Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 36042261 times)

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Offline beanflying

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28625 on: April 04, 2019, 12:43:57 am »
They are the best plugs in the world
The plugs themselves, possibly. The reason for their existence and the associated wiring, not quite.
Why, what’s wrong with our wiring and their reason existence? The ring circuit is a pretty good system in my experience, radials suck  :box:

Ring mains did have a place and time but unlikely to see implementation in other countries any time soon. My Shack is 20M away from the main house and working just fine on it's dedicated two radial 2.5sq mm power runs.  ;)

There is some nice features of the UK plug/sockets but they are still pig ugly  :box: :-DD
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Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28626 on: April 04, 2019, 12:53:55 am »
Some Tools I would not like to be without:
- Miniature Pump Pliers (in every kit and then some - working with pot and switch nuts etc - indispensable)
- Crown Shears (in every kit - finely serrated, cutting of shielding braid, foils and thin metal sheet)
- decent NON-MAGNETIC bit-holders (upper two are 1/4", next is 5/16", lowest 1/4" and 5/16" ratcheting)
- Screw starters of various types (as opposed to shrew startlers. which are not welcome!)
  The upper uses a little sharp wedge in the middle of the blade, which rotates. Can be pre-cocked and actuates on push
  The lower one has its blade split into two along a 45° line - sliding forward the sleeve increases blade width
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28627 on: April 04, 2019, 01:12:28 am »
Used Simpson 260 ... only £44!

Much :palm: here...



How the hell does that even happen????  :palm:

Really easily. Play spot the pivot wire with a 1/4W resistor in front for scale. The meter shown actually has a clamp mechanism on it for travel.


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Offline 0culus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28628 on: April 04, 2019, 01:16:15 am »
Ahhh, that makes more sense. I thought for sure someone had blown up that poor meter hard enough to destroy the meter movement.  :-DD
 

Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28629 on: April 04, 2019, 01:54:46 am »
Used Simpson 260 ... only £44!

Much :palm: here...



About $60 USD. That's actually cheap. I've seen them posted for much more here.

Uhh, med - you might want to take a closer look at the meter pointer.   ;)

Just sayin'...

-Pat

Well SOB...I didn't enlarge the picture.  |O  It ain't worth $5.  :--
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28630 on: April 04, 2019, 02:22:10 am »
What am I missing? Aren't we just looking at the taut-band edge-on? I assume you've tested the movement and it is open?

Not really "Not worth $5"... but not worth $60 as a parts unit unless it's just the needle broken off by rough handling on the transit clamp.

Hopefully he'll get a few bucks back on it filing a dispute; enough to be worth saving as a body donor for a smashed one, which is by far the more common mode of death.

EDIT: Oh, now I see. Wrong knob on the AC/DC/DC Rev switch and zeroing pot missing altogether. Any OTHER core components missing? Or is this another like my first 189; gutted to fix another then sold "AS-IS FOR PARTS OR REPAIR" ...?


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« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 02:31:36 am by mnementh »
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Offline bitseekerTopic starter

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28631 on: April 04, 2019, 04:13:29 am »
Yes, a very bright red core component:

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Offline 0culus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28632 on: April 04, 2019, 04:32:14 am »
So the meter movement IS broken? I've very confused now...
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28633 on: April 04, 2019, 05:11:21 am »
So the meter movement IS broken? I've very confused now...

It either has a broken pivot wire/band so the needle is sitting in the bottom of the movement out of sight and or the backend of the meter movement has been removed. From my photo that would be the bobbin the meter coil is wound around which in turn attaches to the needle isn't in the position it shouild be.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28634 on: April 04, 2019, 07:00:01 am »
It’s knackered either way. Seller is selling as “used” so if anyone bids its going to end up in a refund.

Also on UK mains: I don’t have a ring main. Most modern builds and rewiring goes to spurs and breakers.
 

Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28635 on: April 04, 2019, 08:01:29 am »
It’s knackered either way. Seller is selling as “used” so if anyone bids its going to end up in a refund.

Also on UK mains: I don’t have a ring main. Most modern builds and rewiring goes to spurs and breakers.

Please explain "ring main"  :-//
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28636 on: April 04, 2019, 08:10:12 am »
It’s knackered either way. Seller is selling as “used” so if anyone bids its going to end up in a refund.

Also on UK mains: I don’t have a ring main. Most modern builds and rewiring goes to spurs and breakers.

Please explain "ring main"  :-//
The cable run is laid in a ring terminating at the supply so that in practice slightly lighter cable could be used as current flows up either leg of the ring.

Never seen one here as mains circuits a starburst wired from a single supply point.
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Offline 0culus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28637 on: April 04, 2019, 08:14:36 am »
It’s knackered either way. Seller is selling as “used” so if anyone bids its going to end up in a refund.

Also on UK mains: I don’t have a ring main. Most modern builds and rewiring goes to spurs and breakers.

I took a quick peek on fleabay and it looks like (at least stateside) there's quite a few of those meters for sale that are actually intact for less than 100 yankee bux.

Tonight I took IPA to that 431B power meter's case to get rid of the sticky substances that had accumulated (why does this happen? I've had more than one old piece of HP gear that was just sticky when I got it). There was also some incredibly crusty old scotch tape that I finally got off.  :palm: On the bright side, it looks great, and now isn't sticky anymore. The thing is just super clean inside. Have a line cord on the way that will fit it.

It's also missing it's feet (no surprise there). @beanflying, I looked through some of the designs in the replacement feet thread but couldn't find an exact match. I thought it looked like this, but there's no place for those screws.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28638 on: April 04, 2019, 08:21:55 am »
I took a quick peek on fleabay and it looks like (at least stateside) there's quite a few of those meters for sale that are actually intact for less than 100 yankee bux.

Tonight I took IPA to that 431B power meter's case to get rid of the sticky substances that had accumulated (why does this happen? I've had more than one old piece of HP gear that was just sticky when I got it). There was also some incredibly crusty old scotch tape that I finally got off.  :palm: On the bright side, it looks great, and now isn't sticky anymore. The thing is just super clean inside. Have a line cord on the way that will fit it.

It's also missing it's feet (no surprise there). @beanflying, I looked through some of the designs in the replacement feet thread but couldn't find an exact match. I thought it looked like this, but there's no place for those screws.

Give me some time  ;) My 419A was missing the bottom cover and feet (still has the wire bail like yours) so I will be rolling a solution at some stage.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 08:24:52 am by beanflying »
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Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28639 on: April 04, 2019, 08:24:26 am »
It’s knackered either way. Seller is selling as “used” so if anyone bids its going to end up in a refund.

Also on UK mains: I don’t have a ring main. Most modern builds and rewiring goes to spurs and breakers.

Please explain "ring main"  :-//
The cable run is laid in a ring terminating at the supply so that in practice slightly lighter cable could be used as current flows up either leg of the ring.

Never seen one here as mains circuits a starburst wired from a single supply point.

Still don't get it.  :-// Must be I need a 2nd cup of coffee to flush out the cob webs.  :-DD

Starburst wiring I get. Single point from breaker box to a junction box where it may branch to 2 or more strings of outlets/switches/etc. Typically here 14 gauge solid for 15A circuits and 12 gauge solid for 20A circuits.
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Offline 0culus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28640 on: April 04, 2019, 08:26:48 am »
I took a quick peek on fleabay and it looks like (at least stateside) there's quite a few of those meters for sale that are actually intact for less than 100 yankee bux.

Tonight I took IPA to that 431B power meter's case to get rid of the sticky substances that had accumulated (why does this happen? I've had more than one old piece of HP gear that was just sticky when I got it). There was also some incredibly crusty old scotch tape that I finally got off.  :palm: On the bright side, it looks great, and now isn't sticky anymore. The thing is just super clean inside. Have a line cord on the way that will fit it.

It's also missing it's feet (no surprise there). @beanflying, I looked through some of the designs in the replacement feet thread but couldn't find an exact match. I thought it looked like this, but there's no place for those screws.

Give me some time  ;) My 419A was missing the bottom cover and feet (still has the wire bail like yours) so I will be rolling a solution at some stage.

Sounds good!  :-+
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28641 on: April 04, 2019, 08:29:44 am »

Still don't get it.  :-// Must be I need a 2nd cup of coffee to flush out the cob webs.  :-DD

Starburst wiring I get. Single point from breaker box to a junction box where it may branch to 2 or more strings of outlets/switches/etc. Typically here 14 gauge solid for 15A circuits and 12 gauge solid for 20A circuits.

To try and save copper post WW2 homes were wired with a single high current 30A loop instead of the more conventional option. The downside was it was high current fused so the plugs had a lower current fuse fitted for safety. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

Still used in water/pipe systems in particular in Fire Service to maintain a more constant pressure at all points. We also used them on some irrigation systems for the same purpose.
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28642 on: April 04, 2019, 08:30:19 am »
It’s knackered either way. Seller is selling as “used” so if anyone bids its going to end up in a refund.

Also on UK mains: I don’t have a ring main. Most modern builds and rewiring goes to spurs and breakers.

Please explain "ring main"  :-//
The cable run is laid in a ring terminating at the supply so that in practice slightly lighter cable could be used as current flows up either leg of the ring.

Never seen one here as mains circuits a starburst wired from a single supply point.

Still don't get it.  :-// Must be I need a 2nd cup of coffee to flush out the cob webs.  :-DD
Before I have a 2nd bourbon I'd better get this cleared up.  :)

Quote
Starburst wiring I get. Single point from breaker box to a junction box where it may branch to 2 or more strings of outlets/switches/etc. Typically here 14 gauge solid for 15A circuits and 12 gauge solid for 20A circuits.
Ring starts from the breaker/fuse and passes and connects to each outlet to end at the breaker/fuse where it began.
Current is sourced along each leg of the ring.

 :phew: time for another  :popcorn:
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Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28643 on: April 04, 2019, 08:38:43 am »
It’s knackered either way. Seller is selling as “used” so if anyone bids its going to end up in a refund.

Also on UK mains: I don’t have a ring main. Most modern builds and rewiring goes to spurs and breakers.

Please explain "ring main"  :-//
The cable run is laid in a ring terminating at the supply so that in practice slightly lighter cable could be used as current flows up either leg of the ring.

Never seen one here as mains circuits a starburst wired from a single supply point.

Still don't get it.  :-// Must be I need a 2nd cup of coffee to flush out the cob webs.  :-DD
Before I have a 2nd bourbon I'd better get this cleared up.  :)

Quote
Starburst wiring I get. Single point from breaker box to a junction box where it may branch to 2 or more strings of outlets/switches/etc. Typically here 14 gauge solid for 15A circuits and 12 gauge solid for 20A circuits.
Ring starts from the breaker/fuse and passes and connects to each outlet to end at the breaker/fuse where it began.
Current is sourced along each leg of the ring.

 :phew: time for another  :popcorn:

OK, I think I get it now and while I'm not up on all aspects of our electrical code it doesn't sound kosher to me.  :o
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28644 on: April 04, 2019, 08:50:55 am »
It’s knackered either way. Seller is selling as “used” so if anyone bids its going to end up in a refund.

Also on UK mains: I don’t have a ring main. Most modern builds and rewiring goes to spurs and breakers.

Please explain "ring main"  :-//
The cable run is laid in a ring terminating at the supply so that in practice slightly lighter cable could be used as current flows up either leg of the ring.

Never seen one here as mains circuits a starburst wired from a single supply point.

Still don't get it.  :-// Must be I need a 2nd cup of coffee to flush out the cob webs.  :-DD
Before I have a 2nd bourbon I'd better get this cleared up.  :)

Quote
Starburst wiring I get. Single point from breaker box to a junction box where it may branch to 2 or more strings of outlets/switches/etc. Typically here 14 gauge solid for 15A circuits and 12 gauge solid for 20A circuits.
Ring starts from the breaker/fuse and passes and connects to each outlet to end at the breaker/fuse where it began.
Current is sourced along each leg of the ring.

 :phew: time for another  :popcorn:

OK, I think I get it now and while I'm not up on all aspects of our electrical code it doesn't sound kosher to me.  :o
Why ?

Have a look at this pic from the Wiki link Bean offered:



Pretty damn simple IMO.
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Offline VK5RC

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28645 on: April 04, 2019, 09:48:54 am »
Gee tautech, don't you know from those unidirectional cable hifi guys that electrons only can flow in one direction!
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Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28646 on: April 04, 2019, 10:07:26 am »
It’s knackered either way. Seller is selling as “used” so if anyone bids its going to end up in a refund.

Also on UK mains: I don’t have a ring main. Most modern builds and rewiring goes to spurs and breakers.

Please explain "ring main"  :-//
The cable run is laid in a ring terminating at the supply so that in practice slightly lighter cable could be used as current flows up either leg of the ring.

Never seen one here as mains circuits a starburst wired from a single supply point.

Still don't get it.  :-// Must be I need a 2nd cup of coffee to flush out the cob webs.  :-DD
Before I have a 2nd bourbon I'd better get this cleared up.  :)

Quote
Starburst wiring I get. Single point from breaker box to a junction box where it may branch to 2 or more strings of outlets/switches/etc. Typically here 14 gauge solid for 15A circuits and 12 gauge solid for 20A circuits.
Ring starts from the breaker/fuse and passes and connects to each outlet to end at the breaker/fuse where it began.
Current is sourced along each leg of the ring.

 :phew: time for another  :popcorn:

OK, I think I get it now and while I'm not up on all aspects of our electrical code it doesn't sound kosher to me.  :o
Why ?

Have a look at this pic from the Wiki link Bean offered:



Pretty damn simple IMO.

OK, now I get it. I have done some domestic wiring and I'm familiar with some of the code but I can say that I have NEVER seen a circuit where the hot and neutral loop back on itself at the breaker box.

Edit....Did some research and the "ring circuit" is illegal here. Just as I thought. Not kosher.  :palm:
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 10:26:52 am by med6753 »
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28647 on: April 04, 2019, 10:48:35 am »
It’s knackered either way. Seller is selling as “used” so if anyone bids its going to end up in a refund.

Also on UK mains: I don’t have a ring main. Most modern builds and rewiring goes to spurs and breakers.

Please explain "ring main"  :-//
The cable run is laid in a ring terminating at the supply so that in practice slightly lighter cable could be used as current flows up either leg of the ring.

Never seen one here as mains circuits a starburst wired from a single supply point.

Still don't get it.  :-// Must be I need a 2nd cup of coffee to flush out the cob webs.  :-DD
Before I have a 2nd bourbon I'd better get this cleared up.  :)

Quote
Starburst wiring I get. Single point from breaker box to a junction box where it may branch to 2 or more strings of outlets/switches/etc. Typically here 14 gauge solid for 15A circuits and 12 gauge solid for 20A circuits.
Ring starts from the breaker/fuse and passes and connects to each outlet to end at the breaker/fuse where it began.
Current is sourced along each leg of the ring.

 :phew: time for another  :popcorn:

OK, I think I get it now and while I'm not up on all aspects of our electrical code it doesn't sound kosher to me.  :o
Why ?

Have a look at this pic from the Wiki link Bean offered:



Pretty damn simple IMO.
Correct and this method is still the most popular method of wiring power sockets in most UK and and parts of the world that adopt the British Standards of Wiring. Someone made the comment that it was because of copper shortages and allowed the use of undersized cables. This is incorrect, the standards call for a minimum cable size of 2 x 2.5mm in a typical ring and 2 x 4mm if the ring is particularly long. The ring starts and finishes at the same 32A MCB in the consumer unit and in a domestic property, there generally are 2 such circuits, 1 for each floor.

This method does indeed save on cable, and therefore the cost of the installation is reduced and works like this because of diversity which works on the assumption that not every socket on the ring is going to be loaded to its maximum current. My own house for example is a 4 bed house and each bedroom has 3 twin socket outlets at various locations in the rooms and 1 single outlet on the landing. In each bedroom, the number of socket outlets has been increased via the use extension leads as many of the wall sockets are covered by furniture and in my lab (the smallest bedroom) I have 40 socket outlets available to me so I have sufficient outlets for all my test gear and other devices such as computer, monitors, speakers, fan and task lighting. My 2 sons that are still living at home have around 15 extra outlets for their computers, monitors, games consoles etc and in the 25 years that I've lived here we have never had the MCB trip at all. We have similar arrangement downstairs (slightly fewer outlets on extension leads) and again never had the MCB trip, the kitchen has its own ring circuit and again never any problems with MCB tripping. We have had a few occasions where the RCD has tripped due to leakages being detected on equipment plugged in. Now even if only the actual fixed outlets were wired as radials, we would need to have at least 5 MCB ways to feed the upstairs circuits alone, plus the immersion heater / boiler and lighting adding a further 3 MCB ways in the consumer unit, and that would dramatically increase the cost for cables on its own plus the MCB's and the larger consumer unit.   :palm: 
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Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28648 on: April 04, 2019, 10:59:14 am »
I don't like it. The basic idea behind the ring circuit is to allow you to use smaller gauge wiring to "share" the load in theory but in actual practice that's total bullshit.  :bullshit:  And what if one side of the circuit goes open? Now you have potentially overloaded wiring but your circuit breaker is happier than a pig in shit.

As I recall our electrical code is very specific on wire sizes for total expected load. For example: 15A requires 14 gauge minimum. 20A requires 12 gauge minimum. This totally negates using a ring circuit with smaller gauge wiring. 

 
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #28649 on: April 04, 2019, 11:58:56 am »
I don't like it. The basic idea behind the ring circuit is to allow you to use smaller gauge wiring to "share" the load in theory but in actual practice that's total bullshit.  :bullshit:  And what if one side of the circuit goes open? Now you have potentially overloaded wiring but your circuit breaker is happier than a pig in shit.

As I recall our electrical code is very specific on wire sizes for total expected load. For example: 15A requires 14 gauge minimum. 20A requires 12 gauge minimum. This totally negates using a ring circuit with smaller gauge wiring. 

 
In a domestic circuit you would be hard pressed to get to a situation where a ring that had gone open one side would be drawing sufficient current to cause the cable any problems with handling it. What would be a problem is to plug an extension lead of upto 10 outlets in a socket and load up the lead. This especially true in the case of many of Chinese power cords and leads.

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