Author Topic: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows [door plugs] stayed in!  (Read 56239 times)

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Offline floobydust

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #75 on: January 09, 2024, 02:25:04 am »
"Across the five {it's now ten} aircraft, there is little consistency in the locations of the errant parts..."
Gulp- loose fasteners all over the place in the door, surely all the others are tight {engine falls off}  :palm:
« Last Edit: January 09, 2024, 03:09:37 am by floobydust »
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #76 on: January 09, 2024, 02:32:22 am »
"Across the five aircraft, there is little consistency in the locations of the errant parts..."
Gulp- loose fasteners all over the place in the door, surely all the others are tight {engine falls off}  :palm:

So I'm guessing but sounds like it was self inspected? For a computer monitor fine, airliner not so much.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #77 on: January 09, 2024, 02:44:36 am »
It's a gong show:
"Sauer said NTSB staff were both surprised and happy the door remained intact.
He was intrigued to see the door plug’s serial number and other manufacturing details apparently handwritten on the door in permanent marker.
“That’s an interesting way of doing inventory control,” he said. Writing on the door plug says it was manufactured in Malaysia." source
Yup, use a Sharpie  :palm:

"The process involves removing two rows of seats and the sidewall liner... United said each inspection will involve a team of five technicians working for several hours on each aircraft..."
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #78 on: January 09, 2024, 03:22:56 am »
One product was melting DIN-rail terminal blocks which used a copper busbar to feed power to a group.
I was given a melted, burned section and at my desk, taking a screwdriver found some of the screws were loose.

Manufacturing manager insisted it was bad engineering, not rated for the load, redesign it etc. I think it was 20-30A.

I gave him a screwdriver and yelled "here, check for yourself!" because it was his underlings that obviously couldn't tighten screws properly. I think they get lazy and suffer fatigue because all they do all day is tighten screws. Some were tight, others loose so that inconsistency told me it was a manufacturing problem.
He would not take the screwdriver and check the torque, he just kept blaming engineering instead. It was quite a fiasco in front of all his staff, because I didn't back down.
 
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Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #79 on: January 09, 2024, 03:56:43 am »
One product was melting DIN-rail terminal blocks which used a copper busbar to feed power to a group.
I was given a melted, burned section and at my desk, taking a screwdriver found some of the screws were loose.

Manufacturing manager insisted it was bad engineering, not rated for the load, redesign it etc. I think it was 20-30A.

I gave him a screwdriver and yelled "here, check for yourself!" because it was his underlings that obviously couldn't tighten screws properly. I think they get lazy and suffer fatigue because all they do all day is tighten screws. Some were tight, others loose so that inconsistency told me it was a manufacturing problem.
He would not take the screwdriver and check the torque, he just kept blaming engineering instead. It was quite a fiasco in front of all his staff, because I didn't back down.

Yup, it's crazy. I was asked to troubleshoot brand new equipment for certain railways in Canada. The custom equipment
used to install and maintain rail. The engineering and software was excellent. Quality control was not as good as it
needed to be. On a few occasions I was asked by the railway to fix equipment with the OEM crew watching. Very interesting
situation. The railway had a massive amount of power. I remember the first call, I said "Your kidding" he said "I guarantee
you will get paid and the company will get to watch".  That was a good day for me. 
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #80 on: January 09, 2024, 04:26:58 am »
On many occasions, I have taken new, completed electrical panels and did my own "tug'n'tighten" as they call it in the industry where you tug on a wire terminal to see if it will yank out, if OK still tighten the screw.
Sometimes a "bad" assembler will be sloppy or weak and you have loose terminals here and there  :palm:
I've even just gone through older panels and found loose terminals, which I tighten all because I'll get blamed for any problems just because I was the last person in the cabinet.


Boeing has unhappy employees, for years now, they post on Reddit. Why they can't tighten a bolt:

- Shift away from engineering focused leadership
- Little to no training for literally months and months.
    - People thrown into roles with no guidance whatsoever
-New hires training new hires
-New hires responsible for roles above their grade
-Massive amounts of turnover leading to major brain drain
-Bad RTO (Return to Office) policy
-Email chains 30 emails long of people asking questions and nobody having the answers or knowing who to even ask
-Compensation is below competitors
-Cutting benefits

It sounds like the culture there is a disaster  :(
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #81 on: January 09, 2024, 04:39:16 am »
So true, keeping your people happy and engaged is so important.
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #82 on: January 09, 2024, 07:21:48 am »
NTSB admitted that the guide tracks on the located door plug were broken and that bolts to retain this plug *may* have been missing.

A reporter during the meeting asked them a sharp question: if you can’t trust Boeing to place and tight these bolts can you trust them with the rest of the bolts in the plane?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2024, 09:39:32 am by PartialDischarge »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #83 on: January 09, 2024, 09:04:08 am »
"Across the five {it's now ten} aircraft, there is little consistency in the locations of the errant parts..."
Gulp- loose fasteners all over the place in the door, surely all the others are tight {engine falls off}  :palm:

In the late 60s/early 70s a 707 was discovered with only 75% of the required bolts securing an engine to the wing. After 9 months :)

IIRC there was a heavy landing in Tunisia, sufficiently heavy that the control tower radioed to ask if the captain needed assistance. (?Perhaps a local engineer refused to certify the plane was safe?). "Sub-optimality" was discovered during full maintenance 9 months later.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2024, 10:45:46 am by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #84 on: January 09, 2024, 09:59:08 am »
So I have no clue on this. Passengers will probably sue, i understand.

Will the airlines ask Boeing for compensation?

Who will management blame?

 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #85 on: January 09, 2024, 10:29:00 am »
Alaska Air:


Terrible safety recorde. Recall the unlubed elevator jack screw causing the total loss , uncontrollable dive Alaska Air 261 MD-80 in 2000?
https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-price-of-an-hour-the-crash-of-alaska-airlines-flight-261-c797a7c3d90d

Boeing: Usual history after the MBAs replace the Engineers.

Calchoun is the worst. Move t CHI, outsource (including hull and wng fab)
https://news.wttw.com/2022/05/05/boeing-will-move-its-headquarters-dc-area-chicago
https://www.boeing.com/company/bios/david-l-calhoun.page



If its a Boeing...I AINT GOING!

j
« Last Edit: January 10, 2024, 10:25:24 am by jonpaul »
Jean-Paul  the Internet Dinosaur
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #86 on: January 09, 2024, 10:33:47 am »
Lower hinge mount to door, upper bolts found loose as well but not on this aircraft.

A colleague pointed out to me that there are witness marks all over the bolts, which suggests the possibility of overtightening by someone, and then later loosening.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #87 on: January 09, 2024, 11:12:55 am »
Well fingers will be pointed at assembler, the integrator and the manufacturer, plus the suppliers of the sub assemblies.  But the blame from the FAA will land on the one who stuck the nameplate on the fuselage, because they are the ones who signed off on it. Loose bolts, missing ones, are not something you want to find on an airframe that is still under warranty, though there are still way too many instances of poor assembly, especially electrical wiring, where IIRC one instance was a mistake in the fire suppression wiring, where firing the bottles resulted in the working engine being snuffed, because the wiring was crossed to the bottles, and another where the fire indicators showed the wrong engine being on fire.
 

Offline Ian.M

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #88 on: January 09, 2024, 11:18:31 am »
Its too early for anyone outside the investigation team to be certain, but it certainly smells like an assembly/maintenance f---up similar to the BA5390 windscreen failure back in 1990.  That was wrong size fasteners - #8-32 bolts in #10-32 holes!  See pages 36 to 41 of the PDF of the official report [here].
 

Offline Homer J Simpson

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #89 on: January 09, 2024, 01:14:38 pm »

 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #90 on: January 09, 2024, 05:20:45 pm »
Lower hinge mount to door, upper bolts found loose as well but not on this aircraft.

A colleague pointed out to me that there are witness marks all over the bolts, which suggests the possibility of overtightening by someone, and then later loosening.

I sure does seem like a human error.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #91 on: January 09, 2024, 05:31:14 pm »
Well fingers will be pointed at assembler, the integrator and the manufacturer, plus the suppliers of the sub assemblies.  But the blame from the FAA will land on the one who stuck the nameplate on the fuselage, because they are the ones who signed off on it. Loose bolts, missing ones, are not something you want to find on an airframe that is still under warranty, though there are still way too many instances of poor assembly, especially electrical wiring, where IIRC one instance was a mistake in the fire suppression wiring, where firing the bottles resulted in the working engine being snuffed, because the wiring was crossed to the bottles, and another where the fire indicators showed the wrong engine being on fire.

So the company gets fined, the guy that physically did the deed has to live with it, and the guy at top gets a 20 million dollar
severance package.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #92 on: January 09, 2024, 06:21:15 pm »
Corporations are an ongoing, big problem - Priority #1 is "max" profit.
It's perfectly OK to make shoddy product - until people get hurt or killed enough to point a finger.
Even then, it's some fines, legal fees, throw Mr. Assembler under the bus, exec's get their bonus. Wall Street has it all priced in, great opportunity to buy.
I can't see this modus operandi changing.

The NTSB update today was very well done, professional despite journalists clearly not understanding how the door plug (or a bolt lol) works, and bombarding them with stupid questions, cockamamie theories as to why this happened.
The penny drops "these investigations take 12-18 months to complete".

I did see the one bottom bracket (left on the plane) was no longer bolted to the frame, matching the loose bolt on the United plane.
I think there should be a flat washer, the piece has a slot which of course does not work with a lockwasher because it gets crushed inside the slot.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ntsb/53450362798/in/album-72177720313904488/
 
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Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #93 on: January 09, 2024, 07:56:01 pm »
The NTSB update today was very well done, professional despite journalists clearly not understanding how the door plug (or a bolt lol) works, and bombarding them with stupid questions, cockamamie theories as to why this happened.
The penny drops "these investigations take 12-18 months to complete".

The CAA etc decided a few years back that regular updates of information they find reduces the amount of made up expert crap that gets flung about in these situations. A void of information is where the expert gets thier best opportunity to spread fear.

Going to the bolts thing. There should be a paper trail to figure out the issues. It could be related to bolt or nut production, or even torque wrench being outside if spec. From the experience I have there should be plenty of info about who did what and what tools where used and what else those tools have been used on. But first I guess they need time to see how many are effected and use that data to help find a common cause. Just not a good day for Boeing, then again I can imagine the crowing that would be happening if it was any manufacturer outside the USA. The MAX has has become infamous.
Motorcyclist, Nerd, and I work in a Calibration Lab :-)
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So everyone is clear, Calibration = Taking Measurement against a known source, Verification = Checking Calibration against Specification, Adjustment = Adjusting the unit to be within specifications.
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2024, 09:46:04 pm »
Could this accident become a “Comet” moment for Boeing, for which De Havilland never recovered?

I am NOT saying that the failures are similar or related. What I mean is that Boeing, which was already lagging behind Airbus, will see its commercial passenger business eroding further to the point of no return?
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2024, 09:57:15 pm »
Could this accident become a “Comet” moment for Boeing, for which De Havilland never recovered?

I am NOT saying that the failures are similar or related. What I mean is that Boeing, which was already lagging behind Airbus, will see its commercial passenger business eroding further to the point of no return?

Sprint was spun out of Boeing partly so they could use their for competencies for other manufacturers Thus they also make structures for Airbus and Bombadier.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #96 on: January 09, 2024, 09:58:51 pm »
I think Boeing is "too big to fail".  The US government will ensure that much.  However, it's certainly possible it will harm their passenger aviation business.  I do wonder if they will leave the narrow-body jet market in the longer term and focus on Dreamliner, 767 and so on; this would be bad for competition but might leave room for e.g. Embraer to fill the gap.  Shame that Bombadier's CS jet just got absorbed into the A220 really as that would have broken the oligopoly between Boeing and Airbus.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #97 on: January 09, 2024, 09:59:44 pm »
If any other 737 max model has issues on the emergency exit doors, call the Grim Reaper. I think it's still a powder keg.
Lion Air has three Max 9's and is inspecting, India found a missing washer on a rudder, doors OK.

This is a multi-billion dollar industry. Ryanair (Ireland) has $40B orders for 300 737 Max. 10  :palm:

Boeing is impotent, they can't make a new plane. The penalties for late delivery is all they care about.
Look at the delays and losses over the KC-46 stratotanker.
edit: added ryanair link
« Last Edit: January 10, 2024, 04:25:12 am by floobydust »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #98 on: January 09, 2024, 10:58:39 pm »
The passenger aviation business is already severely damaged, starting with the covid period and getting more and more dents due to the rising costs, and a clear political goal to limit commercial passenger flights in the future.

And keep in mind Boeing fired a large number of employees in the past few years. It may have helped them cut their losses but I doubt it's going to help them make better planes.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #99 on: January 09, 2024, 10:59:11 pm »
Juan is great.

 
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