Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 35885493 times)

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Offline W6EL

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135150 on: November 06, 2023, 04:35:27 pm »
Left off one photo, here it is. Lovely bit of black glue there isn't it...
 
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Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135151 on: November 06, 2023, 08:16:05 pm »
You know ESD bands work better around your wrist, right?  :popcorn:
 
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Offline EggertEnjoyer123

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135152 on: November 06, 2023, 10:57:22 pm »
I finally got the IDT 71256 RAM from China. (Interestingly, the package says that it's from Tuvalu).
After soldering it into the Tek AWG 2021, the unit passes self test and everything seems to work again.

There seems to still be an issue with the VRAM. Sometimes there's random lines across the screen, which seems characteristic of a VRAM failure. Too lazy to fix that one though.
 
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Offline TERRA Operative

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135153 on: November 07, 2023, 04:05:30 am »
Well, my SG5030 leveled sinewave generator is all adjusted and working properly now.
Found a couple things not right, some bad solder joins on the connector for the control and feedback signald from the leveling head and a couple other details, but now it works and adjusts really nice.

The other one I bought needs new caps on the RF board, and one cap leaked all over an opamp, so that will be replaced too.
A couple vias look a bit dodgy, so I'll check those out once I get the parts in my hands.

Not much to look at so no pics, imagine a sinewave generator working....

I'm also waiting on parts for my PS5010 precision power supply, and for the 3GHz option I'm building for my HP 53132A counter. I still have to tweak the latest version of the PCB to get the boards ordered.
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 
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Offline W6EL

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135154 on: November 07, 2023, 04:49:23 am »
You know ESD bands work better around your wrist, right?  :popcorn:

Yes yes, I assure you I was at least 3 meters away from the equipment when I took this photo... (well... maybe...)

In all seriousness, ESD can blow things like standard diodes, zener dioes, and bipolar transistors. Seen it happen. It's worth some level of caution. On that particular day it was dryer than usual and I got a few good zaps just walking around the house. Equipment sitting on a grounded discharge mat with a metal chassis also grounded is really unlikely to cause much trouble, so long as you don't make it worse with your wool socks, shag carpet, and a sweater...

Offline xrunner

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135155 on: November 07, 2023, 02:20:42 pm »
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135156 on: November 07, 2023, 02:42:17 pm »
Hmmm, I want to buy an Agilent N8482A power sensor for some calibrations/adjustments and measurements and stuff, but it costs 154,000yen (A little over US$1000).

Should I start a GoFundMe? :-DD
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

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Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135157 on: November 07, 2023, 02:45:06 pm »
Hey Vince (or anyone) do you want this Metrix sig gen?


Wrong side of the globe I think, shipping will be well above it's value ($50?)
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135158 on: November 07, 2023, 02:59:09 pm »
Hey Vince (or anyone) do you want this Metrix sig gen?


Wrong side of the globe I think, shipping will be well above it's value ($50?)

Yea I know where the parties are located but I can't say what value people put on things. People want what they want.  ;)
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135159 on: November 07, 2023, 07:54:39 pm »
Nice Generator that old Metrix indeed.... but indeed makes no sense for me to pay a fortune to import it.

It's very common here in France and worth 50 bucks / Euros and even at that price, nobody wants them.

Plus I can't buy boat anchors any more... ran out of space, no, seriously... if I ever buy another boat anchor then it would have to be something really exceptional.
Like my old Tektronix 575 transistor curve tracer, for example. If I find another one of those for parts, cheap and local, yes I would take it in a heat beat. But of course that will never happen so this is all rhetorical...

But a Metrix sig gen nah, just doesn't make sense.

I have its little brother a Metrix type 920. Much more compact / lighter, less features but same specs / performance (50MHz, AM) and design / era basically..... like new, overhauled, works fine... been trying to sell it for 40 bucks for months, no takers what-so-e-ver. I will soon give up and scrap it for parts  to reclaim the space   :(  If someone wants it.... paid 30 Euros for it, then paid 10 Euros to replace the oscillator tube with a NOS. My loss, your gain.

https://www.leboncoin.fr/bricolage/2417290980.htm




 

Offline factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135160 on: November 07, 2023, 07:59:39 pm »
Hi David,

Good catch with the "C".

I will probably start by replacing the PSU coupling capacitors. I'm seeing +100mV of ripple and that never helps. Plus it is an easy repair.

I noticed that the transistor in your board is different than mine. And, I also noticed that my oldest unit has yet another transistor there. My hunch is that it doesn't matter much either way. I replaced mine with a new one. The beta on the old one was 97, new one was 190. I also see that my newer two units have gold coatings on the PWB, whereas the older one I have, and yours, do not.

Speaking of the older unit I have (the one from the late 60s), check out these wirewound resistors at the rear of the attenuator. I'm surprised they would do this on equipment designed to work up to 10MHz. Despite that it does indeed work out to 15 MHz. I guess it was to custom make high-precision components.

And per your question, the older one does not have the needle flagging issue. Only the two newer ones. I am hoping I can just recap more and more and it'll go away. I've seen enough "HP 3400A Part 6" repair videos to know it can get tricky in there.

Also featured in this photo is "C2" with the cardboard cover removed. That's just glue in the photo. There's 300mV of ripple on the 10V rail that this cap serves, so it will get replaced with a modern cap.

--E
de W6EL

There will be a lot of small changes, such as that transistor, there are at least three different numbers used for Q201 over the years, some parts would have been changed as they became obsolete over the 20+ year lifespan of the 3400A.
Beware of PSU differences & the associated pass transistor (Ge & Si), two of mine had been messed with & were outputting incorrect voltages due to changes of transistor, some resistors & diodes have to change between Ge & Si parts, to get the biasing correct.

Your early one is the original 1963 design, looking at the date codes on components it looks to have been made in 1964, you are very lucky to have an early one with all original parts & that chopper board working fine.  ;). Possibly need to find a manual that more closely matches the serial number prefix.
Three of my five, have had the chopper board replaced in their working lives and of course the only early chopper board here is faulty. |O

None of mine are old enough to have those wirewound resistors, but I have seen them in the 3440A & 735A

That C2 capacitor is one where I usually cut the can down, drill the base to fit the new capacitor, then fit the card sleeve back in place.

Edit: I posted pictures of the four different chopper boards here, note the traces going nowhere, forming capacitance? on all of them.  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/hp-3400a-ldrs-replacement/msg5015905/#msg5015905

David
« Last Edit: November 07, 2023, 08:06:28 pm by factory »
 
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Offline W6EL

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135161 on: November 07, 2023, 09:10:01 pm »
Hi David,

I feel encouraged, thank you. I will try and keep the old one as original as I can stand to. It should be simple to stuff this (C2) capacitor inside the old housing, especially as the replacement cap is ~20% the size of the original (I did up the value and voltage rating a bit, because, why not).

All of my units feature several "antenna traces" on the Impedance Converter board. This must have been some kind of effort to create additional capacitance. In my case, the trace is mirrored below it, but I will need to verify if it's connected to the same thing or not. It really seems odd to do it this way, but then again, remember the engineers of the past twisting magnet wire into little ropes and using that to tune feedback on amplifiers. Perhaps they did that here as well, drawing out these lines until they saw the performance they needed to see. I am now more curious than ever as to exactly what they were thinking. It's just the sort of trace we very much like to avoid now days.

I'll follow up with some pictures later. For now, meetings. "The meetings will continue until productivity increases..."
 
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Offline RikV

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135162 on: November 08, 2023, 12:15:40 am »
I am afraid I'm infected too! In the last 10 months I bought over a dozen of TE's! Doughter-in-law asked: what will you do with all that? Is it of any use to you? I had no satisfying answer.
This aside. My latest toys on the way from Germany are Racal-Dana. A 9015 and a 9035. Both defective. No further onfo so far. Some docs would be helpfull, I found different manuals on the www (all identical, incomplete copies) but no schematics! Not available from the usual suppliers either. Can anyone help me out with the schematics???
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135163 on: November 08, 2023, 07:44:46 am »
I assume you checked http://www.ko4bb.com/ ?
 

Offline RikV

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135164 on: November 08, 2023, 09:30:41 am »
Yes, I did. Also "Bama". Any others you know of?
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135166 on: November 08, 2023, 11:36:50 am »
I've occasionally been lucky here:

https://elektrotanya.com/
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 

Offline m k

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135167 on: November 08, 2023, 11:40:54 am »
(dang, TERRA kicked my post to nowhere)

Underneath of meters is a step down isolator(SDI-CS), unused third Tf in front of it.
(from single battery offline UPS, 14V primary)
Weight is few kilos and middle size stuff, between it and Tfs for 180V supply, is missing.
It's dropping less than 10%, so most likely within the range.

Simpson on right must measure day in day out to stay in a ballpark, now it's monitoring AC for meters.
AC must be one the edge somehow since those meters are starting in sequence when cold.
Topmost is different and is a slowest starter, but all are showing left half first, measurements are already going on in the background.
Maybe that can teach something.

SDI,
these plastic boxes are almost very practical, this one is not deep enough.
Thick red is a center tap and source for step up side.
Using blue wire, lower original output, for input will rise output too much, or maybe not but I like it more this way.

Side note,
if nothing else then that robust test clip show its robustness.
(low left)

China goods 7660S DC/DC negative converters have also arrived, front bag with barcode.
Everyone is overheating without output, price was less than 1/10 of a real one, but minimum amount was 10.
Quantity over quality, or how was it.

Boost converter is also here, so meters initiation as real TEs is for the future, since long time test is already on and so PXP-GL construction is on hold.
Voltage is around 188V and divider for voltmeter is set to 1.2mA, what is also a real consumption.
Currently connected are plus sign and keep alive.
Voltage over 150k limiting resistor can be measured against anode to be around 3V, against GND it disappears, but is still clearly more than nothing.
Don't know what this 20uA means, maybe cathode is so poisoned that this is all that can go through.

Obviously RS order is also here, and incomplete.
Capacitors came but regulators were dropped to backorder, January something.
Maybe I can add something without new P&P.

One other thing,
how do you differentiate panel display LEDs from not LEDs?
(both are pretty red when they are red)
I've used segment shapes and DP positions, it's obviously enough for these SP-things, but how it is with others.
Calculators seem to use single tubes or single full width modules.
(few expensive exceptions)

For now I think the 30A display will be somegraded.
Options are, for now, a VFD and other style of GDD.
LEDs would be too lame, for now.

One thing I did't understand first was minus and plus sign currents for 30A display.
Minus sign and DP are the same 135uA typical, but only DP is pulled through typical 270k giving ~167uA.
Minus sign has 62k, but it also goes through 2N5550 to ground and _POLEN is equally switched to GND.
DP tranny base is 5V through 100k so ~50uA when minus tranny has the same base resistor but from TTL output high.
If that output is say 3V it's still plenty for burning the segment, hFE 10 would already give Ic ~300uA.
Plus sign has higher limit but its tranny has also less than half of a collector resistor.
Then I read the manual and it's clearly a multiplexing thing, sort of.
Segment max is 250uA but can be increased to 650uA if multiplexed up to 1/4 duty cycle, says the manual.
But those resistor values are still too small, around 50%, and DP has also that same multiplexed anode.
Maybe I should test the display based on active current.
Seems that those panel meters have a change to do some real stuff alter all.
If I take the current route I obviously need a current limiter, clear case for under a volt measurements.

Then a historical anecdote,
Burroughs was greedy and wanted too much royalties, so Japanese companies created VFD.

And another other thing,
earlier blanked EPROMs are still blank, so pretty decent UV-lamp is that LED.

Then the last other thing,
one set of 3.81 spaced PCBs arrived.
Actually was only 1 of 5 and a wrong one.

E,
last picture was missing.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2023, 02:52:35 pm by m k »
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Precision-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Schneider-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
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Offline RikV

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135168 on: November 08, 2023, 01:06:41 pm »
thanks a lot, guys. Found a complete version and will upload it to K04B. (I suppose I can do that without offending the original poster?)
 

Offline m k

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135169 on: November 08, 2023, 02:51:02 pm »
Better everywhere than nowhere.
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Precision-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Schneider-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
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Offline W6EL

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135170 on: November 08, 2023, 05:06:14 pm »
I think VFDs are beautiful. What are you building, m k?

Here are some photos (late 60s unit) of the top and bottom of the impedance converter board in the HP 3400A.

The antenna traces appear to be ground, both on top and bottom. I guess this is some hollow attempt at a ground plane? The board features a "pour" already, so why they went with little traces to nowhere is beyond me. They would raise the capacitance coupling between adjacent traces, so maybe they're trying to filter high frequency noise out from the power rails without requiring a small cap?

Offline W6EL

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135171 on: November 08, 2023, 05:36:38 pm »
Just for fun, here is the HP 3400A impedance converter board with the top and bottom as layers. Opacity is at 90% on the top. I often do this to help understand layouts. It's most useful when you have the slider available and can just slide between top and bottom view.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2023, 05:38:15 pm by W6EL »
 
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Offline TERRA Operative

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135172 on: November 08, 2023, 11:09:36 pm »
Maybe they are guard traces?
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

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Offline m k

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135173 on: November 09, 2023, 11:03:46 am »
Dang, can't insert those pictures.

I think VFDs are beautiful. What are you building, m k?

Power supply for gas discharge display module tester, panel meters are sort of an error, I thought their display modules are smaller and so suitable for Data Tech meter that has very dim versions, now I think they are actually very useful, meter shortage is always near with prototypes.
The PSU is 180V, few mAs and a nasty bugger, I should have accepted from the start that a decent regulator is a must.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/?action=dlattach;attach=1901010;image
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/?action=dlattach;attach=1877674;image

Then if test fails the process turn to an alternative display solution for the meter.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/?action=dlattach;attach=1864690;image

Maybe AVG can send me one or two GDD test subjects for the future, I read that he may have some.

I'm not familiar with mega class resistances, so first I lost few days before I realized my handheld DMM is overloading the circuit.
Pictured *191V* is a measured value, and I also wasn't able to connect the dots after DMM overloaded the test rig, 0V over limiting resistor to GND.
Before that I already gave up calculations and started trials and errors with resistor values.
One time I even wondered that trannys are backwards and I'm seeing some weird cutoff thingies, as the base current is not very much.

Next I added max currents to those trials.
All currents here are so small that keeping divisions around safe level for GDD is not very steady thing.
But having two stages and pulling secondary raw voltage down in the middle seems to be doable.
This way input fluctuation is around 20V, when max current is less than 4mA.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2023, 11:23:44 am by m k »
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Precision-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Schneider-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
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Offline W6EL

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135174 on: November 09, 2023, 06:39:41 pm »
Maybe they are guard traces?

I think that may be it. Seems a bit misguided the way they did it though.  :-//


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