Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Vince]

You are more likely to find radioactive material in a regular vacuum tube. Many have thorum in the heaters or cathodes. A lot of Voltage regulator tubes contain radioactive material this can be gas, metal or plating internally or even a piece of material on the outside of the envelope.
Many spark gaps and microwave switch or limiter devices are also coantain radioactive material.

Indeed old stuff had radioactive everything ! 

To add to your list, another example : recently on my 575 resto thread we were discussing with Factory neon bulbs, "NE" something.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/tektronix-type-575-curve-tracer-repair-and-restoration/msg3802085/#msg3802085

We looked at the period datasheet for them and it says they added some "mild" radioactive stuff in the bulbs to reduce the "dark effect", whatever that is.

There are at least a dozen of these bulbs in each and every of my glowing Tek scopes ! I am doomed !

[Robert763]

It has a 6-Watt input, instead of the usual 3-Watt, but not the beefier 60- or 100-Watt. It does have the mechanical attenuator, which makes its

Thanks, yes, I had come across it the day the 8924C arrived. I'll set mine up accordingly since I don't have use for the CDMA functionality. Amtronix also has a quick-start page (in serious need of some formatting): https://www.amtronix.com/8924cqs.htm

I haven't yet looked at what all the RF Tools consist of. Can they be extracted and then loaded into another flash card or into RAM?

Congrats on the 8920B deal. That's certainly easier to relocate than the 8924 behemoth with its "Two-person Lift" stickers on the sides.

The RF tools have  useful tracking generator / SA scalar analyser function among others. The files should be on the IO group but loding them on a Flash card cn be tricky. I found that only the binary image on a "linear" flash card worked for me. Note that cards that simulate an IDE interface won't work. This includes using a CF card in a PCMCIA adaptor.
You can load programs into RAM via HPIB or even serial in theory but I've not done it.

[TERRA Operative]

So the relays for the acquisition hybrids in the TDS620B arrived today. Wasn't too difficult at all to replace them all.

After running the Signal Path Compensation function, it was WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!

I also unlocked some extra features, and once the extra memory chips arrive, I'll see if I can enable the 2M memory option.

[Saskia]

how much of that do I need to collect to get energy independent ?
A gen 4 mini reactor would certainly alleviate my energy requirements.

[Specmaster]

@Cerebus, did you ever manage to get your hands some wiper blades from Home Bargains in the end? If not they have some in Lidl's at the moment but best move fast as they won't be around for long.

[tautech]

I am progressively getting used to the idea that it's time to stop collecting scopes, 35 of them is a bit much. So am considering getting rid of a few of them and replacing them with a few frequency counters.

Have you considered a modern AWG ?
Most have a basic counter but for calibrating CRO's their variety of signal types could also prove handy.

[Robert763]

It's an old looking Thandar counter, model PFM200A it looks like.... What's interesting to me are the specs, an incredible 200MHz for such an old and basic looking counter + the fact it does so in a tiny package + it's portable/handheld ?! Not sure why one would want a handheld 200MHz counter ?!

Sniffing for low cost bugs?   The PFM 200A dates from the late 1970s. 


Checking 2m band mobile radios?   Checking aircraft radios?

Built in a sinclar calculator case. There was a voltmeter, PDM35 in the same case.
http://www.dustygizmos.com/arcpages/arcsinstuff.htm
Use for a handheld FC? at that time adjusting mobile radios which were crystal controlled with two crystals per channel.
And possibly checking aircraft radios. The Microwave Modules MMD 050/500 was more popualr for that in the UK at least.
Remember this was 25kHz channel spacing analogue radio. High perfomance standards were not required. A digital counter was a huge step up from a wavemeter or hetrodyne frequency meter.

[RolandK]

You are more likely to find radioactive material in a regular vacuum tube. Many have thorum in the heaters or cathodes. A lot of Voltage regulator tubes contain radioactive material this can be gas, metal or plating internally or even a piece of material on the outside of the envelope.
Many spark gaps and microwave switch or limiter devices are also coantain radioactive material.

Indeed old stuff had radioactive everything ! 

To add to your list, another example : recently on my 575 resto thread we were discussing with Factory neon bulbs, "NE" something.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/tektronix-type-575-curve-tracer-repair-and-restoration/msg3802085/#msg3802085

We looked at the period datasheet for them and it says they added some "mild" radioactive stuff in the bulbs to reduce the "dark effect", whatever that is.

There are at least a dozen of these bulbs in each and every of my glowing Tek scopes ! I am doomed !

In vacuum tubes the emission is driven by the heater. In Neons you need to start the emission. This can be by light, radioactive radiation or heat (fluorescent hg lamps with starter). Carlson's lab has a video on the hp 419a, with explanation and the replacement of the neons with red led's and a lt494 (type only visible on a blink of the video).

There is a comment by JOHN YOUNGQUIST:
"... Neon depends on alpha particles from outer space to provide seed ionization to work in the dark, otherwise ordinary ambient light does it. Lamps that had to work in the dark employed radioactivity. A little KR-85 a radioactive isotope of krypton gas mixed with the neon was often used. Some sort of radioactive electrode or green uranium glass might do it too. The exact neon bulb might have been a carefully guarded secret at the time to prevent copying the design. The little bulb was so common at the time who would think it was special? It would look the same as any other lamp.  They would not have unlimited life and for something people left on all the time replacements would be inevitable. ..."

[Robert763]

You are more likely to find radioactive material in a regular vacuum tube. Many have thorum in the heaters or cathodes. A lot of Voltage regulator tubes contain radioactive material this can be gas, metal or plating internally or even a piece of material on the outside of the envelope.
Many spark gaps and microwave switch or limiter devices are also coantain radioactive material.

Indeed old stuff had radioactive everything ! 

To add to your list, another example : recently on my 575 resto thread we were discussing with Factory neon bulbs, "NE" something.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/tektronix-type-575-curve-tracer-repair-and-restoration/msg3802085/#msg3802085

We looked at the period datasheet for them and it says they added some "mild" radioactive stuff in the bulbs to reduce the "dark effect", whatever that is.

There are at least a dozen of these bulbs in each and every of my glowing Tek scopes ! I am doomed !

Indeed, but I count neons in tha application with VR ans spark gap tubes.
"Dark Effect" ie where the breakdowwn or "strilke" voltage of a tud is dfferent in the dark compared to when exposed to light. Light causes sone relese of electrons. addin radiactive materail provides a constant low level of ionaisation that swamps theis effect.
It's often disovered as "works with cover off but not with it on.
I once saw it with a LED flasher circuit using a 3V battery. It was in a fake burglar alarm box The thing would flash in day light but not at night  Swapping the LED out cured it. I guess the original had high forward voltage or something. 

The worst thing thing in terms of radoactive hazard you re likely to come across with electronics is Radium based luminous paint. This emits Radon which then spreads radioactive Lead and Polonium everyere. That includes in your lungs. Common in old aircraft instruments but also found in panel markings of old radios and even test equipment. They no longer glow in the dark but are still radioactive.

[Cerebus]

Probably not, wasn't Thandar something to do with Sinclair, starting out as Sinclair Instruments I think?

Eh? You say "probably not" and then provide supporting evidence for "probably", albeit it the form of a question. Get yer thinking cap on straight lad!

Thandar was a renaming of Sinclair Radionics. "In July Clive Sinclair resigned with a £10,000 golden handshake. In September the NEB renamed what was left of [Sinclair] Radionics (i.e. the scientific instrument business) as Sinclair Electronics Ltd.; in January 1980 this was changed to Thandar Electronics Ltd. In 1989, Thandar Electronics Ltd merged with Thurlby Electronics Ltd, forming Thurlby Thandar Instruments Ltd. This company now does business under the name Aim and Thurlby Thandar Instruments (Aim-TTi).[11]" from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_Radionics#Demise .

[Cerebus]

@Cerebus, did you ever manage to get your hands some wiper blades from Home Bargains in the end? If not they have some in Lidl's at the moment but best move fast as they won't be around for long.

No, and "that was ages ago". I did actually put some new blades on for the winter the other day, modern whooshy aerodynamic one-piece ones from Lucas.

[med6753]

@Cerebus, did you ever manage to get your hands some wiper blades from Home Bargains in the end? If not they have some in Lidl's at the moment but best move fast as they won't be around for long.

No, and "that was ages ago". I did actually put some new blades on for the winter the other day, modern whooshy aerodynamic one-piece ones from Lucas.

Lucas?  Don't use them in the dark. 

[Cerebus]

You are more likely to find radioactive material in a regular vacuum tube. Many have thorum in the heaters or cathodes. A lot of Voltage regulator tubes contain radioactive material this can be gas, metal or plating internally or even a piece of material on the outside of the envelope.
Many spark gaps and microwave switch or limiter devices are also coantain radioactive material.

Indeed old stuff had radioactive everything ! 

To add to your list, another example : recently on my 575 resto thread we were discussing with Factory neon bulbs, "NE" something.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/tektronix-type-575-curve-tracer-repair-and-restoration/msg3802085/#msg3802085

We looked at the period datasheet for them and it says they added some "mild" radioactive stuff in the bulbs to reduce the "dark effect", whatever that is.

There are at least a dozen of these bulbs in each and every of my glowing Tek scopes ! I am doomed !

In vacuum tubes the emission is driven by the heater. In Neons you need to start the emission. This can be by light, radioactive radiation or heat (fluorescent hg lamps with starter). Carlson's lab has a video on the hp 419a, with explanation and the replacement of the neons with red led's and a lt494 (type only visible on a blink of the video).

There is a comment by JOHN YOUNGQUIST:
"... Neon depends on alpha particles from outer space to provide seed ionization to work in the dark, otherwise ordinary ambient light does it. Lamps that had to work in the dark employed radioactivity. A little KR-85 a radioactive isotope of krypton gas mixed with the neon was often used. Some sort of radioactive electrode or green uranium glass might do it too. The exact neon bulb might have been a carefully guarded secret at the time to prevent copying the design. The little bulb was so common at the time who would think it was special? It would look the same as any other lamp.  They would not have unlimited life and for something people left on all the time replacements would be inevitable. ..."

Oh look, someone who thinks alpha particles can make it all the way from "outer space" to a neon tube despite the fact that in air they can barely make it few centimetres* (and there's a lot of air between here and outer space). I do like people who make it clear that they are talking rubbish right at the beginning of something, so you don't have to waste time listening to the rest.

*Typical range in air 2.34 to 7.3 cm for alpha particles in the energy range 4-8MeV.

[mansaxel]

No, and "that was ages ago". I did actually put some new blades on for the winter the other day, modern whooshy aerodynamic one-piece ones from Lucas.

Darkness included.

[Specmaster]

Probably not, wasn't Thandar something to do with Sinclair, starting out as Sinclair Instruments I think?

Eh? You say "probably not" and then provide supporting evidence for "probably", albeit it the form of a question. Get yer thinking cap on straight lad!

Thandar was a renaming of Sinclair Radionics. "In July Clive Sinclair resigned with a £10,000 golden handshake. In September the NEB renamed what was left of [Sinclair] Radionics (i.e. the scientific instrument business) as Sinclair Electronics Ltd.; in January 1980 this was changed to Thandar Electronics Ltd. In 1989, Thandar Electronics Ltd merged with Thurlby Electronics Ltd, forming Thurlby Thandar Instruments Ltd. This company now does business under the name Aim and Thurlby Thandar Instruments (Aim-TTi).[11]" from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_Radionics#Demise .

Thinking cap was straight, I was saying that it was not a mistake accident that it looked like a Sinclair calculator, soft lad. 

[tggzzz]

I am progressively getting used to the idea that it's time to stop collecting scopes, 35 of them is a bit much. So am considering getting rid of a few of them and replacing them with a few frequency counters.

Have you considered a modern AWG ?
Most have a basic counter but for calibrating CRO's their variety of signal types could also prove handy.

If you know the required waveshape, possibly. I'd be concerned about the slow risetime.

I'd prefer to have something with a known fast risetime, an ordinary sig gen, and possibly a >30Vdc source.

[Cerebus]

@Cerebus, did you ever manage to get your hands some wiper blades from Home Bargains in the end? If not they have some in Lidl's at the moment but best move fast as they won't be around for long.

No, and "that was ages ago". I did actually put some new blades on for the winter the other day, modern whooshy aerodynamic one-piece ones from Lucas.

Lucas?  Don't use them in the dark. 

Son, I say son, if your wiper blades help you to see in the dark then we're back to them ray-dee-O-active materials and them's not what you're wantin' to be makin' wiper blades, I say wiper blades, from.

[Vince]

I am progressively getting used to the idea that it's time to stop collecting scopes, 35 of them is a bit much. So am considering getting rid of a few of them and replacing them with a few frequency counters.

Have you considered a modern AWG ?
Most have a basic counter but for calibrating CRO's their variety of signal types could also prove handy.

Yes long term would like an AWG. As to what what "modern" means... if you mlean Siglent modern no, probably not.  My budget and personal interest for "modern" stuff is mostly the '90s.

However as far as using an AWG as a counter no, I prefer dedicated tools that do one thing but hopefully do it well. At least do it better than if they ware also trying to do 3 other things at the same time... engineering is about compromises... the less stuff your device needs to do, the more you can optimize it and the better specs you can extract from it.

For "modern" stuff, to do real "work" (who am I kidding...) in the lab, to save space I intend to target mostly half width  instruments, with rear mounted fans/ventilation so I can stack instruments for more compactness. I like fluorescent displays, looks cool and is easy to read (when they are not worn out of course !  ) . So mostly I would like to get the old HP/Agilent VFD instruments everybody seems to want. The 344xx something DMM, and the same form factor and display, the counter (with the optional but retro-fittable 3GHz RF input), and the sig gen / AWG.
Counter can be expensive as I understand it, if you want one with the OCXO or super duper OCXO++ mega top accurate. These are rare and expensive and not needed for me. That would require to let the counter/OCXO power up 24/7 to get turn key accuracy.
Nope... idea is to get a decent 10MHz ref + amplifier/dispatch box, and feed that to a "cheap" non-OCXO counter, which goes for 500 Euros usually IIRC, as do the DMM and AWG..  Only hte ref will need to run 24/7, one single device, then it will gvie me tunr key accuracy not just on the cheapish HP counter, but also even better, on any of my current and to come, vintage Nixie tube counters... making them much more useful instruments which is cool.

So basically I foresee 3 times 500 Euros to spend to get a basic set of decent modernish instruments.
Then another 500 for a decent HP/keysight dual output programmable power supply. Then another of the same, but high-voltage low current, to play with fluo anything... neon bulbs, high voltage Zener diodes, Nixie tubes, VFD displays, anything fluo-something....
That said my 200 volts 575 Tek curve tracer will already provide some functionality there as well, yeah..

Then a DC load, same form factor.

Then an RF synth, some '90's HP/Agilent  item again, not the super mega expensive ones that are rack mountable or shaped like it... but rather the bench top ones, more compact/narrower, taller. I don't know the model numbers sorry. They have a green/yellow text LCD with off white and anthracite themed front panel, I like this line of products.

Then an old HP spectrum analyzer, again the creme/anthracite ones, love those, but still very expensive today somehow....if I can't find a cheap enough one, might make more sense to go for a new-ish R&S one as I like them and the entry level ones (3GHz) or so, are kinda affordable IIRC ? 1500 Euros or something ? Maybe  with the TG option that I would want.

That's the program for Vince's Lab V2.0 in the making, should keep my waltet busy for the next few years ! 

[mnementh]

I wouldn't touch it either... just in case it's been fuckerized by a gorilla and full of cesium dust and make you glow in the dark.

Even 60 years old that would still gonna be dangerous.

mnem
"...Must be these strangers that come every night;
Their saucer-shaped eyes put people uptight!
Leave little green footprints that glow in the dark;
I hope they get home all right. "

The Caesium in frequency stands is not radioactive. (Some Rb standards do use a radioactive isotope of Rb as an optical filter).
You are more likely to find radioactive material in a regular vacuum tube. Many have thorum in the heaters or cathodes. A lot of Voltage regulator tubes contain radioactive material this can be gas, metal or plating internally or even a piece of material on the outside of the envelope.
Many spark gaps and microwave switch or limiter devices are also contain radioactive material.

Yeah, C already corrected me, and I now stand sit indubitably corrected. 

That said, his attached demonstrations of cesium and various related metals' reaction with water (?) did little to make me feel at ease.

But good to know! 

mnem
"Can you say BOOM! boys and girls...?"

[xrunner]

So mostly I would like to get the old HP/Agilent VFD instruments everybody seems to want. The 344xx something DMM, and the same form factor and display, the counter (with the optional but retro-fittable 3GHz RF input), and the sig gen / AWG.

34401A DMM.

Sounds like you want the Agilent 33120A 15 MHz Function / Arbitrary Waveform Generator

eBay auction: #324901382437

and then the Agilent 53131A 225 MHz Universal Frequency Counter/Timer

eBay auction: #324842284152

[mnementh]

@Cerebus, did you ever manage to get your hands some wiper blades from Home Bargains in the end? If not they have some in Lidl's at the moment but best move fast as they won't be around for long.

No, and "that was ages ago". I did actually put some new blades on for the winter the other day, modern whooshy aerodynamic one-piece ones from Lucas.

Lucas?  Don't use them in the dark. 

Son, I say son, if your wiper blades help you to see in the dark then we're back to them ray-dee-O-active materials and them's not what you're wantin' to be makin' wiper blades, I say wiper blades, from.

Seems to me that clearing the rain from your windshield does help you to see regardless of most other conditions... and it does rain at night, you know. 

mnem
“Stop, I say stop it boy; you’re doin’ a lot of choppin’, but no chips are flyin’ !"

[mnementh]

shit I need one now... Stark VT-9 

You might have better luck finding the Hickok 209A version of this.  Stark built a lot of Hickok designs under license in Canada which meant they were made in low numbers and only sold here so they're not all that common, even here.

One of the oddities about mine and you can see this in the picture I posted is that it's from the old dual frequency era when there was a good chunk of Ontario still on 25 Hz power and it's got 25/60 stamped in the frequency box.  I didn't notice from Mr. Carlson's video if his is the same.  Frequency standardization was still a work in progress then.  Mine still needs restoration too.  It's in the lineup but there's only so many hours in a day...

Back in the day, West Oz had 40Hz mains frequency, compared to 50Hz in other States.

For most things, it didn't matter, but for record players, it did.

The stepped piece attached to the motor shaft that allows speed selection needed to be replaced to get the correct speeds, so local electronics retailers outsourced the manufacture of "40 cycle" replacements for the standard part to small machine shops, adding a premium to the price of the record player to cover costs.

They also kept all the "redundant" 50 Hz parts.

In due course, WA changed to 50Hz, & customers needed "new" replacement "50 cycle" parts.
The old box of 50Hz bits was unearthed & they were sold at "a small premium"----business doesn't get much sweeter than that!

Hmmm... guess I'm young enough that particular aspect of phonograph and/or pancake motor manufacture (at least in the US) had gone the "buy them by 100K pieces, get it custom-made and cheaper" route, as I can't recall ever seeing one that didn't have the steps machined directly into the motor shaft, and specifications for RPM/Hz stamped/labeled somewhere on the motor. Sometimes a brass sleeve pressed on to add a step for models with 78RPM. 

mnem
“The only constant in life is change.”~ Heraclitus

[TERRA Operative]

Well, score is 2 for 2 so far...

The smashed up TDS644B I won on Yahoo Auctions turned up today, so I gutted it for parts (it was well not worth repairing, the chassis was actually bent from the beating it took, all PCB's are good, but the PSU is dead short, worth repairing though).

The old screen in the 744A shown below had blotches in the LCD shutter, so I stuck the colour CRT from the 644B in as a replacement and crossed my fingers, it works perfectly.

I did the usual option unlock, and I up-specced this one to a 784A for 1GHz goodness.
The NI GPIB-PCII/IIA GPIB card needed to calibrate these scopes came today too, so soon this unit will be calibrated to the full 1GHz once I get my SC504 fully operational.

I'm gonna get fat with all these winner winner chicken dinners....

[med6753]

What a difference targeted deoxit and exercising the switches makes. Yesterday this Type 1A1 plug-in was a train wreck. Today it is rock stable on both channels. Vertical gain is right on the mark and DC Balance easily achieved. Just completed checking compensation and both channels perfect on all Volts/cm ranges. No adjustments required. Apparently the General Electric cal lab took real good care of their stuff. The last calibration date was 1985. It is very unusual for me to find a vertical section that didn't need some touch up especially on compensation. They must have killed off all the Gorillas who like to twiddle settings. 

Currently displaying a 2MHz square from the Heath IG-4244.



Here's the current status of last Saturday's haul:

Both carts cleaned up. Will put them up for sale next week.
Type CA plug-in completed.
Type 1A1 plug-in completed.
Type 1A1 plug-in has a -150VDC short to be repaired and missing transistor which should arrive Friday.
Type W plug-in waiting on the 8416 vacuum tube which has been shipped and should arrive Monday.
Type 1A4 plug-in. Capacitors delivered and waiting re-cap.
Both Type 547 scopes waiting for cover removal and initial assessment. That will be Friday's activity.

That's all the TE for today. Heading over to Son's house later for Thanksgiving dinner. Today is NO DIET day. Will consume massive quantities of everything. 



 

[TERRA Operative]

What a difference targeted deoxit and exercising the switches makes. Yesterday this Type 1A1 plug-in was a train wreck. Today it is rock stable on both channels. Vertical gain is right on the mark and DC Balance easily achieved. Just completed checking compensation and both channels perfect on all Volts/cm ranges. No adjustments required. Apparently the General Electric cal lab took real good care of their stuff. The last calibration date was 1985. It is very unusual for me to find a vertical section that didn't need some touch up especially on compensation. They must have killed off all the Gorillas who like to twiddle settings. 

Currently displaying a 2MHz square from the Heath IG-4244.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/lpTKVP.jpg

Here's the current status of last Saturday's haul:

Both carts cleaned up. Will put them up for sale next week.
Type CA plug-in completed.
Type 1A1 plug-in completed.
Type 1A1 plug-in has a -150VDC short to be repaired and missing transistor which should arrive Friday.
Type W plug-in waiting on the 8416 vacuum tube which has been shipped and should arrive Monday.
Type 1A4 plug-in. Capacitors delivered and waiting re-cap.
Both Type 547 scopes waiting for cover removal and initial assessment. That will be Friday's activity.

That's all the TE for today. Heading over to Son's house later for Thanksgiving dinner. Today is NO DIET day. Will consume massive quantities of everything. 

Nice.