Free Altium is Coming

[elgonzo]

i'll take you up on that offer. lemme see if i can whip up a board over the weekend. but be prepared for some 'machinegunning' if the software is counterintuitive. if i need to spend more than a few hours finding my way to create symbols, footprints and route it ... the guns will come out .

[Iliya]

i'll take you up on that offer. lemme see if i can whip up a board over the weekend. but be prepared for some 'machinegunning' if the software is counterintuitive. if i need to spend more than a few hours finding my way to create symbols, footprints and route it ... the guns will come out .

Don't forget to keep an open mind. AutoTRAX is not Eagle (impossible to leave dangling wires in AutoTRAX). There is no separate schematic/PCB

Design from the schematic not the PCB.

Start with schematics.
http://kov.com/Videos/Schematics
Try editing parts in place. Drag terminals etc.

As for parts, view at least 1 video. See parts videos...
Parts http://kov.com/Videos/Parts
Use parametric parts, use PDF capture for symbol terminal. (see videos) Re-order/split symbols.

Then finally to the PCB
http://kov.com/Videos/PCBs

If would be nice if you could let us all know what you are designing so we could perhaps make this a race, or PCB design shoot-out 

[nixfu]

Meanwhile....its almost February 2015 and I forgot how many months ago it was I signed up for the Altium site and received a total of 1/2 of a communication from them the entire time.

[free_electron]

Don't forget to keep an open mind. AutoTRAX is not Eagle

Eagle ? What is Eagle ? you mean that glorified pencil and napkin tool ?
Don't insult me ! i don't use tools that smell like wee >

What i'm making ? probably something simple. a couple of TQFP's , 4 layer plus a couple of planes , some memory. may throw in some diff pairs and length matched stuff. may use flow routing ( curved traces ). Better make sure your spatial checker is up t par... just in case i make this a foldable board ...

i hope it can read STEP files or i'm not even beginning ...

[free_electron]

well this is a no start ... no STEP support   
how am i supposed to bring in assemblies like a case , buttons etc ? i have a bunch of mechanical stuff that needs to fit correctly on the pcb. i have all those parts as STEP or IGES files ( STEP be the dominant format. all manufacturers like tyco, molex and many many others have STEP available. )

this begins good ... i can' t even place the first parts or draw out my board contour ... i don't do rectangular boards .. they need to fit a case including holes, notches , cutouts and other stuff.

from the DEX manual : download file, load in Inventor export as SGL.

great so i need a 10000$ program ( a program i don't have and don't know ) to work with the 45$ pcb tool ...

[Iliya]

well this is a no start ... no STEP support   
how am i supposed to bring in assemblies like a case , buttons etc ? i have a bunch of mechanical stuff that needs to fit correctly on the pcb. i have all those parts as STEP or IGES files ( STEP be the dominant format. all manufacturers like tyco, molex and many many others have STEP available. )

this begins good ... i can' t even place the first parts or draw out my board contour ... i don't do rectangular boards .. they need to fit a case including holes, notches , cutouts and other stuff.

from the DEX manual : download file, load in Inventor export as SGL.

great so i need a 10000$ program ( a program i don't have and don't know ) to work with the 45$ pcb tool ...

So you've jumped out of the ring and off to the dressing room before the bell's started.

Bye the way, does everything you don't like smell of wee. There's nothing better with a full English breakfast than a couple of grilled kidneys.

[Iliya]

Meanwhile....its almost February 2015 and I forgot how many months ago it was I signed up for the Altium site and received a total of 1/2 of a communication from them the entire time.

Ahh..., but they now have your email address. Did you give them your phone number?
Do you fancy Altium Designer as Circuit Maker is not quite ready.
Hope you didn't give them your address. Who's that at your door with a big carpet bag?

[Mechatrommer]

You are so wrong no 45 deg trace snap!. Have you used AutoTRAX?
View this video to learn about  45 deg trace snap -

o right i am so "wrong" congratulation! after all this years. now we have alot to catch up keep it up! hows the simulation tutorial/functionality goes on? next time make that (45 degree routing) as default setting because we dont usually see spagetthy board around. next move?.... questionaires for experts... and hope we dont wander and waste time too much. i hope you dont take it as an insult, more like an advice

Ahh..., but they now have your email address. Did you give them your phone number?

i occasionally got an email from your ads dept thanks. i hope one day i got one from your edu dept, err i mean full tutorial on how to from A to Z (footprint->components->schematics->simul->pcb->3d->gerber production) not in phletora form of small sections in few minutes each separately in where i cannot or difficult to find cheers.

[Christopher]

DEX seems like a really good bit of kit for the hobbyist. Not everyone needs more than 2 layers or diff pair routing. Iliya, keep doing what you are doing no matter what the haters say. For a one man band your software seems more than useful for the maker community who want something simple that just works and can be picked up over the course of a weekend. Eagle is too.. Eagle. Altium isn't for makers.


All I can say is different tools are for different markets. If you go to McDonalds to eat with royalty you're gonna have a bad time.

[zapta]

BTW, the 'scientific' name for that 45 degrees routing is 'octilinear', the 90 degrees routing is  called 'rectilinear', and then there is the 'any angle'.

[c4757p]

may throw in some diff pairs and length matched stuff. may use flow routing ( curved traces ). Better make sure your spatial checker is up t par... just in case i make this a foldable board ...

i hope it can read STEP files or i'm not even beginning ...

well this is a no start ... no STEP support   
how am i supposed to bring in assemblies like a case , buttons etc ? i have a bunch of mechanical stuff that needs to fit correctly on the pcb. i have all those parts as STEP or IGES files ( STEP be the dominant format. all manufacturers like tyco, molex and many many others have STEP available. )

Sweet Jesus you're picky... of course it's no Altium...

[free_electron]

I know it's not altium and i don't expect it to be altium. This is also not a matter of being 'hater' or not.
This is basic functionality. If you are going to support 3D make it usable by supporting the standard formats like STEP and IGES.

Remember that my goal is to make a NICE looking board so that he can show this off on his website. I am willing to invest time in doing that, and figuring out along the way where there is room for improvement. (and i am going to be vocal about anything i find !)

I am in step 1 of the board design : figuring out where everything needs to go and i'm already stuck : i can't place parts as i can't load the models.

When designing a board you first place 'immovable objects' such as connectors , buttons , displays, heatsinks, transformers and anything that needs to be accessible outside the box, or interact with the box (spatial wise like transformers, heatsinks etc ) . DEX supports 3d. Great , Fantastic... except only an obscure format that NOBODY uses. And with nobody i mean : go to websites of Samtec, Tyco ,Molex, MEC or even 3Dcontentcentral. That format is NOT there ! So you may as well not have 3D at all.

you need a very expensive tool to convert to that 3d format.(and jump through intermediate hoops to get even there ! )

I wanted to make a nice board with some cool packages and nice buttons and a display and i can't even load the buttons to figure out where they need to go.

If you are going to support 3D make sure it uses the dominant standard format. An that is STEP.

Not good !

[zapta]

A fair comparison would be to eagle, diptrace, kicad and products for the same target market.  Saying that it's not having feature X while none in this category has it is meaningless.

[DerekG]

A fair comparison would be to eagle, diptrace, kicad and products for the same target market.

The latest edition of DipTrace supports the importation of 3D component models in the following formats:
STEP
IGES
3DS
VRML

http://diptrace.com/company/news/

I believe Iliya will fairly quickly work out a way to achieve STEP import without requiring the use of expensive third party software.

[firewalker]

I believe FreeCAD can import STEP files and export it to a number of formats. E.g. VRML (wrl) for KiCAD.

Alexander.

[elgonzo]

Seems Altium has a real marketing problem. Just look at this thread. People are more interested in discussing the 3D import capabilities of KiCAD, Diptrace, AutoTrax and whatnot.

I can imagine the people in a few months from now:

"Have you heard about Altium?"
"No. What is that?"
"I dunno. I thought you knew."
"Hmm. Perhaps they discovered a new element. The name does sound like one of these elements Potassium, Einsteinium, Uranium and what they are all called."
"Yeah, I guess you are right. Awesome that they still discover new elements these days. Science is amazing..."

 

[free_electron]

A fair comparison would be to eagle, diptrace, kicad and products for the same target market.  Saying that it's not having feature X while none in this category has it is meaningless.

And what target market would that be ?
The target market for a schemaric / pcb package is people that want to draw schematics and design boards. . No ? What other diversification do you want.

Do you want to make cars that are only for people that drive short distances ? Ot cars for people that only drive on two lane roads ? That doesnt pan out.

Of course you cant expect  that all cars are as advanced as a Tesla.
But , today every car comes with a navigation system (3D) Right now the 'dex' car only navigates on dirt roads in moldavia. Anything else requires you to bring the bulldozer and pour the asphalt.

Not good ...

Anyway. I have not given up.

I will do a design , trying to make something that looks neat and cool so he can put it on his site. It has to be aestetically pleasing , properly laid out and properly drafted.

So i will start by making a schematic. And post my findings along the way.
I may come of harsh , but i am intrigued by this tool , especially since it is a one man show. Any criticism i spew is notment to hurt but to poke a finger in the eye where the big shortcomings and annoyances are. Capture and layout software should assit the designer and lighten the work or speed it up.  Too many cad programs are written by 'programmers' that have no concept of what the problems really are or how it will be used.

There are a lot of very tedious steps in making a schematic and producing a board. A good program does the annoying jobs for you and lets you focus on where the human is needed. Let the computer do what it is best at and the human where he is best. Cad programs that need to have the human do everything or no longer of this century ... They died years ago.

[zapta]

A fair comparison would be to eagle, diptrace, kicad and products for the same target market.  Saying that it's not having feature X while none in this category has it is meaningless.

And what target market would that be ?
The target market for a schemaric / pcb package is people that want to draw schematics and design boards. . No ? What other diversification do you want.

For example, the market of large corporation the needs to adhere to standards (e.g. resistor proportion) and processes are very different from the needs of a small OSH project maker.

Do you want to make cars that are only for people that drive short distances ?

Yes, they are called golf carts and are very useful.

Of course you cant expect  that all cars are as advanced as a Tesla.

Of course not, I expect them to be better so the government doesn't need to bribe people to buy them.  ;-) 

Anyway, looking forward for your open minded evaluation.

The main drawbacks I see with Auto Traxs are being Windows only (not that useful for open source projects) and being a one man close code project (things can happen).

[Iliya]

The main drawbacks I see with Auto Traxs are being Windows only (not that useful for open source projects) and being a one man close code project (things can happen).

Things can happen with the big guys.
Where's PCAD, EasyTrack, Circuit Maker old and new? 

Oh, and where's Nick?  At least I own 100%

I think Altium also put another program to sleep (euthanasia). 

P.S. I have a will and it has written instructions on what to do. Worst case senario, it goes on GitHub as open source. (Oh dear, better watch my back!) 

[Iliya]

A fair comparison would be to eagle, diptrace, kicad and products for the same target market.  Saying that it's not having feature X while none in this category has it is meaningless.

And what target market would that be ?
The target market for a schemaric / pcb package is people that want to draw schematics and design boards. . No ? What other diversification do you want.

Do you want to make cars that are only for people that drive short distances ? Ot cars for people that only drive on two lane roads ? That doesnt pan out.

Of course you cant expect  that all cars are as advanced as a Tesla.
But , today every car comes with a navigation system (3D) Right now the 'dex' car only navigates on dirt roads in moldavia. Anything else requires you to bring the bulldozer and pour the asphalt.

Not good ...

Anyway. I have not given up.

I will do a design , trying to make something that looks neat and cool so he can put it on his site. It has to be aestetically pleasing , properly laid out and properly drafted.

So i will start by making a schematic. And post my findings along the way.
I may come of harsh , but i am intrigued by this tool , especially since it is a one man show. Any criticism i spew is notment to hurt but to poke a finger in the eye where the big shortcomings and annoyances are. Capture and layout software should assit the designer and lighten the work or speed it up.  Too many cad programs are written by 'programmers' that have no concept of what the problems really are or how it will be used.

There are a lot of very tedious steps in making a schematic and producing a board. A good program does the annoying jobs for you and lets you focus on where the human is needed. Let the computer do what it is best at and the human where he is best. Cad programs that need to have the human do everything or no longer of this century ... They died years ago.

I've put STEP on the 2015 Roadmap for AutoTRAX. http://kov.com/Support/Roadmap
Use the:
Feedback http://kov.com/Support/Feedback or
Wishlist http://kov.com/Support/WishList

You can ask questions inside AutoTRAX - use Help->Support->Report Problem button.

[c4757p]

I've put STEP on the 2015 Roadmap for AutoTRAX. 

I don't really think 3D is as important as he makes it out to be, but I definitely approve of the attempt to get STEP implemented.

hmm... it does look like nice software... might have to get it up and running in a virtualbox or something...

P.S. dude, you have serious troubles with posting links on this forum

[free_electron]

3d is extremely important. It is where the industry is today. No longer where it is headed. No step model means we dont use it !
The days of having to bi.uild footprints from paper are over. So are the days of having to guess if everything will fit after it is assembled. We live in a time where computers are powerful. Where 3d printing is ubiquitus.Everyone bleats about collaboration and sharing . I say share step files. It avoids problems and shortens design time and eliminates lots of problems. We can create beautiful things if we can mesh electronics and modeling and mechanical cad. 3d step files allow you to pull that together.

Any new software that does not support that will fall by the wayside. Not having support for real 3d is like a calculator without multiplication. You can do it by repetitively adding, but nobody will buy it.

As for the comment ' it's for makers' . I resent such comments. Anything worth doing is worth f.doing good. You are holding people back. There is tons of peoe out there that could make great stuff if knly they could get their hands on decent tools. That is my 'fight'

When i grew up as a 16. Year old i saw flga tools on sun workstations. I had ideas but couldnt even learn about that stuff because the computers and software were too expensive.

Today stuff has come down in price a lot. 400$ gets you a pretty good scope.
We need a really good pcb tool that lets one make designs with bga et al. Not that stuff that costs 500$ and you can still only do 4 layer eurocards. Dex looks interesting. Its cheap and promises a lot. Let me see if it holds up against my yardstick: getting a capable tool in the hands of the masses.

[Mechatrommer]

The main drawbacks I see with Auto Traxs are being Windows only (not that useful for open source projects) and being a one man close code project (things can happen).

the other drawback is its "paid" software because the trend for success in linux is it has to be "free", besides of being "open sourced" no?. imho and reading... linux is flooded with free stuffs and the users seem not to be able to distiguish between "software" and "the real software". most of the time they like to insist that whats available in "free stuff" can rival or do what "commercial/professional/paid stuff" can do.

and yes things happened in linux one (even many) man open project. what happened? the original creators left to find a life (knitting maybe) waiting for other enthusiasts that up to the task to continue whats being left (KiCAD anyone?)... for "free" of course. i wish linux ecosystem can be the next thing to users and developers, i've been holding my breath for 20 years ++, i dont see thats happening.

if you ask me between free kicad and paid diptrace, i'll choose diptrace, kicad is not up to the task esp in term of speed running in windows. but the thousands pound sterling for unlimited diptrace is not in my price range either, dillema! i'll hold my breath on "cheap paid" version like AutoTRAX, but how long? i dont know. its sad to see a potential pcb package like trax went to a fancy 3d editing package like well suited for arduino artists... i mean whats the top/left/bottom/front buttons view are for? we aint want to full edit the vertices of whatnot, we just want to make a clear view of 3d component, just one "3d orbit mouse drag" button will do, autotrax seems going to be flooded with bunches of useless buttons... new world order dilemma! between free/expensive/cheap stuffs. in the mean time maybe knitting is the right stuff for me now

from:
http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/linux-and-open-source/proprietary-linux-software-a-big-dilemma-for-many-linux-users/

"If end users (and admins) are willing to open up there minds and wallets, more Linux companies will be able to create more and better software. With more and better software flooding the landscape, Linux will begin to enjoy more and more success."

no thats not happening yet. the real reason is unclearly why albeit its free for the 20+ damned years. 

[Iliya]

3d is extremely important. It is where the industry is today. No longer where it is headed. No step model means we dont use it !
The days of having to bi.uild footprints from paper are over. So are the days of having to guess if everything will fit after it is assembled. We live in a time where computers are powerful. Where 3d printing is ubiquitus.Everyone bleats about collaboration and sharing . I say share step files. It avoids problems and shortens design time and eliminates lots of problems. We can create beautiful things if we can mesh electronics and modeling and mechanical cad. 3d step files allow you to pull that together.

Any new software that does not support that will fall by the wayside. Not having support for real 3d is like a calculator without multiplication. You can do it by repetitively adding, but nobody will buy it.

As for the comment ' it's for makers' . I resent such comments. Anything worth doing is worth f.doing good. You are holding people back. There is tons of peoe out there that could make great stuff if knly they could get their hands on decent tools. That is my 'fight'

When i grew up as a 16. Year old i saw flga tools on sun workstations. I had ideas but couldnt even learn about that stuff because the computers and software were too expensive.

Today stuff has come down in price a lot. 400$ gets you a pretty good scope.
We need a really good pcb tool that lets one make designs with bga et al. Not that stuff that costs 500$ and you can still only do 4 layer eurocards. Dex looks interesting. Its cheap and promises a lot. Let me see if it holds up against my yardstick: getting a capable tool in the hands of the masses.

I agree with you in some respects.

AutoTRAX is not intended solely for the Maker market. I am trying to bootstrap develop a tool with a solid, well designed data structure, from the bottom up. A lot of work went into this.
As for BGA I have book that may be of interest. BGA Breakouts and Routing.
I am very interested in expanding AutoTRAX to take into account signal integrity etc. The DRC is good geometrically and can easily be expanded for timing etc. The PCB has defined thickness and I could easily add dielectric constants etc.
The tool tip already shows track length so timing is easy to add.
Buried/Blind vias are on the cards but at the moment the boards cost a lot extra to make.

I need users....

[Mechatrommer]

...tool with a solid, well designed data structure...

circuit designers dont care a dime on what data structure it is or how faboulosly effort put into it, they only care about designing circuit. if you get that idea you win, diptrace albeit its poor ol gui and kicad like separate sw for comp/sch/pcb and more expensive is still on top of this trax why? they got the idea right. dont talk marketing a circuit designer dont care about. when i say win, is not based on how fancy a sw looks, but how much users and profit they collected, please one should not live in one's own dreamworld no offense, again, if i have to mention this everytime.

I am very interested in expanding AutoTRAX to take into account signal integrity etc.

no no no dont do that yet! fix the basic thing first, people are put off by this basic things impracticality and overwhelmed by your buttons with less manual instructions. expanding to complicated stuffs will do no good if people are not using the sw because of trivial (but important) stuffs. but if you wish to waste another time and have money poll to live, then carry on, i dont have the right to object its your sw afterall.