Author Topic: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown  (Read 295483 times)

0 Members and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline mawyatt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3377
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #425 on: September 06, 2023, 11:58:54 pm »

Quote
Most ICs are rated for maximum junction temperature of 125C

That´s mostly MIL-Spec, common ICs are rated for 85°C.
In both cases, this does not mean that they remain in the specifications(keyword derating) up to these temperatures, they just do not go defective until then.
I may be overly cautious, but in general I would not underestimate the issue.

Note we indicated Junction Temperature, the only temperature that really matters as this is what the semiconductor experiences, not the case or ambient temperature.  If you check many IC sources they are rated above 85C and these are commercial chips, not all military. Check TI and AD ADCs, many are rated higher than 85C, with some junction temperatures ratings at 150C max. The automotive range includes 125C case temperature as well.

Agree that operating at a higher chip junction temperature may reduce the chip life, or degrade performance, but experience has shown that the classic old school Mil Standard (38510 ?) estimates of semiconductor life based upon junction temperature is way over rated (think there has been considerable evidence of this, and maybe a better model has been developed).

Best
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 
The following users thanked this post: Performa01, egonotto

Offline mawyatt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3377
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #426 on: September 07, 2023, 12:12:59 am »
Dave measured the power consumption and it is fairly high. Also there is likely almost no variation in power consumption so a fixed speed fan makes a lot of sense as there will be no advantage to have a temperature controlled fan.

Of course there is. In winter, or if I have the aircon on? Maybe no need for a fan!

Exactly why we suggested measuring the heat sink temp with and without fan ON in a "office environment". Seems one might be able to operate without the fan if the heatsink temp doesn't rise too much. Maybe Dave is listening ::)

Best
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6566
  • Country: ca
  • Non-expert
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #427 on: September 07, 2023, 12:44:33 am »
Am I the only one who gets heebie-jeebies because of the SD card? I assume this is same for the 800/900 family. What about the 1000 family?

Its a name brand SD card (Lexar 633x 32GB), running android, so no, not if its properly managed.
The main downside is less data lanes, a high end microSD might be 100-300MB/s but a good eMMC can be 400MB/s.

You can watch the HDO1000/4000 teardown video and see there is no SD card in that one.
Its using Foresee FEMDNN008G-08A39 eMMC ~$3. It does have power loss protection.

I've been burned by failed NAND many times, although not eMMC, yet it clearly happens.
Profile -> Modify profile -> Look and Layout ->  Don't show users' signatures
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone, Warhawk

Offline mawyatt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3377
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #428 on: September 07, 2023, 12:51:14 am »
It is very interesting with which oscilloscope Siglent will answer this challenge. And when.
I don't think Siglent is working on any ASICs, and without them? Not gonna happen at this price point.

I tend to agree.

Same here!! Taking on an ASIC development involving a custom relative High Speed and Resolution ADC is a huge undertaking, both risk and financial-wise. Think we know where the 12 bit ADC design came from, and Rigol hedged their bets by licensing this IP, rather than attempting to "roll their own" (maybe learned something from 1st custom ADC go around), altho not going to discuss such.


Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Offline Dacian

  • Contributor
  • !
  • Posts: 40
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #429 on: September 07, 2023, 02:59:47 am »
Not thinking of a variable speed here, just On or Off.

Of course there is. In winter, or if I have the aircon on? Maybe no need for a fan!

The power consumption is very high (surprisingly high) about 2x that of the DS1054z
A fan is just needed no matter the ambient temperature.
Yes you can have a fan working hard then turn OFF for maybe a minute or two but it is just better to have a constant lower speed fan contentiously working then high speed then off for small amounts of time.
It is not like a laptop that uses maybe same 35W under full load but only 5W at idle where fan can be OFF as long as you just read a forum page.
The oscilloscope is likely-maybe just a range of 30 to 35W so there is no very low idle power to worth considering a fan speed control (including ON/OFF).
It will also be more detrimental for longevity to have tens of thermal cycles per hour where say you have a 20C delta on the heat sink.

So due to the basically constant 35W consumption of this oscilloscope the fixed speed fan is the best solution and the reason they chose it.
If you want a lower noise unit then adding a larger external fan (also fixed speed) is the only reasonable solution.
 

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6866
  • Country: hr
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #430 on: September 07, 2023, 05:35:22 am »
It is very interesting with which oscilloscope Siglent will answer this challenge. And when.
I don't think Siglent is working on any ASICs, and without them? Not gonna happen at this price point.

I tend to agree.

They do develop some of their own chips..
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg4642900/#msg4642900
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16746
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #431 on: September 07, 2023, 06:18:58 am »
I don't think Siglent is working on any ASICs, and without them? Not gonna happen at this price point.
I tend to agree.
Same here!! Taking on an ASIC development involving a custom relative High Speed and Resolution ADC is a huge undertaking, both risk and financial-wise.

It took Rigol many years and two or three iterations to get it right, eg. The MSO5000 series was ASIC-based but quite noisy.

I could be wrong but it seems they started work on the ASIC after the DS1054Z was  launched. That's how long it took them.

Think we know where the 12 bit ADC design came from, and Rigol hedged their bets by licensing this IP

Where? Surely they don't need to license an ADC - it's a well-known tech.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16746
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #432 on: September 07, 2023, 06:32:17 am »
So due to the basically constant 35W consumption of this oscilloscope

Yeah, I guess that is quite high...

There must be a lot of convection going on as well. That little fan isn't going to move that much air.
 

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6866
  • Country: hr
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #433 on: September 07, 2023, 06:39:25 am »

Where? Surely they don't need to license an ADC - it's a well-known tech.

It is not as simple as tinkering with an Arduino...
 

Online Nominal Animal

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6369
  • Country: fi
    • My home page and email address
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #434 on: September 07, 2023, 07:51:13 am »
Here are the partitions in the SD card image, RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.img:
If I might ask: what tools/techniques did you use to figure these offsets?
In this particular case, I didn't use binwalk; I used testdisk (but note that testdisk reports the offsets and sizes in sectors, 512 bytes in this case).
 
The following users thanked this post: mwb1100

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16746
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #435 on: September 07, 2023, 07:54:59 am »
Am I missing something or wrong? - why does it have such high noise for a 12-bit A/D converter - about 200 microvolts? the HDO series that came out last year seemed to have about 20 microvolts?

Where do you get those numbers?
 

Offline JohanH

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 633
  • Country: fi
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #436 on: September 07, 2023, 08:04:44 am »
Here are the partitions in the SD card image, RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.img:
If I might ask: what tools/techniques did you use to figure these offsets?
In this particular case, I didn't use binwalk; I used testdisk (but note that testdisk reports the offsets and sizes in sectors, 512 bytes in this case).

partx is another useful linux command that can be used to automatically identify and create loop devices of partitions that it detects from a disk image file.

E.g. 
  partx -a -v ./disk_image.img
Show the created loop devices:
  losetup -a
Now you can mount each loop device to directories you have created:
  mount /dev/loop0p1 partition_1
  mount /dev/loop0p2 partition_2
  etc.
The devices can also be on loop1 etc. if loop0 is taken.
Afterwards umount the directories and then unset the loop devices with:
  partx -d -v /dev/loop0
« Last Edit: September 07, 2023, 08:59:58 am by JohanH »
 
The following users thanked this post: mwb1100

Offline faveri97

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 5
  • Country: cn
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #437 on: September 07, 2023, 08:12:24 am »
The poor noise performance without the termination resistors can be explained by the thermal noise of the 1 meg input resistance.
The 18uVacrms noise performance of DHO4000 series is measured with 50 ohm inputs. With external 50ohm termination resistors installed on my DHO914S, I measured noise levels of around 21uVacrms (200uV/div) for all four channels, which is slightly worse than the DHO4000 series under the same configuration.
That's still much better than the ~175uVacrms noise level of the MSO5000 series.
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, Fungus, ch_scr, dreamcat4

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6866
  • Country: hr
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #438 on: September 07, 2023, 08:28:00 am »
All noise measurements should be done at 1mV/div. 200uV and 500uV/div are software magnifications. Front end does only 1mV/div in hardware, unlike, for instance, SD2000X HD that have actual 500uV/div range.
 

Offline egonotto

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 764
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #439 on: September 07, 2023, 08:48:39 am »
Hello,

I have a suspicion that the Rigol 12 Bit Scopes are processing the data if possible. This can be seen from the fact that the wave files do not contain 12 but already 16 bit values.
That's why you should make sure that the highest sampling rate is forced when measuring, so that hopefully you get the raw data.
Unfortunately, my request for data has not yet been successful:

"Can someone please post two wavefile in bin format with the following settings:
1 mV/div 0.05 ms/div 1 Mpts and
1 V/div 0.05 ms/div 1 Mpts.
And accompanying screenshots.
Each with an open input and full bandwidth.

It is important that 1.25 GSa/s is used so that the device cannot sugarcoat the data.

If it's not too much work, corresponding files with 20 MHz bandwidth would be very nice."

Best regards
egonotto
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, TurboTom

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16746
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #440 on: September 07, 2023, 09:20:56 am »
unlike, for instance, SD2000X HD that have actual 500uV/div range.

...and only costs 8x as much.
 

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6866
  • Country: hr
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #441 on: September 07, 2023, 09:45:59 am »
unlike, for instance, SD2000X HD that have actual 500uV/div range.

...and only costs 8x as much.

It cost 8x as much for 5X bandwidth, larger screen and lot more..

SDS1000X-E has it too.. If you want same price range.

I was explaining not comparing... But hey ....
 

Offline Warhawk

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 826
  • Country: 00
    • Personal resume
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #442 on: September 07, 2023, 10:25:40 am »
I somehow don't know what to think about it. It is a nice little scope. The 800 series is attractive but 1MPts/4ch is very low. I am wondering how practical the logic analyzer on the 900 series is. What I want from my next scope is the bode plot analyzer function. I wish the 1000 series had the AWG. I was considering Siglent 2k series (8bit) as it seems more refined. But this is a different price range... I am simply confused on what is going to be my 3rd scope  :-DD
I can imagine that I take one of these ultra-flat portable monitors, USB mouse and mount that little guy on the desk where it makes sense...
<end of thinking aloud>

Offline dreamcat4

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 495
  • Country: gb
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #443 on: September 07, 2023, 10:38:35 am »
I somehow don't know what to think about it. It is a nice little scope... I wish the 1000 series had the AWG... I am simply confused on what is going to be my 3rd scope

Well it's a fair point that you are bringing up here. And I believe the correct answer should be: well, this puts you into a category of user(s) to wait for them to add missing features to 1000 series. For example, the AWG and mixed signal. So then an equivalent of what 900 is adding to the 800. But just up a tier.

However Rigol hasn't announced such products yet. I am just guessing based on "well it might be in development" and "well, it would entirely make a lot of sense".
 

Offline Aldo22

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 770
  • Country: ch
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #444 on: September 07, 2023, 11:10:39 am »
I know this is one of those silly questions.... but I'll try anyway.  :palm:

At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).
The DHO814 has somewhat better specs, but specs aren't everything, otherwise I might buy Hantek.  ;)
If you are not so much into touchscreens, which is the better buy?
Is it too early to tell?
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16746
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #445 on: September 07, 2023, 11:29:18 am »
I know this is one of those silly questions.... but I'll try anyway.  :palm:

At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).

Except you wouldn't buy the 814, you'd buy the €399 804 and hack it into an 814.

If you are not so much into touchscreens, which is the better buy?

Dave's opinion: "8-bit is dead"

PS: I wasn't into touch screens until I owned one. Now the idea of using a stupid twisty knob for navigation seems ridiculous to me.
 
The following users thanked this post: Aldo22

Online Nominal Animal

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6369
  • Country: fi
    • My home page and email address
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #446 on: September 07, 2023, 11:41:55 am »
partx is another useful linux command that can be used to automatically identify and create loop devices of partitions that it detects from a disk image file.
Agreed.  There are dozens of tools in Linux and BSD to examine these things.  The first one I tend to do is strings file | less, to see if suspicious strings do pop up; both in images and executables.  (Actually, no, the very first one is always file file to see if the file fingerprint is recognized by the standard magic database, but that should be obvious.)

Note that the mount command can create (and then automatically delete) the loopback device, when using the -o loop option like I did.  For details, see man 8 mount, under Loop-device support heading, near the end of the man page.

For those who are not aware, loop devices are provided by the kernel in Linux and BSDs, which allow an user (with sufficient privileges) to synthesize a block device from an ordinary file.  The block device will support the same operations as all mass storage devices –– all block devices! ––, so one can easily mount a filesystem, or even a whole partition table and some/all of its filesystems.
The only trick is that if you want to create a new filesystem image, you should use e.g. dd if=/dev/zero of=file bs=blocksize count=blockcount to ensure storage is allocated for each byte of the image.  Most Linux and BSD filesystems support sparse files, where sections of the file may not exist, and simply read all zeroes; this way, a gigabyte-size file with just one nonzero byte at the end (or anywhere else) is usually just one allocation block long.  The dd command uses the zero character device to fill the file with binary zeroes.

Like I said, mount can do the loopback device setup and teardown automatically, or you can use the losetup command, or even do it yourself (see man 4 loop).  Other than the offset (if not at the beginning of the file) and possibly size (if not the complete file), no other details need to be specified, so the usage is very straightforward.  While I like to mount such files (images) read-only via -o ro, it is perfectly okay to mount them read-write, so that any changes will be reflected in the original file; but do remember to properly unmount the file/image, as the kernel may cache changes and only flush them to the underlying file at unmount time.  (The unmount command is, unsurprisingly, umount, and you can supply it with either the device, or the directory on top of which the media is mounted.)

For the SD card Dave dumped, it really looks to me like a bog-standard Android system image.
One that has not been optimized, and is, uh, quite "vanilla", indicating that with some systems integration work, the boot-up time could be shortened significantly, for example.  I wonder how receptive Rigol would be towards such suggestions?
(It really depends on whether they used some external team to cobble something together for them, or whether they set up their own team that is still getting up to speed on how to optimize Android for appliance use.  I'm really hoping for the latter, because that means future updates could be really nice for users, also showing how to leverage their chosen hacker-friendly stance for actually creating a better end product.  Time will tell.)
 

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6866
  • Country: hr
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #447 on: September 07, 2023, 11:46:35 am »
I know this is one of those silly questions.... but I'll try anyway.  :palm:

At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).
The DHO814 has somewhat better specs, but specs aren't everything, otherwise I might buy Hantek.  ;)
If you are not so much into touchscreens, which is the better buy?
Is it too early to tell?

DHO814 has somewhat better specs in some things... I would wait a bit to see if 800 is good for you . 1MPoint with 4 ch makes it worse than DS1000Z for some uses...
Maybe 900 is lowest model that is actually better than DS1000Z in every respect. SDS1000X-E has Bode plot, better minimum sampling rate and some other things ..

It is not so easy to proclaim clear winner. It depends of what you do. Try to make a list of what is important to you to try and clarify it...

Touch screen is great. Small screen makes it a bit worse but still useful.
 
The following users thanked this post: Aldo22

Offline Mortymore

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 454
  • Country: pt
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #448 on: September 07, 2023, 01:22:12 pm »
...
At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).

Except you wouldn't buy the 814, you'd buy the €399 804 and hack it into an 814.
...

And he would buy the € 386.10 SDS1104X-E and hack it into an SDS1204X-E

Decisions... decisions...
« Last Edit: September 07, 2023, 01:25:10 pm by Mortymore »
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone, Aldo22

Offline mawyatt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3377
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown
« Reply #449 on: September 07, 2023, 01:44:50 pm »
It is very interesting with which oscilloscope Siglent will answer this challenge. And when.
I don't think Siglent is working on any ASICs, and without them? Not gonna happen at this price point.

I tend to agree.

They do develop some of their own chips..
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg4642900/#msg4642900

Yes, this is an impressive front end design, likely in a SiGe BiCMOS process. Siglent may have had some "help" in designing this chip tho ;)

However, this is a different level of effort and cost than pulling off a moderately high speed/resolution ADC like we are discussing.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf