Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 35586605 times)

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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108750 on: December 11, 2021, 03:14:25 am »
I don't care about "warmth" or other adjectives being used by audiophools, because there is NO definition, what "warmth" means in terms of quantity.

Therefore: bullshit.

This kind of reasoning leads directly to esotericism, homeopathy, astrology, audiophoolery etc., or, in other words: bullshit.

EOD
*yawwwn*

Yeah, that is a horribly narrow-minded POV. Good thing we also have artists who actually know better, or there'd be nothing in the music world except robot-performed instances of Wagner, every recording of which sounded exactly the same. ;)

mnem
 :bullshit:

Nope, your POV is narrow-minded. Art is art, that's what it is. There is no art in claming things, which aren't there.
Today, we are able to measure things several order of magnitudes better than the best human ear can hear.
If signals are identical by measuring them and still claiming, there is a difference, is a complete ignorance in respect to science.
And THIS is narrow-minded, because science ALWAYS wins.

Having been born & brought up in a family of artists, it has been my experience that artists are pretty "hard-nosed" about what is "real" & what is not.
After all, many industrial processes, were pioneered by artists---for instance, metal casting began as ways for sculptors to produce large statues.
Da Vinci was both an artist & an engineer, as was Benvenuto Cellini (the latter was a bit of a scumbag, too, but that's off-topic!)

 
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Offline TERRA Operative

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108751 on: December 11, 2021, 03:45:54 am »
Hi all,
I have a small favor to ask of the USA located members...

I need some parts for my RG501 ramp generator, and have found a seller with the parts I need, but they are unable to send to Japan.
Is someone here willing to freight forward two small (small as in two chips) to me?
I'll compensate you via paypal and the Tektronix gods will smile upon you too. :)

Thanks!
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 

Offline Saskia

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108752 on: December 11, 2021, 04:40:31 am »
small update on the moving front: lugged down about a metric ton on Thursday. Loaded the van and Trailer and drove it up about 300 miles. unloaded most of the stuff yesterday with the rest to follow today including assembly of wardrobe. drive back later today to reload Sunday / Monday and drive back up. Need to empty that place ...
positive side note: the massive safe is already at ground level in the garage ...
Monday is payment due date for the house and Wednesday is handover date.
 
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Offline mansaxel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108753 on: December 11, 2021, 06:33:19 am »
I don't care about "warmth" or other adjectives being used by audiophools, because there is NO definition, what "warmth" means in terms of quantity.

Oh that's easy. For most music it equates to a few dB boost across an octave or so just below middle C (i.e. 120-240 Hz or thereabouts) ideally combined with a little frequency conscious peak limiting above around 4kHz.

We who dislike it call it boxyness.. A lot of speaker cabinet resonances are in that low-mid range and if they're insufficiently braced (like if the 'phool put the bracing wood as speaker cable supports) they'll colour the sound a lot. Also can make a small speaker sound a little larger, so there are some who like it from that.

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108754 on: December 11, 2021, 06:53:01 am »
These audio phools are supposed to have systems that failthfully reproduce the signals fed into the inputs, so that the signals exiting from the outputs faithfully reproduce the input ones but at a far greater power rating, would sound exactly the same be it valve or transistor, anything else is not true Hi-Fi as either something is being lost or added to the sound.

The audiofools cannot address one simple but important question.

Given an orchestra in an auditorium, where should they sit (or the microphones be placed) to hear the correct sound? In the wind section? By the conductor? In the first row, last row or somewhere else?

Person:
 
2 meters in front of the mixing desk. My favourite.

If acoustic, about or slightly less than halfway back on the stalls, in center. If there are balconies, not under them, and if on them, in the center, rather close to the front lip.   This all is from sheer averaging, and some cunning-ness. The stalls are most likely evaluated from about middle. Under the balcony is hopeless; cheap seats. Avoid. On balcony, if in front, is expensive seats with a lot of direct sound. Could work very well.

Microphones:

If done as a A/B or "Living Stereo" A/C/B recording (two or three Neumann pressure receiver (Kugel/Omni) mikes only), about 3 meters off the stalls floor, 1 to 4 meters apart (only so wide as 4 meters if A/C/B) and then move them back and forth until the desired balance between direct and reflected sound is reached. 

Since A/B stereo relies almost only on time to deliver spatial information, one can't go too wide unless one wants a greatly exaggerated stereo effect.  I once hung 2 Schœps omnis off the balcony to get audience sound; like 8m apart. Veeeeery wide applause. It worked well, because it put the audience in another spatial dimension than the performers on stage and the orchestra in the pit; both which were close-miked.

Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108755 on: December 11, 2021, 07:23:43 am »
Hi all,
I have a small favor to ask of the USA located members...

I need some parts for my RG501 ramp generator, and have found a seller with the parts I need, but they are unable to send to Japan.
Is someone here willing to freight forward two small (small as in two chips) to me?
I'll compensate you via paypal and the Tektronix gods will smile upon you too. :)

Thanks!

Alright USA gang. I've done international shipments numerous times for other forum members. It's time for someone else to pony up and help out TERRA Operative. Shipping the parts will involve a trip to least favorite places.....local PO....and filling out a ridiculous customs form. And you better be accurate on the form or US Customs will kick it back and you'll wind up paying double for postage.

So who's gonna volunteer? 
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108756 on: December 11, 2021, 10:18:20 am »
These audio phools are supposed to have systems that failthfully reproduce the signals fed into the inputs, so that the signals exiting from the outputs faithfully reproduce the input ones but at a far greater power rating, would sound exactly the same be it valve or transistor, anything else is not true Hi-Fi as either something is being lost or added to the sound.

The audiofools cannot address one simple but important question.

Given an orchestra in an auditorium, where should they sit (or the microphones be placed) to hear the correct sound? In the wind section? By the conductor? In the first row, last row or somewhere else?

Person:
 
2 meters in front of the mixing desk. My favourite.

If acoustic, about or slightly less than halfway back on the stalls, in center. If there are balconies, not under them, and if on them, in the center, rather close to the front lip.   This all is from sheer averaging, and some cunning-ness. The stalls are most likely evaluated from about middle. Under the balcony is hopeless; cheap seats. Avoid. On balcony, if in front, is expensive seats with a lot of direct sound. Could work very well.

Different? Certainly
Best? Possibly. But I suspect a specific auditorium's acoustics are important - e.g. the Royal Albert Hall is/was notoriously awful.
Correct? No single place is correct unless concerts are limited to having a very small audience!

Quote
Microphones:

If done as a A/B or "Living Stereo" A/C/B recording (two or three Neumann pressure receiver (Kugel/Omni) mikes only), about 3 meters off the stalls floor, 1 to 4 meters apart (only so wide as 4 meters if A/C/B) and then move them back and forth until the desired balance between direct and reflected sound is reached. 

Since A/B stereo relies almost only on time to deliver spatial information, one can't go too wide unless one wants a greatly exaggerated stereo effect.  I once hung 2 Schœps omnis off the balcony to get audience sound; like 8m apart. Veeeeery wide applause. It worked well, because it put the audience in another spatial dimension than the performers on stage and the orchestra in the pit; both which were close-miked.

I couldn't hear any difference anymore :(
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online Andrew_Debbie

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108757 on: December 11, 2021, 11:36:36 am »
Car failed MOT on front tyres. Plenty of tread left, but there were cuts down to the cord.    That's this month's and maybe next month's TE budget gone.

 

Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108758 on: December 11, 2021, 11:42:49 am »
Car failed MOT on front tyres. Plenty of tread left, but there were cuts down to the cord.    That's this month's and maybe next month's TE budget gone.

How did the tires get cuts down to the cords? Smacking curbs?   :-//
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108759 on: December 11, 2021, 01:31:13 pm »
Car failed MOT on front tyres. Plenty of tread left, but there were cuts down to the cord.    That's this month's and maybe next month's TE budget gone.


Sounds like pothole damage, I had the same issues, 4 new tyres  :palm: :rant:
Who let Murphy in?

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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108760 on: December 11, 2021, 01:31:55 pm »
Car failed MOT on front tyres. Plenty of tread left, but there were cuts down to the cord.    That's this month's and maybe next month's TE budget gone.

How did the tires get cuts down to the cords? Smacking curbs?   :-//
I suspect potholes was the culprit.
Who let Murphy in?

Brymen-Fluke-HP-Thurlby-Thander-Tek-Extech-Black Star-GW-Avo-Kyoritsu-Amprobe-ITT-Robin-TTi
 
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Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108761 on: December 11, 2021, 01:43:15 pm »
Car failed MOT on front tyres. Plenty of tread left, but there were cuts down to the cord.    That's this month's and maybe next month's TE budget gone.

How did the tires get cuts down to the cords? Smacking curbs?   :-//
I suspect potholes was the culprit.

Because of Brexit can't fix the roads?  :P :-DD

Or loss of tax revenue because the tea was tossed in the harbor?  >:D
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 01:45:35 pm by med6753 »
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Offline mansaxel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108762 on: December 11, 2021, 02:21:31 pm »

Different? Certainly
Best? Possibly. But I suspect a specific auditorium's acoustics are important - e.g. the Royal Albert Hall is/was notoriously awful.
Correct? No single place is correct unless concerts are limited to having a very small audience!

Yes, this of course is limited by the venue. Some have a very small sweet spot; I haven't experienced RAH, so can't tell. The good ones like the new DR Koncertsalet in Copenhagen are much less critical; most every seat gives good acoustic and visual experience.  In the same way as we start design and build of electronics by a simplified rule book, my suggestions were based on what usually works best, and more importantly, what does not.

This is a field where science has made some major progress in the last 40 or so years. The ability to emulate a design with a high degree of fidelity has done a lot to eliminate the bad venues from being built. Reflection and reverberation modeling makes it possible to play a room before it exists, and evaluate what designs will work and not.

I couldn't hear any difference anymore :(

How come? Auditory problems?

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108763 on: December 11, 2021, 02:24:03 pm »
Car failed MOT on front tyres. Plenty of tread left, but there were cuts down to the cord.    That's this month's and maybe next month's TE budget gone.

How did the tires get cuts down to the cords? Smacking curbs?   :-//
I suspect potholes was the culprit.

Because of Brexit can't fix the roads?  :P :-DD

Or loss of tax revenue because the tea was tossed in the harbor?  >:D

They sent me a video.  One is pretty obvious.  There are rust stains from the cord. The other is hard to see in the video. I'm trusting the tester here.  TBH I always replace tires in pairs.





Potholes or glass are my best guesses. Brexit has little to do with it.     Both front tyres had over 5mm tread left too.   



Both cuts are an MOT fail.  --> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/5-axles-wheels-tyres-and-suspension#section-5-2-3

The following criteria should be used when assessing a cut in a tyre:
  • any ply or cord that can be seen without touching the tyre - fail
  • if by folding back rubber or opening a cut with a blunt instrument, so as not to cause further damage, exposed ply or cord can be seen irrespective of the size of the cut - fail


A car with an MOT fail can not be driven except directly to a repair shop or retest.   



« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 02:28:21 pm by Andrew_Debbie »
 

Offline Robert763

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108764 on: December 11, 2021, 02:41:10 pm »
So I reached out to Delta Electronika for more information on the SM1540D PSU.
I received a very helpful answer including schematics that not only match the PSU I have, but are drawn so the circuit flow and functionality is a LOT easier to follow. 
Unfortunatly I seem to have come down with the 'flu. This is despite having had the jab. My head is so fuzzy there is no way I'm sticking my fingers or even test probes in a 600W PSU full of mains and 350V DC.
 
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Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108765 on: December 11, 2021, 02:41:14 pm »
That would fail New York State annual inspection criteria too. You are given a 10 day extension to fix and then inspect again.

I had all four tires fail on the Civic 2 years ago because of dry rot. Plenty of thread left but car was driven so infrequently that the tires started cracking due to age.   
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 02:43:50 pm by med6753 »
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108766 on: December 11, 2021, 02:45:28 pm »
Unfortunatly I seem to have come down with the 'flu. This is despite having had the jab. My head is so fuzzy there is no way I'm sticking my fingers or even test probes in a 600W PSU full of mains and 350V DC.

Could be a quick way to clear the senses...  ;D
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108767 on: December 11, 2021, 02:47:24 pm »

Different? Certainly
Best? Possibly. But I suspect a specific auditorium's acoustics are important - e.g. the Royal Albert Hall is/was notoriously awful.
Correct? No single place is correct unless concerts are limited to having a very small audience!

Yes, this of course is limited by the venue. Some have a very small sweet spot; I haven't experienced RAH, so can't tell. The good ones like the new DR Koncertsalet in Copenhagen are much less critical; most every seat gives good acoustic and visual experience.  In the same way as we start design and build of electronics by a simplified rule book, my suggestions were based on what usually works best, and more importantly, what does not.

This is a field where science has made some major progress in the last 40 or so years. The ability to emulate a design with a high degree of fidelity has done a lot to eliminate the bad venues from being built. Reflection and reverberation modeling makes it possible to play a room before it exists, and evaluate what designs will work and not.

The RAH is 150 years old :) IIRC in the late 60s or early 70s a pioneering application of such work was to improve its acoustics by adding the "mushrooms" on the ceiling. IIRC the first try wasn't up to much but the second was.

Quote
I couldn't hear any difference anymore :(

How come? Auditory problems?

Speech band: 110dB in one ear, -60-80dB in good ear. If good ear gets any worse I'll be eligible for a cochlear implant in the bad ear. Somewhat to my surprise, it appears you can teach old dogs new tricks :)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108768 on: December 11, 2021, 02:49:36 pm »
Car failed MOT on front tyres. Plenty of tread left, but there were cuts down to the cord.    That's this month's and maybe next month's TE budget gone.

How did the tires get cuts down to the cords? Smacking curbs?   :-//
I suspect potholes was the culprit.

Because of Brexit can't fix the roads?  :P :-DD

Or loss of tax revenue because the tea was tossed in the harbor?  >:D

I blame lazy/cowboy builders/trades too, had to have several repairs one year due to screws getting stuck in tires and found several more another year on the carpark of the flats my brother lives at, when they were replacing kitchens/bathrooms.
Also had a lot of wheel bearings/suspension bits replaced on one side only, due to crap roads.

David
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 02:51:22 pm by factory »
 

Offline Robert763

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108769 on: December 11, 2021, 02:56:16 pm »
You can still drive a car that fails it's MOT test as long as:
A/ the existing MOT certificate expiry date hs not passed. And
B/ No "Dangerous" faults recorded on the failure notice.
However since the computerised the results a check by Police will show it as a fail so you are at greaer risk of being stopped.
Even if the old MOT has expired, you can still drive home (if not a Dangerous fault) if you are going to rectify the fault at home.
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108770 on: December 11, 2021, 03:02:15 pm »
Something in the round-tuit pile that needs revisiting, the Yokogawa/HP 4350A high capacitance meter.
Is just a coincidence that this post appeared of page 4350 of this thread or was this deliberate timing?
Quote
This had multiple problems, most I suspect caused by a previous owner/users & a charged cap accident and the other a destroyed bias switch.
Damaged parts found included one of the op-amps, a transistor and burnt resistor, needs further investigation.
This is a nice little meter. I haven't had much trouble with mine after the usual replacement of tired electrolytics. I have found it fairly robust and haven't managed to damage it with charged caps.

One modification I have made is to reduce the size of the filter cap (A4C6) on the bias supply adjustment pot from 220u to 100u. With the original value cap the bias voltage indication on the meter considerably lags the actual bias voltage making it difficult to adjust the bias voltage without overshooting. Reducing the cap reduces the meter response lag making it much easier to adjust the voltage.

My next modification might be to replace the bias pot with a multi-turn device making it even easier to accurately adjust the bias voltage.

No coincidence, pictures are from few years back, I couldn't see much on web search for this model. so added a few more pictures than previous page number related posts.

It was bought as seen untested and with no test lead, thankfully the Hirose connectors used on these & some 4328A were still available at the time (probably still are, but not checked), I've yet to get it working after replacing several damaged parts, got very distracted by other TE.
I can't remember, but I suspect the smashed bias switch was due to bad packing/shipping damage.

David
 
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Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108771 on: December 11, 2021, 03:06:25 pm »
Works slightly different here. It used to be that the current inspection sticker was removed first, before performing the inspection. If the vehicle failed a temporary 10 day inspection sticker was affixed to the windshield.

Now those temporary stickers are not used. So what the shop is supposed to do is leave the old sticker in place, perform the inspection, and if the vehicle passes remove old sticker and install new. If vehicle fails leave old sticker in place. What some unscrupulous shops do is if your vehicle fails remove the sticker. You can't drive the vehicle without a valid sticker. So this forces you to allow those crooks to rape you as required for repairs.  ::)   
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108772 on: December 11, 2021, 03:06:45 pm »
The RAH is 150 years old :) IIRC in the late 60s or early 70s a pioneering application of such work was to improve its acoustics by adding the "mushrooms" on the ceiling.

Before, it was said that you would hear two concerts for the price of one.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 03:11:35 pm by Neper »
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108773 on: December 11, 2021, 03:07:12 pm »
You can still drive a car that fails it's MOT test as long as:

B/ No "Dangerous" faults recorded on the failure notice.
However since the computerised the results a check by Police will show it as a fail so you are at greaer risk of being stopped.
Even if the old MOT has expired, you can still drive home (if not a Dangerous fault) if you are going to rectify the fault at home.

The tyres were considered a "dangerous" fault.    . . . . .
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #108774 on: December 11, 2021, 03:10:57 pm »
502A

Started probing around the thing. Printed the jigsaw schematics, taped them back in one piece so I can actually read them... then did the same digitally so I can show it to you. Just because I am nice of course. Been reading a bit the theory of operation chapters in the service manual as well.

3AM so am tired, will try to make it short(er than usual).

First tested the trigger section. AUTO MODE somehow doesn't work, but I don't care for now because NORMAL mode works : I fed the calibrator signal to the lower beam, the one I suspect kinda works. Trigger circuitry can pick up on it no problem, it produces lovely text book pulses in return, I am very happy.

So these lovely trigger pulses then go to the " Time Base Generator " as Tek calls it. Schematic below. Checked the output for a sawtooth, no luck , zero signal, just DC. Then checked the input of the circuitry at the other end... trigger pulses go through an RC differentiator to turn the square pulses into pin sharp pulses/spikes. That part works fine. Then these sharp pulses are applied to the grid of the first tube in there, V135A, the input of  multivibrator.
checked the output of this thing, ie plate of V145A / R148 as highlighted on the schematic. I get no signal, just DC.
Now, this multivibrator can be turned of if you flick the big XY switch on the side of the cabinet, to " XY" mode instead of "swept" mode. In swept mode, what I want to see working, the "tail" of the multivibrator, the two cathodes, are connected via this XY switch, to the -150V rail. So I operated that switch to make sure I got a solid -150V, and I do. So no problem there.

So that's good news I guess, I narrowed it down. I have trigger, a good signal going to the sweep circuitry.. but no sweep.

I also noticed that the RECURRENT mode does not work either. This mode is new  to me, never seen it in any other Tek scope, must be a 502A special...
From what I understand from the schematic and the Theory of operation, it's supposed, in the absence of a trigger signal, to make the multivibrator free run, just like it does in the Trigger section when you select AUTO.
When I switch to RECURRENT mode,, as you can see on the schematic I am supposed to get a triangular periodic signal at the input of the multivibrator... but all I get is DC.

So either another problem, or just another hint to steer me in the direction of a common problem.

Happy for now, more tomorrow....

MISC, I noticed that one of the 3 HV tube rectifiers in the CRT section, has been replaced, no doubt about that... looks newer / cleaner than the other two, and the soldering job on the ceramic strips is hardly factory grade...


Good night.

Ah, that was same page I got too with mine, with the diode/transistor that failed, I did notice differences between my 502A and the pdf manual too.

Recurrent Mode is what all old scopes had for sweep before Tek developed this thing called "Triggered Sweep". In recurrent mode you should always have a free running sweep and therefore a trace on the CRT. If you don't then that's exactly where you need to concentrate your troubleshooting. As I stated prior....sweep first. Worry about any trigger issues later.

The two oldest hp scopes here (130A/150A) have that control labelled as trigger at one end and free-run at the other, your description of the recurrent mode on the Tek 502A is pretty much the same.

David
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 03:23:45 pm by factory »
 


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