...
At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).
Except you wouldn't buy the 814, you'd buy the €399 804 and hack it into an 814.
...
And he would buy the € 386.10 SDS1104X-E and hack it into an SDS1204X-E
All noise measurements should be done at 1mV/div. 200uV and 500uV/div are software magnifications. Front end does only 1mV/div in hardware, unlike, for instance, SD2000X HD that have actual 500uV/div range.
For the SD card Dave dumped, it really looks to me like a bog-standard Android system image.
One that has not been optimized, and is, uh, quite "vanilla", indicating that with some systems integration work, the boot-up time could be shortened significantly, for example. I wonder how receptive Rigol would be towards such suggestions?
(It really depends on whether they used some external team to cobble something together for them, or whether they set up their own team that is still getting up to speed on how to optimize Android for appliance use. I'm really hoping for the latter, because that means future updates could be really nice for users, also showing how to leverage their chosen hacker-friendly stance for actually creating a better end product. Time will tell.)
All noise measurements should be done at 1mV/div. 200uV and 500uV/div are software magnifications. Front end does only 1mV/div in hardware, unlike, for instance, SD2000X HD that have actual 500uV/div range.
Dave has obtained that value (18 uV) with those settings: 1mV/div, 1ms, BW filter, 50ohm input. Without 50 ohm the noise increase at 42-43. With HDO1000 I have obtained the same values putting a 50 ohm terminator on input of the scope.
I am curious what AC RMS value you obtain with SD2000X HD with the same parameters.
Maybe Tautech can post AC RMS value for SDS 1000X HD with the same parameters.
I don't think Siglent is working on any ASICs, and without them? Not gonna happen at this price point.I tend to agree.Same here!! Taking on an ASIC development involving a custom relative High Speed and Resolution ADC is a huge undertaking, both risk and financial-wise.
It took Rigol many years and two or three iterations to get it right, eg. The MSO5000 series was ASIC-based but quite noisy.
I could be wrong but it seems they started work on the ASIC after the DS1054Z was launched. That's how long it took them.Think we know where the 12 bit ADC design came from, and Rigol hedged their bets by licensing this IP
Where? Surely they don't need to license an ADC - it's a well-known tech.
But make a note that when you enable 20 MHz BW on Rigol it enables lowpass filtering in software.
That is equivalent of enabling ERES on Siglent, which Siglent does not do automatically.
If we enable appropriate ERES then we get 17-18uV at 50Ω, and 29-30 at 1 MΩ.
Make note that Siglent has less noise at higher frequencies and Rigol a bit less at low frequencies.
It was around 22uV Stdev (AC RMS) with those settings at 50 Ω, at 1MΩ around 32 uV Stdev.
But make a note that when you enable 20 MHz BW on Rigol it enables lowpass filtering in software.
That is equivalent of enabling ERES on Siglent, which Siglent does not do automatically.
If we enable appropriate ERES then we get 17-18uV at 50Ω, and 29-30 at 1 MΩ.
Make note that Siglent has less noise at higher frequencies and Rigol a bit less at low frequencies.
...
At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).
Except you wouldn't buy the 814, you'd buy the €399 804 and hack it into an 814.
...
And he would buy the € 386.10 SDS1104X-E and hack it into an SDS1204X-E
The DHO804 might be hackable to 250Mhz. Time will tell...
...
At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).
Except you wouldn't buy the 814, you'd buy the €399 804 and hack it into an 814.
...
And he would buy the € 386.10 SDS1104X-E and hack it into an SDS1204X-E
The DHO804 might be hackable to 250Mhz. Time will tell...
For the SD card Dave dumped, it really looks to me like a bog-standard Android system image.
One that has not been optimized, and is, uh, quite "vanilla", indicating that with some systems integration work, the boot-up time could be shortened significantly, for example. I wonder how receptive Rigol would be towards such suggestions?
(It really depends on whether they used some external team to cobble something together for them, or whether they set up their own team that is still getting up to speed on how to optimize Android for appliance use. I'm really hoping for the latter, because that means future updates could be really nice for users, also showing how to leverage their chosen hacker-friendly stance for actually creating a better end product. Time will tell.)How realistic do you think it would be for an external team to cobble together a low-power standby mode? Put the RK3399 into a low power mode, turn off the screen and a low power state for the Xilinx FPGA? Obviously keeping the RAM state. Then "instant on" if any button is pressed?
Presumably Android has a lot of [power state and sleep stuff] built-in as every tablet & smartphone needs to preserve battery life?
Then rather put another hundred on it for a DHO914.
The SDS1104X-E is still not a bad option for € 386.10 (net).
If 8-bit is really "dead", maybe these devices will become cheaper.
more experience with Linux-based integration than Android, the difference being in the userspace, but I really don't see why the bootup should take 45 seconds
...
At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).
Except you wouldn't buy the 814, you'd buy the €399 804 and hack it into an 814.
...
And he would buy the € 386.10 SDS1104X-E and hack it into an SDS1204X-E
The DHO804 might be hackable to 250Mhz. Time will tell...
Apart from 45 seconds boot time not really being a problem (like Martin says, you need to achieve working temp) scope is not a phone or a video game. There is significant circuitry to be initialized, FPGA loaded, self test, calibrations, verifications...
So one should not be surprised that it's takes years to initially develop such an ADC, and more years to get it right!!
The folks that can do this are few and likely not employed by Rigol, nor Siglent for that matter, they are good enough to write their own paychecks, and worth every penny
It was around 22uV Stdev (AC RMS) with those settings at 50 Ω, at 1MΩ around 32 uV Stdev.
But make a note that when you enable 20 MHz BW on Rigol it enables lowpass filtering in software.
That is equivalent of enabling ERES on Siglent, which Siglent does not do automatically.
If we enable appropriate ERES then we get 17-18uV at 50Ω, and 29-30 at 1 MΩ.
Make note that Siglent has less noise at higher frequencies and Rigol a bit less at low frequencies.
This make me interested about 1000X HD. I'm curious enough to wait for it ...
Apart from 45 seconds boot time not really being a problem (like Martin says, you need to achieve working temp) scope is not a phone or a video game. There is significant circuitry to be initialized, FPGA loaded, self test, calibrations, verifications...
It takes 54 seconds from pressing the power button until the splash screen disappears.
It takes about 8 seconds after switching on until only the splash screen appears.
This is a long time. SDS1104X-E is ready after about 25 seconds afair.
And you don't always want to measure, especially in the beginning you might just want to look up an option in the menu or check the version etc..
You can argue that it doesn't bother you, but it's not a plus, just like the howling fan isn't desirable.
The DHO804 might be hackable to 250Mhz. Time will tell...
not with 312.5 MSp/s
Apart from 45 seconds boot time not really being a problem (like Martin says, you need to achieve working temp) scope is not a phone or a video game. There is significant circuitry to be initialized, FPGA loaded, self test, calibrations, verifications...
I myself have much more experience with Linux-based integration than Android, the difference being in the userspace, but I really don't see why the bootup should take 45 seconds. Something like 15 seconds would sound more reasonable for this hardware, although the SD card could be a bottleneck here.
How realistic do you think it would be for an external team to cobble together a low-power standby mode? Put the RK3399 into a low power mode, turn off the screen and a low power state for the Xilinx FPGA? Obviously keeping the RAM state. Then "instant on" if any button is pressed?
Sleep modes for the RK3399 are supported by the kernel already, so it's really only a matter of the FPGA. The FPGA is a black box; I don't know if they even implemented software power control for it. Anything else is doable. Even hibernation (suspend to disk), although I wouldn't want to do that with an SD-card based storage.
Thus, the answer is: it depends on how they control the power to the FPGA. If the control is sane-ish, very realistic. If there is no software power control, and the FPGA circuits are designed to be powered whenever the power is on, then it won't work.
Nah, that's just normal Android boot time.
The difference is that any "normal" Android device can go into sleep/suspend/standby mode, so you usually don't have to boot it.
That is just missing here.