Author Topic: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X  (Read 400618 times)

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Online Mortymore

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1725 on: April 30, 2024, 09:16:56 am »
I would be more concern about ideal temperature inside the SDM, and calibration affected by that,  if the fan was temperature controlled.

Since it's not, the temperature inside the SDM will always be different in Norway and in Brasil, not to mention along seasons, that can have an high temperature and humidity differential depending on location.

The 3045 has no fan, so during operation there will be areas inside the meter with differences in temperature, wile 3055 and 3056 with the fan blowing will even those temperatures inside the case. If the fan blows faster or slower, I assume that it would be important if some component could produce a great amount of heat, compared to the rest of the board/components, and since the SDM it's not a power device, like an electronic load or power supply, I don't see that much temperature difference happening.

So, my interpretation is, "the fan blows".  I'm no expert by all means, but this is just common sense to me.

Yes, inside a proper lab the room temperature would be more stable and regular, but I assume we are considering here the amateur/hobby lab/home.

Just my 2 cents

Offline rolfdegen

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1726 on: April 30, 2024, 09:54:56 am »
I measured all night with the voltage reference of 2.5V and barely made any difference between the two meters (UNI-T UT181A & Siglen SDM3055). The measured values always fluctuate around 100uV. I measure the airflow temperature on the case fan. When switching on the SDM3055 the temperature was 23.8°C and after 2 hours the temperature was 25.8°C. The room temperature goes from 22.2°C to 22.7°C. The measurements values have not changed.

Digital temperature sensor at the fan output


Short term measurements


« Last Edit: April 30, 2024, 10:23:26 am by rolfdegen »
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Offline rolfdegen

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1727 on: April 30, 2024, 04:09:03 pm »
4 hours long time measurement with Fan and Fan mod

Fan (no mod): 4 hours airflow temperature 25.1°C.


Fan (mod): 4hours  airflow temperature 26.3°C.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2024, 08:42:38 pm by rolfdegen »
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Offline klausES

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1728 on: May 01, 2024, 01:51:35 am »
Hello.
The mere exchanging for a better fan alone was not enough for me.
My solution to the original fan that was too loud continued.
My focus was on the temperatures evenly whether summer or winter to keep value on the same value, which made a regulation necessary.

A little insight I meant
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdm-and-sdg-series-maximum-silent/msg2979466/#msg2979466
regards klaus. "Art is when you can't do it ... because if you can, it's not art"
 
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Offline rolfdegen

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1729 on: May 01, 2024, 09:06:07 am »
Hallo Klaus
Nice Fan project  :-+ Have you compared the DC measurements below < 2V before and after your fan mod. I was also thinking about a temperature-controlled fan. But I don't know if controlling the fan speed is better or worse for accurate measurements  :-//.   I noticed a small difference in my long-term measurements. But I couldn't take any measurements in the uV range because the smallest reference voltage source was 2.5V.
Another question about your fan mod. Does the fan blow air out of the case or inwards ?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 09:15:37 am by rolfdegen »
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Offline klausES

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1730 on: May 01, 2024, 10:34:15 am »
Back then, as it is with a new toy, I compared a lot, but I couldn't see any difference.

The fan presses outwards in the original.
Now you can think about whether Siglent has not worried at all, simply because so many do it or they saw themselves forced to do this,
Because with the suction side directly on a perforated plate, such a fan makes enormous flow noises.
You probably took the easier way ...

The better solution is always to be bubbled into the device, not to suck out of the device.
Sucking generates less mixture in the device because the flow through the existing buttonholes takes place and no direct flow of hotspots in the device allows.
In addition, the negative pressure and the possibility of filtering are not given. Dust is not an advantage in one device.

When the air is blown in, there are much better opportunities, but it requires a little more effort.
regards klaus. "Art is when you can't do it ... because if you can, it's not art"
 

Offline rolfdegen

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1731 on: May 01, 2024, 12:02:24 pm »
I'm happy with my simple conversion. But I won't install a fan control. I will also glue heat sinks to the two processors in the SDM3055. I didn't notice a big difference in my measurements either. When measuring with a reference voltage source (AD584KH) I only measured a +100uV difference after 4 hours. This is the maximum resolution of the SDM3055 in the measuring range of 20 volts.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 12:08:25 pm by rolfdegen »
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Offline rolfdegen

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1732 on: May 01, 2024, 12:15:01 pm »
You can use a 1.5V battery as a reference voltage source for a few hours of measurement time ? The battery idle voltage is constant and is not charged by the measuring device. Since I don't have a 1V or 2V reference voltage source, I thought of a 1.5V battery to test the measuring range at 2V.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 12:20:30 pm by rolfdegen »
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Online mawyatt

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1733 on: May 01, 2024, 03:01:14 pm »
Wouldn't recommend using a 1.5V cell as any sort of voltage reference, even short term. These have significant voltage TC, and likely highly sensitive to other environmental effects.

Also, seriously consider letting your new DMM operate for a significant time to allow component drift to stabilize before any recalibration attempts. We've accumulated enough time over a couple years (not continuous) to allow our SDM3065X to stabilize. Siglent utilized a standard unselected and aged unaged LM399 as the internal reference to keep cost down (Keysight and Keithley use selected aged references in their KS34465A and DMM6500 respectively). Not sure what reference Siglent utilizes in the SDM3055X, but likely not as good for stability short and long term as the LM399, so might be a good idea to let the 3055 stabilize over time.

Best,
« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 05:31:07 pm by mawyatt »
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Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1734 on: May 01, 2024, 03:23:45 pm »
Speaking of aging...
I now thought I would switch on my SDM3065X and leave it switched on.
Question: How long...
One week, two, one month?
And: With open or shorted inputs ?

Online mawyatt

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1735 on: May 01, 2024, 03:37:20 pm »
Don't think input condition matters much. Likely the longer the better up to a point, few months seems reasonable tho.

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Online KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1736 on: May 01, 2024, 03:43:40 pm »
I think I lucked out with my SDM3065X. Stability was awesome pretty quickly.
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Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1737 on: May 01, 2024, 03:48:44 pm »
Quote
Likely the longer the better up to a point, few months seems reasonable tho.
A few months..... :scared:
I would have thought one month would be a very long time. :D
Because in addition to the “positive” effect of the (apparently necessary) ageing of the reference, you have the side effect that all other components also age.
I don't know whether the positive effects outweigh the negative ones, such as the shortened life of the electrolytic capacitors.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 03:52:40 pm by Martin72 »
 

Online KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1738 on: May 01, 2024, 03:57:44 pm »
Has anybody torn these down to see what type of electrolytics these use? I assume/hope they went with longer life caps anyway.
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1739 on: May 01, 2024, 04:00:33 pm »
Things like a LM399 reference show the initial fast settling over the first 500 hours or so. That would be some 3 weeks to get that part reasonably stable. Other parts may take longer as they usually don't run at a similar high temperature. The humidity effect is anyway more like a hysteresis effect - turn the meter off for a few weeks and the humidity will get back in. Here settling would only be there if the meter is really kept on 24/7 or close to that. I don't thinks the electrolytic capacitors would be a big issue here. They should not run very hot or see high ripple current. Even if they go bad: as long as they are not leaking a replacement would relatively easy.
 

Online mawyatt

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1740 on: May 01, 2024, 04:04:45 pm »
Wouldn't worry about electrolytics today, they are pretty reliable.

Anyone have a modern quality electrolytic fail recently in a well designed instrument? We can't recall anything!

Recall that KS ages the select LM399 ~1000hrs, anyone know for sure?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/lm399-drift-tendency-with-age-(which-direction)/msg1213116/#msg1213116

See Dr Franks post #3 in link above, and #1 an #2.

Best,
« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 04:09:55 pm by mawyatt »
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Offline rolfdegen

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1741 on: May 01, 2024, 05:23:30 pm »
I think I lucked out with my SDM3065X. Stability was awesome pretty quickly.

I have an SDM3055 with modified fan (150 ohm resistance). The values after warming up for 1/2 hour also look good.
The measurement was taken after half an hour of warm-up time and voltage reference chip AD584KH.




« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 06:05:17 pm by rolfdegen »
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Offline rolfdegen

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1742 on: May 01, 2024, 05:51:59 pm »
Things like a LM399 reference show the initial fast settling over the first 500 hours or so. That would be some 3 weeks to get that part reasonably stable. Other parts may take longer as they usually don't run at a similar high temperature. The humidity effect is anyway more like a hysteresis effect - turn the meter off for a few weeks and the humidity will get back in. Here settling would only be there if the meter is really kept on 24/7 or close to that. I don't thinks the electrolytic capacitors would be a big issue here. They should not run very hot or see high ripple current. Even if they go bad: as long as they are not leaking a replacement would relatively easy.

The SDM3055 has a MAX6325 CSA as a reference chip. Link: https://www.analog.com/media/cn/technical-documentation/data-sheets/1700.pdf
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Offline Johnny B Good

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1743 on: May 01, 2024, 06:42:21 pm »
@rolfdegen

The problem with using a 1.5v alkaline cell (or even a cr2032 with a fixed potential divider using M ohm resistors) is their own tempco. I know this because these were two of the first things I'd tried when checking the excellent tempco specification of the SDM3065 I'd purchased way back in October 2021 after allowing it to clock up a couple of thousand hours to age its internal reference.

 In the end, I purchased a cheap AD584LH, fully aware that it too had a lousy (by voltnut standards) tempco. This can be stable enough given a constant room temperature. I never did get around to placing it in another constant temperature room whilst using my hobby room as a "variable temperature environmental test chamber" :phew: so this testing regime was rather flawed.

 However, the one thing I did discover was that this volt reference's tempco virtually cancelled the tempco of the cheap Owon XDM1041 I'd purchased a few months later as a convenient alternative to a pair of cheap (but surprisingly good) 9999 counts Mestek DM91A hand held DMMs.

 The Owon bench DMM offered an improvement over the hand helds' tempco performance, effectively sitting between that of the hand helds and the SDM3065. Not a bad trade off considering its order of magnitude reduction in power consumption over that of the SDM3065's 13W (and, incidentally, that of an SDL1020X-E). As a consequence, I've had it powered up continuously over the past couple of years, monitoring the EFC voltage of my MK II (G3RUH inspired design) GPSDO.

 With all that being said. I started using the 4.97844v, from a well aged 7805 fixed to the heat spreader inside my temperature stabilised (to within +/- 5mK of a 36.05 deg C set point) LPRO 101 based RFS used solely to feed a 5K 10 turn calibration pot, as a long term temperature stabilised reference.

 Checking my notes, I see I got readings of 4.98005 on 2022-03-27 followed by 4.97897v on 2022-09-16. To be honest, the 4.97844v reading was taken just now. However, ISTR my more recent, unrecorded, checks all showing a value of 4.978xx volts over the past 12 months or so suggesting a long term stability between my temperature stabilised 4.97844 voltage reference and the SDM3065 of just 0.01%. The only thing I can be reasonably sure of is that the SDM3065 more than meets its claimed tempco performance over its specified ambient temperature range of 18 to 28 deg C which was the sole reason in the first place for my purchasing it over its cheaper 5 1/2 digit cousin. I'd thought at that time that the extra digit was "overkill" for my perceived needs.

 In hindsight, I was proved ever so wrong in this assumption when I discovered that I could now detect lamp volt variations in tens of micro-volts due to variations of ambient temperature altering the internal thermal gradients within my well insulated LPRO 101. If I had decided "to cheap out" on the SDM3055, I wouldn't have been able to detect this effect or, at best, be left guessing about this small deficiency in the efficacy of my temperature stabilisation measures.

 As for the fixed speed cooling fan in the SDM3065, that, in view of its excellent tempco performance, seems an obvious measure to curtail the "FY6600 effect" (ie wild internal temperature excursions due to a virtual absence of any cooling airflow) and flatten any internal temperature gradients.

 The innards are going to track some 2 or 3 degrees above ambient reducing demands on the internal temperature compensation requirements (as well as minimising the variation between a cold power up and a stabilised calibration reached within just 5 minutes or so).

[EDIT 2024-05-02] I just noticed at around 1pm when I transferred the meter connection to the Vref/calibrate pot wiper volt stereo jack socket that the Vref was still showing yesterday's 4.97844v readings. This was after the meter had been powered up for just over an hour (I normally monitor the lamp voltage via the lamp/Xtal stereo jack - it's less boring than monitoring the Vref).

 Out of idle curiosity, I switched the meter off for about twenty minutes so I could check the cold to warmed up voltage reading drift. The initial reading was 4.97839v rapidly increasing to  4.97842v about half a minute later taking another 3 minutes to show  4.97843v /  4.97844v finally settling back on the  original 4.97844v some 4 minutes after that.

 This test merely confirmed my gut feeling that it only required a mercifully short 10 to 15 minutes of warm up time from cold power up to produce stable readings. Indeed, if the equivalent of 5.5 digit accuracy is all you initially require, then it easily exceeds this specification within half a minute of power up. :D

 A quieter replacement fan is likely to might prove to have a lower CFM rating but you can compensate for this if you're willing to modify the case to remove the restriction of the colander of small holes on each side with a suitably fan sized hole saw and fitting wire finger guards. This measure will reduce turbulence noise created by the colander of ventilation holes, increasing flow rate enough to allow a dropper resistor to be added with little to no penalty on the original fan's cooling efficacy.

 Obviously, this is a modification best left to the end of the three year warranty period (if you can hold out that long) so the best option whilst there's still some years of warranty cover at stake is simply replace the fan with a quieter, more efficient one. You can still opt to modify the case once the warranty has finally expired if so desired in order to maximise the benefit of your investment in the original replacement fan upgrade.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2024, 01:32:36 pm by Johnny B Good »
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Online mawyatt

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1744 on: May 01, 2024, 07:20:25 pm »

The SDM3055 has a MAX6325 CSA as a reference chip. Link: https://www.analog.com/media/cn/technical-documentation/data-sheets/1700.pdf

The MAX6325 has a long term drift of ~30ppm/1000Hr, whereas the LM399 has ~8ppm/1000Hr. This alone should be considered and allow the SDM3055 to "settle in" and stabilize in its' new home to help ensure repeatable measurements over time.

We've got 3 in-house DIY references based upon 2 LM399 and a LTZ1000 that have over 20KHrs we use to check for repeatable measurements. Also have a couple old 34401As (these have well seasoned LM399s) that likely have 50~100KHrs (don't know for sure) that are very repeatable over time.

These SDMs are fine instruments and need time to stabilize into their new environment. Check out the Metrology site for folks that are actually doing serious measurements with HP3458A and such and the extremes they go thru for those measurements. This isn't about speculation or hear say, these folks know what they are talking about and doing. You can learn a lot from those select few, I know we have :-+

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Offline rolfdegen

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1745 on: May 01, 2024, 07:46:43 pm »
I first wanted to buy a Uni-T UT8805E but then decided on the better SDM3055. The Uni-T UT8805E has not so good voltage reference chip MAX6225AESA+ with TEMPCO of 5.0 (ppm/°C).

There is an interesting review about the Uni-T-UT8805E on YouTube

« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 08:02:47 pm by rolfdegen »
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Online KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1746 on: May 01, 2024, 08:20:33 pm »
A quieter replacement fan is likely to have a lower CFM rating

Maybe. However, Noctua fans often have better CFM and better noise properties than the cheap fans they replace. It's easy enough to find the CFM ratings of the fans you're replacing if they're labeled.
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Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1747 on: May 01, 2024, 08:30:48 pm »
Hi,

I had also briefly toyed with the idea of replacing the fan.
But I've decided to put most of my devices in a rack, so it's hardly relevant any more or I'll have to rethink the issue of ventilation anyway.

 
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Offline rolfdegen

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1748 on: May 01, 2024, 09:45:19 pm »
Make fan noise quieter  :)

Video

« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 10:02:29 pm by rolfdegen »
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Offline Johnny B Good

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Re: Siglent Bench DMMs SDM3065X, SDM3055 and SDM3045X
« Reply #1749 on: May 02, 2024, 02:09:23 pm »
A quieter replacement fan is likely to have a lower CFM rating

Maybe. However, Noctua fans often have better CFM and better noise properties than the cheap fans they replace. It's easy enough to find the CFM ratings of the fans you're replacing if they're labeled.

 In hindsight, I have to agree with you on this point. :-[  Thanks for the "heads up". I've edited my post accordingly and added my observations on the stability and rapid warm up from cold power up of my own SDM3065 which I assume would be typical of most everyone else's SDM3065 bench DMMs.
John
 
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