Scope : wait for new models ?

[Fungus]

edit : i already see in the movie it makes less noise :

If 'noise' is what you care most about then get the R&S. It's fanless.

Next: Figure out some other way to do serial decoding.

[thm_w]

get a CRO

OP already has a cro.

Proper ETS is always relevant.

But on the other hand indeed, OP has do really decide his BW requirements. If Digilent's 30MHz analog and 100MS/s (50MHz?) digital are enough then it has some killer features for the price: 2CH 14bit in, 2CH 14bit out, 16ch analyzer and 16-channel pattern generator (3.3V CMOS, 100MS/s) that suddenly got me all sweaty and wanting to buy the damn thing (so far I've used Arduinos for patterns).
Much more complex choice with Pico because they do not have >8bit MSO (do have >8bit 4ch). However reading the FFT thread - 8bit Pico seems to operate pretty much at theoretical limit so 2206B MSO at 559€ might do the trick (50MHz, 1GS/s, 32MS memory, 16ch digital 100 MHz (200 Mb/s) and >52dB SDFR @ 100kHz) ...depending on what OP means by audio. For example my good friend means gold vinyl needles made in Japan couple K€ a pop...

I don't feel its relevant, you can see Wuerstchenhund's posts with more knowledgeable opinions than me (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/modern-digital-scopes-real-time-sampling-or-equivalent-time-sampling/). Shahriar has likely mentioned a few times, but he is doing research level work, not hobbyist level.

Digilent is probably a great choice for audio work. If the budget is there, that and a 1054Z would be good.

[JanJansen]

The Siglent uses a lot of energy ?, i am trying to save the world, it dont works so i might buy the Siglent ( so much to compare ).

[JanJansen]

Thanks, i think i go for the Hameg, the build quality looks so much better.
I just have to save some money, and find a nice offer if they can give.

I still have 1 question :
Can i use the Function generator + patterngenerator + show input waveforms all at the same time together ?, does the function gen wave show besides the 2 input channels ?
if that is true i go for the Hameg for sure.

[rstofer]

User Manual HMO1202
http://www.ee.ic.ac.uk/pcheung/teaching/signals_scope/HMO1002.pdf
I didn't see this model at TEquipment - is it current?

Page 39 discusses the signal generator.  I wonder what I can do with a 4 bit arbitrary waveform?  OR, I wonder if I am reading that correctly - 10.2.3
The 50 kHz square wave limit is pretty much useless for me.  10 kHz Ramp?  Seriously?

In any event, it's a good idea to read the User Manual and the Specifications flyer when evaluating scopes.

[JanJansen]

I didn't see this model at TEquipment - is it current?

Do you mean they dont sell it because it is old already ?, what site do you mean exact ?

I wonder what I can do with a 4 bit arbitrary waveform?  OR, I wonder if I am reading that correctly - 10.2.3
The 50 kHz square wave limit is pretty much useless for me.  10 kHz Ramp?  Seriously?

I am busy with audio, i have no clue what to do with a frequency generator in the Megahertz domain, maybe you all make radios or something ?
The pattern generator i could use for triggering drum sounds / enveloppes, if it plays at very low speeds, then i dont need to add a microcontroller for creating drumsounds.

The frequency generator is settable with 0.1 Hz below 1K, very good for me for developing resonant filters,
if i could have original wave + breadboard output in 1 screen comparing i am happy, together with pattern generator for enveloppe generators.
I cannot realy see in the manual if it is all usable at the same time ?

[rstofer]

I didn't see this model at TEquipment - is it current?

Do you mean they dont sell it because it is old already ?, what site do you mean exact ?

http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=hmo1202

I wonder what I can do with a 4 bit arbitrary waveform?  OR, I wonder if I am reading that correctly - 10.2.3
The 50 kHz square wave limit is pretty much useless for me.  10 kHz Ramp?  Seriously?

I am busy with audio, i have no clue what to do with a frequency generator in the Megahertz domain, maybe you all make radios or something ?
The pattern generator i could use for triggering drum sounds / enveloppes, if it plays at very low speeds, then i dont need to add a microcontroller for creating drumsounds.

The frequency generator is settable with 0.1 Hz below 1K, very good for me for developing resonant filters,
if i could have original wave + breadboard output in 1 screen comparing i am happy, together with pattern generator for enveloppe generators.
I cannot realy see in the manual if it is all usable at the same time ?

There should be no relationship between the display and the signal generator.

[tautech]

They also have Siglent, what is the best choise from Siglent ?, do they also have that fan noise ?, is Siglent a better brand to buy then Rigol ?
This is gonna save me alot of money buying Rigol or Siglent.

edit : i already see in the movie it makes less noise :

If you want an inbuilt AWG then you need to select a SDS1000X + (Plus) model and they have 16 ch MSO capability too. These units all come with the Decode option free ATM.
In answer to your wonderings on use of the AWG at the same time, yes of course you can but the waveform is not displayed, you have to feed it into one of the channels if you want/need to see it.
The parameters on selecting a waveform are plain to understand and select using buttons and a multi-function control once within the Wavegen menu; type, frequency, offset, impedance and amplitude etc.

[JanJansen]

There should be no relationship between the display and the signal generator.

If you want an inbuilt AWG then you need to select a SDS1000X + (Plus) model and they have 16 ch MSO capability too. These units all come with the Decode option free ATM.
In answer to your wonderings on use of the AWG at the same time, yes of course you can but the waveform is not displayed, you have to feed it into one of the channels if you want/need to see it.

Ok, i was just guessing, still it would be handy some internal routing to a ( extra/virtual ) channel.

@ tautech : to bad the 16ch cable is not included for free.

Yes the Siglent is looking good also, only made in China makes me think twice,
what i see in the movies is the build quality of R&S is superior to others, made in EU.
The Rigol looks bad quality to me, i dont trust in the long term, i rather buy Siglent or even better, GW-instek made in Taiwan,
its about having cheap or expensive brand, i am very carefull with my stuff, if it breaks its not my fault, thats why i rather not buy cheap China brands,
it is very attractive, i have enough money for chinese brands already, one mouseclick away.

If you wanto send me a demo model for lending on your risk, maybe you can convince me as Siglent distributor.

[rstofer]

There should be no relationship between the display and the signal generator.

If you want an inbuilt AWG then you need to select a SDS1000X + (Plus) model and they have 16 ch MSO capability too. These units all come with the Decode option free ATM.
In answer to your wonderings on use of the AWG at the same time, yes of course you can but the waveform is not displayed, you have to feed it into one of the channels if you want/need to see it.

Ok, i was just guessing, still it would be handy some internal routing to a ( extra/virtual ) channel.

It would take a real ADC and memory.  For all practical purposes, a channel.  Chances are one scope channel will be used looking at the signal anyway.  We often want to look at input and output from the DUT.

@ tautech : to bad the 16ch cable is not included for free.

Yes the Siglent is looking good also, only made in China makes me think twice,
what i see in the movies is the build quality of R&S is superior to others, made in EU.
The Rigol looks bad quality to me, i dont trust in the long term, i rather buy Siglent or even better, GW-instek made in Taiwan,
its about having cheap or expensive brand, i am very carefull with my stuff, if it breaks its not my fault, thats why i rather not buy cheap China brands,
it is very attractive, i have enough money for chinese brands already, one mouseclick away.

If you wanto send me a demo model for lending on your risk, maybe you can convince me as Siglent distributor.

The "no China" thing takes a lot of good scopes off the table.  Most of them are made there, regardless of how they are branded.  I don't see any particular advantage to Taiwan vs China.

If I were you, I certainly wouldn't buy the Rigol.  Siglent is clearly a better option for you.  R&S is also a good possibility.  Aren't they made in Euorpe somewhere?

[saturation]

Just buy local to you in NL so you can try and return it easily if you don't like it regardless of where it made.  Even if cheaper if bought in the USA or China it can be a problem to return it for whatever reason, including warranty repair. 

.. only made in China makes me think twice,
.. build quality made in EU.
.. GW-instek made in Taiwan,

[Fungus]

R&S is also a good possibility.  Aren't they made in Euorpe somewhere?

Yes.

(Designed in Germany, built in Poland in R&S-owned factory IIRC)

[tautech]

There should be no relationship between the display and the signal generator.

If you want an inbuilt AWG then you need to select a SDS1000X + (Plus) model and they have 16 ch MSO capability too. These units all come with the Decode option free ATM.
In answer to your wonderings on use of the AWG at the same time, yes of course you can but the waveform is not displayed, you have to feed it into one of the channels if you want/need to see it.

Ok, i was just guessing, still it would be handy some internal routing to a ( extra/virtual ) channel.

@ tautech : to bad the 16ch cable is not included for free.

Yes the Siglent is looking good also, only made in China makes me think twice,
what i see in the movies is the build quality of R&S is superior to others, made in EU.
The Rigol looks bad quality to me, i dont trust in the long term, i rather buy Siglent or even better, GW-instek made in Taiwan,
its about having cheap or expensive brand, i am very carefull with my stuff, if it breaks its not my fault, thats why i rather not buy cheap China brands,
it is very attractive, i have enough money for chinese brands already, one mouseclick away.

If you wanto send me a demo model for lending on your risk, maybe you can convince me as Siglent distributor.

I haven't sold lots of 1000X but all my buyers have been pleased with them and as far as reliability, I've not had any problems with them and with Siglent in general, all but a very few with older/lesser models that all have been solved with their 3 year warranty.

Look, the world is a small place these days and for some years all manner of goods have been assembled in countries other than where the OEM is based. This is true of European brands too. A few years ago neither of us would've have bought stuff from Asia or the lesser EU countries...........today is much different.

As far as "try before you buy" all I can offer (I only sell locally) is to contact the resellers listed on the Siglent website 'How to buy": http://www.siglenteu.com/howtobuy.aspx
There may be other sellers close to you that have a demo unit and you could ask the Siglent Hamburg office for advice.
info-eu@siglent.com

to bad the 16ch cable is not included for free.

Yep, it's not a cheap item and could be better constructed as it's just a SCSI cable and breakout box. 
Nico replaced the SPL1016 ribbon SCSI cable with a much more flexible round SCSI cable for the SDS2204 that he had and we've asked Siglent to supply a better cable. They have been superseded on the SDS2000X series with a cable that's split into two 8 ch with longer and more flexible "tails" like this:


http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-fjxx.aspx?fjid=1542&id=1488&tid=1&T=2

[JanJansen]

Ok, not all China is bad, they have this reputation, India reputation is even worse i think.

Does Siglent fix all theyr bugs like Rigol has done ?

The R&S/Hameg has got HD mode ( 16 bit ), does Rigol and Siglent has this also ?

[tautech]

The R&S/Hameg has got HD mode ( 16 bit ), does Rigol and Siglent has this also ?

The SDS1000X have a Eres (Hi Res) mode in which the trace is somewhat less bright, especially in screenshots but you can get an idea of what it looks like in this image from this post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1011033/#msg1011033

Note: Dot mode, not Vectors.

[rstofer]

Ok, not all China is bad, they have this reputation, India reputation is even worse i think.

Does Siglent fix all theyr bugs like Rigol has done ?

The R&S/Hameg has got HD mode ( 16 bit ), does Rigol and Siglent has this also ?

Which model are you talking about?

If the ADC is only 8 bits, why have a screen with a bazillion pixels?  Have you checked the datasheet?  Even my high resolution computer displays only have about 2000 pixels vertical.  65536 pixels?  Whatever for?

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTO2000_dat-sw_en_3607-2684-22_v0400.pdf

Without having to use a dictionary to figure out what R&S is talking about, the Vertical Resolution is 8 bits.  With some kind of decimation or an add-on kit will get 16 bit resolution but the absolute Effective Number of Bits is > 7.0

I suspect the scope (RTO2002) is well over $30k but I can't find the real price.  It tends toward Price On Application!

It's pretty hard to compare a $400 scope against a $30K+ scope.  Of course the more costly scope has better specs!

[nctnico]

Does Siglent fix all theyr bugs like Rigol has done ?

If you want bugs fixed quickly then Rigol and Siglent are NOT a good choice.
I'm also not convinced by the build quality of Hameg HMO1000 series. In Dave's video I can spot a few problems off the bat: BNCs not bolted to the chassis so they will break from the PCB at some point. Also the main PCB is mounted in the wrong orientation without proper support which makes it flex due to vibrations (setting it on a desk for example) a lot more than a PCB which is mounted parallel to the front like in the GW Instek. BTW Dave seems to a prototype scope from GW Instek because in my GDS2204E there is only one PCB containing the digital and analog parts.

[lrvk]

Don't be stuck in the spec sheet, it does not say much about the actual performance of an instrument.

On a sheet, a Rigol 2072 and Hameg HMO3000 might have similar features for protocol decoders. But then you start your day and weirdness kicks in.

it is really important to trust your instrument if you are doing any design / firmware work with SPI / I2C / CAN, you can spend an order of magnitude more time without a good tool, pain in the ass to hand-decode or download waveforms.

[rstofer]

PisoScope has some nice 16bit scopes at low cost, but the so called low cost is still $1150+.

Sure, the 4000 series has 12 bits or even 16 bits BUT...
The 12 bit version goes to 20 MHz and the 16  bit version goes to 5 MHz.  Neither interest me...
Their faster scopes tend to have 8 bits.

In the end, I view the scope as a qualitative instrument, not quantitative.  Yes, the measurements are nice but there may be more accurate methods.
If the ADC is 8 bits, 0.4% is all I can assume and that's pushing things.  The idea of enhancing the resolution with mathematics doesn't sit all that well for me.  It's kind of like Equivalent Time Sampling; at best it is a joke!  The method only works on repetitive signals and that just doesn't happen in my corner of the sandbox.

The limit to resolution is the ADC and sampling rate versus width.  Everybody can make a fast 8 bit ADC but to get 16 bits at muiltiple GHz is pushing things.  Yes, some scopes can do it but they don't tend to sell for $400.

[Fungus]

I'm also not convinced by the build quality of Hameg HMO1000 series. In Dave's video I can spot a few problems off the bat: BNCs not bolted to the chassis so they will break from the PCB at some point.

Says who? Can you point us to somebody who managed to break theirs?

R&S are a company with a lot more experience than the GoodWill Instrument Company at this sort of thing. I think they know how to mount a BNC connector.

PS: Dave disagrees with you at 28:48 ... and most of the rest of the video. He really likes the build quality.

Also the main PCB is mounted in the wrong orientation without proper support which makes it flex due to vibrations (setting it on a desk for example)

It's not a huge board and it's supported on all 4 edges, so... 

... GW Instek

 

[nctnico]

I'm also not convinced by the build quality of Hameg HMO1000 series. In Dave's video I can spot a few problems off the bat: BNCs not bolted to the chassis so they will break from the PCB at some point.

Says who? Can you point us to somebody who managed to break theirs?

R&S are a company with a lot more experience than the GoodWill Instrument Company at this sort of thing. I think they know how to mount a BNC connector.

PS: Dave disagrees with you at 28:48 ... and most of the rest of the video. He really likes the build quality.

Did you ever see the difference in damage with a BNC bolted to the chassis or not when someone puts force on it? Or any other plug which is surface mounted? I have several times so I really don't care what Dave likes or not; I rather look beyond the badge and go with my own experience. The bottom line is that solder joints are not suitable to deal with mechanical stress and surface mounted connectors are the worst by far. The Hameg HMO1000 series is clearly designed to a price point which includes minimising the amount of labour to put a scope together and Hameg has cut some corners mechanically in order to achieve that. GW Instek isn't new at the test equipment market either and they do have the advantage of having simple access to cheap labour so they don't have to skimp on built quality. As I wrote before: GW Instek offers a warranty which ends 5 years after they stop producing the model. Show me a test equipment manufacturer with the same confidence in their products!

[rstofer]

5000 series does 1Gsps at high resolution.

I must be on the wrong page:
https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/5000/flexible-resolution-oscilloscope

It looks like the 5000 series will do 1GS/s at 8 bits, 500 MS/s at 12 bits and 62.5 MS/s at 16 bits.  These rates are further reduced as more channels are used:
https://www.picotech.com/download/datasheets/MM040.en-8.pdf

One thing the 5000 series has is a very large sample memory - 512 MS

That 5000 series has a lot of neat features!  It's a bit out of my range when the bottom line model is $1200 but that's not a bad price for all the capabilities.  I only priced the 60 MHz version.  As with the Analog Discovery, the need for a PC is not an issue for me!

[tautech]

Does Siglent fix all their bugs like Rigol has done ?

You're taking the piss, right ?

The fastest bug fix I recall was one I reported from a member here in a SDG2042X AWG and it was fixed in 2 weeks.
When we can identify a bug that can be reproduced at the factory it's normally always fixed in the next FW release.

TBH Siglent products are much better than even 12 months ago in relation to bugs at new product release.
For their scopes, all the X series (SDS1kX and 2kX) use a very similar UI with only some different functionality and features between the 2 series. This has helped both series development, usually with 2 lots of FW being released within days to fix the same problems in both series.

All modern DSO's have some shortcomings, some are substandard specs, some are bugs but the most important feature must and must always be: basic functionality must be right; that is there shouldn't be a need for FW to fix bad design.

[nctnico]

Does Siglent fix all their bugs like Rigol has done ?

You're taking the piss, right ?

The fastest bug fix I recall was one I reported from a member here in a SDG2042X AWG and it was fixed in 2 weeks.
When we can identify a bug that can be reproduced at the factory it's normally always fixed in the next FW release.

With Siglent that varies greatly between the various products. It seems their signal generator and spectrum analyser department are up to speed at the moment but when it comes to oscilloscopes their update cycles are slow (around twice a year) even though the bugs a severe.

All modern DSO's have some shortcomings, some are substandard specs, some are bugs but the most important feature must and must always be: basic functionality must be right

I have to disagree: an oscilloscope should deliver it's specifications out of the box and if not it has to be fixed within a few weeks at most. Not years! Both Rigol and Siglent release oscilloscopes way before the firmware is at an acceptable level and need several years (>3) to make the firmware work at a level it matches the specifications.

[Fungus]

All modern DSO's have some shortcomings, some are substandard specs, some are bugs but the most important feature must and must always be: basic functionality must be right

I have to disagree: an oscilloscope should deliver it's specifications out of the box and if not it has to be fixed within a few weeks at most. Not years! Both Rigol and Siglent release oscilloscopes way before the firmware is at an acceptable level and need several years (>3) to make the firmware work at a level it matches the specifications.

And... you have that option! You just need to pay extra for it.

Other people are prepared to accept 99% functionality if they can get their 'scopes for a quarter of the price and all the basics are working (wiggly lines appear on screen nicely, there's enough channels+and bandwidth).

That's what you're failing to see/accept here.

Some forum members project an image that DS1054Z owners are clueless nincompoops who don't appreciate the fine things in life like they do. It simply isn't true. They just need something that's good bang per buck, does the job adequately and won't break the bank.