Author Topic: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown  (Read 277368 times)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #475 on: September 07, 2023, 05:26:30 pm »
And you can see lot's of people that would buy it to tweak fan and play with it.

Yeah, that's totally the reason we're buying it.

Definitely not to use it as an oscilloscope.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #476 on: September 07, 2023, 05:31:11 pm »

It was around 22uV Stdev (AC RMS) with those settings at 50 Ω, at 1MΩ around 32 uV Stdev.

But make a note that when you enable 20 MHz BW on Rigol it enables lowpass filtering in software.
That is equivalent of enabling ERES on Siglent, which Siglent does not do automatically.

If we enable appropriate ERES then we get 17-18uV at 50Ω, and 29-30 at 1 MΩ.

Make note that Siglent has less noise at higher frequencies and Rigol a bit less at low frequencies.

This make me interested about 1000X HD. I'm curious enough to wait for it ...

I would wait for DHO800 to be released to sales and actually available to test before decision, regardless of 1000X HD..

I see too many little (and not so little) possible annoyances of not fully finished product with many weird design choices and price mandated compromises...

And you can see lot's of people that would buy it to tweak fan and play with it.
Which is fully OK, if your hobby is playing with the scope. If you want to do things with the scope in reliable manner and use to do other electronics (hobby and/or pro) I would wait and see how it actually works in real life.
Agreed. I just watched Dave's teardown and it looks like a neat little scope. But keeping Rigol's track record for putting unfinished products on the market in mind, it would be wise to hold off any purchase if the goal is to use the scope for any real work. But for an extra scope it might be worthwhile just to have 12 bit resolution with a relatively low noise level (if this model has a good low noise performance) at a low cost.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2023, 05:37:26 pm by nctnico »
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #477 on: September 07, 2023, 05:37:49 pm »
One reason for the long bootup time is the fact that Rigol is using an userdebug build. An user build (which doesn't offer e.g. adb root) boots much faster. I'd assume 5-20 seconds boot time reduction.
Agreed.

it sounds like the full sleep mode is complex because it relies on Rigol having wired it with independent power rails for logic & processing, and you'd have to reconfigure all the logic when coming out of standby (how long does that take?).
And, depending on how Rigol has implemented the FPGA, it might not even be possible (for an external team, at all).

Optimally, the FPGA itself would use standard PCIe power management, and the subsystems (analog frontends) one GPIO pin to control whether they're powered or not.  (It may sound "obvious", but when the SoC GPIO pins operate at say 1.8V logic levels, it is not the most straightforward method; instead, a designer might opt for a power management IC, that only ensures everything is powered up in the right order, with no provision for sleep modes.)

GPIO support for RK3399 (and most common GPIO extenders like PCA954x) is baked in to the Linux/Android kernels, so it is just a matter of enabling the support in the kernel, and describing/exposing them in the Device Tree description.

If Rigol did it the PCIe ASPM + GPIO way, then various low power modes are possible with not too much effort (depending only on how complicated the power-up sequencing from sleep modes is).

Alternatively "PS Clock Control" can take the (FPGA) Arm processor from 766MHz to 30MHz which would save power in a standby mode, but I don't know if that would also underclock the power-hungry logic?
I wouldn't know; I haven't worked enough with FPGAs yet.

It is interesting to note that for Android 7 TV boxes based on the same SoC, like H96 MAX, typically use 5V 2A power supplies.  Of course, the DHO800/900 also have a built-in display, and its backlight is likely to draw quite a lot of power, relatively speaking.  I don't expect the front panel controls to draw much power at all (even the LED lights in them), so it really depends on whether reliable software control over the power hungry subsystems in the scope is possible or not.  Often the turning off part is easy, and the turning on in the correct order, reliably, is the hard part.

(Which is also why I would not be surprised at all to find out that the Rigol DHO800/900 systems integration team were still working on exactly this.  Having the system work reliably first, then concentrate on optimizations like bootup and power saving modes, would be the best approach, in my opinion.)
 
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Offline Serg65536

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #478 on: September 07, 2023, 05:53:02 pm »
September 8 is the release date! Dave should finally post the review! (I hope so)
 

Offline mawyatt

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #479 on: September 07, 2023, 05:54:28 pm »

What prevents Rigol from hiring that person?

Simple, $!!!

These folks would likely command a salary/bonus in the region of the Rigol CEO, and they would become quickly bored with only this product chip-set. These type folks are the best of the best the engineering community has, they thrive on the continuous challenges and pressure of advanced chip design, similar to professional athletes, and can chose to work anywhere.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #480 on: September 07, 2023, 06:05:35 pm »
September 8 is the release date! Dave should finally post the review! (I hope so)
Dave doesn't do full reviews. It is a lot of work that ends up in boring videos.
He is content producer. He does unboxing, and simple demonstrations because those have good price performance.
This is not me criticizing him, but simply a fact.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2023, 06:17:21 pm by 2N3055 »
 

Offline mawyatt

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #481 on: September 07, 2023, 06:15:02 pm »

It is interesting to note that for Android 7 TV boxes based on the same SoC, like H96 MAX, typically use 5V 2A power supplies.  Of course, the DHO800/900 also have a built-in display, and its backlight is likely to draw quite a lot of power, relatively speaking.  I don't expect the front panel controls to draw much power at all (even the LED lights in them), so it really depends on whether reliable software control over the power hungry subsystems in the scope is possible or not.  Often the turning off part is easy, and the turning on in the correct order, reliably, is the hard part.

(Which is also why I would not be surprised at all to find out that the Rigol DHO800/900 systems integration team were still working on exactly this.  Having the system work reliably first, then concentrate on optimizations like bootup and power saving modes, would be the best approach, in my opinion.)

Power gated of subsystems was a popular method to save power in complex chips long ago, hopefully this was also considered in the overall system DSO design. If so, this opens the door for clever folks to hack this and create all sorts of interesting options as well as with this small form factor Rigol introducing a battery powered version even with the higher power "Full On" apparent from Dave's review.

Wish we had the skills of the clever hackers, as this looks like a really fun platform to play around with. True professionals may bypass this for awhile since their time is $, but hobbiest and retired folks may decide to test the waters early, and as mentioned this is likely Rigol's business model, especially considering the custom chip-set NRE $ recoveryl!!

Interesting times indeed :-+

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Offline dreamcat4

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #482 on: September 07, 2023, 06:47:46 pm »
So if i understand correctly... (perhaps not every last detail, but more or less)

* The usb-c powering is great, because...
 * it lets us have a possibility for mobile applications, for example automotive or remote site
 * it lets us hook the scope up to a battery, for use in power supply or other HV type applications...

Although i would caution this, to not have floating about, to then instead tie it to some other part of any such HV circuit AND (probably) also use differential probes. Perhaps somebody else can be a bit clearer about all that.

Anyhow getting to the actual point of my comment here:

* 30w constant power is a bit sadface for battery powered application, since then requires a more hefty battery for longer runtimes
* However does it makes sense from a perspective of the thermal warm up, not to have things shutting down some of the time?
  * But an optional power saving modes could still be possible - but at the impact of the accuracy or noise performance etc.
* That a lot of these FPGAs have to be powered on MULTIPLE rails. And have very complex power requirements seems the main challenge here. Since you take away some rails and it no longer functions properly, right? (and presumably an invalid rail taints things to the extent to need to reset / reboot everything?)

So while we could [maybe] have some expectations for a sleep mode in android OS, or some slightly faster overall boot time. The FPGA is the main problem here. Which can only be solved by Rigol with future product updates...

Ok then. So what sort of batter are we talking about here to feed 30 watts constant power? For example to be large enough for the same sorts of duration as a laptop? Sounds a bit like a laptop battery then? Hmm but for what voltage?
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #483 on: September 07, 2023, 07:07:59 pm »

So one should not be surprised that it's takes years to initially develop such an ADC, and more years to get it right!!

The devil is on the details with those things. You don't have access to standard resistors. you can't just go : i need 10k.. that is not guaranteed. The only thing that you can be sure of is ratios. Resistances are specified in units. for example 1 micron by 1 micron for technology x gives you roughly 1k. make the thing 2x1 ( double wide ) and it halves (~500r) . Make it 1x2 ( double long ) and it doubles (~2k). You don't care about the actual value. You care about the ratios. So making a an R-2R network or reference divider ladder is simple and accurate... you'd think....
The problem is they cannot guarantee layer uniformity. During the vacuum deposition of resistive layer the wafer may not sit perfectly flat and there could be a slight thickness gradient across the wafer. A resistor on the left may be thicker ( so lower value) than a resistor on the right. Drat... so what if we split the resistors in  a voltage divider. We stick one half of each left , and one half of each right. Then the gradient self compensates and the ratio is correct again.. good. But what if the wafer or gradient rotates 90 degrees .. fffffuuu.... So we split the resistors in 4 equal pieces and position the north east south west. Now it doesn't matter which way the thickness gradient goes over the wafer. It cancels out.
I did that on an 8 bit reference ladder for a 17MHz adc in 1995. It's not easy to do that place and route...
The same goes if you need to do current mirrors. You can't guarantee there is no gradient , so split the transistors in 4 quadrants , then bundle. It makes very interesting layouts.. like checkerboards.. it's called Common Centroid Layout

further reading : (warning : causes severe headaches....)

http://class.ece.iastate.edu/vlsi2/docs/Papers%20Done/2000-06-TCAS2-YC.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301828945_Layout_Symmetries_Quantification_and_Application_to_Cancel_Nonlinear_Process_Gradients
« Last Edit: September 07, 2023, 07:16:11 pm by free_electron »
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Online Martin72

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #484 on: September 07, 2023, 08:28:41 pm »
Agreed. I just watched Dave's teardown and it looks like a neat little scope. But keeping Rigol's track record for putting unfinished products on the market in mind, it would be wise to hold off any purchase if the goal is to use the scope for any real work. But for an extra scope it might be worthwhile just to have 12 bit resolution with a relatively low noise level (if this model has a good low noise performance) at a low cost.

I pre-ordered the DHO804 despite the teardown video....
What you saw there was rather cheap looking, but that's probably the price you have to pay for wanting 12 bit for a handful of dollars.
And that will be an interesting thing when I compare the scope with the DS1054Z and the SDS1104X-E.

 
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Offline Nikki Smith

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #485 on: September 07, 2023, 08:48:39 pm »
Ok then. So what sort of batter are we talking about here to feed 30 watts constant power? For example to be large enough for the same sorts of duration as a laptop? Sounds a bit like a laptop battery then? Hmm but for what voltage?

It needs a regulated 15V output by USB-C, and at 37W max you'd need a chunky 300Wh battery for a full day of work. And those are advertised as "portable power stations" that weigh 3kg+ (7 lbs+) rather than the little "power banks" for smartphones. Laptop batteries top out at around 100Wh, which is the max allowed by airlines.

So you can see that adding a standby power mode would drastically reduce the size, weight & cost of a practical battery pack.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #486 on: September 07, 2023, 09:14:25 pm »

So one should not be surprised that it's takes years to initially develop such an ADC, and more years to get it right!!

The devil is on the details with those things. You don't have access to standard resistors. you can't just go : i need 10k.. that is not guaranteed. The only thing that you can be sure of is ratios. Resistances are specified in units. for example 1 micron by 1 micron for technology x gives you roughly 1k. make the thing 2x1 ( double wide ) and it halves (~500r) . Make it 1x2 ( double long ) and it doubles (~2k). You don't care about the actual value. You care about the ratios. So making a an R-2R network or reference divider ladder is simple and accurate... you'd think....
The problem is they cannot guarantee layer uniformity. During the vacuum deposition of resistive layer the wafer may not sit perfectly flat and there could be a slight thickness gradient across the wafer. A resistor on the left may be thicker ( so lower value) than a resistor on the right. Drat... so what if we split the resistors in  a voltage divider. We stick one half of each left , and one half of each right. Then the gradient self compensates and the ratio is correct again.. good. But what if the wafer or gradient rotates 90 degrees .. fffffuuu.... So we split the resistors in 4 equal pieces and position the north east south west. Now it doesn't matter which way the thickness gradient goes over the wafer. It cancels out.
I did that on an 8 bit reference ladder for a 17MHz adc in 1995. It's not easy to do that place and route...
The same goes if you need to do current mirrors. You can't guarantee there is no gradient , so split the transistors in 4 quadrants , then bundle. It makes very interesting layouts.. like checkerboards.. it's called Common Centroid Layout

further reading : (warning : causes severe headaches....)

http://class.ece.iastate.edu/vlsi2/docs/Papers%20Done/2000-06-TCAS2-YC.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301828945_Layout_Symmetries_Quantification_and_Application_to_Cancel_Nonlinear_Process_Gradients
:)
You really don't need inform Mike about any of this.  ;)
Something he shared with me a while back but in low res....
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Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #487 on: September 07, 2023, 10:29:22 pm »
What prevents Rigol from hiring that person?
Simple, $!!!

Rigol doesn't have money?

These folks would likely command a salary/bonus in the region of the Rigol CEO

And earn Rigol FAR more money in return.

These 'scopes are going to dominate the market for the next two or three years at least. The DS1054Z is still #1 after about 10 years despite fierce competition.

The ASIC inside is also used in the 1000+4000 series, and will likely appear on other models real soon.

and they would become quickly bored with only this product chip-set.

Maybe they were hired as consultants.
 

Offline .RC.

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #488 on: September 07, 2023, 11:48:09 pm »


These 'scopes are going to dominate the market for the next two or three years at least.

We will wait and see.  I predict there will be bugs and there will be outrage and there will be fangirls and there will be trolls and, well there will be pretty much the same as what happens when a company popular with the hobby consumer crowd releases a new technological iteration of their product.

I am sure it will be an OK product for the price.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #489 on: September 08, 2023, 12:05:52 am »
September 8 is the release date! Dave should finally post the review! (I hope so)

Nope, sorry, haven't even started shooting it yet.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #490 on: September 08, 2023, 12:09:46 am »
September 8 is the release date! Dave should finally post the review! (I hope so)
Dave doesn't do full reviews. It is a lot of work that ends up in boring videos.
He is content producer. He does unboxing, and simple demonstrations because those have good price performance.
This is not me criticizing him, but simply a fact.

I do plan on doing a full review video on this scope.
If you watched my live show yesterday, I talked about the process.
 
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Offline xrunner

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #491 on: September 08, 2023, 12:10:25 am »
We will wait and see.  I predict there will be bugs and there will be outrage and there will be fangirls and there will be trolls and, well there will be pretty much the same as what happens when a company popular with the hobby consumer crowd releases a new technological iteration of their product.

I am sure it will be an OK product for the price.

Will it exceed it's grandad's thread of 191 pages - the ubiquitous DS1045Z? Only time will tell.  :popcorn:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #492 on: September 08, 2023, 12:21:00 am »
I am sure it will be an OK product for the price.

You KNOW it's going to sell.

Probably as fast as Rigol can manufacture them.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #493 on: September 08, 2023, 12:22:44 am »
I predict there will be bugs and there will be outrage and there will be fangirls and there will be trolls and, well there will be pretty much the same as what happens when a company popular with the hobby consumer crowd releases a new technological iteration of their product.

I predict all out war with the Siglent fanboys.

 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #494 on: September 08, 2023, 01:03:37 am »
I predict all out war with the Siglent fanboys.

They're already in here muttering under their breath about how this is just a toy that people will play with before going back to a Siglent to get some work done.
 
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Online tautech

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #495 on: September 08, 2023, 01:34:05 am »
Nope, sorry, haven't even started shooting it yet.
Good, then we have time to remind you about internal reference frequencies and Project Yaigol.

Here, maybe like never before needs eyes wide open.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #496 on: September 08, 2023, 01:50:30 am »
Nope, sorry, haven't even started shooting it yet.
Good, then we have time to remind you about internal reference frequencies and Project Yaigol.

Here, maybe like never before needs eyes wide open.

Also: Be sure to count the capacitors and make sure they're all there.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #497 on: September 08, 2023, 03:13:09 am »
Nope, sorry, haven't even started shooting it yet.
Good, then we have time to remind you about internal reference frequencies and Project Yaigol.

What did I miss?  :-//
 

Offline EEVblog

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« Last Edit: September 08, 2023, 03:31:10 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline sebyon

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Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #499 on: September 08, 2023, 03:30:37 am »
Oh boy 70 C on a thermocouple is not good. That chip would have been easily over 100 C.
 


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