Stock Electronic Image FAILS

[MrMobodies]

Seems to be real, taken in a Jeep Gladiator. Here's another one:
https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/software-update-in-progress%E2%80%A6.73872/

I guess you can drive the car without the rear camera, radio etc., it's just not recommended. Although it could trigger interesting discussions if you get into an accident while driving against the system's advice.

Can't suddenly use it... absolutely pathetic. How about the system does not do an update willy nilly remotely when the manufacturer feels like it to prevent causing accidents when the vehicle is most likely is in use.

Since when was it acceptable to interrupt car owners as it if was an emergency for non emergency procedures.

[McBryce]

Not a stock fail, but an overall fail of the entire electronic car system...
(Disclaimer: I got this from the interwebs, so there is a slight chance this is doctored).

Seems to be real, taken in a Jeep Gladiator. Here's another one:
https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/software-update-in-progress%E2%80%A6.73872/

I guess you can drive the car without the rear camera, radio etc., it's just not recommended. Although it could trigger interesting discussions if you get into an accident while driving against the system's advice.

The discussion would be short. There's no law in any country that legally requires any of these devices to be present, nor a law that says you can't ignore them anyway.

McBryce.

[Ranayna]

Not a stock fail, but an overall fail of the entire electronic car system...
(Disclaimer: I got this from the interwebs, so there is a slight chance this is doctored).

Seems to be real, taken in a Jeep Gladiator. Here's another one:
https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/software-update-in-progress%E2%80%A6.73872/

I guess you can drive the car without the rear camera, radio etc., it's just not recommended. Although it could trigger interesting discussions if you get into an accident while driving against the system's advice.

The discussion would be short. There's no law in any country that legally requires any of these devices to be present, nor a law that says you can't ignore them anyway.

McBryce.

I wouldn't be so sure, especially in germany.
We cannot just willy-nilly modify our cars, as you might know. Most (if not all) changes that are not supported by the manufacturer will need to be inspected by the TUV.

It's actually worse. I was not aware of this and just found this list of *required* assistance systems, that need to be present in any new car.
Link in german: https://www.tuev-nord.de/de/privatkunden/ratgeber-und-tipps/technik/fahrassistenzsysteme/
Especially the part about the "black box" speaks for itself.
Machine translated excerpt:

Black box
black box auto

The accident data memory is also called "event-related data recording (black box).

It stores the data immediately before, during and after a collision.

The data collected includes, among other things

    Speed
    Brakes
    Position
    Inclination and
    Data from the eCall system.

Recording and storage are anonymised on the basis of data protection and may be made available to national authorities for the purpose of accident research.

This assistance system cannot be deactivated and must be installed in both partly and fully autonomous vehicles.

 
What is a black box in the car and what is it used for?

    The Event Data Recorder (EDR) records various vehicle data in the car.
    These include speed, braking behavior, acceleration, steering angle, airbag activation and other relevant information.
    This data is used to perform accident analyses, identify the causes of accidents and contribute to improving vehicle safety.

 
How does the black box for the car work?

    The accident data storage constantly records the data of the car.
    With normal drive, this information is deleted every second.
    If a collision occurs, it is registered via the sensors and the data is stored locally by the black box within a time frame of five seconds before and 300 milliseconds after the accident.
    This information can be read out with appropriate tools, which are connected either via the OBD interface or directly to the airbag control unit.
    This allows the data storage to support the determinants in the reconstruction of the accidental course
    The police do not have automatic access to the black box.
    As a rule, the driver must agree to the readout or a court has to arrange an order in the course of proceedings.

 
Who has access to the data of the black box in the car?

    The data stored by the Event Data Recorder basically belongs to the vehicle holding, i.e. you.
    However, interest in prosecution is usually more important than individual data protection in the event of an accident involving seriously injured or dead.
    The data of the black box in the car may only be read out by an accident expert with judicial approval.
    The police do not have automatic access to the black box. As a rule, the driver must agree to the readout or a court has to arrange an order in the course of proceedings.

 
Can the black box be disabled in the car?

The black box cannot be deactivated and must be installed in both partly and fully autonomous vehicles.

 
What are the advantages of the Black Box duty in the car?

Safety: The black box provides a detailed recording of accidents, which allows for accurate reconstruction in the event of an incident.

Efficiency: By analyzing vehicle data, problems can be identified and corrected at an early stage, resulting in improved vehicle performance.

Transparency: You gain insights into your own driving behaviour and can thus optimise your driving habits to increase safety and save fuel.

 
How secure is the data stored by the Black Box in the car?

    The data is usually encrypted and cannot easily be read or manipulated by unauthorized persons.
    Access to this data requires special tools and authorization, usually through legal or insurance requirements.
    The security of this data is also regulated by law and privacy policies to ensure privacy and the protection of personal information.
    The Black Box merely collects technical data of the vehicle and does not collect any personal information about the driver or the occupants.

 
Can I retrofit a black box in the car?

Yes, it is possible to retrofit a black box into a car.

In this case, contact a workshop to ensure that the Event Data Recorder is properly installed and complies with the applicable regulations.

 
Conclusion on the Black Box

The Black Box obligation for new cars  is an important step towards improving road safety. It helps to better understand accidents, identify the causes and ultimately make the driving experience safer for everyone.

[McBryce]

Not a stock fail, but an overall fail of the entire electronic car system...
(Disclaimer: I got this from the interwebs, so there is a slight chance this is doctored).

Seems to be real, taken in a Jeep Gladiator. Here's another one:
https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/software-update-in-progress%E2%80%A6.73872/

I guess you can drive the car without the rear camera, radio etc., it's just not recommended. Although it could trigger interesting discussions if you get into an accident while driving against the system's advice.

The discussion would be short. There's no law in any country that legally requires any of these devices to be present, nor a law that says you can't ignore them anyway.

McBryce.

I wouldn't be so sure, especially in germany.
We cannot just willy-nilly modify our cars, as you might know. Most (if not all) changes that are not supported by the manufacturer will need to be inspected by the TUV.

It's actually worse. I was not aware of this and just found this list of *required* assistance systems, that need to be present in any new car.
Link in german: https://www.tuev-nord.de/de/privatkunden/ratgeber-und-tipps/technik/fahrassistenzsysteme/
Especially the part about the "black box" speaks for itself.
Machine translated excerpt:

Black box
black box auto

The accident data memory is also called "event-related data recording (black box).

It stores the data immediately before, during and after a collision.

The data collected includes, among other things

    Speed
    Brakes
    Position
    Inclination and
    Data from the eCall system.

Recording and storage are anonymised on the basis of data protection and may be made available to national authorities for the purpose of accident research.

This assistance system cannot be deactivated and must be installed in both partly and fully autonomous vehicles.

 
What is a black box in the car and what is it used for?

    The Event Data Recorder (EDR) records various vehicle data in the car.
    These include speed, braking behavior, acceleration, steering angle, airbag activation and other relevant information.
    This data is used to perform accident analyses, identify the causes of accidents and contribute to improving vehicle safety.

 
How does the black box for the car work?

    The accident data storage constantly records the data of the car.
    With normal drive, this information is deleted every second.
    If a collision occurs, it is registered via the sensors and the data is stored locally by the black box within a time frame of five seconds before and 300 milliseconds after the accident.
    This information can be read out with appropriate tools, which are connected either via the OBD interface or directly to the airbag control unit.
    This allows the data storage to support the determinants in the reconstruction of the accidental course
    The police do not have automatic access to the black box.
    As a rule, the driver must agree to the readout or a court has to arrange an order in the course of proceedings.

 
Who has access to the data of the black box in the car?

    The data stored by the Event Data Recorder basically belongs to the vehicle holding, i.e. you.
    However, interest in prosecution is usually more important than individual data protection in the event of an accident involving seriously injured or dead.
    The data of the black box in the car may only be read out by an accident expert with judicial approval.
    The police do not have automatic access to the black box. As a rule, the driver must agree to the readout or a court has to arrange an order in the course of proceedings.

 
Can the black box be disabled in the car?

The black box cannot be deactivated and must be installed in both partly and fully autonomous vehicles.

 
What are the advantages of the Black Box duty in the car?

Safety: The black box provides a detailed recording of accidents, which allows for accurate reconstruction in the event of an incident.

Efficiency: By analyzing vehicle data, problems can be identified and corrected at an early stage, resulting in improved vehicle performance.

Transparency: You gain insights into your own driving behaviour and can thus optimise your driving habits to increase safety and save fuel.

 
How secure is the data stored by the Black Box in the car?

    The data is usually encrypted and cannot easily be read or manipulated by unauthorized persons.
    Access to this data requires special tools and authorization, usually through legal or insurance requirements.
    The security of this data is also regulated by law and privacy policies to ensure privacy and the protection of personal information.
    The Black Box merely collects technical data of the vehicle and does not collect any personal information about the driver or the occupants.

 
Can I retrofit a black box in the car?

Yes, it is possible to retrofit a black box into a car.

In this case, contact a workshop to ensure that the Event Data Recorder is properly installed and complies with the applicable regulations.

 
Conclusion on the Black Box

The Black Box obligation for new cars  is an important step towards improving road safety. It helps to better understand accidents, identify the causes and ultimately make the driving experience safer for everyone.

I would be sure, because it's my job. Vehicle requirements in Europe are documented and freely available. For example, UN-ECE-R48 documents the legal lighting requirements, from position, size, colour, brightness, distance apart, right down to how fast the indicator should flash. Functions are also defined by ASIL (how critical they are for safety). It also defines what the vehicle is allowed to do if any function fails: Continue as normal but warn driver, limit vehicle speed or disable vehicle use. If the update was disabling any legally required safety related device the car would not drive. Otherwise the OEM would not have got type approval for the vehicle in the EU.
Customer modifications also have to adhere to these rules.

BTW: The EDR you've mentioned is only required for vehicles with a certain level of autonomous functionality. An L0 or L1 vehicle still doesn't need one.

McBryce.

[ebastler]

The discussion would be short. There's no law in any country that legally requires any of these devices to be present, nor a law that says you can't ignore them anyway.

Driving the car without using the assistance devices is not violating any laws per se, I'd assume. But let's say your car has a rearview camera, and was required to have one when it came to the market. You decide to drive it while the camera is inoperative, and run over a pedestrian while reversing the car. Wouldn't that possibly be considered negligence on your part?

(I don't know, and I certainly don't know for the US. Would it be considered negligence on the car manufacturer's part if they don't warn you against driving with the rearview camera out of order?) 

[McBryce]

The discussion would be short. There's no law in any country that legally requires any of these devices to be present, nor a law that says you can't ignore them anyway.

Driving the car without using the assistance devices is not violating any laws per se, I'd assume. But let's say your car has a rearview camera, and was required to have one when it came to the market. You decide to drive it while the camera is inoperative, and run over a pedestrian while reversing the car. Wouldn't that possibly be considered negligence on your part?

(I don't know, and I certainly don't know for the US. Would it be considered negligence on the car manufacturer's part if they don't warn you against driving with the rearview camera out of order?)

Rear view is covered by UN-ECE-R158 and the requirements are that:

"During a backing event at least one means of vision or awareness shall be provided to the driver.
Means of vision provide a close-proximity rear-view field of vision as defined in paragraph 15.2 below. Possible means are:
(a) Direct vision,
(b) Devices approved to UN Regulation No. 46,
(c) Close Proximity Rear-view Mirror complying with this Regulation,
(d) Rear-View Camera System complying with this Regulation.

ie: No requirement for it to be a camera. A mirror is good enough as long as some means of viewing rearwards is available. In fact, if the entire defined area of required rear view is visible without a mirror, then you can get approval without them on some classes of vehicle! As cars usually have mirrors as well as rear view cameras, the vehicle is perfectly legal to drive even if the camera fails completely.

McBryce.

[ebastler]

ie: No requirement for it to be a camera. A mirror is good enough as long as some means of viewing rearwards is available. In fact, if the entire defined area of required rear view is visible without a mirror, then you can get approval without them on some classes of vehicle! As cars usually have mirrors as well as rear view cameras, the vehicle is perfectly legal to drive even if the camera fails completely.

That statement conflicts with many other sources which state that the US and Canada require backup cameras in new cars since 2018, and the EU requires either a camera or sensors since 2022. 

[McBryce]

ie: No requirement for it to be a camera. A mirror is good enough as long as some means of viewing rearwards is available. In fact, if the entire defined area of required rear view is visible without a mirror, then you can get approval without them on some classes of vehicle! As cars usually have mirrors as well as rear view cameras, the vehicle is perfectly legal to drive even if the camera fails completely.

That statement conflicts with many other sources which state that the US and Canada require backup cameras in new cars since 2018, and the EU requires either a camera or sensors since 2022. 

Yes, the US requires them since then, but "New" doesn't means a new car, it means new carlines that apply for type approval after that year and the approval application could be anything up to 2.5 years before the vehicle hits the market. The EU rules that apply today can all be found here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/DE/TXT/?uri=CELEX:42011X1206(03) and there's also a section somewhere there for new regulations that have been ratified, but have not yet come into effect. I know there's a whole bunch of amendments that come into effect in 2024 and 2026, but I don't know the details, maybe rear view cameras are a requirement in one of those?

So for example, if the current Ford Focus came out in 2024 and got it's approval in early 2022 and is sold until 2030, you could still buy a Focus in 2030 with no rearview camera and it would still be legal.

Not for this thread, but If you start a thread on vehicle regulations, I could bore you to tears for years on the subject. R48 (regulations for vehicle lighting) alone is around 200 pages long.

McBryce.

[Gyro]

Where have the vaguely amusing images gone?

[Kim Christensen]

Here's a DIY "pencil" iron... Screenshot below so you can avoid watching the video:

[SteveThackery]

My first reaction was a profanity, but perhaps I'll just say "Oh my goodness!" followed by a face-palm.

I don't think it will be usable - the wood is going to start smoking in seconds.  Solder won't wet graphite, so it'll be challenging to get enough thermal conductivity with the joint.  Etc, etc, blah, blah.....

[Fungus]

The discussion would be short. There's no law in any country that legally requires any of these devices to be present

Yes there are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backup_camera

[NiHaoMike]

Here's a DIY "pencil" iron... Screenshot below so you can avoid watching the video:

Looks like a crappy DIY copy of the already crappy "cold heat" iron back in the day.

[PlainName]

Looks like a crappy DIY copy of the already crappy "cold heat" iron back in the day.

That one worked, whereas this one doesn't. Sure, he is melting solder but it is melting onto the wire. The tip doesn't gets hot, and even the section that is conducting current doesn't seem to do any better.

[CatalinaWOW]

Looks like a crappy DIY copy of the already crappy "cold heat" iron back in the day.

That one worked, whereas this one doesn't. Sure, he is melting solder but it is melting onto the wire. The tip doesn't gets hot, and even the section that is conducting current doesn't seem to do any better.

Worked is a very generous assessment of the original.  I did get a few actually solder joints with it.  But mostly just melted solder on wire.  For anything much thicker than 22 gauge.

[McBryce]

The discussion would be short. There's no law in any country that legally requires any of these devices to be present

Yes there are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backup_camera

Ok, I stand corrected. It is a legal requirement in the US and Canada now. I'd be interested to know what fallbacks are allowed if the system fails though. Unfortunately it's not mentioned in any documents I've found so far.

McBryce.

[NiHaoMike]

What's wrong with that picture?

[TimFox]

Math is hard.

[cosmicray]

What's wrong with that picture?

Sounds fine for a welding system, but the wire size may be an issue.

[magic]

It's PMPO current under short circuit conditions. Maybe exaggerated by a factor of 10.
Typical Chinese marketing

[McBryce]

(Attachment Link)
What's wrong with that picture?

Finally. Over unity! Eureka!

McBryce.

[Kim Christensen]

What's wrong with that picture?

They forgot the m in mA.

[m k]

What's wrong with that picture?

Holes are rectangles and too far apart.

[themadhippy]

What's wrong with that picture?

The wires hanging down so all the electrons are going to fall out

[Seekonk]

A new take on touch safe connectors.