Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Wolfgang]

... you need to look up the Chinese approach to these concepts. Somebody seems to like it  there, I'm afraid, and as long they sell their stuff well they wont change it.
If you really feel like it apply for the job of head of design in Bejing. All other design experts should do the same. Then the rain will stop.

[bd139]

On the point with the Chinese designs they're excellent at emulating and at the same time missing the status quo by about 10-15 years. This is usually the time it takes higher end luxury items' parts to be commoditised. If you look at the crazy mobile phone designs of the early to mid-00's they're right there still. They're just moving into touch screen smart phone territory with all the early UI horrors included. Interestingly we thought the designs were all revolutionary at the time but they didn't stand the test of time. Its an impedance match problem really. In China, where you don't see some of the new Western brands these interfaces are revolutionary. But outside the Far East, they are treated as dated comedy.

Edit: compare the E36311A to the DP832. The interface elements are mostly the same. They are just in the wrong place on the DP832. (this isn't a complaint, just an observation). I doub anyone would buy an E36311A if they did a user study in the West, built a good support network (that is actually there at least here in the UK) and underpriced keysight.

[Cerebus]

... you need to look up the Chinese approach to these concepts. Somebody seems to like it  there, I'm afraid, and as long they sell their stuff well they wont change it.
If you really feel like it apply for the job of head of design in Bejing. All other design experts should do the same. Then the rain will stop.

You're sailing very close to the 'ad hominem' again there. Please don't, it achieves nothing other than putting people's backs up. This thread has seen a lot of downright, almost shouty, disagreement at times, but its always been done with mutual respect. Telling people what they "should" do, what they "need to" do is indicative of an attitude that your opinions are more valuable then other people's and is both arrogant and fundamentally disrespectful. Please stop it.

[Wolfgang]

The PSU debate DP832A/E36311A is quite a good example; The functionality is comparable (with some power advantages for the Rigol, some more functions for the Keysight), the price is a big advantage for the Rigol. Support here (Germany) is OK for both. Being new, the Keysight has a lot more bugs than the Rigol, now on the market for 5 years, no surprise. I bet that Rigol sells several times of their DP832s than Keysight is selling theirs.

The point is that (at least for me) you develop a routine using your instruments. After some months you *know* blindly what buttons to press, even if they are in an "awkward" position. All this design and ergonomic aspects are very important to users that never read a manual and expect that even complicated equipment is fully self-explanatory. Its not so much an issue for the pros.

Example:
I just got a VNA for a test loan. Its a Keysight E5061-3L5, a machine capable of doing measurements from 5Hz(!) to 3GHz in a single sweep, doing impedance measurements for SMD devices, stability analysis, gain/phase measurements and much more. The user interface is *old* (I would guess 10 to 15 years). Its complicated, because of the number of options, settings and calibrations you can make. It has a touchscreen, yes, but still - a lot to learn and your intuition wont be sufficient to operating this succesfully. Its an awesome machine (no competitors) - in the right hands. Some of the new fancy instruments are just the opposite, but they look nice.

[Specmaster]

The PSU debate DP832A/E36311A is quite a good example; The functionality is comparable (with some power advantages for the Rigol, some more functions for the Keysight), the price is a big advantage for the Rigol. Support here (Germany) is OK for both. Being new, the Keysight has a lot more bugs than the Rigol, now on the market for 5 years, no surprise. I bet that Rigol sells several times of their DP832s than Keysight is selling theirs.

The point is that (at least for me) you develop a routine using your instruments. After some months you *know* blindly what buttons to press, even if they are in an "awkward" position. All this design and ergonomic aspects are very important to users that never read a manual and expect that even complicated equipment is fully self-explanatory. Its not so much an issue for the pros.

Example:
I just got a VNA for a test loan. Its a Keysight E5061-3L5, a machine capable of doing measurements from 5Hz(!) to 3GHz in a single sweep, doing impedance measurements for SMD devices, stability analysis, gain/phase measurements and much more. The user interface is *old* (I would guess 10 to 15 years). Its complicated, because of the number of options, settings and calibrations you can make. It has a touchscreen, yes, but still - a lot to learn and your intuition wont be sufficient to operating this successfully. Its an awesome machine (no competitors) - in the right hands. Some of the new fancy instruments are just the opposite, but they look nice.

Not wishing to get dragged into this discussion as I think it is already well heated without someone else stocking the fire, but, I think the point about the ergonomics of an instrument is not that people expect controls to be laid in a certain manner so much as they expect the controls to be laid out in such a fashion that you cannot accidently operate another whilst adjusting something else. Clearly it does make sense to group controls in their respect functional groups wherever possible.

[Wolfgang]

Please give an example where this has been done / not done for the Keysight and the Rigol.

[Wolfgang]

Sorry for not being PC. My Viennese upbringing has caused my humour to be rather black.
Motto: The situation is hopeless, but not serious.

[Specmaster]

Please give an example where this has been done / not done for the Keysight and the Rigol.

@Wolfgang, if this comment is aimed at me, then I can't because I'm not familiar with either instrument, I was just making a general observation.

[Wolfgang]

No worry,  maybe somebody else comes up with a good example.

[bd139]

Keypad layout on DP832. Touch screen on DG800 series. Sync connector on rear of DG1022Z instead of front.

UI is convention, consistency, contrast.

I happened to spend a lot of time dealing with UI and HCI concerns on software and hardware.

Reference to another thread where I tear a Rigol product a new one https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-16-bit-function-generators-dg800900-series/msg1823000/#msg1823000 (and siglent a bit)

[Wolfgang]

Hi,

I still dont get it. What is specifically wrong with the DP832 layout. ?

Consistency: When I look at my Keysight portfolio (see profile) I can say that consistency *within* a machine is quite OK, the same for machines of the same "group" (e.g., RF), but consistency between teams (e.g. Multimeters, PSUs, Scopes and RF) is not very prominent. Its probably dependent on the teams that make them, and on the era it was designed. Keysight has a long history, so you have to live with quite some inconsistencies here. The same goes for other manufacturers like Rigol, if you look at the new low-end function generators DG800 (I commented on those) they dont have some much in common with their predecessors, probably for the same reasons as the Keysight stuff. They even lack coffee cup compatibility.

For pro equipment that is used for decades there is another element: It may be ergonomic or not, but you better support what the people are used to. Learning times can be quite an investment, and a complete redesign of a GUI devaluates that.

[Berni]

I have a Rigol DP832 at home and we have some at work.

So far its the best UI from all the digital PSUs i have used. Yes the silly round numeric keypad does take quite a bit of getting used to, but once you do it works great! Its really quick to set up. Say i want 5V 100mA on the 2nd output:
-Press Ch2
-Press 5
-Press V
-Press 1
-Press 0
-Press 0
-Press mA
-Press Ch2 Enable

The finger travel from "5" to "mA" is all around the knob so it pretty quick once you have memorized where the buttons are.

Once you know your way around its very quick to do. And the rest of the UI for the common functions is pretty intuitive like setting what digit of what parameter the knob turns, turning on overcurrent or overvoltage protections, linking channels together etc... It shows all the channels at the same time to milivolt and miliamp precision, including setpoints.

It does also have some wanky useless features in the firmware but they never get in the way.

[bd139]

Ok looks like I need to rip the DP832 a new one too. Professional opinion...

1. Enabled buttons aren't near the channel outputs. This is such a pain that they actually had to label the buttons and the outputs separately with the same rating. Oh and on the display just in case you didn't see it the other two times.
2. Keypad layout is not consistent with other devices (think telephones, numeric keypads etc)
3. Back has a right arrow emphasis on it
4. All on/off isn't grouped with the channel enable controls. Instead it's grouped for aesthetic symmetry on the wheel of misfortune on the right which is just silly. Also there's a low contrast legend sticking out of it on the left.
5. COM exception is underneath the binding posts where you can't see it. They tried to put the legend for this in a gap but the fact you need that is a design flaw.
6. Inconsistent leading zero digit trimming on the display
7. menu buttons are too far away from the display border
8. What the fuck does the clock button do and why is it there? There's a timer button to. No consistency.
9. No visual cue (colours) to link channels to display.
10. No grouping between unit buttons (mv/V/A etc)
11. Display / Store / Utility fonts aren't consistent sizing.
12. ... what does that do?
13. Overloading of encoder functionality.

Basically it's just crap.

Sure it works but they could have done so much better.

Edit: add another one.

[Berni]

All the multichannel HP/Agilent rack mount PSUs are way more annoying to set up, but they do look rather professional.

You can get colored grouping of the channels, buttons and display if you pay more for the higher up model (That is identical apart from new firmware that uses more than 1 color on the already color display and has colored LEDs in the buttons)

I do admit some of the design choices around it are not exactly optimal, but i have yet to see a fully featured(High res, timing, LAN...) multichannel PSU that has more functional UI. It looks weird but it works well. Then again i never used one of those newer fancy Keysight PSUs that look rather sexy because they cost a fortune and you can't get a old used one off ebay for a bargain yet.

[bd139]

The rack mount ones are system power supplies. They're supposed to be program and forget or remotely controlled. A lot of people seem to use them as bench supplies which I find weird. They also hum pretty loudly (then again all HP ones do for some reason).

The new keysight ones are spot on from what I've seen bar the firmware bugs. Can't afford one either yet. Maybe in ten years

[Wolfgang]

Well, now we at least have something to talk about.

ad 1) OK. Maybe on the A model with the colours its less problematic.
2) Its too long ago since I used a dial telephone. I would say, its no guesswork what the keys will do.
3) The back arrow is meant to "originate" (the dot) at the right and then comes backward to the left. Maybe chinese logic, but not difficult to understand.
4) But its so close and has all channel numbers drawn next to it.
5) I found it immediately. Symbol could be larger though.
6) What is inconsistent ?
7) A bit, yes.
Its not a clock, but the mode switch to round dials.
9) The A model has this
10) OK.
11) OK. Not tragic, though.
12) ... button is leading you to a submenu with more functions (play, record, ...)
13) In what respect ?

and now the 1 million $  question: What is the power supply you would say is perfectly designed ?

[bd139]

2) I mean digital telephone. Look at your smart phone dialer.
6) watts have more than one leading zero
8 ) gimmick
13)encoder does too many risky things.  are you setting current or voltage? No local context therefore cranking that 3.3V source up to 2A instead of 1A might mean you crank it up to 6.6V and 1A by accident. Bang! One encoder for current, one for voltage.

Perfect: TTi PL330QMD. Programmable version if you need it. Has serial and GP-IB.

[Specmaster]

!00% agree, encoder for each is so more sensible, you will know which one your adjusting once you have got used to the control layout. Having 1 encoder for both is folly, as you say, if you didn't press the button hard enough to switch its function over from volts to current and you don't visually check the display, bang goes your DUT as you double the volts for example, not ideal 

[bd139]

Fluke 87V dispatched finally. Woohoo!

[Specmaster]

Fluke 87V dispatched finally. Woohoo!

I snagged a Bose sounddock on Wednesday for repairing, still not showing as being dispatched, poked seller about it but not a bloody peep so far.....

[Wolfgang]

2) I know what you mean, still no hurdle.
6) OK.
3) This is for the analog freaks. I never run it like that,
13) Never struck me, but OK. You can set hard channel limits to avoid damage, though.

TTi: Yeah, those were the days. Designs like this are timeless, but there is a hard limit to the functionality you can support by such a design.
The functions a Rigol or new Keysight has today will never be supportable by an interface as spartanic as this one.

Give me a *newer* example of a perfect design, please.

[Wolfgang]

Congrats !

[bd139]

2) I know what you mean, still no hurdle.
6) OK.
3) This is for the analog freaks. I never run it like that,
13) Never struck me, but OK. You can set hard channel limits to avoid damage, though.

TTi: Yeah, those were the days. Designs like this are timeless, but there is a hard limit to the functionality you can support by such a design.
The functions a Rigol or new Keysight has today will never be supportable by an interface as spartanic as this one.

Give me a *newer* example of a perfect design, please.

https://www.aimtti.com/product-category/dc-power-supplies/aim-plseries

[Wolfgang]

You are still not there. All the "modes" (graphs,  switching, alerts and triggers, ...)  the new stuff has cannot be supported because of the missing display space.
A clean user interface is a lot easy to make when you only support a limited set of functions.
Einstein saying: You should make it as simple as possible, but not simpler.

[bd139]

You are still not there. All the "modes" (graphs,  switching, alerts and triggers, ...)  the new stuff has cannot be supported because of the missing display space.
A clean user interface is a lot easy to make when you only support a limited set of functions.
Einstein saying: You should make it as simple as possible, but not simpler.

It sounds like you want a computer and not a power supply. Paraphrasing The Unix philosophy's rule of modularity and composition, build simple things that work together.

My counter doesn't have the ability to measure drift over time. So I added it (and yes I am using notepad to write C# because I couldnt be bothered to download VS)



Oh and there's a TTi PL series 

Say you need an output from your DMM from DC volts in dBm adjusted relative to a y=mx+b transform, should you:

1. petition the manufacturer to add this.
2. compose a system that allows this
3. do it by hand.

I vote for (2).

(another job I had was composing test systems and programming them all)