EEVblog #178 - Agilent's U1272A response

[pmrlondon]

I have to say "Well done Agilent". Admitting to the problem and responding - just what I like to see.

This makes Fluke's lack of response a poor show. Agilent certainly know how to respond to social media.

I would be more inclined to buy Agilent than Fluke at the moment.

[Lunat1c]

I would be more inclined to buy Agilent than Fluke at the moment.

Same here. I will not even consider buying a Fluke whenever I'm looking for a multimeter. There are other top notch multimeter makers out there that seem to give a damn about their customers and bother replying to issues found within their products, something Fluke didn't care to do. I'm pretty sure many people feel the same way.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Here is the link ...  

Currently there is 115 people who liked the video and just one who disliked it.
I bet my socks that the one who gave a negative was Agilent it self,
they pressed the wrong button because of their excitement !!!      


I did defended the Agilent problem from the start in this forum,
and I did that because I had the faith that they will handle it.
Why I had faith ?  Simply because the company who gives away their new hand held series for public tests,
they are listening, they are ready to handle the feedback no matter if it is negative or positive.
They was ready to act like the Goal keeper does by staying awake all the 90 minutes in a football game.
I am glad that they make it, and I will personally help them, so the next firmware update to be even more improved.  

About Fluke I will agree with Dave, they had lots of skilled personal in their castle,
and those people in there they do show an great understanding when you contact them.
And probably the Fluke problem is that they keep their pigeons most of the time locked in cages.

Fluke does visiting the EEV forum, I am a living proof, because they read in here
that I got charged by returning costs for the on warranty replacement unit that they send to me.
They read about it on the EEV forum. ( I was very happy so to bother them with an such complain)  
They contacted me, they offered to me for free many fuses that worth 100$ in Greece ( retail ) as gift.
They send them in a huge box with UPS express to Greece from their castle in USA.
( I even kept the shipping label so to remember them, and now it hangs on a frame, on my wall as a proof and souvenir )  

UNI-T is another good example of good communication by email.

" Nothing under the carpet any more ... "  Yes my own vote goes to that 100%.

  

[PetrosA]

Great blog, Dave. In my opinion, Agilent has been on the ball with the entire development process ever since they started the Voice of Agilent Users' ( http://www.agilent.com/find/VOHU-contest ) contest and contacted me personally to meet with some of their people during a trip to the US. That was in response to my observations about the U1211A clamp meter but during our three hour meeting we discussed their entire line, checked out some prototypes, reviewed working conditions here in the US and how they affect my needs for test gear and generally picked my brain which to me was a very impressive approach toward developing their products. Now they fix issues in record time. For as long as they keep up these tactics, I will be a returning customer.

[sdscotto]

Agilent's response on both the O'Scope and the U1272A is one of the reasons I will do more business with Agilent.  Regardless of the social media pressure, they could still TRY to sweep it under the rug.  They haven't.  They've shown their long term reputation is more important than a few bumps in the road, regardless of the short term costs to make good.

Agilent, you get my next business!

BK Precision is another company that I really had never given much thought until Dave's review of the 879B LCR meter.  I waited to see their response on the Mix-Max-Avg bug.  Another well handled issue that resulted in two more sales for B&K, a friend and I each bought one.

[Dave, you really should get commission from these folks!]

On the other hand, you have Danaher destroying the reputation of nearly every company they own.  I make a conscious effort to avoid them whenever possible. They still have some decent products, and a few good people left at places like Fluke and Tektronix, but I don't trust them as a whole anymore.  The customer no longer comes first so neither do their products for me or my friends and associates.

It's unfortunate that good people and prestigious companies are now the minority.

[IanJ]

Hi all,

Gotta love Dave's blog on the Agilent responce.....well done....and I totally agree!

One thing i'd like to add is that I think that a lot of the big companies like Fluke etc are missing a trick. There are a couple of things here IMHO,

With the internet these days firmware upgrades are a lot cheaper to carry out to the user than they used to be. Wind the clock back and we used to have to package our faulty products back to the company.......and it would cost them a bomb to sort out, even if it was a small firmware upgrade. But now it's effectively free, the user downloads, the user installs. Quite a lot of product issue's are firmware related I'd hedge to bet these days, it's the nature of the design.

Companies like Agilent are turning a negative into a positive by their immediate responce. Users that don't have any Agilent equipment (like me) will think twice now on their next purchase........Agilent are getting near the top of my list now. Ok, they had a problem product, but they're responce is GREAT marketing and why would you not want to grab that offer by the b@lls every time!

Ian.

[Bored@Work]

Ok, they had a problem product, but they're responce is GREAT marketing

Yes, it is marketing, and this is the problem I have with it. In fact, there are two issues.

1) Notice that Agilent responded, Agilent didn't act proactively on their own.

If you see the bug list you can easily determine that Agilent knew they had a bunch of problems with that particular firmware. Some of the other bugs on the list would have warranted a new firmware release on their own. What would happen if the particular issue wasn't published? My guess is not much. Silent firmware upgrades when a unit happens to be back at some authorized Agilent repair center or calibration center.

2) Agilent responded to one of the largest and well known blogs when it comes to multimeters

Would Agilent have responded the same way if the problem wasn't published that wide and large? Because the seriousness of a problem and the publication converge it gets are only very loosely related. Would Agilent have responded if a lesser known blog would have published the issue? My guess is they wouldn't.


One can't predict how Agilent will act the next time if the circumstances are different but the problem is as serious. Therefore I would not take this one-time Agilent marketing action into account when buying.

[Kiriakos-GR]

One can't predict how Agilent will act the next time if the circumstances are different but the problem is as serious.

No one does predictions.


But at the end of this specific day, because of their actions they got listed in the list of the nice guys.
And they worth to be rewarded.
The tomorrow is not here yet, why should I worry about it.
I am justified to worry only for what bothers me today.  


 


  

[Uncle Vernon]

I'll say I agree somewhat with BAW. (must be becoming miserable in my old age,  )
Agilent response is to be applauded it's a good response, but it is a response to a problem or suite of problems that could potentially remove any trust in the instrument. Good to see that it appears resolved. Bad to think such a problem apparently slipped through pre market testing without notice.

The Fluke 87-5 issue has been narrowed down to close proximity to GSM transmission resolved in most cases by moving the cell phone away. I realise that their are isolated examples of bricking being reported, but these are rare and handled by the Fluke replacement warranty. The Agilent issue was appearing on virtually every unit tested. Comparing the two issues is like comparing apples with oranges, your not going to fix GSM susceptibility with a firmware flash but then most 87-5 users can solve any issue by what should be good standard practice anyway.

I agree with Dave's rant to the extent that companies who are open and responsive will be those who fare best in a switched on and media savvy marketplace. Fluke could have done themselves a whole mess of good with a considered and non patronising response. Agilent have gained a lot of favour with this response.

True it's how issues are dealt with rather than a Utopian dream of issue free products that will sort the product sheep from the product goats. For my money a watch this space approach will deliver more miles than any knee jerk reaction. Reputations don't wither overnight, likewise they are not maintained without continued effort.

I'm happy to see Agilent's aggressive competition to place new product in our sphere, hopefully competiton will result in some keener sticker prices at the quality end.

[kaptain_zero]

I have to say it's refreshing to see which companies are responding to issues and which companies are NOT.

While Agilent was not at the top of my list for multimeters, and come to think of it, neither was BK precision, Fluke will be removed from the top spot on my list and moved towards the bottom based on their lack of response to the GSM issue with the 87V.  I suspect it's a minor issue, but it IS an issue, none the less. I'm glad they responded to Kiriakos's situation with a new 28II but that does nothing for the rest of us 87V owners.

Dear Fluke.... A lifetime warranty is worth very little to the end user if it requires said user to beg and scream to get service. Your competitors are coming clean and offering prompt fixes to EVERYONE when an issues arises, as YOU should have done. Dave said it well.... "Buy a clue!" If you want the solution to Kiriakos's problem to be the ultimate solution, you should offer every owner of an 87V the same replacement. If that is NOT the solution you wish to go forward with, then please produce another fix promptly, as your competitors have done, if you wish to retain your reputation as a top notch company. You need to do this before your reputation falls any further..... in the eyes of the educated user...... who knows how to use the Internet, and, come to think of it, who doesn't?!?!?

Regards

Christian 

[kaptain_zero]

I'll say I agree somewhat with BAW. (must be becoming miserable in my old age,  )

The Fluke 87-5 issue has been narrowed down to close proximity to GSM transmission resolved in most cases by moving the cell phone away. I realise that their are isolated examples of bricking being reported, but these are rare and handled by the Fluke replacement warranty. The Agilent issue was appearing on virtually every unit tested. Comparing the two issues is like comparing apples with oranges, your not going to fix GSM susceptibility with a firmware flash but then most 87-5 users can solve any issue by what should be good standard practice anyway.


Reputations don't wither overnight, likewise they are not maintained without continued effort.

Sorry to disagree but Fluke HAS lost it's reputation with ME and will not regain it without dealing with the 87V issue. The susceptibility is REAL, the lack of response is REAL, the rarity of the problem may also be REAL, but in the end, it leaves whichever user who encounters this problem with a bricked unit and the ordeal of sending it back to the manufacturer for repair/replacement as a REAL ORDEAL. At the very least, owners of the 87V should have been officially informed that the issue exists, and that new guidelines have been issued regarding the use of Fluke's hardware, to avoid the problem, if they (Fluke) do not intend to fix it.

As it stands, Fluke's reputation WILL wither overnight, as their competitors move quickly towards rectifying ANY problems, software or hardware related, for ALL their customers..... affected or not.... period.   

Personally, as Dave also has commented, I realize and understand that these types of devices are complex and may harbor issues that the manufacturer may have initially missed. But, this is not a license to ignore the issue, once they (the manufacturer) are aware there is a problem...... limited or extensive!

That is my view and I intend to vote with my $ when it comes to my next purchase.

Regards

Christian

[Uncle Vernon]

Sorry to disagree but Fluke HAS lost it's reputation with ME and will not regain it without dealing with the 87V issue.

No need for apologies, your free to disagree to your hearts content. You can make your choices and I can make mine, doesn't make either of us right or wrong.

The susceptibility is REAL, the lack of response is REAL, the rarity of the problem may also be REAL, but in the end, it leaves whichever user who encounters this problem with a bricked unit and the ordeal of sending it back to the manufacturer for repair/replacement as a REAL ORDEAL.

There are all kinds of possible susceptibilities in most high tech products, the dumb luck fairies can strike on this or any number of other more likely issues. I have one of those dreaded 87-3s, I remember to switch it off, for me it was never an issue worth pursuing, traction for others may vary.

At the very least, owners of the 87V should have been officially informed that the issue exists

I think that is what I stated.

As it stands, Fluke's reputation WILL wither overnight, as their competitors move quickly towards rectifying ANY problems, software or hardware related, for ALL their customers..... affected or not.... period.

In your opinion. Wiser heads may take a somewhat more cautious and considered approach. Fluke has after all delivered quality for decades. You wont get sacked for buying Fluke, nada, nada. Only time will tell how Fluke will fare at maintaining their reputation and how others fare at surpassing it. One or two events, such as these, wont change the industry landscape in an instant.

Personally, as Dave also has commented, I realize and understand that these types of devices are complex and may harbor issues that the manufacturer may have initially missed. But, this is not a license to ignore the issue, once they (the manufacturer) are aware there is a problem...... limited or extensive!

Who says Fluke have ignored any issue? Who says they have taken no action? Where they are shooting themselves in the foot is their lack of communication to a media savvy market.

That is my view and I intend to vote with my $ when it comes to my next purchase.

As you are entitled. But being your view doesn't make my view, or BAW's, or any number of other differing opinions wrong.
I dislike the way Westfield does business and choose to never enter their premises unless I am paid to do so, my view, my choice, my purchasing dollar decision. I feel I am right to do so, however last time I looked their shares price hadn't suffered too badly for my decision. Same applies for any purchase fatwa some dude in Canada applies to purchase of Fluke products. The trouble for Fluke, Westfield, Agilent or any number of other companies hedges on how they address market sentiment not whether they notice any isolated customer overreaction.

[EEVblog]

The Fluke 87-5 issue has been narrowed down to close proximity to GSM transmission resolved in most cases by moving the cell phone away. I realise that their are isolated examples of bricking being reported, but these are rare and handled by the Fluke replacement warranty. The Agilent issue was appearing on virtually every unit tested. Comparing the two issues is like comparing apples with oranges, your not going to fix GSM susceptibility with a firmware flash but then most 87-5 users can solve any issue by what should be good standard practice anyway.

I agree with Dave's rant to the extent that companies who are open and responsive will be those who fare best in a switched on and media savvy marketplace. Fluke could have done themselves a whole mess of good with a considered and non patronising response. Agilent have gained a lot of favour with this response.

True it's how issues are dealt with rather than a Utopian dream of issue free products that will sort the product sheep from the product goats. For my money a watch this space approach will deliver more miles than any knee jerk reaction. Reputations don't wither overnight, likewise they are not maintained without continued effort.

I'm happy to see Agilent's aggressive competition to place new product in our sphere, hopefully competiton will result in some keener sticker prices at the quality end.

Yes, you are right in that the problems itself is apples and oranges, but you can compare them from a response point of view.
I didn't expect Fluke to panic and announce to the world their famous meter has a huge issue (it wasn't), nor would I have expected them to recall units or offer replacements. But I was expecting them to investigate the issue and get back to us on it, and explain what caused it, and a commitment that they would at least fix it in the next PCB update. But there was deathly silence apart from the initial "thanks, we'll take a look at it".
And of course Fluke bent over backward to replace Kiriakos's unit without question, so their service is exemplary, as it always has been.

Dave.

[EEVblog]

Who says Fluke have ignored any issue? Who says they have taken no action? Where they are shooting themselves in the foot is their lack of communication to a media savvy market.

That could be spot-on. For all we know, they may have silently fixed the issue in a minor PCB update. But yes, their communication is the problem.

Fluke are part of the big EVIL (IMO) Danaher group, who do things "the Danaher way".
http://www.danaher.com/about/corevalues.htm
http://www.thomsonlinear.com/website/com/eng/about_us/danaher_business_system.php
So it seems they are supposed to listen to us, but then only change their "strategic plan" because of it.
Although they do mention follow-up, of which they get an F in this case.
I suspect the "voice-of-the-customer" might come down to a carefully worded market survey...

Dave.

[Uncle Vernon]

Yes, you are right in that the problems itself is apples and oranges, but you can compare them from a response point of view.
I didn't expect Fluke to panic and announce to the world their famous meter has a huge issue (it wasn't), nor would I have expected them to recall units or offer replacements. But I was expecting them to investigate the issue and get back to us on it, and explain what caused it, and a commitment that they would at least fix it in the next PCB update. But there was deathly silence apart from the initial "thanks, we'll take a look at it".
And of course Fluke bent over backward to replace Kiriakos's unit without question, so their service is exemplary, as it always has been.

Dave.

I'd agree with this entirely the comparison of responses certainly favours Agilent. The point I am trying to make is that this alone is not what determines a buying decision, bit certainly is a real consideration. The beauty of a medium such as this blog is that it allows feedback and consolidation of experiences.  Companies need to realise the value of this feedback it's better than any statistical smoke some marketing guru will concoct. Just as new media changes the landscape for manufacturer it also changes it for users we need to be realistic and considered in our expectations, change takes time in the corporate world.
There are thousands of over-reacting bloggers screaming blue murder just like their are thousands of counter thumping nut job customers in traditional channels. They are quite rightly ignored, to your credit EEVBlog seems to be getting the balance about right. Just as there is a place for the rants there is also a place for the checks and counterbalances of the odd conservative.

[Kiriakos-GR]

The point I am trying to make is that this alone is not what determines a buying decision, bit certainly is a real consideration.

Well I hate seeing some one to trying to impose to the others the "proper" way of thinking.
Well for your information we are not stupids or morons.
And the bottom line is, that the what ever buying decision,
it is an personal thing, and every one makes his own.
And it could be effected even by silly factors like the color of the device.

I get very angry with anyone who gets in my way, so to effect my own buying decision.
 
Nothing personal.

[kaptain_zero]

There are thousands of over-reacting bloggers screaming blue murder just like their are thousands of counter thumping nut job customers in traditional channels. They are quite rightly ignored, to your credit EEVBlog seems to be getting the balance about right. Just as there is a place for the rants there is also a place for the checks and counterbalances of the odd conservative.

I resemble that remark about "over-reacting bloggers screaming blue murder" but I would also be the first to fire someone who worked for me and assumed that "nobody ever got fired for buying Xbranded products".  

The Company I work for lives by those words... And yet we (the workers) suffers daily with crap software and crap hardware that does not function and that isn't being fixed because it's closed source and the maker has decided they can take their sweet time fixing it and charge us for the "upgrade".... if it ever gets here, because some nitwit in purchasing figured he won't get fired for having bought "The Industry Standard".

And just to point out one other small, but perhaps not insignificant, detail.... "Thousands of over-reacting bloggers" are still thousands of willing buyers who *may* chose to go elsewhere with their $$$ if they feel they may be treated with indifference, previous reputation notwithstanding. I don't recall who said it.... or if anyone said it... but I'll say it... in my alcohol induced brilliance.. "You're only as good as your last fixed screw up". I own a Fluke 87V... I even bought it after the GSM issue was brought up... I'm still considering purchasing another one, because it is, after all, a fine DMM otherwise. But, I am personally miffed at the apparent indifference about the known issue with this particular unit and I *may* choose to go elsewhere based on information I read on the internet and in particular on this board.

Regards

Christian aka

Kaptain "I pays my moneys and I takes my choices" Zero

[Uncle Vernon]

The point I am trying to make is that this alone is not what determines a buying decision, bit certainly is a real consideration.

Well I hate seeing some one to trying to impose to the others the "proper" way of thinking.

Well if you see any instances of that you make sure to let those responsible know. But why are you telling me?

Well for your information we are not stupids or morons.
And the bottom line is, that the what ever buying decision,
it is an personal thing, and every one makes his own.
And it could be effected even by silly factors like the color of the device.

Or equally could be made on more considered parameters. Your choice! A point I've made efforts to make previously!  Not moron would conflict somewhat with any decision based solely upon colour, wouldn't you think? That's an observation not an accusation.

I get very angry with anyone who gets in my way, so to effect my own buying decision.

Well if you find it ever happening you give those concerned a stern telling off, OK.

Nothing personal.

Whatever! No skin of my nose!

[Kiriakos-GR]

Well if you see any instances of that you make sure to let those responsible know. But why are you telling me?

Because you just got in the list of the responsible ones, and I did not had planed an direct hit on you.
And so I will say directly that personally I do not give a shit about your version of what determines a buying decision.

[Uncle Vernon]

I resemble that remark about "over-reacting bloggers screaming blue murder" but I would also be the first to fire someone who worked for me and assumed that "nobody ever got fired for buying Xbranded products".

I'd agree with you entirely, the sad reality that the world of survival and corporate ladder climbing often has very real and far from practical differences from any sensible decision you or I may make. I work for myself so I have fewer arguments with the boss, but I also work in a world where a known badge will impress a consultant far more than sensible application.
 

The Company I work for lives by those words... And yet we (the workers) suffers daily with crap software and crap hardware that does not function and that isn't being fixed because it's closed source and the maker has decided they can take their sweet time fixing it and charge us for the "upgrade".... if it ever gets here, because some nitwit in purchasing figured he won't get fired for having bought "The Industry Standard".

Keeps Microsoft in business, as you'll recognise from your statement above, sadly the buying decisions are not always made by those with the clues. An ever present reality in the engineering world.

And just to point out one other small, but perhaps not insignificant, detail.... "Thousands of over-reacting bloggers" are still thousands of willing buyers who *may* chose to go elsewhere

Or thousands of buyers who will follow fad-of-the-day, something those evil marketers know all too well.

I own a Fluke 87V... I even bought it after the GSM issue was brought up... I'm still considering purchasing another one, because it is, after all, a fine DMM otherwise. But, I am personally miffed at the apparent indifference about the known issue with this particular unit and I *may* choose to go elsewhere based on information I read on the Internet and in particular on this board.

That's the reality, and you've made a sensible purchase, not because you bought a known badge but because you weighed up all the factors that affected you. As has been stated ad infinitum every purchaser should apply his own critical factors.  

EEVblog is doing it's bit to tell it like it is and stands a chance of having some small influence non of those anonymous ranting bloggers will ever attain. Cheers for your constructive input.

[Uncle Vernon]

so I will say directly that personally I do not give a shit about your version of what determines a buying decision.

Then start your own forum and put me on your ban list, if that makes you happy. I doubt I'd ever visit it anyway.

Seriously, grow up. It's a forum a sharing of opinion not a quest to win over hearts and minds. You'll still get your dinner regardless of whether my opinion agrees with yours or not. If you do go hungry it won't be the result of any forum post of mine.

Buy what you damn well want! I cannot make it any clearer than that. happy now?

[Kiriakos-GR]

Due the respect that I have for Dave, I will not get more to this.
At list you are aware about my opinion for your tactics.

[Uncle Vernon]

Due the respect that I had for Dave, I will not get more to it.
At list you are aware about my opinion for your tactics.

Tactics?  Next thing it will be black helicopters!

Your entitled to your opinions, why not extend that same courtesy to others?

[kaptain_zero]

Gents,

I am not going to appoint myself as a referee or moderator, but having lived in Europe AND in Canada, I smell a wee bit of misinterpretation, or at least the possibility of such, and based on languages and the way we may say things, it may be perceived by someone else, in a different way, because they speak a different language and sometimes things do not translate all that well.  After all, is anyone satisfied with the way a manual from China reads, except for the Chinese?

We've all made our points and each individual who reads our comments must draw their own conclusions from what we have posted.

Regards

Christian

 

[Neilm]

That could be spot-on. For all we know, they may have silently fixed the issue in a minor PCB update. But yes, their communication is the problem.

Very true. From Flukes perspective imagine what would happen if they announced "Yes we have a problem, but you can do nothing to fix it - return your instrument". Agilent just issued a firmware update with a note that they were giving away the download cables, cheap goodwill from their POV. Only people who have had direct experience of the problem or have read about it on the net will know that the problem exists and they have a limited time to get the cables to do something about it. Co-ordinating a product recall is not something that any company wants to do and most will only do so if there is a safety issue.

Neil