Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Vince]

Well the Airbus A350 that hit a DHC-8-300 in Japan stood up very well.

Well, now it's burnt to the ground, you can't see how poorly made it was in the beginning... fire is convenient as it destroys all evidence 

Just because a part has non-conformities does not mean it is dangerous. That is why there are concession processes to check. I guess Vince deals mainly with the non-conforming parts and does not see the millons of parts that don't have concessions...

Sure. But poor workmanship is not covered by concessions, it's considered acceptable. We only raise concessions when the shit hits the fan and it stinks too much for people to dare hiding.
I have been in quality inspection, structure / airframe side from day one, 12 years ago, both the assembly of the structure, or the manufacturing of individual parts (because we have two sites here in Saint-Nazaire, so I work at both).
I do work on concessions, especially right now all day long, but my first few years I worked on inspection, checking every single work order on every single aircraft (again, only the structure / airframe), so no bias there. I saw it all, no cherry picking.... Sample size was 100%.

Just because the concession allowed the parts to be used,  or the airframe / assembly to get a green flag, doesn't mean it's good... all it means is it's a piece of crap that got accepted because the A/C needs to be delivered on time and there is no way they would swallow the cost of redoing the work or replacing the part. Every day it's money money money...

Just because a lada has 4 wheels and drives... doesn't make it a well built car... it '"drives", just like A/C "fly"..

There are wagons-full of concessions on every single A/C, but the customers only see 1% of them, those tagged with a 'C' suffix. Worked last year precisely on  those, putting together a "case" to present the customers with the biggest horror stories on their A/C, when they come here to OK the delivery (or not). I had  some concessions literally 50 pages long...they butchered the A/C big time there, just because they let a total newbie do something on his own, for which he had not even been trained at all, he improvised the best he could... didn't work well.
It's fun trying to present a butchered A/C to the customer and find ways, careful wording, to try to make it look like it's not as bad as the concession makes it look... and try to make him believe that it was just bad luck when in fact every A/C is affected but his so happened to be more affected than the others so we couldn't hide it... and also try to fool him into thinking that we spent 3 months investigating the root cause of the problem and would spend millions to implement solutions to make sure the same mistake never happens again.... when in fact nothing is ever done to improve things. It's truly disheartening, discouraging.

I can't detail 12 years working here, it would make for an entire book of stories, it's not the place of course... but suffice it to say that the only people I meet that think building an A/C is super serious, super accurate down to the micron, super strict, super high-tech, super everything....are people who never worked at a manufacturing or assembly plant, boots in the A/C all day long. But the people who do work at these plants, done 3 of them, all major Airbus sites, are all on the same page : they don't take this business seriously anymore because Airbus itself doesn't take it seriously. People do what they have to do and no more. They know they can't make any difference, they know problems will never be fixed, nothing will be improved, so they just don't care anymore, because they know from long experience, that it's hopeless, a waste of time and energy. Working at Airbus is the surest and quickest way to lose the passion ! When dreams meet reality

It's like building a house : you do NOT want to follow the construction too closely, like I did, because then you will see all the horrors and poor craftsmanship and mind boggling mistakes that get done, and will meet workers that admit to you that they don't even read the drawings, and just build your house as they feel like, rather than how the drawings say it should be. First hand experience...
BUT... if you only come to see your house once it's all finished, you get the "wow" experience and it fools you.

Same for A/C... customers sees only a tiny fraction of what happened to his A/C during manufacturing (or else he would refuse to pay for it...), and once it's all assembled, painted, and the interior / cabin is equipped, you don't see much of the (bare) airframe anymore, it's all conveniently hidden ! All you see is a shiny white A/C that makes you feel good... just illusions.

What saves A/C is quality control during manufacturing, then later once it's in operation, preventative maintenance / regular inspections to discover problems before they cause catastrophic events. The A/C being over-engineered helps as well, so does the fact that usually passenger A/C are flown weeeell within their flight envelope, pilots/companies don't do aerobatics with them of course...

When you add all that yeah, it reduces the risks enough to make the A/C okay to fly in, I guess. Statistics say so anyway, I admit... 

Sorry for the noise...

Vince, long disillusioned...

[tggzzz]

As I'm halfway through a layover on my way back to Japan.....

Thanks Vince! hahahaha

And he is telling you the sunny side of the story! No one mentioned Boeing yet!

Heaven forbid.. the Osprey comes to mind.

Isn't the motto now "if it is Boeing, I ain't going"?

in

Another example why...
Boeing Wants FAA To Exempt MAX 7 From Safety Rules To Get It in the Air
https://m.slashdot.org/story/423407

[TheDefpom]

I have been pulling my (receding) hair out trying to figure out WHY a bit of gear I am working on is faulty... it is a HP3406A.

The service manual gives example scope waveforms which I am finding to be a bit odd, they show a positive and negative going waveform (as image 1,2, 6), but I am only getting either the upper or lower half (depending upon the test point, upper for 1, lower for 2, 6) even when allowing for the fact I am using a digital scope and bringing the timebase all the way out to see dozens/hundreds of pulses, there should be opposite pulses too, there are none, I cant find any bad components, including inside the probe itself... the transistor voltages all check out too, at least they do for a full scale reading, which it is doing... I just cant figure out WHY.

The unit didn't show a full scale reading at all until I cleaned the attenuator switches, then it shows full scale fine.... but now it shows full scale ALL of the time...

Anyone have a 3406A to probe it and show methe waveforms with the probe in the cal port both with cal on and off?

[tautech]

Be sure to use some Persistence Scott

[TheDefpom]

The unit samples an AC (RF) waveform using irregular pulses to get random samples, so it should be seeing positive going and negative going pulses depending upon the point on the AC waveform as it pulsed.

I should be seeing a mixture of pulses when the timebase is set to show hundreds of pulses surely, even without persistence being turned on as they should be there... am I going mad or is the manual wrong ?

[Robert763]

Just got the lot pictured below (among a few other items from a scrapper) for cheap because never heard of the brands and thought it might be interesting to check out.

But I cant seem to find any manual nor documentation for the RiS Supercal XT (Model CL6100). I believe they were bought out by Ametek but there are no manuals there either for this thing.

PS: All items appear to work, after some quick testing and quick wipe down, which is a nice surprise.

I think this got lost in the aircraft noise...

Very nice haul. Jammy git if scrap prices. The calibrators and Fluke DC clamp are expensive bits of kit. Have you tried The internet Archive / Wayback Machine for the Supercal? If you can get any ides of their original web URL they may have something cached.

[Robert763]

I have been pulling my (receding) hair out trying to figure out WHY a bit of gear I am working on is faulty... it is a HP3406A.

The service manual gives example scope waveforms which I am finding to be a bit odd, they show a positive and negative going waveform (as image 1,2, 6), but I am only getting either the upper or lower half (depending upon the test point, upper for 1, lower for 2, 6) even when allowing for the fact I am using a digital scope and bringing the timebase all the way out to see dozens/hundreds of pulses, there should be opposite pulses too, there are none, I cant find any bad components, including inside the probe itself... the transistor voltages all check out too, at least they do for a full scale reading, which it is doing... I just cant figure out WHY.

The unit didn't show a full scale reading at all until I cleaned the attenuator switches, then it shows full scale fine.... but now it shows full scale ALL of the time...

Anyone have a 3406A to probe it and show methe waveforms with the probe in the cal port both with cal on and off?

Have you stopped the sweep by grounding collector of A3Q6 per * note on page?

I assume power supplies are OK.

Robert.

[Robert763]

If it's Boeing MAX I'm Definately not going....
https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/656760-alaska-airlines-737-900-max-loses-door-flight-out-pdx.html

[Zoli]

Last summer, I've saved a locally made lab supply from metal recycling: Anatek Model 25-2D(manufactured: 28-Jan-1980 - date stamped inside the chassis); scan of the manual is on the web, and as expected for that age, schematics and parts list included. It was completely functional; the only issues was a blinking neon light(due to age) and a flaky current limit adjusting pot on the right channel(which channel looks like had a lot more use the the left - see caps). The capacitors are within specs, no need to replace them; the tantalum running on ~10V, and is rated for 35V; storage/buffer capacitors: right channel 4.7mF, left channel 5.6mF.
Replacement parts: the original neon is on fleabay, but $15 for a pair plus $25 shipping - just no; get a mechanically and electrically identical from Mouser for ~$8. Pot: the original Bourns model is still available(updated to ROHS), but on the damn expensive side($20CAD for a single turn).
After replacing the parts, I've checked the noise - pretty close to the original spec(700µV measured vs 500µV specified; the spec didn't states the measurement bandwidth) - not bad for a 44 years old instrument in (almost)original state. Overall, I'm happy, since one cannot have enough power supplies.

[m k]

From messing about with an old computer at work, there are some very obsolete standards that modern monitors refuse to work with, but the oldest working CRT monitor we had at the time did work. All history now, as the PC & monitor were trashed by my wasteful employer.

David

For old resolution pictures a truly adaptive adapter would be nice.
Maybe HD and HDMI out and sort of what ever in.

Amiga had quite high pixel rates and overscan over three decades ago.
So maybe 1280x1024 input is needed, but hardly faster than 60Hz.
That's around 80M pixel clock for progressive style, so maybe 50M is enough.
Doubled 720 H was also available quite early, but vertical was less.
So standard 8bit ADC x3 and some memory, maybe 4th slower one for outer parts of composite signal.

If output is always known the OSD is an easy stand alone setup method.
Then if input sync possibility is what ever only geometry and position settings are needed from that side.
Obviously physical input signals can't be what ever, but luckily that is not needed either.

Triple buffer also, of course, since nowadays practically everything is available.
But not this, it seems, all are too concentrated to something.
For example uncommon LCD formats are completely missing and adding them would be quite easy, they are nothing special, just uncommon.
Pre VGA PC stuff is pretty much the same, though some had more speed.

[watchmaker]

I do not know if I belong but I have an affliction where I find myself just gazing at the VFDs and my blue backlit LCD on my 3478.  I also find myself buying things "just because".  Like an Agilent u1252A "just because" it was $125 (perfect except battery lock needed new plastic pin).  Or a Phillips PM 2525 which I like because of the motorized switch.

I also love precision measurement ( I work down to 500 microMeters).

OK.  My question is about isolation transformers (ad nauseum, I know).  But when I was young we used em.  But those were the same days in which I subscribed to subscription kits advertised in Pop Elec that had you build different tube ckts on a cardboard platform with perfboard (I wonder why they stopped making those?).

So I am aware accepted practice changes as a result of incident post mortems.  I was taught you only needed to isolate the DUT.  But I read a post here that even the TE to be used must be isolated.  Then I read another post that said the use of isolation transformers is no longer an accepted industry practice.

I work in an area where risk mitigation is high on the list (tree felling).  So I have no interest in being a "he-man" nor am I risk averse.

I am well and truly confused.

Here is a scenario.  Using a scope on an old TV (imaginary) by following the signal from the tuner.  Good earth grounds on all equipment.  Bench is covered ESD rubber surface.  Rubber on floor.

Isolate the TV or no?
Isolate the TV AND the Scope?
No isolation at all and know what you are doing (differential probe is best, but maybe not available?)

Using a DMM

Isolate the TV?
Isolate TV and Bench mounted DMM?  Leave the DMM earthed?
Use the Agilent 1252A?

Role of hand coverings?  Nitrile, rubber, etc

What are the authoritative sources for best practices? Ideally from industry trade associations that derive these practices from existing regulatory bodies (code and workplace safety).

Thanks!

[zrq]

There is a Keithley 2001M in Switzerland for a good price (no affiliation), which is pretty rare. Even considering the shortcomings of the Keithley 2001, at CHF 400 it's still a good buy.

https://www.ricardo.ch/de/a/tisch-multimeter-keithley-2001m-75-digit-1249531596/

[Vince]

Except the price is NOT 400 ! It's an auction, 400 is merely the starting price... god knows how much it will actually go for when the hammer falls in 24 hours from now...

[Robert763]

I do not know if I belong but I have an affliction where I find myself just gazing at the VFDs and my blue backlit LCD on my 3478.  I also find myself buying things "just because".  Like an Agilent u1252A "just because" it was $125 (perfect except battery lock needed new plastic pin).  Or a Phillips PM 2525 which I like because of the motorized switch.

I also love precision measurement ( I work down to 500 microMeters).

OK.  My question is about isolation transformers (ad nauseum, I know).  But when I was young we used em.  But those were the same days in which I subscribed to subscription kits advertised in Pop Elec that had you build different tube ckts on a cardboard platform with perfboard (I wonder why they stopped making those?).

So I am aware accepted practice changes as a result of incident post mortems.  I was taught you only needed to isolate the DUT.  But I read a post here that even the TE to be used must be isolated.  Then I read another post that said the use of isolation transformers is no longer an accepted industry practice.

I work in an area where risk mitigation is high on the list (tree felling).  So I have no interest in being a "he-man" nor am I risk averse.

I am well and truly confused.

Here is a scenario.  Using a scope on an old TV (imaginary) by following the signal from the tuner.  Good earth grounds on all equipment.  Bench is covered ESD rubber surface.  Rubber on floor.

Isolate the TV or no?
Isolate the TV AND the Scope?
No isolation at all and know what you are doing (differential probe is best, but maybe not available?)

Using a DMM

Isolate the TV?
Isolate TV and Bench mounted DMM?  Leave the DMM earthed?
Use the Agilent 1252A?

Role of hand coverings?  Nitrile, rubber, etc

What are the authoritative sources for best practices? Ideally from industry trade associations that derive these practices from existing regulatory bodies (code and workplace safety).

Thanks!

As you say practices change. In this case it is due to incidents with old practices and also the avaiability of new technology.
If you use an isolation transformer for shock protection then ALL equipment being used must be isolated from mains earth. Ideally there should not be any earthed conductive items in reach.
The new technology includes earth leakage circuit breakers and test equipment with fully isolated inputs e.g. Tek THS700 series 'scopes.
Very difficult to give specific advice without knowing the EXACT set-up i.e a site vist.
Generically use a earth leakage circuit breaker and take care. Do Nnot use an isolation transformer.

Robert G8RPI.

[watchmaker]

Wow.  Thanks.  Any links to trustworthy sources?  I am not going evangelical, but this comes up quite a bit.

So for my setting?:

Isolate BOTH the TV and the scope.  Rubber floor.  Be well out of reach of an earthed appliance (this means I do not have space yet).  Keep one hand in pocket.  (Can still burn the other).

I started this line of questions because I read the dangerous DMM thread.  It is clear personal safety has come a long way; both in standards and in user values.

Pity the Arduino user who does not check out high energy work.  I would no longer even use a Simpson 260 for house voltages.

[EggertEnjoyer123]

I got lucky and someone on the HP test equipment email group had a spare E4406A power supply that he was willing to send me for the cost of shipping.

Guess I no longer need to design my own.

[watchmaker]

I do not know if I belong but I have an affliction where I find myself just gazing at the VFDs and my blue backlit LCD on my 3478.  I also find myself buying things "just because".  Like an Agilent u1252A "just because" it was $125 (perfect except battery lock needed new plastic pin).  Or a Phillips PM 2525 which I like because of the motorized switch.

I also love precision measurement ( I work down to 500 microMeters).

OK.  My question is about isolation transformers (ad nauseum, I know).  But when I was young we used em.  But those were the same days in which I subscribed to subscription kits advertised in Pop Elec that had you build different tube ckts on a cardboard platform with perfboard (I wonder why they stopped making those?).

So I am aware accepted practice changes as a result of incident post mortems.  I was taught you only needed to isolate the DUT.  But I read a post here that even the TE to be used must be isolated.  Then I read another post that said the use of isolation transformers is no longer an accepted industry practice.

I work in an area where risk mitigation is high on the list (tree felling).  So I have no interest in being a "he-man" nor am I risk averse.

I am well and truly confused.

Here is a scenario.  Using a scope on an old TV (imaginary) by following the signal from the tuner.  Good earth grounds on all equipment.  Bench is covered ESD rubber surface.  Rubber on floor.

Isolate the TV or no?
Isolate the TV AND the Scope?
No isolation at all and know what you are doing (differential probe is best, but maybe not available?)

Using a DMM

Isolate the TV?
Isolate TV and Bench mounted DMM?  Leave the DMM earthed?
Use the Agilent 1252A?

Role of hand coverings?  Nitrile, rubber, etc

What are the authoritative sources for best practices? Ideally from industry trade associations that derive these practices from existing regulatory bodies (code and workplace safety).

Thanks!

As you say practices change. In this case it is due to incidents with old practices and also the avaiability of new technology.
If you use an isolation transformer for shock protection then ALL equipment being used must be isolated from mains earth. Ideally there should not be any earthed conductive items in reach.
The new technology includes earth leakage circuit breakers and test equipment with fully isolated inputs e.g. Tek THS700 series 'scopes.
Very difficult to give specific advice without knowing the EXACT set-up i.e a site vist.
Generically use a earth leakage circuit breaker and take care. Do Nnot use an isolation transformer.

Robert G8RPI.

So this guy is spot on.  Differential probe.

Given the nature of DSOs like the Siglent, I wonder if it is possible to build a battery to provide power on a temporary basis?

[tautech]

With an inverter from a battery supply, yes.

[EggertEnjoyer123]

You could also use a normal scope if you don't have a differential probe. Connect two probes to both sides of the component you are trying to measure across and use the math functions of the scope to find the difference. The frequency response probably sucks and it doesn't work well if the common mode voltages are very high compared to the differential voltage, but it's better than nothing.

[tautech]

You could also use a normal scope if you don't have a differential probe. Connect two probes to both sides of the component you are trying to measure across and use the math functions of the scope to find the difference. The frequency response probably sucks and it doesn't work well if the common mode voltages are very high compared to the differential voltage, but it's better than nothing.

For the odd occasion this works just fine with lower frequencies.
Still a proper differential probe is the best solution and an investment that can work with whatever scope you have, even if you later update it.
Same with current probes but just be sure to select one that doesn’t tie you into a brand.

[m k]

Pity the Arduino user who does not check out high energy work.  I would no longer even use a Simpson 260 for house voltages.

You're misreading something.
Nowadays practically everything is mains isolated.
The situation is like a flower, center is grounded and other ends are swaying in the winds of ElectroMagnetic field.

Extra isolation of DUT is extra protection of you.

Old TV is an exact example where extra isolation is needed.
Keyword here is old, since old enough TVs may have a live grounds.
It means that your TV ground can be literally L, depending the polarity of the mains plug.

Your measurement is referenced, there's no other way.
If your probe is differential then that reference is isolated, if not then it's hard wired.

If you measure with hand held DMM your probe can be hard wired, but it is floating, like a freed petal in the wind, but it still needs an isolation of some sort.
Only probe tip is conductive, all other parts are coated with something not conductive, so you are protected against possible hazards of the measurement.

The case is very different if your equipment has an external metal frame.
You can still easily die with that metal frame, no matter how much is isolated, but with mains isolation that easily is less easy than without mains isolation.
With mains isolation the normal situation is so that at least two faults must happen before situation becomes dangerous.
With DUT the situation is not normal.

The actual measurement is different, a machine doesn't care where Neutral is, if measurement can be done then so be it.
Some measurements must also be done with not PE grounded measuring apparatus, there extra caution must be taken if external frames are conductive and reference is hard wired.
In those floating cases frames are still mostly grounded, but nobody knows how far from PE ground that is.
Everything is still ok until that second fault happens, so do not have a conductive floor, rubber shoes are not enough.

What is isolation here.
One is a galvanic disconnection, so every machine with galvanically isolated mains transformer secondary.
Double protection is the next level, there the whole machine is floating and its external parts are electrically insulated.
Since double protecting the whole area is many times a practical impossibility always have a good PE available.
Back in the day PE connection used to be a law for repair shops around here, so no 2-prong wall jacks were allowed, only exception was a floating DUT behind an isolation transformer.

Old household standard was that floating wall jack was allowed if all PE ground points were far enough.
Problem there is that extension cord can easily change that and a user is possibly not in the know.
That environment was also good for mains hum in audio devices, solutions were flipping mains plugs and grounding to somewhere.

[Robert763]

You could also use a normal scope if you don't have a differential probe. Connect two probes to both sides of the component you are trying to measure across and use the math functions of the scope to find the difference. The frequency response probably sucks and it doesn't work well if the common mode voltages are very high compared to the differential voltage, but it's better than nothing.

NO YOU CANNOT! 

While this provides a differential input it does not provide an electrically safe arrangement. The input of the scope is not rated for mains voltage.

[watchmaker]

Thank you all!! 

I just purchased this Yokogowa 15 Mhz for $75 (with returns).  I am unlikely to reach the point where I am doing HF/HV work and I just want to be able to probe low output 120v things safely (like an audio amp).  So if this unit works, it will serve the purpose of education.

And to complete the circle, I am returning the Jameco Iso xformer I THOUGHT was the solution.

I like the simplification of the setup afforded by the use of a differential probe.  And a previous poster was right; for non professional use there may well be good functional used Diff Probes that had to be surplused as tech changed.  Like the DMMs (and optical microscopes).

Now I just gotta watch my probe hand.  But I made it this far doing it the dangerous way of the past.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175794367117

[AVGresponding]

I do not know if I belong but I have an affliction where I find myself just gazing at the VFDs and my blue backlit LCD on my 3478.  I also find myself buying things "just because".  Like an Agilent u1252A "just because" it was $125 (perfect except battery lock needed new plastic pin).  Or a Phillips PM 2525 which I like because of the motorized switch.

I also love precision measurement ( I work down to 500 microMeters).

OK.  My question is about isolation transformers (ad nauseum, I know).  But when I was young we used em.  But those were the same days in which I subscribed to subscription kits advertised in Pop Elec that had you build different tube ckts on a cardboard platform with perfboard (I wonder why they stopped making those?).

So I am aware accepted practice changes as a result of incident post mortems.  I was taught you only needed to isolate the DUT.  But I read a post here that even the TE to be used must be isolated.  Then I read another post that said the use of isolation transformers is no longer an accepted industry practice.

I work in an area where risk mitigation is high on the list (tree felling).  So I have no interest in being a "he-man" nor am I risk averse.

I am well and truly confused.

Here is a scenario.  Using a scope on an old TV (imaginary) by following the signal from the tuner.  Good earth grounds on all equipment.  Bench is covered ESD rubber surface.  Rubber on floor.

Isolate the TV or no?
Isolate the TV AND the Scope?
No isolation at all and know what you are doing (differential probe is best, but maybe not available?)

Using a DMM

Isolate the TV?
Isolate TV and Bench mounted DMM?  Leave the DMM earthed?
Use the Agilent 1252A?

Role of hand coverings?  Nitrile, rubber, etc

What are the authoritative sources for best practices? Ideally from industry trade associations that derive these practices from existing regulatory bodies (code and workplace safety).

Thanks!

As you say practices change. In this case it is due to incidents with old practices and also the avaiability of new technology.
If you use an isolation transformer for shock protection then ALL equipment being used must be isolated from mains earth. Ideally there should not be any earthed conductive items in reach.
The new technology includes earth leakage circuit breakers and test equipment with fully isolated inputs e.g. Tek THS700 series 'scopes.
Very difficult to give specific advice without knowing the EXACT set-up i.e a site vist.
Generically use a earth leakage circuit breaker and take care. Do Nnot use an isolation transformer.

Robert G8RPI.

What really grinds my gears is that people think that using an isolation transformer is for personal safety reasons. It is not, and does not provide ANY safety for the person working on a device. It is PURELY and SOLELY to protect the scope inputs from mains ground referenced voltages, NOTHING ELSE. The RCD/GFCI/RCBO is what protects your person from the mains, if you are clumsy enough to do something stupid. NOTHING will protect you from, say, touching both rails of the primary side of an SMPS, other than good practice (one hand only), and careful, methodical working.

People need to get it through their thick heads that working on mains powered devices is DANGEROUS, and there is NO SAFETY DEVICE that will protect them in all circumstances. If you are not confident, or don't know what you're doing, DON'T work on it.

[Vince]

There is a Keithley 2001M in Switzerland for a good price (no affiliation), which is pretty rare. Even considering the shortcomings of the Keithley 2001, at CHF 400 it's still a good buy.

https://www.ricardo.ch/de/a/tisch-multimeter-keithley-2001m-75-digit-1249531596/

The 400 bucks meter just turned into a 850 one.....
Just watched the end of the auction live.

I was shocked at what happened, never heard about such practices on auction sites ?!
When the count down reached zero, instead of ending, the auction started again !
All by magic, instead of displaying 00:00, the time counter got credited a bonus 2 minutes or so !
So the auction resumed and the price went up even more as a result.
Upon reached zero (again...), it AGAIN credited an extra 2 minutes !
It did that 5 or 6 times before the auction ended for good !

Is that a new thing these days ?! 

Maybe it's an old practice and I never heard of it because I live under  a rock or something ?!