Author Topic: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices  (Read 3319 times)

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Offline migry

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Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« on: September 23, 2020, 08:04:47 pm »
Gutted, hit some key combo and lost all my text!!!!  >:(  >:(  >:(   :palm: Now to start over again.

Quite some time ago just as RoHS was coming into force, some bright spark had the idea to throw out all leaded components from the lab (where I worked at the time) into the skip, where it would go straight to landfill. Sort of ironic really. The whole point of RoHS was to prevent this kind of hazardous waste going to landfill!

Luckily I got wind of this and managed to rescue some rails of ICs before they were thrown away. I also got my hands on a couple of EPROM/PAL programmers and an EPROM eraser.

Recently I have got into retro compuiter projects. I have been playing with different FPGAs. I recently designed some 68000 CPU boards and used GALs for the first time. As mentioned in other threads I used WinCUPL without too much bother, and one of my (rescued) programmers supports GALs.

At that time some of the devices rescued were MAX7000 devices. These are older devices that DO NOT support programming via JTAG. These are 5V devices and it would be really useful to use them in some future projects. I have 8 EPM7128s, and lots of EPM7064 and EPM7032's. See attached picture.

Unfortunately my programmer only supports the JTAG version of these devices, and even then requires an adapter board, which I do not have and cannot find any information about.

Now I am sure some of you will be telling me to sell these devices and buy some JTAG compliant versions and use the Altera Byte Blaster. Good advice, but since these devices were FOC I really would like to use them.

I have searched the internet and cannot find any programming information for these (non-JTAG) devices. I realise it is quite common for manufacturers to keep this information confidential, perhaps they make money by selling the algoritms to programmer manufacturers? I did tweet Intel, but they didn't bite, and I got no reply.

What to do?

I could buy a new programmer, but these cost around $1000, so this is of no interest, not for a few devices....perhaps if I didn't already have a programmer.

I did have a crazy idea, but perhaps someone can suggest a better way...

There is an excellent site http://matthieu.benoit.free.fr/ which has loads of information about various EPROM/FLASH/PAL/GAL/MICRO programmers. There is even a few hints about the pins used for programming the MAX7000 devices.

So if I could run some old Win95 or DOS software for one of these old programmers which supports the non-JTAG MAX7000 devices under Linux Wine (?), then perhaps I could trace the I/O writes to whatever parallel ports and use it to figure out which pins of the programmer are been driven. Forgot to mention that for at least for one programmer there are reverse engineered schematics. Does anyone think that this can be made to work? Can you trace I/O writes in some way using Wine?

Anyway time to post before I accidently delete it again
--migry
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2020, 07:23:51 pm »
Now I am sure some of you will be telling me to sell these devices and buy some JTAG compliant versions and use the Altera Byte Blaster. Good advice, but since these devices were FOC I really would like to use them.

I thought the ByteBlaster, ByteBlaster II, and ByteBlaster MV did support all versions of the MAX7000, as well as the even older MAX3000 series.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 07:26:06 pm by BrianHG »
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Offline bingo600

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2020, 07:42:14 pm »
Wasn't there something about , if jtag was disabled and protection set on a 7000.
Then you'd need a special (expensive) programmer to reset it.

/Bingo
 

Offline migry

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2020, 08:40:59 pm »
I just googled and found an Intel(Altera) document.

https://www.thailand.intel.com/content/dam/www/programmable/us/en/pdfs/literature/ug/ug_bbii.pdf

In a table of supported devices:-

MAX 7000S devices - 5V (this has a JTAG port)
MAX 7000AE (this has a JTAG port) and MAX 3000A (not familiar with this device) devices - 3.3V

The Byte Blaster has only a few pins so cannot do the "parallel" programming, but it does have enough pins for JTAG connections.

Quote
Wasn't there something about , if jtag was disabled and protection set on a 7000.
Then you'd need a special (expensive) programmer to reset it.

Apparently if some kind a security fuse is programmed on the JTAG devices, then the devices cannot be erased by means of the JTAG connector.

I am looking to build in  some way a cheap version of the "expensive" programmer.

--migry
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2020, 08:42:23 pm »
They support JTAG and could be programmed with the bit blaster, byte blaster and master blaster.

See the following data sheet:
https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/programmable/us/en/pdfs/literature/ds/archives/m7000.pdf
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2020, 08:48:05 pm »
The security bit doesn't prevent reprogramming.  Actually, that's how you clear it.   I started out making my own programmer.  I think they published the design for one of their early programmers.     
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2020, 08:49:53 pm »
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline migry

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2020, 10:02:20 pm »
My devices are NOT the "S" (5V) or "AE" (3.3V) types.

My devices are older MAX7000 which do NOT have JTAG.

In front of me I have an EPM7032LC44-10 and a EPM7032VLC44-12 (I think that this is a 3.3V device - but can't recall).

Quote
The security bit doesn't prevent reprogramming.  Actually, that's how you clear it.   I started out making my own programmer.  I think they published the design for one of their early programmers.

While googling I found several postings saying that JTAG parts which had the security bit set could not be re-programmed using JTAG, because the security bit had to be reset using a "parallel" type programmer. I took this are read. In any case my parts are not JTAG so I need to make some kind of parallel programmer.

I discovered that my devices did not have JTAG having built a board and hooked up a USB Blaster clone, and found that it did nothing. The datasheet revealed to my disappointment that my devices did not have JTAG.

You design and references will be helpful for those who already have or who buy the JTAG compatiable MAX7000 devices.

--migry
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2020, 10:22:00 pm »
I'll check my stash of old parts and databooks and get back with you. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2020, 10:54:33 pm »
Not long ago I was planning to use some of these devices and bought an UP2 board and ByteBlaster.  Worked fine.

https://mil.ufl.edu/4712/altera_UP_board_info.html

In the end I don't think I will use this part because all the ones I got from China seem to be fake.   :(
 

Offline migry

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2020, 11:30:17 pm »
Not long ago I was planning to use some of these devices and bought an UP2 board and ByteBlaster.  Worked fine.

In the end I don't think I will use this part because all the ones I got from China seem to be fake.    :(

I followed the link and found information about the JTAG programmers, which I am already familiar with. They unfortunately DO NOT program the parts which I have :-(

Are you aware that the MAX7000 devices come in several different flavours?
Some are 5V and some are 3.3V
The newer ones can be programmed over JTAG (a simple industry standard interface and protocol widely used to program and test ICs) using a Byte Blaster.

BTW I use JTAG a lot in my work, so have a deep understanding of this interface and its use.

The older ones CANNOT be programmed using JTAG as the internal circuity does not exist inside the older parts. They require a "parallel" programmer to control a number of pins and a high voltage must be applied to one pin, sort of like an EPROM programmer. From the information I have been able to find it appears that the parts have one or more shift registers and some other miscellaneous pins whose purpose I do not understand. Intel/Altera are keeping this information confidential.

Perhaps you bought the NON JTAG devices, which CANNOT be programmed using the ByteBlaster which you have. Could it be that the devices are not actualy fake, but are simply not the JTAG type? Can you post the full device ID or post a picture of the top of one of your devices? This will allow us to confirm - or not!

--migry
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2020, 01:29:52 am »
This is going way back.   It appears you need the Master Programming Unit PL-MPU with the LP6 ISA card.   I have not seen one of these in many years.   

http://www.ece.ualberta.ca/~elliott/ee552/AlteraDoc/maxplus2_getting_started.pdf

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ALTERA-MPU-MASTER-PROGRAMMING-UNIT-Full-PL-ASAP2-kit-LP6-programming-card/114416535210?hash=item1aa3c1c6aa:g:R5MAAOSwmcJd8Cvp
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2020, 09:55:34 am »
I'm sure there are many variants... this is the combo that worked for me...

[attachimg=1]
 

Offline migry

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2020, 11:30:54 am »
I'm sure there are many variants... this is the combo that worked for me...


Just to highlight to any readers (and please read the SUBJECT text) that I know that MAX7000  "S" devices CAN be programmed with the USB blaster shown, however MY devices are not the "S" variant and DO NOT HAVE JTAG circuitry.

The device in the picture is marked EPM7128SLC84-S, so it is clearly a "S" device and is therefore capable of being programmed using the USB Blaster clone shown in the picture, because the "S" devices DO have JTAG internal circuitry.

My problem, for which I search a solution, is that I need to program devices which I have, which are NOT "S" devices and cannot be programmed in the way your picture shows.

Neverthess for anyone who has the "S" type parts, you have confirmed that the common and cheap USB Blaster clone can program these (the "S") devices.

--migry
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 11:32:48 am by migry »
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2020, 11:44:45 am »
Another option may be a generic programmer.  I have an old EETOOLS programmer that supports both devices.  It requires two adaptors which would cost about $250, if you could find them.  Have you checked to see if any of the new low cost programmers support it? 

Some of the older parts I used also did not use JTAG but rather the passive serial mode, which could still be programmed using their more common programmers. That doesn't help you except that the lack of JTAG isn't really a good indicator, so much at the part numbers.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline migry

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2020, 11:47:09 am »
This is going way back.   It appears you need the Master Programming Unit PL-MPU with the LP6 ISA card.   I have not seen one of these in many years.   

http://www.ece.ualberta.ca/~elliott/ee552/AlteraDoc/maxplus2_getting_started.pdf

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ALTERA-MPU-MASTER-PROGRAMMING-UNIT-Full-PL-ASAP2-kit-LP6-programming-card/114416535210?hash=item1aa3c1c6aa:g:R5MAAOSwmcJd8Cvp

OK @joeqsmith, thank you for the pointers.

I do have the physical MAX7000 databooks (remember them?), but I do not have the MAX-PLUS II databook, now downloaded from your link to the PDF.

I actually intend to use Quartus to generate the code for the MAX7000 devices (if I can solve the programming problem) using a POF compiled from Verilog.

I was also aware of the old programmer type shown in the Ebay link, however I do not want to spend $2000 to buy an old ISA card. H-ll I don't even have any old ISA motherboards anymore, they were all thrown out long ago (and ironically and nowe worth lots of $$$).

There are still (multi device) programmers which can be bought new and which do support these MAX7000 devices (JTAG and non-JTAG modes of programming), but they cost at least $1000.  As I mentioned, if I didn't already have a flexible EPROM/FLASH/EEPROM/MICRO programmer (FYI - LV48 Speedmaster), then I would have considered buying such an expensive programmer. I have been using the LV48 quite often recently to program EPROMS and GALs. It connects to the parallel port of my old XP machine and the DOS based GUI runs under Win-XP without problems.

--migry
 

Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2020, 01:05:31 pm »
I have 8 EPM7128s
Apologies I read s as S.  8)
 

Offline migry

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2020, 01:46:32 pm »
I have 8 EPM7128s
Apologies I read s as S.  8)

Sorry! My bad! The "EPM7218s" was a plural. I didn't even think that this might be mis-read! I should have written "I have 8 EPM7128's".

--migry
 

Offline westfw

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2020, 09:36:24 am »
Did you find any modern development software for these?  I also have a bunch, as a result of dumpster-diving.(mine were in a proper w-waste bin, at least.)
You can find the old Quartus v9.1 Altera software that is supposedly the last official release that supports these, but ... it look painfully ancient :-(
See also  https://hackaday.com/2016/02/04/a-better-way-to-plug-a-cpld-into-a-breadboard/
 

Offline migry

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2020, 01:50:05 pm »
Did you find any modern development software for these?  I also have a bunch, as a result of dumpster-diving.(mine were in a proper w-waste bin, at least.)
You can find the old Quartus v9.1 Altera software that is supposedly the last official release that supports these, but ... it look painfully ancient :-(

Thank you for this information.

I have Quartus 13.0sp1 loaded on my Win10 machine, so I tried to create a simple counter design project. I found that there were several MAX7000 EPM7032 devices which could be selected, but I noted that these were all the JTAG types. I was able to create a POF, but I am now guessing that this POF uses the JTAG serial mode of programming, so will be of no use to me.

So I then tried to find the old Quartus v9.1 on the Intel site. Well guess what - you can select it, but cannot download it. Thanks Intel! Thanks for NOT supporting thje maker community or anyone using old parts!

I tried googling, but I was unable to find an this old version anywhere else.

So @westfw (and any others) do you still have the install .EXE for this old version of Quartus?

--migry
 

Offline migry

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2020, 02:16:46 pm »
So I initially mentioned a possible method to find a way to program these old non-JTAG devices.

So I was intrigued by the amazing information on the http://matthieu.benoit.free.fr website.

There is a page dedicated to an old Hi-Lo programmer called the ALL03, which appears to be able to program the  non-JTAG EPM7032 (and similar) devices. It even shows the schematic of the adapter which is needed, but amazingly it gives pin names of what appear to be the programming pins for this device (SDINA, SDOUTA, BE, BEM, SCK, SK, ...etc...). I can find no reference to these names elsewhere. It also shows which ALL03 channels each pin of the EPM7032 connects to. There is also the specific .EXE which is needed to program these devices. It is a very straight forward design of programmer. It needs an ISA card which uses only 2 addresses. Inside the programmer lots of 74LS273 8-bit latches are used to latch the data from the PC ISA card which in turn allow pins to be driven and read back and voltages such as Vcc and Vpp to be connected to appropriate pins. There are 3 DACs which generate 3 sets of high voltages (Vcc, Vpp and other).

So since I had DOSBOX on my PC I tried running the software. It ran! The GUI was the old DOS type character graphics, which to be honest allowed really nice (low res) GUIs to be constructed, thanks to the IBM PC character set.

So I wondered if I could modify DOSBOX to allow me to trace writes to and reads from the two I/O addresses.

To cut a long story short, I downloaded the sources for DOSBOX-X onto my Ubuntu Linux VM, and was able to compile and run DOSBOX-X under Linux with relatively few problems. For other software you download, configure and compile under Linux I have had lots of problems. So kudos to the DOSBOX-X team.

I spent a good part of one day in the src/hardware folder looking at the various I/O devices (mainly sound cards) which arre supported. I started to get an idea of how to intercept I/O writes and reads. I then copied the MPU401.cpp module and hacked it around to give a skeleton to log writes and reads to the two ALL03 ISA card ports. I needed to modify the Makefile and create a .Po file (no idea what this is - I just copied the mpu401.Po file!). Several hours of debugging later... I run the modified DOSBOX-X, fire up the MAX7000 .EXE (A70X.EXE), do some commands and look at the log. First problem was that the software was not seeing the programmer, however it was still apparently writing to the various registers. The programmer implements a PAL to decode the addresses of the various registers, but also contains a 4 bit state machine, the output of which can be read by the software, and this is seen in the logs. So again thanks to the same website, I found the PAL equations and added emulation of the PAL into the software. Finally no more complaints by the programming software. I am now emulating the SAC-201 PC ISA interface card, the various programmer I/O control registers, and the programmer PAL. Apparently the PAL is used to identify the prrogrammer hardware type, but might also have been some crude form of protection.

So now I can run the A70X.EXE software for the MAX7000 and generate a log. Unfortunately the pins used did not match those expected from the EPM7032 adapter pinout. I was aware that this version of software, while allowing different members of the family to be selected, did not have a choice for the EPM7032. More googling later and I found a website suggesting a different .EXE program name. More googling and I could not find it, until I looked in the folder of software downloaded from the above site and I found AMAX70.EXE . I now loaded the DOSBOX-X (with SAC-201 and ALL03 emulation) software and generated some new trace logs. This time the Vcc and Vpp pins mapped perfectly, and I was able to see toggling on the SCK pin and changes on the SDINA and SDINB pins (presumably serial data in). The software then tries to read back a serial value, which of course fails.

I have attached the log file with annotated EPM7032 pins.

More soon...

--migry
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 02:20:44 pm by migry »
 
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Offline abyrvalg

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2020, 05:26:27 pm »
What if you “just” route (in software) the pin accesses to some kind of GPIOs attached to a real MAX7k now?
 

Offline migry

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2020, 10:14:55 pm »
What if you “just” route (in software) the pin accesses to some kind of GPIOs attached to a real MAX7k now?

Aha! I also had a similar idea. Bear in mind that DOSBOX-X is already emulating not only software but hardware too. having said that it can read joysticks, so has a way to speak to the outside world. Otherwise I don't know how I would get DOSBOX-X to speak to real physical hardware (parallel port?).

For the time being I intend to simply record the stimulus as text (as shown) and then replay on an Arduino. There's stilla long way to go!

--migry
 

Offline migry

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2020, 09:15:05 pm »
Just to confirm that I am getting the expected values out of the DOSBOX-X emulator in the log file (as previously attached), I have written an emulator for a simple EPROM device. I chose the AMD Am2716. At (simulated) reset, the contents of the EPROM, defined as a byte array, are all set to 0xFF, i.e. the normal EPROM erased value.

After a few iterations I managed to get it to work.

This time in DOSBOX-X I run the main ALL03 programmer software, ACCESS.EXE (there might be other versions and names). I then select EPROM, then AMD, then Am2716 device, and the software loads and runs another module (called EPP512.EXE) which appears to be the EPROM specific software (just like AMAX70.EXE is the Altera EPM7032 specific module). I examine the buffer (start only) and see all zeroes. I then load the buffer from the emulated 2716. I then check the buffer and see that the values are now all 0xff. I then edit the first 16 bytes to 0x55. I then select program and ... success! What this means is that the value being programmed is used to update the array so when the EPROM is read back it has the new programmed value. I was able to examine the programmer pin log file to confirm what had happened. First good thing is that all the pins which toggle map correctly to the EPROM pins, i.e. pins 9 to 20 of the programmer (which correspond to pins 1 to 12 of the EPROM) are the ones which toggle, and I can see the address count. I note that when programming the whole EPROM is read and only the bytes which are not 0xff, are programmed (I don't know if this check is more intellegent - as long as an EPROM bit needed to be  zero is one, it can be changed, but 0 cannot be changed to a 1). I thought that Vpp was pulsed for each address, but actually it remains high during programming and readback of all locations. From earlier work I know that after applying the programming conditions (CE and OE) the EPROM is read back, and if the wanted value is not found, another attempt is made. Now after only the first attempt, the emulated EPROM has the right value, but interestingly, the programming software gives it one more "write" at the same address (just to be certain that this EPROM address is "firmly" programmed and not just marginal).

--migry
 
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Offline migry

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Re: Programming (non-JTAG) MAX7000 devices
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2020, 09:36:01 pm »
So I have a log of the EPM7032 sequence which the ALL03 programmer applies to the device to confirm its ID, which of course it fails to do.

So I have wired up a perf board with a PLCC44 socket, where each pins comes to a row of 44 turned pin header for connection. I then found a 5V Arduino, a Nano, which has more or less the required number of pins.

Yesterday. I was able to code the data from the previously posted file into the Arduino sketch in order to generate the waveforms that would be applied by the ALL03 programmer. I then hooked all the programming pins (thanks once again to the site http://matthieu.benoit.free.fr/ ) to pins of the Arduino. Turns out that "analogue" pins named A0 to A5 can be used as digital, but not A6 and A7 - guess which pin I used for a critical signal! I was able to confirm that when the Vpp pin was taken over about 11V the chip went into test mode and previously clamped shift in data now had no contention and was the right level. I scoped the 2 suspected shift out pins: SDOUTA and SDOUTB, and they had identical waveforms which were defintely the EPM7032 responding to the stimulus.

Today. I wanted to properly capture the response. I didn't quite have enough pins, so I moved some stuff around. Mistake  :( . When I raised Vpp from 5V to 12V (which was OK yesterday) I was getting current clamping on my PSU, and a burning smell  :-DD . After some messing around the lights (of  the Arduino went out). Oops! Turns out the min hub (to which the Nano was plugged on) no longer was lit. When tested elsewhere the min hub appeared to light up, and the Nano too. The hub connected to the back of my Dell monitor. The EPM7032 was very hot, and clearly I had blown it up. I eventually figured out that you must ONLY connect Vpp when a number of other inputs are grounded, and appear to put the device into a state where Vpp does not destroy the chip, however I am not 100% sure which pins are the critical ones.

So I ripped out all the wires from the Nano to the EPM7032 board connector and started again. After the usual debugging and discovery of swapped wires, I got the same waveforms on SDOUTA and SDOUTB as yesterday. I used my Rigol scope logic analyser to capture the waveforms (attached).

I also confrmed which pins become outputs and which inputs when Vpp puts the EPM7032 into "programming" mode.

NTPW - input
MTIN - input
SCK - input
SDINA - input
BE - input
BEM - input
SS - input
SBI - input
TM - input
A0 to A6 - input
SDINB - input
SK - input

Vpp - needs around 12V to put the device into test mode (but ONLY do this if the other pins have been set!)

SDOUTA - output
SDOUTB - output
SCOA - output
SCOB - output

--migry
 
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