Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[TERRA Operative]

Unfortunately Sigrok doesn't support any of my TE.

Learning a programming language is something I completely don't have time for currently, it's quicker to manually poke at the front panel buttons... I'm hoping for a really simple scripting tool I can use with minimal fuss.

[tggzzz]

Unfortunately Sigrok doesn't support any of my TE.

Learning a programming language is something I completely don't have time for currently, it's quicker to manually poke at the front panel buttons... I'm hoping for a really simple scripting tool I can use with minimal fuss.

You would have to learn two scripting languages and libraries.

One is the equipment's model, libraries and commands. The other is the (scripting) language and libraries (and possibly operating system config) used to peek/poke the equipment's commands.

The latter would be useful for other equipment. The former is single purpose.

[Vgkid]

Bought another calibrator , a bit of a lame duck(model numbers through me off) but it will be ok. Not as cheap as what I thought I was getting.

[AVGresponding]

All ranges equally?

A good question! I revisited the 87 to confirm...

The issue seems to be associated with the source resistance, broadly speaking.

I tried the same DC voltage ranges using an LB02A calibrator, an AD584JH reference, and a Wanptek DPS3010U power supply. The 87 read cleanly from the LB02A at 0.1V, 0.4V, 1.0V, 4.0V, 10V. The other two sources caused the reading to jump around.

With my 0.01% precision resistors, 100 ohms caused it to jump around. 1K jumped a smaller amount, and 10K and higher were stable.

So more like an external thing.
Maybe a probing issue.

Is it the same if you do the previous set again?

If it was an external influence you'd expect it to be worse on higher resistances, not better. I would suspect some contamination on the board, hopefully not from an electrolytic leaking, or possibly the rotary switch contacts are starting to fail.

I'm assuming that probing/lead jack issues have been eliminated.

[TERRA Operative]

The ol' HP 33120A function gen is a little drifty in some ranges during calibration, seems it needs some attention.

Luckily I can get the TQ2E-L2-5V latching relays readily available in Akihabara. Too bad the store only had half needed in one store the other is in their 'Yashiro' store. Luckily that store is halfway between me and Akihabara..

So, I have replaced the four relays in the attenuator section and now that is rock solid, next I'll get more to replace the remaining 3 or 4 in the rest of the unit and it should be rock steady once again for the calibration procedure.

I've seen tempco issues documented online for these relays when they get old in the Advantest R6142/6144 volt/current standards, so I'm glad it turned out to be a similar and simple swap in this unit too.

[Mr. Scram]

Good morning, all. Is everyone still alive and well in here?

Edit: I see quite a lot has happened to TEA since the last time I was here. Looks like all has not been well. 

[Vince]

I can't speak for others, but as for me yes, still alive.

I can't say that much for my computer power supply that died on me yesterday. Admittedly it was a cheap 40 Euro one, 15 years old and ran 24/7, so still good value for money I guess...
I cracked it open and replaced two bulged and leaky caps with 30 year old ones I had in stock that tested good. Worked fine... for about 20 minutes then it blew again... so went to the local computer shop and got a new power supply, pfff...  Those modern PSU are a huge pain : ALL the wires are black... so you have no easy, instant visual indication of what voltage is present on this or that wire, to make sure you are not doing anything silly.
The wires also don't come out of the PSU itself... instead they use a modular design where the PSU bears lots of proprietary connectors onto which you plug proprietary cables of all sorts, that they provide in the kit. There is no sticker on the PSU enclosure to give you the pinout of their freaking connectors, and no documentation in the box... it's all just, literally, a black box, black connectors, all black wires, it should be illegal. The mum who laid the engineer that designed that thing, should also be fined or jailed for her contribution to the on-going decadence of this world.

So my saturday was wasted, let's see if I can save my sunday and not make this week-end a complete waste...

TE : a cheap chinese component tester, and my Fluke 11 DMM, were used during this episode, which entitles me to speak about it here.

Sorry for the noise...

[Zoli]

I can't speak for others, but as for me yes, still alive.

I can't say that much for my computer power supply that died on me yesterday. Admittedly it was a cheap 40 Euro one, 15 years old and ran 24/7, so still good value for money I guess...
I cracked it open and replaced two bulged and leaky caps with 30 year old ones I had in stock that tested good. Worked fine... for about 20 minutes then it blew again... so went to the local computer shop and got a new power supply, pfff...  Those modern PSU are a huge pain : ALL the wires are black... so you have no easy, instant visual indication of what voltage is present on this or that wire, to make sure you are not doing anything silly.
The wires also don't come out of the PSU itself... instead they use a modular design where the PSU bears lots of proprietary connectors onto which you plug proprietary cables of all sorts, that they provide in the kit. There is no sticker on the PSU enclosure to give you the pinout of their freaking connectors, and no documentation in the box... it's all just, literally, a black box, black connectors, all black wires, it should be illegal. The mum who laid the engineer that designed that thing, should also be fined or jailed for her contribution to the on-going decadence of this world.

So my saturday was wasted, let's see if I can save my sunday and not make this week-end a complete waste...

TE : a cheap chinese component tester, and my Fluke 11 DMM, were used during this episode, which entitles me to speak about it here.

Sorry for the noise...

The ATX PSU's are using Molex mini fit junior connectors on both ends(speaking about the typical modular ones); and inspiration for colours had been taken from the car immobilizers .

[AVGresponding]

Good morning, all. Is everyone still alive and well in here?

Edit: I see quite a lot has happened to TEA since the last time I was here. Looks like all has not been well. 

As the saying goes, "shit happens", but the world goes on. Some chose to stay here, some went elsewhere, some have feet in both places now. If you want to catch up with those that left, they can be found on the Discord channel teatime and/or the teanonymous forum.

[factory]

Good morning, all. Is everyone still alive and well in here?

Edit: I see quite a lot has happened to TEA since the last time I was here. Looks like all has not been well. 

It's been more than a year since the split, guess you don't read this thread much?
In addition to the phpBB forum & discord, they had a groups.io going for a bit before the move to phpBB; https://groups.io/g/tea (where no pictures were hidden behind membership AFAIK  ).

David

[factory]

I can't speak for others, but as for me yes, still alive.

I can't say that much for my computer power supply that died on me yesterday. Admittedly it was a cheap 40 Euro one, 15 years old and ran 24/7, so still good value for money I guess...
I cracked it open and replaced two bulged and leaky caps with 30 year old ones I had in stock that tested good. Worked fine... for about 20 minutes then it blew again... so went to the local computer shop and got a new power supply, pfff...  Those modern PSU are a huge pain : ALL the wires are black... so you have no easy, instant visual indication of what voltage is present on this or that wire, to make sure you are not doing anything silly.
The wires also don't come out of the PSU itself... instead they use a modular design where the PSU bears lots of proprietary connectors onto which you plug proprietary cables of all sorts, that they provide in the kit. There is no sticker on the PSU enclosure to give you the pinout of their freaking connectors, and no documentation in the box... it's all just, literally, a black box, black connectors, all black wires, it should be illegal. The mum who laid the engineer that designed that thing, should also be fined or jailed for her contribution to the on-going decadence of this world.

So my saturday was wasted, let's see if I can save my sunday and not make this week-end a complete waste...

TE : a cheap chinese component tester, and my Fluke 11 DMM, were used during this episode, which entitles me to speak about it here.

Sorry for the noise...

These modular PSUs with plug-in black wiring looms are not new, I've had a Corsair one since 2011, but the motherboard loom is still hardwired with & multicolor wire. The crap Coolermaster PSU originally with the PC lasted only three years before Capxon failure.

I was going to say the PSU is now the oldest part of my PC, but I recently installed an IDE Superdisk floppy drive from 1998 to use with the two old Toshiba laptops & Yokogawa scope, trouble is none of the slimline drives in the laptops & scope are working, either belts have turned to sticky disintegrating mess and/or bearing lubrication has dried out.
Currently struggling to find somewhere local to buy small size flat belts, that advertises them by diameter/width/thickness etc, odd because O-rings can be bought this way easily.  None of the Chinese looking bulk lots on ePay give dimensions, which probably means none are the right size. 



This is the second of the two laptops, a Toshiba T4400C from 1993, there are leaking/peeing capacitors everywhere in this one, on the motherboard, in the floppy drive, one of the LCD boards, in the PSU brick.....





The batteries will be removed and I haven't attempted to power it up for a decade (don't want to risk further damage from conductive electrolyte), few extra pictures attached for anyone interested.

David

[TERRA Operative]

IMO there's no real need for coloured wires in a PC PSU anyway. The connections to peripherals are so standardised that there is no room for variation, so it's practically impossible to connect something incorrectly without effort.

[Vince]

Terra, that's no excuse ! Why REMOVE something that was useful... what do you GAIN from removing a useful feature ?

Save money ? maybe a tenth of a cent, I don't know, maybe...

My guess is that it is purely for aesthetic reasons.

ATX PSU's are used in large towers and it appears nowadays people like to have a transparent tower to see the components in it for some reason, to the point they now add animated RGB LED's to CPU fans, RAM sticks, mother boards, PSU... everything. The guts of their PC are now becoming the theater of a light show, a scene they like to watch. In these circumstances, having all black wires helps make the wiring "invisible", makes the scene look cleaner, and black offers an even nice contrasting colour/background that makes their light show stand out better.

Wait until these people start to want transparent dry walls in their house and live, neutral and earth wires will all be white... maybe then the electrician in you will start to understand the problem ?! 

When cosmetics override functionality and usability, convenience, ease of operation and maintenance.... it's very sad.  You gotta put the church back in the center of the village, as we say over here...

[Robert763]

I'm with Vince.
And another thing.. Emissions. how do thesse things pass RF emissions tests with big plastic windows? Most of the components will have been tested in a full metal case. The builders think just because all the parts are CE marked they don't have to do anything......

[Vince]

I think I am becoming more and more reasonable....I have just managed to resist an extremely tempting TE !
The me from 2 years ago would have jumped on it, and then only later thought about what he had just done....
... but the today me now is more reasonable...

Look at that, on Leboncoin.fr :

https://www.leboncoin.fr/bricolage/2406521891.htm

A super rare exotic hollow state Tek scope... a sampling scope with Nixie tube readout features.
I always dreamed of these.... and here it is.
I should not even know of this ad because as I said 2 or 3 months ago, I have decided to stop hunting for TE. I stopped checking that website.
and I kept my promise... BUT.... this evening a friend phoned me to tell me about it !

So of course I looked at it.... but I think despite this being a dream come true, I think I will pass.... following careful analysis of the situation 

- Price is 200 Euros very expensive.... but not a show stopper on its own, given the rarity and particular interest of the instrument.

But then when you add other factors in to the mix.... I decided to give up on it :

- No shipping, despite what the icon says at the top.

- Seller is 500kms from me. It would cost me as much as the scope, at least, to go pick it up.

- Sold "as is".

- No pics of the insides

- The first 3 Nixie tubes looks defective (but could just be the driver board)

- The last/rightmost tube doesn't even light up.... that's more concerning because it's a special tube that displays units along with prefixes = most likely unobtainium or ultra rare and expensive. It could be just the driver board, or a normal mode of operation of the instrument I do'nt know... but we just can't know so you have to assume the worst.

- It's a sampling scope / Mainframe but the scope part of the instrument is NOT fitted with the required sampling plugins, but rather with mundane general purpose plugins for a "normal" scope. So I would need to source the two required plugins, again I guess they are hard to find and expensive, then would need probably to be fixed which I am sure would be difficult if not impossible it it requires unobtainium fancy exotic parts.

- I am sure even if I could find these plugins, tehy would not come with the special probes required for proper operation, and find the probes would I am sure be again, very difficult and expensive, and yet they might need fixing and require impossible to find parts.

- If he used the scope with these incorrect plugins, maybe this damaged the mainfraime or readout plugin... more problems to fix.


So.... when you add it all up, it would cost mé 400 Euros to go get it, then I would still need to fix it, find an impossible to find Nixie tube, find two rare plugins and probes, that would need fixing I am sure, yet probably could never be fixed....
So I would probably spend 800 Euros total, yet still an unusable scope.

So I think.... I will pass. And instead fix one of my 547 scopes and try to find a sampling plugins and probe for it. Less thins to buy and fix, so more chances to get working setup and for less money and less work.

What do you think ?

Now to play devil(s advocate, I could be optimistic and assume the best scenario :

- Nixie tube work fine.

- Despite what Tekwiki says, maybe this mainframe can use regular / non-sampling plugins, which means I would not have a sampling scope but at least I would have a working scope with that super cool massive readout plugin with Nixies....

- Then once I get that working, later on I could add sampling plugins and probes if I ever come across affordable ones.

.... but that would still mean a 400 Euro upfront cost.... can't afford that right now... just paid property tax last week, for the first time.... that set me back 527 Euros ouch....

All I can do, is keep an eye on this ad. Maybe he will lower the price a lot over the coming months, if nobody takes it.
I can also ask him if he has the sampling plugins, because he does say he has lots of them, but doesn't list them.
I could also ask him questions about it, to inquire about the state of the nixie tubes.
I could ask him if he could get closer to me if he ever travels in my direction for whatever reason. Hols, work, family...

He also has, still for 200 Euros, a nice Tek type 565 in good nick with a trace on the CRT and ... blue phosphor, and dual beam. two vertical plugins including a nice one with diff inputs. Looks pretty nice.... I could offer him 300 Euros for both scopes maybe, see if he might accept that.
That would make the trip and deal much better value for money.




He also has a 585 and I want one of these... I have  a 585A but the face plate is completely washed out / discolored and I prefer a vanilla 585.
No ad for this one, it's only mentioned in his other ads, but no doubt he also wants 200 Euros for it.


He also has a 576 curve tracer !!!...... for a mere 950 Euros 

So overall.... scopes are way too expensive, nearly no pics, as is, yet require a 200 Euro trip to go pick them up.

So... no.

Still, I so wish I lived closer and his prices were more reasonable...

[tggzzz]

Having seen a working 567 with 6r1 plugin, all I can say is the ergonomics are stunningly good (except for the weight!) When you consider the available technology, they are astounding.

[TERRA Operative]

Terra, that's no excuse ! Why REMOVE something that was useful... what do you GAIN from removing a useful feature ?

Save money ? maybe a tenth of a cent, I don't know, maybe...

My guess is that it is purely for aesthetic reasons.

ATX PSU's are used in large towers and it appears nowadays people like to have a transparent tower to see the components in it for some reason, to the point they now add animated RGB LED's to CPU fans, RAM sticks, mother boards, PSU... everything. The guts of their PC are now becoming the theater of a light show, a scene they like to watch. In these circumstances, having all black wires helps make the wiring "invisible", makes the scene look cleaner, and black offers an even nice contrasting colour/background that makes their light show stand out better.

Wait until these people start to want transparent dry walls in their house and live, neutral and earth wires will all be white... maybe then the electrician in you will start to understand the problem ?! 

When cosmetics override functionality and usability, convenience, ease of operation and maintenance.... it's very sad.  You gotta put the church back in the center of the village, as we say over here...

Yeah, it's purely aesthetics.. Just the way it is these days with the gamers wanting their tacticool stealth designs festooned with RGB LED's....
I don't like the RGB LED's either, luckily the GPU I just bought has a bare minimum of that disco rubbish.
At least the modular PSU's help prevent too much clutter in the PC case and help improve airflow..

Also, re. that nixie Tek scope, I prefer the old Vince. Just buy first, think later... hahaha. 


On the TE front here, I ordered a few more relays for my 33120A today so that will be all buttoned up and mostly calibrated by the weekend (I still need a 8482A etc power sensor to do the output level adjustments).
I also just paid for a new levelling head for my SG5030 levelled sinewave generator after my last one died the death.

And, I'm currently bidding on a CG5011 calibrator in a 6-bay mainframe along with another SG5030 (which I'll sell off), hopefully I get it cheap.....

[duckduck]

What? No!

You're not supposed to sell gear, you are supposed to keep it when you buy the new thing!

We are all here for a reason, to support each other in the endless acquisition of gear! I cannot endorse or approve of this wanton and reckless act of removing a piece of TE from the collection! Harumph!


Well, ok, but only on one condition... That the funds acquired from this sale will be used for the sole purpose of acquiring new TE.

I took advantage of the "upgrade" exception to the TEA rule. Just walked in from selling my old scope and sat down and ordered a new Rigol DHO804. They can be hacked! You nuts on EEVblog make me so happy.

Thank you,hubert.
My DHO804 is DHO924 now.
Two extra drams are only for LA.It can be unpopulate if doesn't use the LA .
The bandwidth is increased successfully.it has 800ps rise time now.
And the memory depth is 50M now.

Additionally, Dave shows that you can use an external HDMI touchscreen and mouse with the scope:

The discussion on this scope is very active.

[TERRA Operative]

What? No!

You're not supposed to sell gear, you are supposed to keep it when you buy the new thing!

We are all here for a reason, to support each other in the endless acquisition of gear! I cannot endorse or approve of this wanton and reckless act of removing a piece of TE from the collection! Harumph!


Well, ok, but only on one condition... That the funds acquired from this sale will be used for the sole purpose of acquiring new TE.

I took advantage of the "upgrade" exception to the TEA rule. Just walked in from selling my old scope and sat down and ordered a new Rigol DHO804. They can be hacked! You nuts on EEVblog make me so happy.

Nice.

[factory]

Having seen a working 567 with 6r1 plugin, all I can say is the ergonomics are stunningly good (except for the weight!) When you consider the available technology, they are astounding.

At least it can be separated into several, not quite as heavy parts, some of the old HP boat anchors can't.

Vince there are plenty of pictures of the 6R1 on Tekwiki, I bet the symbol tube is dead, it's a Burroughs after all, I wouldn't expect anything less than one rusty pinned dead tube from them, question is the scope harder to find than spares?
Tek wiki seems to suggest the sampling plug-ins can be used on other 56x scopes, the seller seems to have a few of those 561s.

David

[m k]

Data Tech 30A stuff.
Presumption was that the thing is indicating something.

Keeping things will pay back, eventually, I have a Linotronic RIP front panel, it has four 7-segments.
Some study and ripping out some components and it's a simple multiplexed thing and data through LS245 to addressed LS374s and so on.
So some pin headers and voilà, the display is negative.

More panel components out, only one was almost unused, others looked so difficult that double LS04 inverter piggy-pack was the verdict.

So a soldering rehearsal and it didn't work.
First I mixed ins and outs, and connected them all, obviously, then when swapped them one output was left behind.
Finally it still didn't work, manually selecting segments was fine.

So an add-on of an add-on, SIL socket and pullup resistors, nope.
Then adding a single socket pin and pulldown resistors, still no cheese.

Then testing pulldown, 1k5 can pull them down but 1k65 can't, pretty much as it should.

Closer look of manuals next.
MK5002 to DI297N must pull up, driver is NPN.
Its pin 11, true/complement control is grounded, so common emitter operation.
Opposite is also available by leaving pin 11 floating, so pulling down should be there.
Then LS245, its input is old style, but LS04, it has a new, base connected input.

Then TI TTL Functional Index.
LS366 is available and pins are very close, but it's 16 pin, so a single socket pin add-on times four.
Luckily piggy-pack wasn't stuffed too tightly, and finally it started working.

Segment output between MK5002 and DI297N is ~2V up and ~1V down, so here is the reason, seems that it is not really pulling down.
Pin 1 is -14V and 28 ~3,9V, so pin 28 is too low, manual has 5V +/-10%, I had missed that this 14V must be present thingy is for the actual supply pin.
Driver tranny seems to be 2N50(3/5/9)8, v3 is TO-3, v9 is 10A, so v5 then, but picture is far from the other 5.
Actually it's 2N5088, I looked, after founding my almost half of a century old dentist's mirror, a solid solution, again.

When LS04 was used and was without power, using original LS245 connection between its data input and LS04 output wasn't a problem.
Now with LS366 from '81 the situation is different, segments may lit, but if not then touching power somewhere with handheld DMM connected lead will turn segments on.
If meter's HI input is touched with DMM's HI lead segments turns on, but release the contact and segments go off again, DMM's common lead has no effect here.
Better get that 5V to its correct level.

Volts and amperes of the meter are always showing 0000, dropping rapidly from low value when range is changed.
All ohms values are zero, not connected is 9999.
Battery check and 5M range is sometimes counting down from high value, DPs are not in use, eventually slowing the pace and being very slow when value is low, turning meter off for a moment doesn't start it over.
Other times battery check is just constant 9999, when changing from battery check to ohms a number 0185 is visible for a moment, maybe that is an actual measurement.
I'm quite sure I've seen different numbers earlier when display was negative, maybe I've broken something.

In the picture,
the reason why display connector on the left is elevated is that it's 3.96 spaced, edge connector is a wrongly spaced leftover from some other case.
Small transformers are intended to be an adjustable power supply for long term test of original display.
Now the used PSU for testing was earlier mentioned Labor MIM and it is just too much, few hours of testing there made consumption of 4V over 270k ohms, maybe it's nothing and all anodes are cut.
I've also checked few forensics (electro)phoresis PSU offerings, luckily they are too expensive, I've already used over 10x of the original meter price, shipping being more than a bit.
Transformers are not identical, one direction is 107% and other around 80%, wire pack is wallwart's original 6V regulator.
Intention is to use Elliot Sound Systems style adjustable HV DC Supply, regulator is supposed to be used as a low voltage supply for secondary stuff of HV supply.
First HV try was LR8 regulator, but none was available, something is arriving later, possibly all already preordered.
PSU is also supposed to use that China goods V and A display, it's just 100V, but div 10 will do the trick.

Other thing,
another UVC LED is here.
Earlier ROM chips were still blank, filled them again with zeros and blanked using the new LED, without any high current dimming.
One chip blanked couple minutes earlier, but other took maybe a bit more time for last few bits, used current was a bit under 17mA.
Seems that earlier LED didn't suffer much.

E,
some clarifications.

[m k]

either belts have turned to sticky disintegrating mess and/or bearing lubrication has dried out.

Pictured belt around a guide pulley is revealing.

[geb]

If it was an external influence you'd expect it to be worse on higher resistances, not better. I would suspect some contamination on the board, hopefully not from an electrolytic leaking, or possibly the rotary switch contacts are starting to fail.

I'm assuming that probing/lead jack issues have been eliminated.

When I received the meter, I cleaned the switch area of the PCB using 91% IPA. I've been using a mix of Chinese probes and US military surplus ones. I haven't explored the jacks.

The meter is functional, aside from this issue. I'm unlikely to explore it further unless I become bored. My employer is making sure that doesn't happen...

[factory]

...
Not really TE related, does anyone have any recommendations for an SLC type Compact Flash drive (around 1GB, 2GB), to replace a HDD in an old Toshiba 110CS laptop (1996 vintage)? I've done a re-capicide and failed to destroy it in the process. Oddly drivers for this laptop seem to still be available from Dynabook. 
I'm intending to use it with the Solartron 7081 DVM via RS232, haven't got room to setup an old desktop PC, plus they tend to be rather noisy and use lots of power.

David

If 256MB is enough, I have one lying around(winsystems cflash); PM if interested.

That is the sort of thing I'm after, just a bit larger capacity, the original HDD in the Toshiba 110CS is approx 800MB, the older T4400C laptop has a 527MB drive, which is in quite an inconvenient location. 

The Transcend Industrial CF170 series cards aren't too expensive and can be used as HDD replacements.

RS seems the only trustworthy place over here selling that brand, they only have CF180 (MLC type) or more expensive CF220 in the capacity I want.

Farnell have Delkin Devices C600, pdf shows made in the US, but Farnell states they are from Taiwan.  https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/3187168.pdf
Farnell also have Swissbit C-500 for a bit more ££. https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/3398809.pdf

I've not ordered anything yet, while I figure out what to do about the floppy drive belts.
Got issues with two capacitors that I ordered, apparently the legs of surface mount caps break off if you try straightening them to fit in place of through hole caps, plus they are flattened to be wider than the hole diameter.  It's PITA trying to find low profile caps for the power sub board, lots of incorrect data entered into Mouser & other sites.

either belts have turned to sticky disintegrating mess and/or bearing lubrication has dried out.

Pictured belt around a guide pulley is revealing.

The pictured belt is now in two rather sticky stretched pieces, I did some comparison and the pulleys are slightly further apart on the Citizen drive, compared with the newer Matsushita one. I also found another Citizen drive from a drowned Compaq LTE Lite laptop, not sure all the bits of the belt are present in this one (in many bits), plus connector is a different pin pitch.
Makes me wonder what drive is used in the Yokogawa DL1520L scope here, don't really want to take anything else apart at the moment.

David

[tautech]

@TERRA Operative
Do you have this SW in your archives to help my buddy Bravo ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/savecal5k-calibration-backup-disk-for-tektronix-tds5000-oscilloscopes/msg5066242/#msg5066242