Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Robert763]

I recently tried to use my Coline DC1500A digital SWR / power meter and found it wasn't working on VSWR  . Investigation showed that the reverse detection diode in the directional coupler was open circuit. I decided not to investigate further as the coupler is made from about 12mm copper tube soldered together including the connector shells. Distrubing this would almost certainly upset the thermal power sensor (DC to 1500 MHz) and I didn't want to loose that capability.
So I was quietly looking for either another DC1500A or similar wide-range insertion SWR meter.
I did consider a couple of Bird 43s that came with some slugs but the didn't cover the range I wanted and the slugs are expensive.
Then this popped up:

at <£200 BIN. It is the "single slug" 4304A model. This covers 25 MHz to 800 MHz and 5W to 500W with a single slug. You can't use other slugs though. With the nice old stye carry case, termaline load and looking unused it was a no brainer. The meter without case is £1700 new in the UK 

[tautech]

Same bloody problem I had with a Rigol SA: they did not want to do component repair, just swap the board at 80% of new cost or so. Of course this happened 1 month after the 2yr warranty expired.

I'll never touch that brand again 

Pretty normal these days as component level repair WILL affect accuracy and an instrument may no longer meet spec.

Put yourself in the OEM position where they try utmost to protect any reputation they might have for precision instrumentation with calibrated PCB replacement.

[wkb]

Same bloody problem I had with a Rigol SA: they did not want to do component repair, just swap the board at 80% of new cost or so. Of course this happened 1 month after the 2yr warranty expired.

I'll never touch that brand again 

Pretty normal these days as component level repair WILL affect accuracy and an instrument may no longer meet spec.

Put yourself in the OEM position where they try utmost to protect any reputation they might have for precision instrumentation with calibrated PCB replacement.

Pretty normal != acceptable.

Would you accept it if it was e.g. your car? You certainly would not..
As for reputation: now that is entirely shot in my book.

[Hydron]

Yes, I also love my Keithley 199's 


IMG_2421__Keithley_199_ACV_dB_test-2000pix.jpg

I even wrote a TestController driver for it.

Thanks for that btw - was a good starting point for my K617 driver (not yet done, will submit to HKJ when finished)

[tautech]

Same bloody problem I had with a Rigol SA: they did not want to do component repair, just swap the board at 80% of new cost or so. Of course this happened 1 month after the 2yr warranty expired.

I'll never touch that brand again 

Pretty normal these days as component level repair WILL affect accuracy and an instrument may no longer meet spec.

Put yourself in the OEM position where they try utmost to protect any reputation they might have for precision instrumentation with calibrated PCB replacement.

Pretty normal != acceptable.

Would you accept it if it was e.g. your car? You certainly would not..
As for reputation: now that is entirely shot in my book.

Automobiles just crawling compared to TE, even something operating at 10k RPM is only operating at 166 Hz !
Take EFI petrol or diesel (some call it common rail in diesel  ), and even multi squirt is still real low frequency to most other electronic systems.

WRT an analyzer, any RF component repair will wreck calibration as the calibration is stored in the digital PCB and SSA/SVA models as some example have 3 PCB's calibrated as a set which costs a good portion of the RRP of a new unit. The display, case and chassis make up only a small portion of the total cost, that's reality whether you or anyone thinks it's acceptable.
But you'd never know this unless you had specific experience or were an authorised service agent.

[tggzzz]

Same bloody problem I had with a Rigol SA: they did not want to do component repair, just swap the board at 80% of new cost or so. Of course this happened 1 month after the 2yr warranty expired.

How many pieces of TE have you fault-found and repaired? Especially SAs with SMD components?

How long did disassembly, finding the fault, repair, reassembly, re-calibration take? Then consider adding goods-in, goods-out, order payment/reconciliation and other administrivia tasks.

How much would you expect the technicians would be paid per hour?

How much would all that add up to?

My HP/Tek SAs, when new, cost about the same as a small house, i.e. >> a year's salary. Even Tek scopes such as a 465 cost around a year's salary. At that price, repair obviously made economic sense; not a finely balanced decision!

Modern TE is comparatively much cheaper, at which point replace-vs-repair is not a simple economic decision.

I'll never touch that brand again 

That might be reasonable, but not for your reason.

[wkb]

Actually I did repair multiple T&M instruments, incl SMD, incl RF, incl SAs.

But enough said, lets agree to disagree.

[Robert763]

Same bloody problem I had with a Rigol SA: they did not want to do component repair, just swap the board at 80% of new cost or so. Of course this happened 1 month after the 2yr warranty expired.

I'll never touch that brand again 

Pretty normal these days as component level repair WILL affect accuracy and an instrument may no longer meet spec.

Put yourself in the OEM position where they try utmost to protect any reputation they might have for precision instrumentation with calibrated PCB replacement.

Pretty normal != acceptable.

Would you accept it if it was e.g. your car? You certainly would not..
As for reputation: now that is entirely shot in my book.

Automobiles just crawling compared to TE, even something operating at 10k RPM is only operating at 166 Hz !
Take EFI petrol or diesel (some call it common rail in diesel  ), and even multi squirt is still real low frequency to most other electronic systems.

WRT an analyzer, any RF component repair will wreck calibration as the calibration is stored in the digital PCB and SSA/SVA models as some example have 3 PCB's calibrated as a set which costs a good portion of the RRP of a new unit. The display, case and chassis make up only a small portion of the total cost, that's reality whether you or anyone thinks it's acceptable.
But you'd never know this unless you had specific experience or were an authorised service agent.

True, BUT the calibration is automatic and thus cheap. Even if every potential repair location did not have the required equipment and software (IP can be an issue here) there is no technical reason why a service exchange arrangement could not be offerd (automotive industry offer this). For your example either a set of boards or an RF board and calibration file. Both HPAK and R&S have done this for decades.
The choice is purely down to economic benefit and the manufacturers choose what benefits them. I'm sure the fact that these are "professional" instruments has a bearing on this as it removes any obligation under consumer law.

Robert.

[Martin.M]

my new old friend is a Wayne Kerr 6425 

[Addicted2AnalogTek]

Same bloody problem I had with a Rigol SA: they did not want to do component repair, just swap the board at 80% of new cost or so. Of course this happened 1 month after the 2yr warranty expired.

I'll never touch that brand again 

Pretty normal these days as component level repair WILL affect accuracy and an instrument may no longer meet spec.

Put yourself in the OEM position where they try utmost to protect any reputation they might have for precision instrumentation with calibrated PCB replacement.

Pretty normal != acceptable.

Would you accept it if it was e.g. your car? You certainly would not..
As for reputation: now that is entirely shot in my book.

Not that my two cents is needed, but, with the lack of quality and care in regard to replacement parts for vehicles, I'd rather take my vehicle to a repair facility that is going to rebuild/repair/remanufacture my parts than one that's going to swap entire assemblies. I can't count how many times I've bought OEM new parts, reputable brand aftermarket new, and remanufactured vehicle parts that were defect. I recently had to start rebuilding my own brake calipers because a new OEM and also a Reman part both had sticking pistons.

The golden age of great manufacturing is out the window - where there's quality work, there's low profit margins, and EVERYTHING is about preserving those margins, even if you alienate your most intelligent and skilled customer base for the sake of PR and marketing. We're seeing this unfold in real time as manufacturers drop support to non-industrial customers, refuse repairs, and push you to discard old gear in favor of driving new production (purchasing brand new). It is counter-profitable for any company these days to encourage, perform, or support low-cost repairs that do not sell you any products that generate a profit off of more than a little labor. Additionally, the persons with the necessary diagnostic skills and efficient repair abilities are scarce and unwilling to subject themselves to corporate employment/wages and would rather own/operate their own businesses.  "The corporations" aren't interested in hiring highly skilled repair techs, anyway, as board repair is just not anywhere near as profitable as selling you a shiny new piece of _ gear with a 3-5 year designed service life that's got a nice, high profit margin.

[dxl]

Same bloody problem I had with a Rigol SA: they did not want to do component repair, just swap the board at 80% of new cost or so. Of course this happened 1 month after the 2yr warranty expired.

I'll never touch that brand again 

Pretty normal these days as component level repair WILL affect accuracy and an instrument may no longer meet spec.

Put yourself in the OEM position where they try utmost to protect any reputation they might have for precision instrumentation with calibrated PCB replacement.

If the repaired equipment doesn't meet the specs after repair your repair process is broken. There's also a reason why there is a specification verification & calibration after repair.

[tautech]

Same bloody problem I had with a Rigol SA: they did not want to do component repair, just swap the board at 80% of new cost or so. Of course this happened 1 month after the 2yr warranty expired.

I'll never touch that brand again 

Pretty normal these days as component level repair WILL affect accuracy and an instrument may no longer meet spec.

Put yourself in the OEM position where they try utmost to protect any reputation they might have for precision instrumentation with calibrated PCB replacement.

If the repaired equipment doesn't meet the specs after repair your repair process is broken.

Not necessarily.
Minor component variations can have an impact on the black magic of RF.
Anything replaced in the RF signal path can impact accuracy.

There's also a reason why there is a specification verification & calibration after repair.

Sure we can go through Performance verification post-repair to check if our work may have disturbed accuracy but as the modern instruments are mostly closed box calibration so adjustment can only be done at very specialized facilities that have access to the OEM calibration scripts and can write to correct the instruments calibration file.

If the changes to accuracy are minor we can possibly live with them and maybe add a sticker to the instrument of how much error to allow for.

I've not yet had the need to send instrument back to Siglent for recalibration, either from some aging drift or post-repair.

[m k]

For new module there's also a new bath tub curve, but maybe that's a nuance nowadays.

[aronake]

I saved 3 Fluke 732b from being sent to the dump. Supposed to not be working but change of tantalums have brought 2 back to life. The last is tripping RCD when plugged into power. I have identified the approximate area of the problem, and replacement components on its way. Quite confident I will get it working.

[Zucca]

... and you should sell me one of those for $100 shipped to US.

Thanks.

 

[TERRA Operative]

I'll take another one.

[RolandK]

Don't mess with customs for shipping outside EU.
If you want i can check them against some 3458a, calibrated against Hendrick's ADRmu reference maintenained at the PTB

[AVGresponding]

I saved 3 Fluke 732b from being sent to the dump. Supposed to not be working but change of tantalums have brought 2 back to life. The last is tripping RCD when plugged into power. I have identified the approximate area of the problem, and replacement components on its way. Quite confident I will get it working.

(Attachment Link)

Good grief... 

What kind of moron throws out instruments like that without checking if they can be repaired?

[factory]

I wouldn't call them a moron, that title belongs to those idiots at the dump I work at, they don't allow anyone to even take/buy redundant TE, broken & working it gets chucked out in the rain to get destroyed.

David

[aronake]

Don't mess with customs for shipping outside EU.
If you want i can check them against some 3458a, calibrated against Hendrick's ADRmu reference maintenained at the PTB

Thanks! But once confirmed stable and adjusted close to 10V, I will start having them rotated to the national standard lab for direct measurement against Josephson voltage standard. I already have once from before that is scheduled for a Josephson treatment mid January. Then it was a year since last time.

[aronake]

I saved 3 Fluke 732b from being sent to the dump. Supposed to not be working but change of tantalums have brought 2 back to life. The last is tripping RCD when plugged into power. I have identified the approximate area of the problem, and replacement components on its way. Quite confident I will get it working.

(Attachment Link)

Good grief... 

What kind of moron throws out instruments like that without checking if they can be repaired?

Yes, it may seem crazy, but the way companies value time and money is different than private people. In this case it was an inhouse calibration laboratory that was closed down to be outsourced, and these had been standing on a shelf for some years being broken. The option would be to try to find someone to repair them, which may work, then maybe get them sold, deal with accounting for this etc. And likely no employee has a KPI on doing these things. So what seems completely crazy may not be that crazy.

[aronake]

I wouldn't call them a moron, that title belongs to those idiots at the dump I work at, they don't allow anyone to even take/buy redundant TE, broken & working it gets chucked out in the rain to get destroyed.

David

This is terrible! And show the hypocrisy of environmental concern!

[aronake]

I wouldn't call them a moron, that title belongs to those idiots at the dump I work at, they don't allow anyone to even take/buy redundant TE, broken & working it gets chucked out in the rain to get destroyed.

David

This is terrible! And show the hypocrisy of environmental concern!

But can also be explained with things like legal liability, how it should be dealt with, lack of KPIs etc. But I would think most dumps these days take environment very serioulsy and the best thing they could do then would be to eliminate waste and get things repaired.

[factory]

I wouldn't call them a moron, that title belongs to those idiots at the dump I work at, they don't allow anyone to even take/buy redundant TE, broken & working it gets chucked out in the rain to get destroyed.

David

This is terrible! And show the hypocrisy of environmental concern!

But can also be explained with things like legal liability, how it should be dealt with, lack of KPIs etc. But I would think most dumps these days take environment very serioulsy and the best thing they could do then would be to eliminate waste and get things repaired.

Yes they only care about the environment when it's costing them £££, recently there was some corporate crap about water/energy usage to read & signature after reading, safe to say I refused to do both.
If they really cared they would be collecting rainwater* and have all the roofs covered in solar.

*Actually they do collect that on the floors, everytime the newish roof leaks and/or drains are blocked. 

Yes, it may seem crazy, but the way companies value time and money is different than private people. In this case it was an inhouse calibration laboratory that was closed down to be outsourced, and these had been standing on a shelf for some years being broken. The option would be to try to find someone to repair them, which may work, then maybe get them sold, deal with accounting for this etc. And likely no employee has a KPI on doing these things. So what seems completely crazy may not be that crazy.

It used to be an interesting place to work, with lots of different trades, now just a few boring & unskilled ones left. Same thing happened to the cal lab here, outsourced to Trezzcal, who are shite. First was down-sizing of electronics to one bench (first round of rain filled skips) a few years ago, then last year cal lab closed & demolished (thankfully missed having to see this round of skips, off work following a HA), Nov this year saw the third & final round of skips, which again I was refused to buy anything, even after it was trashed by the weather. Sensible companies send it to Ramco or PPauctions & get some £££ for it.
For quite some time I now refer to the place as a 'dump' or 'S-hole'.

David

[d-el]

The Fluke 732b is a great find. I've been looking for similar ones on eBay, but haven't found one at a reasonable price yet