

I have just read through the chapter with the decoder signals again.
This could be very interesting, at least for me, because of what to learn.

3.1.2 Protocol trigger
After you have set a decoder appropriately, you can also trigger on
Trigger data words and events.
Please carry out the following steps:
- Make settings according to 3.1
- Set Select 1 to "0" and Select 2 to "8".
- Set the trigger to "Serial" / "Decode" or "I²C
- Set the trigger to the ASCII character "B" or the hex code 42h.
- Start the running measurement (key Run)
- The triggering should now be set to the following cities or countries: "Berlin",
Bucharest", "Belgium", "Brussels" and "Budapest".
Try different decoder trigger conditions. You can also change the
conditions depending on the oscilloscope, and e.g. only trigger on a data word at a certain position.

Can't wait to try it out.

[Martin72]

Today I²C, SPI and UART on the lecroy HD6034A - We haven´t more decoder licenses for it..

Good: The board offers variable (switchable) bitrates, up to 3000kbit/s, depending on the decoding form.
There are three data contents avaible, the mentioned EU states and their capital cities, a "joke" and the word "Batronix" following by a counter value.
Try it out on SPI. I²C.
Wish for my siglent is having the bitrate displayed like the lecroy do.
Next decoder tests will be with SDS2104X+ and of course with my HD at home.

Martin

[Kean]

I guess it is only fair that we need to buy our own to find out the complete joke 

[Martin72]

I can show the rest tomorrow..

[pdenisowski]

Here's exercise 2.7.1 (cleaning up a noisy square wave using averaging) using a HAMEG HM407 scope and average count set to 16

[pdenisowski]

a "joke"

Well, I make my own serial decode jokes ...    Bidirectional UART message exchange.

Edit:  Two Arduinos (Arduini?) talking to each other.  Code attached.

[pdenisowski]

I tried out the low speed serial data today (SPI, I2C, UART) and they all look good.  Joke is actually kind of funny (and in English), but is the same for all bus types 

I used the mixed signal option of the MXO4 and a logic probe to connect to the demo board:  no issues at all.  It's nice having the ability to use both "normal" and logic probes.

I'm going to skip the automotive protocols for now and try the FFT:  I think / hope that will be the most interesting demo.

[Martin72]

Wow, such a table i want to have it on my HD ! 
For the whole joke I must take three pictures...
Visibility is poor on siglent scopes...
Plus I didn´t get a stable signal, it´s always jittering fast (must test it tomorrow on the lecroy, if I overlooked this).

[pdenisowski]

I also tried out the 8-bit parallel bus.  This is another thing that is hard to create for demonstrations.

Also worked fine

I had hoped to quickly work through all the demos in my idle moments (after all, I'm using the same scope for most of them ) but it's becoming clear that this board has a lot of functionality and that it would be best for me to spend some "quality time" with it rather than just check off the exercises one by one.

[Martin72]

Serial decodings:
Did you get a "jitterfree" stable signal on your scope ?

[tautech]

Serial decodings:
Did you get a "jitterfree" stable signal on your scope ?

One wonders about user settings from where the H Pos maker is.

[Martin72]

Has nothing to do with it, it does not matter where the position is.
It's always like a very fast pwm, I'll have to test that again tomorrow on the lecroy, maybe I had overlooked it on that one today.
When you have plenty of packets on the screen then it doesn´t matter.

[Martin72]

Trying the same with now all four channel instead of two (Miso, Mosi, Sclk, CS), still "running".
But one thing to know, regardless if 2 or 4 channel spi, the siglent decodes everything proper - If you look "fast enough", you can read the values and they´re correct.

[pdenisowski]

Serial decodings:
Did you get a "jitterfree" stable signal on your scope ?

Yes, very stable.  I can make a short video if you like.

[Martin72]

Would be nice !

[pdenisowski]

Would be nice !

Okay, I think I know what you mean by "jittter" on the signal.  The decode is stable, but there does appear to be some "jittter" in the waveforms.  I tried a rising edge trigger on the clock signal (as shown in the video) as well as a falling edge trigger on CS / SS and got the same behavior.  The MXO4 also supports a protocol "Start of Frame" trigger which, unsurprisingly, also showed the same behavior.



I think the next step would be to analyze the individual channels (CS and CLK) and plot a jitter histogram of each one.  I could also rebuild the circuit that I used for my "Understanding SPI" video and check if I see the same behavior.

I should note however that this "jitter" doesn't affect my ability to decode the SPI signal.

[Martin72]

This is way more stable than mine, I´ll make a short clip in the next days.
And: As I mentioned before, my siglent decode it correctly, you can see it best when in stop mode.

[tautech]

Serial decodings:
Did you get a "jitterfree" stable signal on your scope ?

That can only be a result of trigger settings, if using a serial trigger then it's triggering on duplicate bits in a packet or successive packets carrying the same bit.
If using an edge trigger in the screenshot below from STB-3 and SDS1204X HD Holdoff longer than packet length needs be applied to obtain rock solid triggering.
Here the packet header never changes however the payload does with each packet.

[Martin72]

Hi Rob,
I want to try it again here at work with a 2104X+ in the later afternoon, I also think it will be a trigger problem.

[Martin72]

Tried several trigger conditions today at work on a 2104X+, no chance..
No matter if 2 channel oder all 4, I can´t get the signal "calm".
Too dumb for I guess..
Then, back at home, I took the STB-3, connect it to the HD, setup...
...Rockstable triggering...What the heck...

[tautech]

Tried several trigger conditions today at work on a 2104X+, no chance..
No matter if 2 channel oder all 4, I can´t get the signal "calm".
Too dumb for I guess..
Then, back at home, I took the STB-3, connect it to the HD, setup...
...Rockstable triggering...What the heck...

You're missing something.

Default each and set them up again.

[Martin72]

Maybe a little missunderstanding:
I used the batronixboard at work with the same results I had before with the HD.
STB-3 was used today at home for the first time.

[Ulrich.G]

Here's exercise 2.7.1 (cleaning up a noisy square wave using averaging) using a HAMEG HM407 scope and average count set to 16

Nice too see this scope between all this high end equipment. I also own an old HM2008 Combiscope. I wonder how the demo board signals are looking on this... 

[JOSM]

Mine arrived two days ago. I have tried some of the different options already. And they work well. The manual is very good indeed. I do not regret my purchase.
I would like to use the board to show younger people how to use an oscilloscope. But it is not easy to find interested ones.

[pdenisowski]

Nice too see this scope between all this high end equipment. I also own an old HM2008 Combiscope. I wonder how the demo board signals are looking on this... 

I'm still amazed that the old Hameg scope does averaging:  I think the max average count is 256 (in steps of 2^N), but even at lower numbers of averages, it works pretty well.  That said, I think that it can only test about 10% of the Batronix demo board functions, which says a lot about how far we've come in the last few decades.

Oh, and it also does a really nice job in XY mode

[Martin72]

Today, better a few minutes ago, I check the bodeplot and XY demo.
For the bode plot the demo board got a lowpass and bandpass filter, I didn´t check if its an active one or passive.
Connecting is simply: Output of the generator (in this case the built-in of my HD scope) into the filterinput via bnc, then one probe to the testpoint "In", the other to "BP" or "LP", thats it..
I´ll follow the suggestion of the manual and adjusted the range between 200hz and 10Mhz.
Then checking XY - something I never used before 
Therefore I was a little bit surprised, how less you can do/adjust in this mode.
Also that I must change the connection of the scope, before it was Ch1 and Ch4, but that won´t work, it must be Ch1 and Ch2.
Known stuff for other, but new to me..
Nevertheless, the setup is simple and worked immediately.
Pics showing the demoboard´s BP at 5khz and 1khz (you can play along with the frequencies on board).
The displaying of the XY and the channels simultaneously like in the screenshot of the manual seems not possible on the siglent.
Martin

[pdenisowski]

Then checking XY - something I never used before 

Just yesterday my video on XY mode was published on the R&S YouTube channel



In my experience, most people aren't aware of all the different ways of using XY mode.

I'm also doing a video specifically on Lissajous patterns, but it won't come out for a couple of weeks.

[Martin72]

 

Being able to see the two channels involved at the same time with the XY display I feel is an advantage.
This would be a nice feature update for my siglent scope.

[KungFuJosh]

I got my board in yesterday, and I was thinking about trying it out next week. Then I remembered I only know a few words in German (some aren't even swears!). Maybe I'll google translate it with my phone lol.

[dpenev]

The user manual translated with DeepL
Hope Batronix has not an issue with this?
Remove zip extension

[dpenev]

The user manual translated with DeepL
Hope Batronix has not an issue with this?
Remove zip extension

[dpenev]

The user manual translated with DeepL
Hope Batronix has not an issue with this?
Remove zip extension

[Martin72]

Bode and XY on the siglent sds1104x-e...
For Bode I need my sdg2122X generator, works without problems via usb.
XY mode is exact like on the HD, simple..
BTW:

For the bode plot the demo board got a lowpass and bandpass filter, I didn´t check if its an active one or passive.

Now I know it, it´s passive...I´ve forgotten to power the board on while the Bode test runs..

(For siglent:
There´s no mode to run the plot once, right ? It´s in an endless-loop until you stop it.
And: It is faster than the HD, reacts faster and when you want to leave the mode, it stops almost immediately...)

[KungFuJosh]

(For siglent:
There´s no mode to run the plot once, right ? It´s in an endless-loop until you stop it.
And: It is faster than the HD, reacts faster and when you want to leave the mode, it stops almost immediately...)

I'm not sure which scope you're referring to, but on the SDS2504XP in bode setup, there is the option to do continuous or single.

[Martin72]

Hi,

Bode and XY on the siglent sds1104x-e...

[KungFuJosh]

Hi,

Bode and XY on the siglent sds1104x-e...

That one doesn't have the same option? It's been a while since I've had that scope.

[pdenisowski]

Can you provide some more info on those demo boards that are not for sale?

Here's the (very short) user guide for our most recent scope demo board.  It's actually has a lot of functionality, but isn't something we sell as a product.

[pdenisowski]

Being able to see the two channels involved at the same time with the XY display I feel is an advantage.
This would be a nice feature update for my siglent scope.

Being able to see X and Y together with XY is pretty useful for making sure your settings are correct.  I posted a short video of XY on our RTM and to the right of the XY display you can see the IQ values on the X (yellow) and Y (green) channels being updated in real time

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Csb7hKjJe7Z/

[Andre77]

I got my board in yesterday, and I was thinking about trying it out next week. Then I remembered I only know a few words in German (some aren't even swears!). Maybe I'll google translate it with my phone lol.

The translation is complete, you can download the English manual using the following link:
https://www.batronix.com/files/Batronix/MSO-Demoboard/Batronix-MSO-demo-board-web-EN.pdf

Furthermore, the Demo Board website is now accessible in English as well.
https://www.batronix.com/shop/demoboards/Batronix-MSO-Demo-Board.html

[RAPo]

Great! My board came in today.

[2N3055]

This is way more stable than mine, I´ll make a short clip in the next days.
And: As I mentioned before, my siglent decode it correctly, you can see it best when in stop mode.

Board came today...

I confirm SPI data coming of the board is jittery...
Also there is no deterministic timing between CS and clock and rest of data.

But it is not in violation of SPI protocol.
Decodes fine.
To get stable trigger I did nothing special but triggered on clock with holdoff or SPI protocol trigger that will align data decoded to clock.
That will give stable left edge. Rest of packages and signals will not align or overlap because they differ in position and timing...

If I set trigger for just one SPI packet data type (for instance MOSI 52 6F hex) i get same packet that does not have uniform timing.

SPI is definitely bit banged and interrupts are, well, interrupting...

[Martin72]

But it is not in violation of SPI protocol.
Decodes fine.

Yepp, that was also no problem here.
Today I´ve tried again on a lecroy(WR9054) and got it reasonably stable (timebase 200µs/div, 200kbit/s) with timeout appx 7.4µs("pause" between the clocks), last trigger.

[Andre77]

About the jittering between data words: The microcontroller on the demo board has different interrupt sources with different priority. The interrupt for the "function generator" DAC is treated with the highest priority. There, the 1-data word buffer must be refilled in time before the next data word is output.

The interface interrupts have a lower priority level than the DAC. Different time spans can lie between two data words. This results in the jittering that looks choppy but also more realistic like a real microcontroller application. This type of jitter between data words has no influence on correct data transmission/decoding.

[pdenisowski]

I have five new YouTube videos sitting in my post-production queue (including, of all things, "Getting Started with MXO Series Oscilloscopes - Triggering Fundamentals")

The triggering video is now live.  I created a lot of the screenshots using an ARB, but a demo board would definitely have been faster, easier, and cheaper for several of the triggering examples.

[Martin72]

Arrived today, the printed manuals...

[JOSM]

Arrived today, the printed manuals...

How to get a hold on a copy of the printed manual? I cannot find an option to order one on the web site.

[Update 1 July 2023]
The printed manual arrived yesterday. 
I did not receive an e-mail asking for the need of one prior to that.

[Martin72]

Hi,
If you had previously purchased a board, you get it forwarded, AFAIK.

[techneut]

good morning,
after I ordered the demo board I got an email asking if I wanted to recieve a printed copy.
I answerd with yes, please and now it is on its way, hopefully will be dilivered today.

Regards, Ronald

[KungFuJosh]

good morning,
after I ordered the demo board I got an email asking if I wanted to recieve a printed copy.
I answerd with yes, please and now it is on its way, hopefully will be dilivered today.

Regards, Ronald

Same here. Mine is also out for delivery today.

Edit: Got it. Smaller than I expected, which is nice.

[pdenisowski]

after I ordered the demo board I got an email asking if I wanted to recieve a printed copy.

Same thing here - very nice follow-up from Batronix

[Martin72]

I'll be working through the rest of the tutorial soon, probably on my summer vacation in two weeks.
Maybe I will also borrow a Rigol DS1054Z from work, then I would have three different scopes at home to try out.
The pictures or possibly short clips I will then upload to google drive and then post the link.
Then I will probably write a short conclusion and then...
..Yes what do you do with it then.
I have already found ways to not let it gather dust, for example my Bode Plot Speed Test thread.
Also I think about taking the board with me to work and make it available to new young colleagues, so they can familiarize themselves with our oscilloscopes.
I think it was already a worthwhile investment.
You (batronix) should perhaps think again about not being able to offer the board permanently for under 200.
I find the board super, but whether I would have struck just as fast and without thinking, it would cost 240€...

[KungFuJosh]

Filtered/non-filtered output is interesting

Yup. I finally started messing with this now that I have the printed manual. I was plugged into the wrong BNC, and the non-filtered output made that pretty clear. Oops.

[KungFuJosh]

This has been pretty awesome so far. I've learned some useful stuff (including things the manual didn't suggest, like cheating and hitting the set to 50% option in the trigger). I also found the invert background option by mistake. 

[Andre77]

You (batronix) should perhaps think again about not being able to offer the board permanently for under 200.
I find the board super, but whether I would have struck just as fast and without thinking, it would cost 240€...

You are probably right about that too. We will reconsider the planned price after the end of the introductory offer. The sales figures are higher than expected and that should lead to savings for the next production batch. Maybe we can make the introductory price the permanent normal price soon after the end of the introductory offer.

Our friends at BatterFly have now also included the demo board in their distribution. For all those from Italy and around, it is now also available here:
https://www.batterfly.com/shop/it/batronix-bxd001

[KungFuJosh]

Setting up the trigger for the letter B was a little tricky as the trigger setup wasn't straight forward. But I guess I know how to do it now. 🤷

[Martin72]

You are further along than me, I had tried it and put it aside for later...

[KungFuJosh]

You are further along than me, I had tried it and put it aside for later...

I'm interested in trying the SPL2016 clone I got from eBay for $40. I don't have a 3D printer, and I like how they did it. I'm assuming another member of this site made it. 😉

[KungFuJosh]

I also found some leftover German in the English manuals. I haven't been paying a lot of attention, but this one stood out.

[KungFuJosh]

Spoiler alert...

To get the 3.2 SPI interface test to work, I had to set the SS/CS channel CLK Timeout.

[KungFuJosh]

I'm happy to report that the SPL2016 clone works.

[pdenisowski]

I also found some leftover German in the English manuals. I haven't been paying a lot of attention, but this one stood out.

(laughs)  That's happened to me before - English spell check doesn't catch "bis" because it's also (technically) an English word. 

That said, I don't think I've ever heard or seen anyone actually use "bis" in spoken or written English.  I only (used to) ever see it in the Latin quote "bis dat qui cito dat"

You might want to let Batronix know:  they were extremely responsive about fixing a typo I found in the original German manual.

[KungFuJosh]

You might want to let Batronix know:  they were extremely responsive about fixing a typo I found in the original German manual.

@Andre77 from Batronix monitors this thread, so when he checks he'll see. 😉

[Andre77]

To get the 3.2 SPI interface test to work, I had to set the SS/CS channel CLK Timeout.

Your screenshot looks like you have an error on channel 1 (Chip Select). The level should not drift away like that. Have you switched on the AC coupling on this channel or do you have a contact problem?

If the chip signal is detected correctly, it also works without a CLK timeout. The CS type "CLK timeout" can be used if the CS signal is not measured (e.g. because you have a 2-channel oscilloscope or do not want to use more than 2 channels for the SPI measurement).

[Andre77]

I also found some leftover German in the English manuals. I haven't been paying a lot of attention, but this one stood out.

Thank you for the info! The error is now fixed.

[KungFuJosh]

To get the 3.2 SPI interface test to work, I had to set the SS/CS channel CLK Timeout.

Your screenshot looks like you have an error on channel 1 (Chip Select). The level should not drift away like that. Have you switched on the AC coupling on this channel or do you have a contact problem?

If the chip signal is detected correctly, it also works without a CLK timeout. The CS type "CLK timeout" can be used if the CS signal is not measured (e.g. because you have a 2-channel oscilloscope or do not want to use more than 2 channels for the SPI measurement).

Oops! Looks like I missed a step. In the bottom left corner it says I had CH1 set with DC coupling. I'll go back and try that again before I move on to the RF stuff.

Thanks,
Josh

Edit: Was I supposed to have CH1 on AC also on reply 136?

[Gixy]

Ordered mine this morning at breakfast. TEA is watching me...

[KungFuJosh]

Ordered mine this morning at breakfast. TEA is watching me...

Like the rest of us, it's probably @Martin72 's fault! 🤣

[KungFuJosh]

Your screenshot looks like you have an error on channel 1 (Chip Select). The level should not drift away like that. Have you switched on the AC coupling on this channel or do you have a contact problem?

If the chip signal is detected correctly, it also works without a CLK timeout. The CS type "CLK timeout" can be used if the CS signal is not measured (e.g. because you have a 2-channel oscilloscope or do not want to use more than 2 channels for the SPI measurement).

Much better now. It works with "active low" and clk timeout.

[KungFuJosh]

Well, I guess I'm done. I don't have a tee adapter, and I'm not gonna get one right now just for the last test.

That was very informative, and I enjoyed running through all the tests. Hopefully, I'll be able to break it out again eventually and be able to trigger most of it without any of the hints. 😬

I could only find 1 ground spring quickly, so I only used 1. 🤷

[KungFuJosh]

I have a dumb question.

The traces in the photos in the manual are a lot prettier than the ones in the images I posted. Is that mostly because they're using a fancier scope, fancier probes, or both?

[tautech]

I have a dumb question.

The traces in the photos in the manual are a lot prettier than the ones in the images I posted. Is that mostly because they're using a fancier scope, fancier probes, or both?

Turn Show Menu to ON. 

[KungFuJosh]

Turn Show Menu to ON. 

While I assume that has nothing to do with what I actually asked, I also don't see that as an option anywhere in my current firmware. 😉

Edit: I see what you meant (Include Menu) in the save/recall menu. But no, that has nothing to do with what I was asking.

I'm referring to how clean their lines are compared to mine in the attached example.

[pdenisowski]

The traces in the photos in the manual are a lot prettier than the ones in the images I posted. Is that mostly because they're using a fancier scope, fancier probes, or both?

Almost all of the screenshot examples are from the R&S MXO4, and it's a very, very nice scope  

The screenshots I make with my MXO4 are more or less identical to the Batronix manual.  And I've been using junk probes for my experiments.

One difference may be that the Batronix examples have sample rate at 5 Gsa/s and your scope seems to show 2 Gsa/s.

[KungFuJosh]

Almost all of the screenshot examples are from the R&S MXO4, and it's a very, very nice scope  

The screenshots I make with my MXO4 are more or less identical to the Batronix manual.  And I've been using junk probes for my experiments.

One difference may be that the Batronix examples have sample rate at 5 Gsa/s and your scope seems to show 2 Gsa/s.

Yeah, that's a little out of my budget. 🤣

I thought the humps might be related to signal interference, and maybe they were using active probes or something.

I have nice Probe Master probes, but my scope does max out at 2 Gsa/s.

[Performa01]

I'm referring to how clean their lines are compared to mine in the attached example.

The true reason for this is the vast difference in bandwidth. Close to 600 MHz bandwidth (SDS2504X Plus) show a lot more detail - hence "uglier" traces - than a 200 MHz scope. Whether the imperfections of the signal are interferences from the environment, bad probing or in the signal source itself is unknown at this point, but the fact that higher bandwidth reveals more (even unwanted) details remains.

Apart from that, a scope with 12 bit ADC (MXO4) will generally show nicer traces, as every user of the SDS2000X HD can attest

[KungFuJosh]

Bit depth and bandwidth for the win!

I set the experiment back up, changed the bit depth to 10bit, which dropped the bandwidth to 100M. I also modified my acquisition to slow:

Edit: I fiddled with the display settings more, and put the menu back on to make Rob happy. 😉

For comparison...

Here's full bandwidth at 8bits:


200M limit at 8bits:


100M limit at 10bits:

[Martin72]

Apart from that, a scope with 12 bit ADC (MXO4) will generally show nicer traces, as every user of the SDS2000X HD can attest

Yepp...

[Martin72]

The HF termination test (next step):

[KungFuJosh]

The HF termination test (next step):

Did your probe move between tests? I'm assuming mine lined up cleaner because I had the probe jammed in there. 😉

[Martin72]

I held the probe during testing/saving.

[KungFuJosh]

I left the probe in a fixed position on its own where I didn't have to touch it. The ground spring gave it enough tension to stay still.

[Martin72]

I don´t think it has something to do with it.
But will repeat the test with fixed probe and with another probe from lecroy.
Your amplitude seems higher when comparing the pics.

[KungFuJosh]

Your amplitude seems higher when comparing the pics.

From page 50 of the manual:
"Now remove the jumper connected to the lower “50”. This will remove the
termination and you should see a voltage rise to approx. 4.8 V about 8 ns after the
signal edge (from 0 V to approx. 2.4 V) (screenshot: red signal curve)."

I think my pic is pretty spot on, no?

Edit: when you do your test again, please move the ref table so we can see the axis numbers.

[markus_jlrb]

Dears,

get my demo board yesterday and made some first test.
I' wondering that all the testing stuff signals could be
provided by only one ic named ATSAMD20 from Microchip.
I was expecting a FPGA device on the board.



Btw have someone managed to run the I2C examp.
and see the country and capital names when selector#1
is set to 0? I'm using a SDS1104X-E and were able to
run the UART and SPI examp. but not the one mentioned
above.

Markus

[Martin72]

Hi,

Besides the 2504HD, I still have a 1104 lying around...

Check it today, no problems with the I²C signal...

Note:
Clock and data thresholds must both be set, approximately at 1.6V.
Can be found in the sub-item "Signals" in the decoder menu after selecting the decoder type.
I can post more pictures later.

[markus_jlrb]

Thanks Martin,

you point me to the right direction.


Now I was able to decode the I2C data.


Today the SPL1016 Probes arrive too, so I could now
do some logic signal examples with the new Batronix
training board.




Markus

[tautech]

Thanks Martin,

you point me to the right direction.


Now I was able to decode the I2C data.


Today the SPL1016 Probes arrive too, so I could now
do some logic signal examples with the new Batronix
training board.

Markus

Some tips if I may:
Idle High signal should have a falling edge trigger.
Saving screenshots to USB can be done with the blue Print button shortcut and leave the active scope menu visible and not have the Save/Recall menu instead.

[markus_jlrb]

One problem appear as I have powered the demo board from the internal DSO USB connector,
so that at the same time I was not able to plug in the USB stick to save the screen shot.

I was not keen to power the demo board from a external psu as in this case the ground
layer is connected to the DSO ground.

Perhaps a USB hub will be the proper solution for this problem.

Markus

[tautech]

One problem appear as I have powered the demo board from the internal DSO USB connector,
so that at the same time I was not able to plug in the USB stick to save the screen shot.

I was not keen to power the demo board from a external psu as in this case the ground
layer is connected to the DSO ground.

Perhaps a USB hub will be the proper solution for this problem.

Markus

You do have another USB A socket on the rear......maybe not if you have SDS1202X-E.
Yes I have used a USB hub for these needs.

[Martin72]

Yepp, a few hours ago I had the same "problem"...
Then "wait a minute, is there another one on the back...ahh..." 
(You can see it on the picture, ok...not so clear)
This little puppy, I like it !

[markus_jlrb]

Good hint tautech, indeed I have missed this.

Have only recognized the USB-B plug on the rear side and overseen the USB-A.

Demo board is now connected to the read side.

Thanks again.


Markus

[Martin72]

The "HF" tests, now with siglent sds1104X-E..

[kerouanton]

In my experience, most people aren't aware of all the different ways of using XY mode.

Indeed, I didn't think about using X-Y mode to see IQ patterns. And happy to see that my basic SDS1204X-E does the job well on 256QAM. This makes nice screenshots, quite artistic. Thank you for your video and taking the time to explain.

[pdenisowski]

Indeed, I didn't think about using X-Y mode to see IQ patterns. And happy to see that my basic SDS1204X-E does the job well on 256QAM. This makes nice screenshots, quite artistic. Thank you for your video and taking the time to explain.

My pleasure  

I like to joke that XY mode on oscilloscopes is like zero span on spectrum analyzers: a standard feature with lots of useful applications, but something that even experienced users are often unfamiliar with.

(and I also did a video on zero span, by the way )

[Martin72]

I don´t think it has something to do with it.
But will repeat the test with fixed probe and with another probe from lecroy.
Your amplitude seems higher when comparing the pics.

Done this a few minutes ago, with a lecroy pp023 probe.

[KungFuJosh]

It looks cleaner now, and lined up better.

[Martin72]

Testing my new SPL2016 probes with the demoboard, it works..
(Function CAN decoding, 20kbit/s)

[explozz]

Hello everyone,

The 20% off MSO demo card special ends in a few days, so I ordered one to take advantage of the special.

And like everyone else, I too am going to have fun with this new toy.

Thanks to Martin72 for this expensive discovery (Laughs). 

[KungFuJosh]

Thanks to Martin72 for this expensive discovery (Laughs). 

He's really good at that. 🤣

[tooki]

We have several versions but we don't sell them.

Bad boy!  Martin72 surely would buy one for his collection.   

And with the batronix board, my "collection" will grow up to two.
That´s enough.

Once you start collecting R&S demo boards, there's no stopping

FWIW, that’s a Texas Instruments reference design, seemingly completely unmodified. (The PMP numbers at bottom left are TI reference design IDs.) This board is PMP30595: https://www.ti.com/tool/PMP30595

[KungFuJosh]

FWIW, that’s a Texas Instruments reference design, seemingly completely unmodified. (The PMP numbers at bottom left are TI reference design IDs.) This board is PMP30595: https://www.ti.com/tool/PMP30595

Thanks. Darn it, looks like we have another project to build, eh @Martin72 😉

[Martin72]

Well...

A demo board for power electronic would indeed be something else that could be tackled.
Be it for understanding purposes about switching power transmission or to test the now more and more popular power analysis functions of scopes.

[pdenisowski]

FWIW, that’s a Texas Instruments reference design, seemingly completely unmodified. (The PMP numbers at bottom left are TI reference design IDs.) This board is PMP30595: https://www.ti.com/tool/PMP30595

Yep. It’s the R&S stenciling that makes it rare

[pdenisowski]

A demo board for power electronic would indeed be something else that could be tackled.
Be it for understanding purposes about switching power transmission or to test the now more and more popular power analysis functions of scopes.

Agree completely.  There are ways to demo / experiment without a PE demo board, but it’s not nearly as easy or convenient.

[tooki]

FWIW, that’s a Texas Instruments reference design, seemingly completely unmodified. (The PMP numbers at bottom left are TI reference design IDs.) This board is PMP30595: https://www.ti.com/tool/PMP30595

Thanks. Darn it, looks like we have another project to build, eh @Martin72 😉

TI’s library of reference designs is a smorgasbord of interesting things to build. Same for Analog Devices.

[KungFuJosh]

TI’s library of reference designs is a smorgasbord of interesting things to build. Same for Analog Devices.

I know, it takes restraint to avoid looking through there and picking out more projects I don't need to do. 🤣

[explozz]

Hi,

I received my MSO demo board today, a new version 1.5.

What changes at first glance is that the Parallel Bus and PWM sections have moved and there are now two ground planes.

It also seems to me that there's a slight change in the location of the components near the BNC socket (DAC/BUF).

In addition, there's a new version of the manual dated October 2, 2023. I can't wait to try out my MSO demo card.

 

[Andre77]

Hello!

A little "all-clear" information for all those who already have the demo board version 1.4:

• In version 1.5, a little more space was added between the BNC sockets for a more comfortable connection of the probes (Bode/FRT demofilter) and BNC cables.
• The large ground plane was moved between the digital signals. In some constellations, the probe crocodile clip leads could otherwise be a bit tight before.
• We corrected two labels, "TP" (abbreviation for "Tiefpass", from German) became "LP" (Low pass) and "HF" became "RF".

   
The signals on the board are identical and so the measurements remain so. It therefore remains usable as a "reference".

Best Regards,
Andre

[blurpy]

I like this demo board, and I'm learning a lot about features I haven't explored much.

But when I got to step 3.5, to test the MSO parallel bus interface with my Siglent SDS2000X+, the scope seems to be lacking in capabilities.
If I'm understanding it correctly, the Siglent "decodes" parallel signals in the digital menu instead of the decode menu where it can decode serial signals.

And there is no option to see the decoded ASCII value:



Converting the hex shown here, "42 61 74 72 6f 6e 69 78", to ASCII using any online converter produces the text "Batronix".
So it seems like an incredibly simple operation to do. Am I missing something perhaps?

[Martin72]

Hi,

I'll have to have a look at how I set it on my 2k+ HD:



And I have an SDS2104X+ here right now, I could test it directly, I'll get back to you later.
EDIT: Ah, now I see...

[Martin72]

Just test it on the SDS2104X+ from work (therefore the inverted pics), here we go:

1. According to the demo manual page 45 for CAN decoding set switch 1 to "0" and switch 2 to "A".
2. Activate "Digital" on your scope, then activate "Decode"
3. Set decode signal to CAN, source CAN_H at D07.
4. Set Baudrate to 20kbit/s

It´s just an example, you could also try LIN or Manchester, important to know is that if you want to decode something from the parallel bus, digital must be active otherwise you couldn´t select the digital channels in the decoder menu as a source.
And only the decoder section allows to display the values in ASCII.
Edit: Only serial decoder avaible

[blurpy]

Just test it on the SDS2104X+ from work (therefore the inverted pics), here we go:

1. According to the demo manual page 45 for CAN decoding set switch 1 to "0" and switch 2 to "A".
2. Activate "Digital" on your scope, then activate "Decode"
3. Set decode signal to CAN, source CAN_H at D07.
4. Set Baudrate to 20kbit/s

It´s just an example, you could also try LIN or Manchester, important to know is that if you want to decode something from the parallel bus, digital must be active otherwise you couldn´t select the digital channels in the decoder menu as a source.
And only the decoder section allows to display the values in ASCII.

Thanks for looking into this Martin72. Seems like you are setting up serial decoding using one digital line from the parallel bus (section 3.6), and not parallel decoding using 7 digital lines from the parallel bus (section 3.5). What if you try to setup the scope for section 3.5, and see if you have more luck getting the ASCII value somehow?

[Martin72]

That's right,
I overlooked that, a good hint.
I couldn't find ASCII here either, that would be something for the wish list.

[blurpy]

That's right,
I overlooked that, a good hint.
I couldn't find ASCII here either, that would be something for the wish list.

Thanks, I can make a post on the wish list thread.

Is it the same on the 2k+ HD?

[Martin72]

Hi,
Just posted it, in both threads because my HD doesn't have it either.

[audiotubes]

Testing my new SPL2016 probes with the demoboard, it works..
(Function CAN decoding, 20kbit/s)

Is the SPL2016 at 279 euros a good value since I have the SDS2504X already (heh, 2104X + hack thanks to you guys)

Is there a better logic analyzer I could get for the same price range?

My demands are not very high now, probably just RS-232, I2C, and I2S but I would not like to have to buy something else if I run into a limitation later.

[tautech]

Testing my new SPL2016 probes with the demoboard, it works..
(Function CAN decoding, 20kbit/s)

Is the SPL2016 at 279 euros a good value since I have the SDS2504X already (heh, 2104X + hack thanks to you guys)

OEM is best and a good unit also used by several other brands and rebranded with their logo.

Is there a better logic analyzer I could get for the same price range?

DIY if you can be bothered or on a limited budget:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/

[audiotubes]

Thank you.

Damnit, I was looking at the price when bought with the scope (which I already have). So it's 379, not 279. I don't think I will spend that much

[tautech]

Thank you.

Damnit, I was looking at the price when bought with the scope (which I already have). So it's 379, not 279. I don't think I will spend that much

Please advise purchase date as you may be eligible for the promotional discount on the option bundle SDS2XP-BND
See here:
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-74.html

Contact your supplier if you feel they should have offered you this bundle at time of purchase.

[Martin72]

Thank you.

Damnit, I was looking at the price when bought with the scope (which I already have). So it's 379, not 279. I don't think I will spend that much

There's no reason why it's so damn expensive, but...
....The build quality is excellent.

[tautech]

Thank you.

Damnit, I was looking at the price when bought with the scope (which I already have). So it's 379, not 279. I don't think I will spend that much

There's no reason why it's so damn expensive, but...
....The build quality is excellent.

And also fits the SDS3000X HD you lust for. 

[H.O]

My demands are not very high now, probably just RS-232, I2C, and I2S but I would not like to have to buy something else if I run into a limitation later.

Unless you need to sample >2 analog channels at the same time as you capture/decode those protocols (or you need to capture/decode more than one ot two bus(es) at the same time) you don't really need the digital pod.

[audiotubes]

Thank you.

Damnit, I was looking at the price when bought with the scope (which I already have). So it's 379, not 279. I don't think I will spend that much

Please advise purchase date as you may be eligible for the promotional discount on the option bundle SDS2XP-BND
See here:
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-74.html

Contact your supplier if you feel they should have offered you this bundle at time of purchase.

Thank you!

June 30, 2021. I always thought I waited long enough to buy things. But now I see I bought too soon

[tautech]

Thank you.

Damnit, I was looking at the price when bought with the scope (which I already have). So it's 379, not 279. I don't think I will spend that much

Please advise purchase date as you may be eligible for the promotional discount on the option bundle SDS2XP-BND
See here:
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-74.html

Contact your supplier if you feel they should have offered you this bundle at time of purchase.

Thank you!

June 30, 2021. I always thought I waited long enough to buy things. But now I see I bought too soon

Or too late to miss an earlier promotion. 
A while back there was a free BW upgrade plus option bundle for a great price also.
Further back SDS2104X Plus was on special for $999 but that was short-lived.

Looks like a DIY LA probe is now your best cheap option so go study that thread I linked. 

[audiotubes]

Thank you.

Damnit, I was looking at the price when bought with the scope (which I already have). So it's 379, not 279. I don't think I will spend that much

Please advise purchase date as you may be eligible for the promotional discount on the option bundle SDS2XP-BND
See here:
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-74.html

Contact your supplier if you feel they should have offered you this bundle at time of purchase.

Thank you!

June 30, 2021. I always thought I waited long enough to buy things. But now I see I bought too soon

Or too late to miss an earlier promotion. 
A while back there was a free BW upgrade plus option bundle for a great price also.
Further back SDS2104X Plus was on special for $999 but that was short-lived.

Looks like a DIY LA probe is now your best cheap option so go study that thread I linked. 

I paid a fair price for the scope, not much more than what you mentioned. I have all the licenses on my SDS2504X

It's too hard to get parts here, and I don't necessarily want a logic analyzer for the scope unless I can get it at a reasonable price.

Otherwise, it seems like a USB logic analyzer is more for the money. However, many choices in that space and also hard for us to buy from outside the EU now.

[mwb1100]

As H.O mentioned, you don't need the LA probes to decode UART, I2C, or I2S.  (or SPI for that matter)

[audiotubes]

As H.O mentioned, you don't need the LA probes to decode UART, I2C, or I2S.  (or SPI for that matter)

You are right, but I did not understand what he meant.

[Martin72]

Somehow, none of this has too much to do with the demo board.

[audiotubes]

You are right, it was just a demo

Sorry for the interrupt

[Martin72]

No problem, I just wanted to mention it.

[egonotto]

Hallo,

Pico Technology also has a Mixed Signal Oscilloscope Training and Demo Board that looks like the Batronix board to me. But the manual uses PicoScope 7 for the examples.

Best regards
egonotto

[KungFuJosh]

lol, yeah, that's the same board. I bet they had Batronix change the secret message to picoscope instead. 🤣

[tautech]

lol, yeah, that's the same board. I bet they had Batronix change the secret message to picoscope instead. 🤣

Or it came from another source entirely, configured to individual specs and rebranded accordingly.

Should be some clues to origin in its code.

[KungFuJosh]

Or it came from another source entirely, configured to individual specs and rebranded accordingly.

Should be some clues to origin in its code.

Fair point. Anybody wanna start placing bets?

[tautech]

Or it came from another source entirely, configured to individual specs and rebranded accordingly.

Should be some clues to origin in its code.

Fair point. Anybody wanna start placing bets?

Martin has a close relationship with Batronix.....he should ask some questions.....

[Martin72]

https://www.picotech.com/accessories/mixed-signal-oscilloscope-training-and-demo-board

You can´t deny the relationship...

Martin has a close relationship with Batronix...

Maybe one of Batonix will drop by here...

[Andre77]

As you have already identified through images and description: We've been distributing PicoScopes for six months now and our partnership has recently expanded in the opposite direction. It's awesome to see that we're all on the same page when it comes to valuing quality tools. 

Moreover, Pico Technology has created a customized manual specifically designed for use with the PicoScopes.

[Martin72]

Ah, that was fast...
So you "make" this board for pico ?

[Andre77]

We didn't actually want to publish this, but since the photos are clear and you've already recognised it anyway: Yes. 

[Andre77]

We are happy to be able to contribute to the really smart Picoscope team and their products.   

[axantas]

This is the kind of statement that makes Batronix and the smart people there even more trustworthy and likeable. 

[Martin72]

Yes, they don't just sell measuring equipment, they also know what they are offering...

I always find it very pleasant when you talk to people who know exactly what you are talking about and can react accordingly.
What I find a pity about the demo board is that they couldn't keep the price below €200 in the long term.
In the beginning, at least a lot of people "here" ordered the board, which I thought was great, because we all have the same source here, so it's easier to understand the problems/measurement situations of other users.
A board as a reference, so to speak.
So please make the board more affordable again.

[Andre77]

What I find a pity about the demo board is that they couldn't keep the price below €200 in the long term.
In the beginning, at least a lot of people "here" ordered the board, which I thought was great, because we all have the same source here, so it's easier to understand the problems/measurement situations of other users.
A board as a reference, so to speak.
So please make the board more affordable again.

You're probably right. As this is a really great forum (and there are so many great people here) we have set up a coupon code.

With the coupon code "EEVblog" you can get the demo board in the Batronix online shop for the introductory price of 159 Euro + shipping + VAT again. The shipping costs + VAT are calculated by the online shop depending on the country of delivery.

We could also have called the coupon code "ThanksToMartin72", but that would certainly have confused some people. 

[Martin72]

Hi
Andre77,
Excellent! 

Martin

[KungFuJosh]

We could also have called the coupon code "ThanksToMartin72", but that would certainly have confused some people. 

Or offer both options, since he probably sold more of those boards than anybody else. 🤣

[Martin72]

But when I look in my wallet, I don't see any of that.

[KungFuJosh]

But when I look in my wallet, I don't see any of that.

[ralphrmartin]

As this is a really great forum (and there are so many great people here) we have set up a coupon code.

With the coupon code "EEVblog" you can get the demo board in the Batronix online shop for the introductory price of 159 Euro + shipping + VAT again. The shipping costs + VAT are calculated by the online shop depending on the country of delivery.

We could also have called the coupon code "ThanksToMartin72", but that would certainly have confused some people. 

Can we get a Picoscope version for that price?   

[axantas]

What I find a pity about the demo board is that they couldn't keep the price below €200 in the long term.
In the beginning, at least a lot of people "here" ordered the board, which I thought was great, because we all have the same source here, so it's easier to understand the problems/measurement situations of other users.
A board as a reference, so to speak.
So please make the board more affordable again.

You're probably right. As this is a really great forum (and there are so many great people here) we have set up a coupon code.

With the coupon code "EEVblog" you can get the demo board in the Batronix online shop for the introductory price of 159 Euro + shipping + VAT again. The shipping costs + VAT are calculated by the online shop depending on the country of delivery.

We could also have called the coupon code "ThanksToMartin72", but that would certainly have confused some people. 

I am already experimenting with this board, but Batronix just earned 10 additional stars in my next Google review for this presence at your customers - there is a one for a DHO914 pending...

[Grandchuck]

I received one and have begun using it.  I make cheat sheet to help with the switches.  And, a note to young players, use J4 and not J5 for viewing the 50kHz and 100kHz Hz clock signals (that mistake cost me some time).

[Grandchuck]

Working through the demo board manual ... thought I'd share these:

Interesting demo for using Channels 1 and 3, rather than 1 and 2, for better performance. 

[Martin72]

Working through the demo board manual

Which point is that?

[axantas]

This appears to be a 2000X HD. I suppose, we know, why this is that way. Dave shows it in his teardown video. It is due to the routing of the PCB. CH1/2 and 3/4 share one ADC:

[gf]

Working through the demo board manual ... thought I'd share these:
Interesting demo for using Channels 1 and 3, rather than 1 and 2, for better performance.

Looks like "CH1&Ch2" suffers from aliasing (signal not sufficiently bandwidth limited for 1GSa/s).

[Martin72]

Yep, he should try to measure it again with 200Mhz bandwith limit(if avaible).

[Grandchuck]

The scope used is the SDS2204X HD which has a 200 MHz bandwidth.  As shown in Dave's video, Ch1 and Ch2 share one ADC and I am thinking this explains the result.
 Martin, I am on page 48 ... it has been educational.  Thanks for alerting the forum about this demo board.

[Grandchuck]

Here is the delay from TP1 to TP6 on the demo board.

[Martin72]

Nice,

I hadn't even tried it yet.

[Performa01]

Here is the delay from TP1 to TP6 on the demo board.

Cursors are bit outdated nowadays, especially in an analytical DSO. What about using the automatic FRFR measurement instead?

[Grandchuck]

Done!  Still learning.  This is going to take a while. 

[Martin72]

Martin, I am on page 48

For others, this is the "Hf Test Track" section.
Mainly responsible are two fast risetime logic gate ICs (tr<450ps), one IC is directly connected to the RF out BNC socket, so that you have a quite fast pulse at the start.
The signal also looks pretty clean.

[mwb1100]

Is that SDS1104X-E stock (100Mhz) or hacked to 200MHz?

[Martin72]

Hi,

100Mhz "untouched", loaned from work until new scope arrives.

[tautech]

Hi,

100Mhz "untouched", loaned from work until new scope arrives.

2k HD gone to someone else already ?

[Martin72]

Yep, two weeks ago.

[Grandchuck]

The end of the Batronix manual ... reflections in coax.  The coax length is 41 inches.  Three conditions are shown.

I will be going back and changing/trying more experiments.  Conclusion: the board is well engineered and executed.  The manual is as good as can be expected since different instruments will have to be set up in their own fashion.

Martin would like a lower price and who would argue?  However, given the sales volume it might be already priced as low as practical?

[Martin72]

Mainly responsible are two fast risetime logic gate ICs (tr<450ps), one IC is directly connected to the RF out BNC socket, so that you have a quite fast pulse at the start.

I took the demo board to work today and connected our Lecroy WR9054 (500Mhz) to the Hf-Out (J7).
Indeed, this is a very fast signal, demo board owners have a "small Bodnar pulser" at the start, even if "only" in the upper ps range.

Martin

[2N3055]

It is faster than that...

Estimate cca. 270-280ps ...

Measuring 480ps on scope with 400ps risetime. 500ps on scope with with 420ps risetime and 521ps on one with 440ps risetime..

Used good quality 200mm cable.

[Martin72]

Nice...

First I was a little bit irritated - Another lecroy ? 
Second look, thank god a siglent..
With 4GSa/s...

[2N3055]

Nice...

First I was a little bit irritated - Another lecroy ? 
Second look, thank god a siglent..
With 4GSa/s...

I thought you might like it...

[tautech]

Nice...

First I was a little bit irritated - Another lecroy ? 
Second look, thank god a siglent..
With 4GSa/s...

I thought you might like it...

One will be in Martin's camp very soon. 
Shame his SDS2000X HD had to make way for it.

[Martin72]

Shame his SDS2000X HD had to make way for it.

To be honest, it wouldn't have been necessary.
At first glance, but you can imagine why I did it after all in view of the upcoming 3000 models and their prices.

[tautech]

Shame his SDS2000X HD had to make way for it.

To be honest, it wouldn't have been necessary.
At first glance, but you can imagine why I did it after all in view of the upcoming 3000 models and their prices.

Still that would be a bit of coin tied up in 2 good scopes. 
3034X HD is little more than 5034X but 12bit and the same size 10"nice 12" display.
Excellent upgrade IMO. 

Correction made.

[rpro]

For others, this is the "Hf Test Track" section.
Mainly responsible are two fast risetime logic gate ICs (tr<450ps), one IC is directly connected to the RF out BNC socket, so that you have a quite fast pulse at the start.
The signal also looks pretty clean.

Here is how it looks with the DHO804(924) and MSO5000. More "ringing" on MSO than DHO, though no undershoot before rise edge on both (similar to your Lecroy WR9054 pic).

[Grandchuck]

More Batronix board learning via mostly trial and error.  This is with SW1 set to C which selects a 10 kHz sine with peaks after X periods.  Using channel 1 for pulse triggering is straightforward.  Using channel 2 is more finicky. 

This makes me wonder what folks do when they have no idea what kind of a glitch or anomaly they are looking for.  Do they use single sweep repeatedly until they spot something and then zoom/expand to investigate and go from there to set up an appropriate trigger?

[ebastler]

This makes me wonder what folks do when they have no idea what kind of a glitch or anomaly they are looking for.  Do they use single sweep repeatedly until they spot something and then zoom/expand to investigate and go from there to set up an appropriate trigger?

I would let the scope acquire in RUN mode, triggering on the normally recurring signal, and watch out for weak traces which are out of the ordinary. Switching on color grading may help to make those weak (i.e. rare) traces more prominent. 

[2N3055]

More Batronix board learning via mostly trial and error.  This is with SW1 set to C which selects a 10 kHz sine with peaks after X periods.  Using channel 1 for pulse triggering is straightforward.  Using channel 2 is more finicky. 

This makes me wonder what folks do when they have no idea what kind of a glitch or anomaly they are looking for.  Do they use single sweep repeatedly until they spot something and then zoom/expand to investigate and go from there to set up an appropriate trigger?

You can use persistence, or you can also use mask mode, where you create mask that is few percent larger than signal (auto mask function) and then let it run. In mask mode you can also save violations into history and inspect them later.

[tautech]

More Batronix board learning via mostly trial and error.  This is with SW1 set to C which selects a 10 kHz sine with peaks after X periods.  Using channel 1 for pulse triggering is straightforward.  Using channel 2 is more finicky. 

This makes me wonder what folks do when they have no idea what kind of a glitch or anomaly they are looking for.  Do they use single sweep repeatedly until they spot something and then zoom/expand to investigate and go from there to set up an appropriate trigger?

A Pulse trigger will find this when set correctly.

An example using Search feature and a Pulse trigger with SDS1104X-E.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717

[Martin72]

A Pulse trigger will find this when set correctly.

If you know what you're looking for...
He asked how you generally get to it first before you target it with a more specific trigger.
With the demo boards, I know because I have selected a corresponding signal.

[Performa01]

This makes me wonder what folks do when they have no idea what kind of a glitch or anomaly they are looking for.  Do they use single sweep repeatedly until they spot something and then zoom/expand to investigate and go from there to set up an appropriate trigger?

That's the beauty of a History that's always running silently in the background: You need not sit and wait for something unusual to happen, you just work as usual. Whenever you notice something unusual in the corner of your eye, you just hit the Stop button. Then you can browse the History (either play it back at any arbitrary speed or go through it frame by frame) until you find the suspicious record.

Now you have all the time in this world to analyze the data to your hearts content, using all the tools the SDS is offering and you will be able to figure out a suitable trigger so that you can reliably capture that specific event in the future.

[pdenisowski]

This makes me wonder what folks do when they have no idea what kind of a glitch or anomaly they are looking for.  Do they use single sweep repeatedly until they spot something and then zoom/expand to investigate and go from there to set up an appropriate trigger?

Depends on the anomaly Many (most?) scopes have a glitch, runt, or width trigger for finding pulses that are the "wrong" level or duration.  There are also timeout triggers for when signals get "stuck" at a certain level, and masks or zone triggers are also useful for finding signals that diverge too far from expected values. 

I have a video that talks about the different trigger types (and how they are implemented on one of our oscilloscopes)



(Note that he Batronix demo board manual actually uses this scope - the MXO - for most of their examples)

[2N3055]

This makes me wonder what folks do when they have no idea what kind of a glitch or anomaly they are looking for.  Do they use single sweep repeatedly until they spot something and then zoom/expand to investigate and go from there to set up an appropriate trigger?

Depends on the anomaly Many (most?) scopes have a glitch, runt, or width trigger for finding pulses that are the "wrong" level or duration.  There are also timeout triggers for when signals get "stuck" at a certain level, and masks or zone triggers are also useful for finding signals that diverge too far from expected values. 

I have a video that talks about the different trigger types (and how they are implemented on one of our oscilloscopes)



(Note that he Batronix demo board manual actually uses this scope - the MXO - for most of their examples)

Nice video, as always.

Even most basic scopes nowadays have pretty much what would be "very advanced set of triggers" just 10 years ago....

It is quite easy to look at nonmonotonic edges or risetimes, pulse widths that are less or more than they should be, runts, dropouts, setup times violations etc etc..
You setup triggers for it and then wait. On scopes with all time running history you can also go back and shuffle through violations etc..

But question was about how do you find something that you don't already know how to search for.

In most scopes you can only use persistence (waiting to catch something on the screen that will give you some clues what to look for in more specific terms), or mask test. With mask test you have also on some scopes capability to save all violations for later (in history) or do some other stuff with it.

As an example, on Siglent and LeCroy scopes you also have deep memory measurements where you can setup several measurements simultaneously and use statistics and histicons to look at distribution of certain parameters.
This is very powerful technique to verify parameters of signals.
For instance you measure pulse period, P-P voltage, risetime, etc.
And let scope run for some time. You end up with statistics for millions of periods with statistical distribution right there.
And if distribution is tight and shape is Gausian (meaning stohastic) you have nice stable signal.
If distribution is multimodal (more than one peak in histogram), then you have some discrete states of the sistem influencing that parameter.
If you measure pulse period (or frequency, same difference, 1/t) and you get distribution that looks like bathtub, that means that signal is frequency modulated, and specifically with sinusoidal modulation...

So with good analytical tools, it is not about staring into the screen waiting for something to happen. It is about configuring the scope to do the hunting for you, and automating tedious work.

And then having an insight that this, this and this parameter seems to be "wondering around" you can tailor triggers to catch it "red handed" and try to correlate anomaly with other parts of the system to try and catch what causes it.

Advantage of this approach is that you quickly start not only to know "something" is wrong, but you start to analyze, understand and quantify signal qualities from the start.

More advanced scopes have SignalScan/Wavescan type of tools. Those tools practically automatically do some steps for you, isolating certain parts of signal with characteristics that seem to be statistical outliers, for operators consideration... These tools might assist you to create needed triggers and such.

Nice timesaver, but using proper steps you can actually achieve most of that manually, if scope has the rest of basic capabilities.

[Grandchuck]

I tried the persistence advice and saw some benefit.  Trying to create a mask around the glitch produced a lockup instead.  Learning can be painful

[RAPo]

Is there a kind of flowchart that, based on a description of the signal characteristics, gives you a step-by-step procedure for selecting and setting up a trigger(type)?

For instance, I have a 100kHz ramp signal with an anomaly: once in a while (not constant), the signal goes away for some time and starts again. I would like to know the "blackout" period.
What are the steps to set up the scope and answer my question?

[Grandchuck]

Persistence ON and OFF.

[pdenisowski]

Is there a kind of flowchart that, based on a description of the signal characteristics, gives you a step-by-step procedure for selecting and setting up a trigger(type)?

For instance, I have a 100kHz ramp signal with an anomaly: once in a while (not constant), the signal goes away for some time and starts again. I would like to know the "blackout" period.
What are the steps to set up the scope and answer my question?

Sounds like a timeout trigger:  the scope should be configured to trigger when the signal level is < X volts for more than Y seconds. Assuming that the time/div is set properly, you should be able to acquire the entire "blackout" period and measure the time using markers.  Since the scope will trigger when the ramp resumes, you might also want to apply a trigger offset so that the ramp restart is near the right edge of the screen.

If you have (or would like to see this on) a R&S MXO oscilloscope, I'd be happy to set it up and post a short video.

(There are other ways of doing this, but that's the first that comes to mind).

[ebastler]

Persistence ON and OFF.

The glitches produced by the demo board are still pretty frequent; so I would say the non-persistent view actually gives a better idea in this case that it is indeed a glitch. But if the glitches are rarer, they might only pop up occasionally if you set a short or no persistence time, and could be easily overlooked.

Have you tried colour grading? I find that it nicely highlights the rare events in a different color, and does not render them as dimly as intensity grading does in some situations.

[Grandchuck]

Color grading and persistence.

[Grandchuck]

Changed the Batronix board to a low glitch frequency.  Now it takes a while for them to appear.  With a glitch frequency of 0.2 Hz, one trial took a full minute for the first one to show up.

[Njk]

So with good analytical tools, it is not about staring into the screen waiting for something to happen. It is about configuring the scope to do the hunting for you, and automating tedious work.

And then having an insight that this, this and this parameter seems to be "wondering around" you can tailor triggers to catch it "red handed" and try to correlate anomaly with other parts of the system to try and catch what causes it.

Advantage of this approach is that you quickly start not only to know "something" is wrong, but you start to analyze, understand and quantify signal qualities from the start.

True, but also the other considerations (just to be fair):

- It's virtually impossible to construct a trigger that will catch every particular event in the real application case;

-  One can give many examples when all the advanced capabilities are absolutely necessary, but other one can give at least equal number of examples when all that wonders are entirely optional;

- The instrument that I don't know is useless for me. So more overhead by the learning curve, which does not depend on application;

- The cost of really advanced instrument can be really high. No way to afford it without having a lot of associated obligations. Imagine a young graduate who is deeply indebted by tuition fees, certification, licensing, etc., so he have to pay his debt during all his career. Not a slavery, but servitude seems a correct word. A modern method for causing an individual to work hard;

- In general, reliance on an advanced tool that you can't DIY weakens you because that increases your dependency on a service provided by other people.

[2N3055]

So with good analytical tools, it is not about staring into the screen waiting for something to happen. It is about configuring the scope to do the hunting for you, and automating tedious work.

And then having an insight that this, this and this parameter seems to be "wondering around" you can tailor triggers to catch it "red handed" and try to correlate anomaly with other parts of the system to try and catch what causes it.

Advantage of this approach is that you quickly start not only to know "something" is wrong, but you start to analyze, understand and quantify signal qualities from the start.

True, but also the other considerations (just to be fair):

- It's virtually impossible to construct a trigger that will catch every particular event in the real application case;

-  One can give many examples when all the advanced capabilities are absolutely necessary, but other one can give at least equal number of examples when all that wonders are entirely optional;

- The instrument that I don't know is useless for me. So more overhead by the learning curve, which does not depend on application;

- The cost of really advanced instrument can be really high. No way to afford it without having a lot of associated obligations. Imagine a young graduate who is deeply indebted by tuition fees, certification, licensing, etc., so he have to pay his debt during all his career. Not a slavery, but servitude seems a correct word. A modern method for causing an individual to work hard;

- In general, reliance on an advanced tool that you can't DIY weakens you because that increases your dependency on a service provided by other people.

I'm a bit confused as what are you trying to say, honestly.

All the advanced tools I mention (except WaveScan) are actually present on this inexpensive scope. That is why I think it is really a game changer. They don't exist on Rigols, some not even on many R&S and Keysight scopes.

And I also mentioned that WaveScan, while very nice and fancy and time saver is not strictly necessary.
It merely automates manual process.
I think you misunderstood what I meant by advanced tools. I didn't mean automated protocol verification applications and such. I call those specialized tools and they are not necessary most of the time. They are mostly used in industrial environment when you want to make sure process of verification is standardized, and when time saved testing and creating documentation will pay off.

As for triggers, I'm pretty sure you can not make single trigger that will catch all possible anomalies. But first you analyze signal and then you go through set (several) of triggers and verifications, that together serve to verify all practical combinations.

As for "servitude" and depending on advanced tools...
That is slippery slope, thinking like that. That is my opinion.

I understand your meaning (as for instance Altium users might sympathize with the sentiment, strongly), but how long you can go before you are simply creating unnecessary problems for yourself.
Shall we go back to pen and paper, if you get what I mean?

Thank you for interesting post.

Best,

[ebastler]

I understood njk to mainly say that there still is value in looking at the waveform (with the help of persistence, color grading etc.).

And I tend to agree; it is often the fastest way to get a first idea of what's wrong. Let's stick with the sine wave example from the demo board: If you didn't know whether it suffers from spikes or dropouts (at whichever levels), or maybe from sporadic phase jitter, I would argue that you can spend a lot of time thinking about the right set of measurements and histograms which will catch and discriminate the various types of potential glitches. While visually most of them will be very easy to make out -- maybe with the help of peak detection to get very short spikes.

Those devices are called oscilloscopes for a reason -- in addition to all the analytics, they are pretty handy for looking at wiggly lines. 

[2N3055]

I understood njk to mainly say that there still is value in looking at the waveform (with the help of persistence, color grading etc.).

And I tend to agree; it is often the fastest way to get a first idea of what's wrong. Let's stick with the sine wave example from the demo board: If you didn't know whether it suffers from spikes or dropouts (at whichever levels), or maybe from sporadic phase jitter, I would argue that you can spend a lot of time thinking about the right set of measurements and histograms which will catch and discriminate the various types of potential glitches. While visually most of them will be very easy to make out -- maybe with the help of peak detection to get very short spikes.

Those devices are called oscilloscopes for a reason -- in addition to all the analytics, they are pretty handy for looking at wiggly lines. 

Well of course you are looking at the screen. For sure you're not looking into your belly button....

But just staring at waveform is VERY limited in what you can do with it.
Trick is to reduce amount of just staring by getting insight into signal.

Of course, if you have something happening every 100 periods, that you will catch quickly just by watching.
Or shall I say you will notice something is there. Then you still have to correlate that thing you saw into physical world, to the reason why anomaly is there.

It is not "stare at your signal". More like "know your signal".
Of course , for obvious things, it will be, well, obvious....

[KungFuJosh]

Well of course you are looking at the screen. For sure you're not looking into your belly button....

Dagnabbit! Why do I keep making that mistake?! 🤦🤦🤦

[2N3055]

Well of course you are looking at the screen. For sure you're not looking into your belly button....

Dagnabbit! Why do I keep making that mistake?! 🤦🤦🤦

" You all wanna be looking very intently at your own belly buttons." ( Capt. Malcolm Reynolds )

[Njk]

My point was that no matter how many triggers are implemented, a waveform will come sooner or later that can't be captured as desired using any available trigger. And it's quite an accomplishment for average user to memorize hundreds of different triggers. So I wonder if any scope allows for user to define his own trigger through some kind of scripting. There must be something like that because it seems too obvious. Adjustable zone boundaries and loadable masks are nice features but that's not what I'm asking about.

And yes, I never been a big fan of a top-notch instruments. Too much instrumentation requirements can inflate the budget that can effectively prevent the project from start. And worse, provision of an instrument that is ten times expensive usually implies the provider's expectation that I'll do my job ten times faster. Of course, it's not so simple but the elements of social engineering are always there.

[pdenisowski]

My point was that no matter how many triggers are implemented, a waveform will come sooner or later that can't be captured as desired using any available trigger. And it's quite an accomplishment for average user to memorize hundreds of different triggers. So I wonder if any scope allows for user to define his own trigger through some kind of scripting. There must be something like that because it seems too obvious. Adjustable zone boundaries and loadable masks are nice features but that's not what I'm asking about.

Modern oscilloscopes are pretty flexible when it comes to triggering (although I'm not aware of any scope that has "hundreds" of trigger types ), so it might be helpful if you could provide an example of a waveform that you think would be difficult or impossible to trigger on. 

I'm not aware of any "scripting" for triggers, but on some of our scopes we do allow the user to trigger on a sequence of events:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/MXO4_HTML_UserManual_en/Content/66d463be244c466b.htm

[KungFuJosh]

I think the next firmware update will include a "Psychic Trigger." Problem solved. 😉

On a slightly less unserious note, how long until AI ruins oscilloscopes?

[tautech]

My point was that no matter how many triggers are implemented, a waveform will come sooner or later that can't be captured as desired using any available trigger. And it's quite an accomplishment for average user to memorize hundreds of different triggers. So I wonder if any scope allows for user to define his own trigger through some kind of scripting. There must be something like that because it seems too obvious. Adjustable zone boundaries and loadable masks are nice features but that's not what I'm asking about.

And yes, I never been a big fan of a top-notch instruments. Too much instrumentation requirements can inflate the budget that can effectively prevent the project from start. And worse, provision of an instrument that is ten times expensive usually implies the provider's expectation that I'll do my job ten times faster. Of course, it's not so simple but the elements of social engineering are always there.

Sorry but 

The simplest solution is a single trigger with a appropriate level set then assign one or two Zone triggers and let the scope do the work.
When you have a scope with these features the rest is easy.

[RAPo]

Many thanks for your elaborate answer.
I don't have R&S MXO scope (yet (maybe )? the nearest R&S I have is a HMO1024)), but a video is always nice.

Please don't consider me unkind; maybe I didn't express myself well, but I'm looking for something more vendor-agnostic approach that incorporates the wisdom of people (like you or old hams).
The manuals nowadays describe the trigger itself (e.g. for the SDS800X: Interval Trigger: Trigger when the time difference between the neighbouring rising or falling edges meets the time limit
condition) but not when to use it.

After this post, my mind wandered away. Wouldn't it be nice to have a trigger trilogy (either in book, PDF or video like in the MXO5):

• Trigger 101: describing the real basics (trigger type, trigger mode, trigger level, when to use  both rising and falling edge triggering, interplay with holdoff, etc.)
• Trigger SPY: a procedural approach to triggering based on a real-world question, as I indicated as an example, and some more high level: do we just capture data, trigger later  (because the new scopes are so good at it) or does it pay off to think a bit more of the problem and use a trigger and then do a further analysis. A bit like the opening discussion in .
  
• The art of triggering: the wisdom of the masters in all detail (like in your answer, or maybe there are more clever solutions like filtering the initial 100kHz away) centred around the signal+question at hand.

A scope demoboard could be a good 'add-on' to this trilogy.

It would indeed be nice for a relative newbie like myself.

Is there a kind of flowchart that, based on a description of the signal characteristics, gives you a step-by-step procedure for selecting and setting up a trigger(type)?

For instance, I have a 100kHz ramp signal with an anomaly: once in a while (not constant), the signal goes away for some time and starts again. I would like to know the "blackout" period.
What are the steps to set up the scope and answer my question?

Sounds like a timeout trigger:  the scope should be configured to trigger when the signal level is < X volts for more than Y seconds. Assuming that the time/div is set properly, you should be able to acquire the entire "blackout" period and measure the time using markers.  Since the scope will trigger when the ramp resumes, you might also want to apply a trigger offset so that the ramp restart is near the right edge of the screen.

If you have (or would like to see this on) a R&S MXO oscilloscope, I'd be happy to set it up and post a short video.

(There are other ways of doing this, but that's the first that comes to mind).

[RAPo]

And if you need a real world signal for your video setup, buy a Fnirsi DMT-99, set it in capacitance mode and measure the signal. Here presented on a DHO942S with edge trigger and persistence to the max:

[2N3055]

My point was that no matter how many triggers are implemented, a waveform will come sooner or later that can't be captured as desired using any available trigger. And it's quite an accomplishment for average user to memorize hundreds of different triggers. So I wonder if any scope allows for user to define his own trigger through some kind of scripting. There must be something like that because it seems too obvious. Adjustable zone boundaries and loadable masks are nice features but that's not what I'm asking about.

Modern oscilloscopes are pretty flexible when it comes to triggering (although I'm not aware of any scope that has "hundreds" of trigger types ), so it might be helpful if you could provide an example of a waveform that you think would be difficult or impossible to trigger on. 

I'm not aware of any "scripting" for triggers, but on some of our scopes we do allow the user to trigger on a sequence of events:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/MXO4_HTML_UserManual_en/Content/66d463be244c466b.htm

Agree.

Siglent also have logic triggers, qualified triggers, zone triggering (where we take any trigger and enhance it with go/no go zones).
All of these advanced trigger types (except zone that starts with SDS2000X+/XHD  series) are present even in cheapest SDS800.
And add on protocol triggers on top of that.
And all of it is maybe 10 pages to read... Hardly more work than learning scripting language.

I have no problems triggering on something specific with scopes I have (Keysight, several 12 bit Siglents and several Picos) provided I know what to look for.
On Picoscopes I miss protocol triggers though.

As I said, if you are trying to verify clock for instance, you can simply use mask mode (because signal is very simple and repetitive) and just let it run. If you have no violation in some time (you decide what certainty you need, so it might be few hours or few days..) you are good.

But if scope has good measurements and statistics, even without Jitter/Eye packages, you can gather statistics on  timing parameters, overshoot, risetimes, Cycle to Cycle jitter...  And have a look at histograms to see how it behaves... And today you have that even with SDS800xHD ...

[Performa01]

The manuals nowadays describe the trigger itself (e.g. for the SDS800X: Interval Trigger: Trigger when the time difference between the neighbouring rising or falling edges meets the time limit
condition) but not when to use it.

After this post, my mind wandered away. Wouldn't it be nice to have a trigger trilogy (either in book, PDF or video like in the MXO5):

• Trigger 101: describing the real basics (trigger type, trigger mode, trigger level, when to use  both rising and falling edge triggering, interplay with holdoff, etc.)
• Trigger SPY: a procedural approach to triggering based on a real-world question, as I indicated as an example, and some more high level: do we just capture data, trigger later  (because the new scopes are so good at it) or does it pay off to think a bit more of the problem and use a trigger and then do a further analysis. A bit like the opening discussion in this video:
  
  
• The art of triggering: the wisdom of the masters in all detail (like in your answer, or maybe there are more clever solutions like filtering the initial 100kHz away) centred around the signal+question at hand.

Something like this would probably never be complete and several experts from different application areas could contribute to the tipps & tricks ("Art of Triggering") section.

Maybe someone (or even myself) will make a first attempt on this eventually, but until then you could have a look at the existing material:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371778/#msg1371778

Reply #2, the trigger section in the first attached document covers ome of your questions and gives examples for all the basic trigger types.

[Martin72]

Let me come back to the topic...
I've been working with the board again recently due to the new Scope.
It's almost bursting with signal possibilities, you don't even realize it at first glance, only when you read the relevant passages in the manual again and again does it become clear.
This also applies to the topic of decoder signals and this is where my point of criticism comes in, which I noticed earlier.
Maybe we'll get a few new ones through an update, the emphasis is on maybe.
But it already has a lot of decoder signals, but a few are not obvious at first glance and that bothers me.
Take CAN, for example...
For another topic in the forum I just wanted to show a CAN decoding on the SDS800X HD, look at the demo board, see directly only UART, SPI, I²C, otherwise J2 with the parallel outputs D0...D7.
Shit, then I look at my STB-3 demo board from Siglent, Ah, CAN-H, CAN-L, all right, I'll take that.
The Batronix board "naturally" has CAN, even CAN-FD, LIN and Manchester...
RTFM, it is shown on page 44, the signals are on the parallel port J2...
D7: CAN
D6: CAN with occasional bit errors
D5: CAN-FD
D4: CAN-FD with occasional bit errors
D3: LIN
D2: LIN with occasional bit errors
D1: Manchester
D0: Pulse
I would like to see the designations on the circuit board, next to D7/D5/D3/D1.
If it's obvious to the eye, you'll find yourself digging out the manual for more details.
Well, that would be an update that I wouldn't want, because I wouldn't want to buy it again for a print.
But in general and for new buyers it would be nice.

[Grandchuck]

The Batronix board can produce a 1kHz sine with about 5 mVp-p noise with switch 2 in position 1 .  In position 0, the added noise is zero. With the scope set for normal acquire one can detect the difference between the two; but only when switching back and forth between 1 and 0 (there is a very slight blurring effect with the noise on ... [screens below]).  The same is true in zoom mode. 

By using acquire ERES 2.0 the noise is easier to see, as shown below.

Ch 2 is filtered so the noise does not show up (until switch 2 is set higher).

The board also will provide a square wave with selectable noise and the noise is a bit easier to see then.

I hope more folks who have the board will try some ideas and post them here.

[Electro Fan]

I like this demo board, and I'm learning a lot about features I haven't explored much.

But when I got to step 3.5, to test the MSO parallel bus interface with my Siglent SDS2000X+, the scope seems to be lacking in capabilities.
If I'm understanding it correctly, the Siglent "decodes" parallel signals in the digital menu instead of the decode menu where it can decode serial signals.

And there is no option to see the decoded ASCII value:

(Attachment Link)

Converting the hex shown here, "42 61 74 72 6f 6e 69 78", to ASCII using any online converter produces the text "Batronix".
So it seems like an incredibly simple operation to do. Am I missing something perhaps?

I'm late to the party on this but here is another vote for adding ASCII decodes to parallel signal decoding in case anyone is reporting the vote count to Siglent in an effort to get Siglent to add this feature, or in case Siglent is listening directly to forum input.    Thx

[ebastler]

I'm late to the party on this but here is another vote for adding ASCII decodes to parallel signal decoding in case anyone is reporting the vote count to Siglent in an effort to get Siglent to add this feature, or in case Siglent is listening directly to forum input.    Thx

Where is parallel ASCII transmission still being used? Sounds very Centronics to me.

[Martin72]

@Elekctro Fan:
Perhaps post with reference to this thread in a thread that siglent is more likely to know.
(I think we did that back then too, I'd have to look.)

[pdenisowski]

Where is parallel ASCII transmission still being used? Sounds very Centronics to me.

GPIB

[Electro Fan]

My point was that no matter how many triggers are implemented, a waveform will come sooner or later that can't be captured as desired using any available trigger. And it's quite an accomplishment for average user to memorize hundreds of different triggers. So I wonder if any scope allows for user to define his own trigger through some kind of scripting. There must be something like that because it seems too obvious. Adjustable zone boundaries and loadable masks are nice features but that's not what I'm asking about.

Modern oscilloscopes are pretty flexible when it comes to triggering (although I'm not aware of any scope that has "hundreds" of trigger types ), so it might be helpful if you could provide an example of a waveform that you think would be difficult or impossible to trigger on. 

I'm not aware of any "scripting" for triggers, but on some of our scopes we do allow the user to trigger on a sequence of events:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/MXO4_HTML_UserManual_en/Content/66d463be244c466b.htm

Agree.

Siglent also have logic triggers, qualified triggers, zone triggering (where we take any trigger and enhance it with go/no go zones).
All of these advanced trigger types (except zone that starts with SDS2000X+/XHD  series) are present even in cheapest SDS800.
And add on protocol triggers on top of that.
And all of it is maybe 10 pages to read... Hardly more work than learning scripting language.

I have no problems triggering on something specific with scopes I have (Keysight, several 12 bit Siglents and several Picos) provided I know what to look for.
On Picoscopes I miss protocol triggers though.

As I said, if you are trying to verify clock for instance, you can simply use mask mode (because signal is very simple and repetitive) and just let it run. If you have no violation in some time (you decide what certainty you need, so it might be few hours or few days..) you are good.

But if scope has good measurements and statistics, even without Jitter/Eye packages, you can gather statistics on  timing parameters, overshoot, risetimes, Cycle to Cycle jitter...  And have a look at histograms to see how it behaves... And today you have that even with SDS800xHD ...

2N3055, can you tell us more about what keeps Jitter/Eye capabilities from being offered on lower/'midrange model scopes?  Is it a fundamental assumption that lower bandwidth scopes don't need/justify Jitter/Eye capabilities, or is it the cost to implement, or something else?  Thx

[2N3055]

My point was that no matter how many triggers are implemented, a waveform will come sooner or later that can't be captured as desired using any available trigger. And it's quite an accomplishment for average user to memorize hundreds of different triggers. So I wonder if any scope allows for user to define his own trigger through some kind of scripting. There must be something like that because it seems too obvious. Adjustable zone boundaries and loadable masks are nice features but that's not what I'm asking about.

Modern oscilloscopes are pretty flexible when it comes to triggering (although I'm not aware of any scope that has "hundreds" of trigger types ), so it might be helpful if you could provide an example of a waveform that you think would be difficult or impossible to trigger on. 

I'm not aware of any "scripting" for triggers, but on some of our scopes we do allow the user to trigger on a sequence of events:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/MXO4_HTML_UserManual_en/Content/66d463be244c466b.htm

Agree.

Siglent also have logic triggers, qualified triggers, zone triggering (where we take any trigger and enhance it with go/no go zones).
All of these advanced trigger types (except zone that starts with SDS2000X+/XHD  series) are present even in cheapest SDS800.
And add on protocol triggers on top of that.
And all of it is maybe 10 pages to read... Hardly more work than learning scripting language.

I have no problems triggering on something specific with scopes I have (Keysight, several 12 bit Siglents and several Picos) provided I know what to look for.
On Picoscopes I miss protocol triggers though.

As I said, if you are trying to verify clock for instance, you can simply use mask mode (because signal is very simple and repetitive) and just let it run. If you have no violation in some time (you decide what certainty you need, so it might be few hours or few days..) you are good.

But if scope has good measurements and statistics, even without Jitter/Eye packages, you can gather statistics on  timing parameters, overshoot, risetimes, Cycle to Cycle jitter...  And have a look at histograms to see how it behaves... And today you have that even with SDS800xHD ...

2N3055, can you tell us more about what keeps Jitter/Eye capabilities from being offered on lower/'midrange model scopes?  Is it a fundamental assumption that lower bandwidth scopes don't need/justify Jitter/Eye capabilities, or is it the cost to implement, or something else?  Thx

Well, I can't speak officially as to what Siglent decisions are.

But I know that on SDS6000A eye/jitter is hardware accelerated, which is how you want it to keep it fast. Jitter/eye/bathtub diagrams are statistical analysis and they need lots of data and you need to be able to get enough data in relatively short time, so you don't have to let it sit there for weeks.
I know there is domestic Chinese SDS6000 version that cannot have jitter/eye because of difference in FPGA architecture, for instance. It is a 1GHz scope.

As for BW, I agree that low BW scopes with eye/jitter would apply to very limited market.
Most of the usage is for faster protocols..
And you need a healthy reserve in BW/risetime spec of the scope over signal you are measuring to get good data.
Also you probably will need some kind of active probing solution, meaning scope with active probe interface.
All of that stuff gets expensive fast, even with Siglent's good prices.
So it is available on 6000A/L and 7000A series.

But, new analysis options are being developed that are applicable for lower/mid range scopes. For instance, new SPI/I2C compliance test/report. That is something very interesting for embedded work, and that option alone on some A brands scope is so expensive, you can buy whole  SDS2000x+ for that purpose alone.

And for embedded work on SPI/I2C that is what is very useful.

[blurpy]

Where is parallel ASCII transmission still being used? Sounds very Centronics to me.

Not sure where it's still being used (other than GPIB), but some people find repairing, restoring or exploring old stuff fun, as well as building new stuff with older technology, like following Ben Eaters videos

It didn't cross my mind that the feature would be missing when buying the probes and licenses for using the digital channels.

@Elekctro Fan:
Perhaps post with reference to this thread in a thread that siglent is more likely to know.
(I think we did that back then too, I'd have to look.)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hd-missing-features-and-bugs/msg5175306/#msg5175306

And

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg5175312/#msg5175312

[ebastler]

Not sure where it's still being used (other than GPIB), but some people find repairing, restoring or exploring old stuff fun, as well as building new stuff with older technology, like following Ben Eaters videos

It didn't cross my mind that the feature would be missing when buying the probes and licenses for using the digital channels.

If you are into that generation of technology (I am too!), you are fully expected to know all ASCII hex codes by heart. 

[2N3055]

Not sure where it's still being used (other than GPIB), but some people find repairing, restoring or exploring old stuff fun, as well as building new stuff with older technology, like following Ben Eaters videos

It didn't cross my mind that the feature would be missing when buying the probes and licenses for using the digital channels.

If you are into that generation of technology (I am too!), you are fully expected to know all ASCII hex codes by heart. 

WORD!! 

[Martin72]

This thread is about a demo board, so you use it for demonstration purposes, among other things.
People who are less involved in the ASCII table, i.e. anyone under 40  , might be more likely to understand an ASCII decoding of the Batronix lettering or the joke/countries in parallel decoding.
Hence the request for a corresponding extension to the Siglent scopes, in the appropriate threads.

[ebastler]

This thread is about a demo board, so you use it for demonstration purposes, among other things.
People who are less involved in the ASCII table, i.e. anyone under 40  , might be more likely to understand an ASCII decoding of the Batronix lettering or the joke/countries in parallel decoding.
Hence the request for a corresponding extension to the Siglent scopes, in the appropriate threads.

Frankly, that feels a bit backwards to me. Just because Batronix chose to implement a not-so-practical ASCII example for their "parallel data bus" demo, we are now asking Siglent to add a decoder option so we can run the demo nicely?

I would rather ask Batronix to revise the parallel transmission in their demo board. If they add an R/W and an Enable or Chip Select signal, it would be a more realistic demo of things going on on a data bus. I think it would be fine to sacrifice two of the data bits for that, leaving 5*data, CLK, R/W, /CS. Then mix two messages (bit patterns), one in Read access mode, one in Write access mode, interspersed with many other random bytes which have /CS not set.

Pulling out the relevant Read or Write data stream would be a nice challenge, and closer to a real-world data bus scenario. The 5 data bits could encode a running count, a Fibonacci sequence, Baudot letters, whatever. I don't expect Siglent to implement a Baudot display mode for the parallel decoder!

[blurpy]

we are now asking Siglent to add a decoder option so we can run the demo nicely?

Not really though. Siglent has already implemented the decoder for parallel signals. The hard part is getting the binary value from the signal, which works today. After that, you decide how to display the result to the user. Display as the original binary value, or something more humanly readable, like hex or ascii.

And the functionality to convert binary to ascii is already implemented for serial signals. So all the pieces are there already, we are just asking Siglent to add the required glue and menu element so we can use it. A demo board like this is just the first place many will experience this lacking feature, before venturing into real projects.

[Electro Fan]

Not sure where it's still being used (other than GPIB), but some people find repairing, restoring or exploring old stuff fun, as well as building new stuff with older technology, like following Ben Eaters videos

It didn't cross my mind that the feature would be missing when buying the probes and licenses for using the digital channels.

If you are into that generation of technology (I am too!), you are fully expected to know all ASCII hex codes by heart. 

01010100  01101000  01111000

(MSB, no start or stop bits, no parity bit, any bps)

[Electro Fan]

we are now asking Siglent to add a decoder option so we can run the demo nicely?

Not really though. Siglent has already implemented the decoder for parallel signals. The hard part is getting the binary value from the signal, which works today. After that, you decide how to display the result to the user. Display as the original binary value, or something more humanly readable, like hex or ascii.

And the functionality to convert binary to ascii is already implemented for serial signals. So all the pieces are there already, we are just asking Siglent to add the required glue and menu element so we can use it. A demo board like this is just the first place many will experience this lacking feature, before venturing into real projects.

+1
 

[axantas]

we are now asking Siglent to add a decoder option so we can run the demo nicely?

Not really though. Siglent has already implemented the decoder for parallel signals. The hard part is getting the binary value from the signal, which works today. After that, you decide how to display the result to the user. Display as the original binary value, or something more humanly readable, like hex or ascii.

And the functionality to convert binary to ascii is already implemented for serial signals. So all the pieces are there already, we are just asking Siglent to add the required glue and menu element so we can use it. A demo board like this is just the first place many will experience this lacking feature, before venturing into real projects.

I do not completely disagree - just a little bit...
Venturing into new projects also means mastering hurdles - so to say.

Houston, we have a problem.

Finding the solution is not pushing button number 5 to get into the menue, but to find out and to learn. I sometimes like to run into a problem and then to search for the solution (including frustrating failures...), because it helps venturing future projects.

[blurpy]

Finding the solution is not pushing button number 5 to get into the menue, but to find out and to learn. I sometimes like to run into a problem and then to search for the solution (including frustrating failures...), because it helps venturing future projects.

I agree that learning is valuable, but optional automation wont stop anyone from learning if they want, and at the same time it speeds up the task for those who already know or don't care.

Modern scopes are pretty amazing efficiency tools. All the nice measurements that Siglent have implemented for us are there because it saves us time, even if we know how to count divisions to get peek to peek voltage or know the math behind RMS. I don't see anyone advocating to remove features here, including the removal of ascii support for serial signals. Or is that what is happening?

[ebastler]

I don't see anyone advocating to remove features here, including the removal of ascii support for serial signals. Or is that what is happening?

That's called a strawman argument -- nobody has ever suggested that. But serial protocols are quite commonly used to transmit ASCII data, while parallel buses are not (anymore). Hence I think there are many things Siglent could do which are more important than implementing ASCII output for the parallel decoder, even if that would be a limited effort.

For example, how about enabling pattern "trigger" for the Search function? That would enable us to capture and decode a long data sequence from a parallel bus including its handhake signals, then look for particular situations (patterns) on those lines and highlight them via search markers.

That would be really useful for working with parallel buses in my opinion. In contrast to ASCII-formatted output, where the key rationale seems to be a nicer demo with the Batronix board. 

[blurpy]

For example, how about enabling pattern "trigger" for the Search function? That would enable us to capture and decode a long data sequence from a parallel bus including its handhake signals, then look for particular situations (patterns) on those lines and highlight them via search markers.

Well you would learn much more by not having this feature I think

[blurpy]

I know that I'm being a bit annoying here (sorry). I just find the use of "learning ability" as a reason for not implementing a feature to be a bit provoking.

It's fair to prioritize based on how many find something valuable, which is probably why ascii is missing for parallel signals.

[ebastler]

For example, how about enabling pattern "trigger" for the Search function? That would enable us to capture and decode a long data sequence from a parallel bus including its handhake signals, then look for particular situations (patterns) on those lines and highlight them via search markers.

Well you would learn much more by not having this feature I think

I was serious about this proposal. How would you currently deal with a data bus which addresses various devices, where you want to review all (!) write accesses to one particular device? You can trigger on the desired combination of R/W and CS states, but then you will miss a lot of accesses during trigger re-arming gaps. But you cannot search for this combination of states in a longer capture.

Not sure how serious you are about the pain level caused by the lack of ASCII decoding. 
I never talked about "learning ability", by the way; not sure where you got that itch from.

[Martin72]

Discussing the sense or not of a possible feature for siglent scopes would make more sense in one of the siglent feature threads.

[ebastler]

Discussing the sense or not of a possible feature for siglent scopes would make more sense in one of the siglent feature threads.

I agree, and will propose the pattern search in the SDS800X HD feature request thread. I was just trying to discourage the request for a particular Siglent feature (parallel ASCII decoding) based on a "need" which is caused by Batronix' choice of a demo gimmick.